Wii Uses Elliptic Curve Cryptography For Saves 183
An anonymous reader writes "A user at the Nintendo-Scene forums just posted a lengthy post about his discovery that the Wii savegame files are signed and encrypted with NIST B 233 bit elliptic curve cryptography. Could this be the first step for a Wii softmod the homebrew community have waited for? From the post: 'It appears a Wii savegame file ends with a certificate chain. The certificates contains a public keypair (the one that is being "certified") and a signature (another number pair) from the signing entity. The number pairs are stored as a compound 60 bit data (first 30 bytes for the first number, and the next 30 bytes for the second). Hence, the first and middle byte is always 00 or 01 for keys, and 00 for signatures. One can check that the keys are indeed NIST B 233 keys using openssls EC_KEY_check_key function (code forthcoming).'"
Elliptic Curve? (Score:5, Funny)
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WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
solution to the 'votes' problem (Score:2)
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Reason 1:
Because the manufacturer of a hardware/software product has more expertize in data protection and encryption than a bank owner does.
Reason 2:
In the first case, the vendor tries to protect itself and his assets. The incentive is strong.
In the second case, the vendor is supposed to protect their customers. The incentive is weaker.
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That said, I want t
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If the game save is encrypted, then the computer can check it's not been tampered with, and thus protect itself from buffer overflows in the data. Most of the copyright cracks on PS2 and Xbox were carried out by loading up bogus saved games.
They're protecting themselves.
You may not like the answer, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, it makes a sort of perverse sense. It's pretty easy to write bog-standard business applications that do CRUD (in both the database & other sense), but it's not so easy to program a game that has to run at acceptable frame rates.
Yet it may be evidence of a clue... (Score:2)
Using ECC, you're right, isn't that hard. Using ECC correctly is harder, but not that hard.
Mostly, it's rare. That's the part that gets me.
Given that I haven't seen too many using ECC, even though it has some cool properties like not
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
If, however, someone cheats with a gamesave, there is no official mechanism to deal with them, and so people would have to turn to vigilante justice to track down and deal with cheaters. That would be bad. Very bad. First, it would start out with roving gangs of gamers, seeking out and punishing the transgressors. Some might see them as heroes, but it would not last. Disagreements would arise over what is cheating, and what is acceptable modding.
This would finally lead to civil war, as the gaming world splits into two (or more!) factions fighting it out. As the gaming world goes, so goes civilization itself, and the new dark ages would be upon us.
Until the government gets off its ass and outlaws fiddling with gamesaves, all we have standing between us and the apocalypse are the game companies, and their gamesave cryptography.
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Clearly, our society has spoken as to which of these things is more important to prevent.
It seems to me... (Score:5, Informative)
That this likely means the exact opposite. Elliptic Curve Cryptography [wikipedia.org] is relatively difficult to crack (not unlike RSA). More to the point, it's also not liable to factorization attacks like RSA is. Furthermore, the best crack of elliptic curve technology is of a 109-bit key, and still took 3,600 [certicom.com] or 15,000 [certicom.com] computer-years (whether it's a binary or prime field case, respectively).
Nintendo's not stupid. They've used RSA encryption to keep the average hacker out of DS-wireless homebrew, and this is most likely a mandated response to the Splinter Cell hack that allowed soft modding on the Xbox. It won't stop hacking through security holes in the internet protocols (a-la PSO+BBA), but they're certainly making efforts to prevent corrupted data from opening up softmod paths.
Re:It seems to me... (Score:5, Informative)
But, particularly because of the recent confusion regarding ECC's resistance to quantum computing (that is, that it has none), I want to make sure people realize ECC isn't any stronger than RSA. Sure, you get shorter keys and faster computations with ECC versus RSA, but for all practical purposes if/when RSA falls, ECC will go down with it. Factorization algorithms usually lead to discrete log algorithms, and vice versa. That's certainly the case with Shor's algorithm, which probably should have been made clear when the quantum computing article was posted.
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http://groups.google.com/group/sci.crypt/browse_thread/thread/d096e5e93192f176/6e0e62f174f8a9e3 [google.com]
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While it is not liable to factorization attacks (Score:2)
PSO's security hole was an anti-cheating back door (Score:2)
Of course, Sega didn't sign that downloaded code, which is why it worked.
Regarding this savega
Great, now about the next step. (Score:4, Insightful)
The next step will be to search for an exploit in the console or in a game that allows execution of that data. The final step is to figure out how to get that newly loaded code to do something useful. I know this has been done before, but I'm under the impression that the exploit (in a 007 game) was found by chance. After that lucky break, the code-something-useful part came very fast.
Is there any way to search for such an exploit other than brute force testing of games? Are there things to look for that normal players might see, or do you have to just try to execute code over and over and over in various situations, hoping to find a hole? In short, how can I, a non-programmer, help?
I have hundreds of SNES and NES carts. I would love to be able to run those games on the Wii without having to buy them a second time or wait for N to trickle them out. Now if I can just hack together some Wii wireless SNES and NES pads, I'll be in heaven.
PS (Score:2)
It's just too bad that there isn't some way to compromise to allow a Wii "sandbox" to play around and develop in without allowing full fledged piracy. Maybe a modified (i.e. slightly crippled to prevent full piracy) Wii dev-kit open to all for a reasonable cost?
Just throwing the idea out there
*I know getting past the encryption will be no easy task, and may not be feasible at all
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Console programming can get fairly low level and having the experience of working with the hardware as opposed to APIs can be a good experience for those who want it. Look at devkitARM for instance.
And devkitPPC. Buy a GameCube, a boot disc, and an SD card; then you can experiment in an environment quite similar to that of the Wii. I was just confused as to whether Neuticle wanted to develop for the Wii for the sake of developing for a console, or whether (s)he wanted to develop for a system that uses its controller. Both a PC + Wii Remote and a GameCube + boot disc qualify as Neuticle's "modified (i.e. slightly crippled to prevent full piracy) Wii dev-kit", but in different ways.
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As for the Gamecube, you wouldn't have the Wii remote at all (unless there is some interface I'm not aware of). That pretty much kills it if you want to play around with Wii remotes.
For the PC: has the sensor bar been successfully interfaced? If not then the interface is still broken. Even then, you could have a lot of fun messing around with a Wii remote and Bluetooth PC. But you're tied to a PC, and it's my understanding
Tied to a PC, or tied to a GameCube (Score:2)
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with older wii's you can use very cheap modchips(wiikey clones are under ten bucks a piece)..
so a softm
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Have you seen Nintendo's "Classic controller" that they offer (primarily for the virtual console games)? It looks a little odd, but after you start using it, you'll realize that it's really an SNES controller with some analog sticks thrown on at the bottom (and two extra "shoulder" buttons). Also, it plugs into the wii-remote, so I consider it semi-wireless.
Anyways, definately my favourite controller ever, so you should give it a try, if you haven't ye
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As an extra bonus, they could also be used on a PC with emulators (if I'm remembering correctly)
I know the NES, SNES and Genesis controllers were done, but do you
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In my experience, you have to return the joystick close to center to click reliably, which is asinine, and the tactile response is poor and uneven.
What makes it worse is the way they are implemented. I hate it when a game requires a click in a context where you are already using the joystick for aiming or movement (Like zooming in). The only worse sin is when a click makes you do something you really don't want to do, like lie down.
I've curse over that one a few times.
I would have added buttons on the
what will we do with out it! (Score:2, Funny)
It's just like Demolition Man... (Score:3, Insightful)
...where the police are looking for a violent killer, and then their surveillance locates him, and they all breathe a sigh of relief, as they assume that's the hard part done - all they have to do now is arrest him.
I can't help thinking that there's a wee bit more work to do than just find out what encryption method is being used.
Then again, maybe your average slashdotter thinks that 'breaking encryption' is as easy as 'guessing the algorithm used' :-).
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Well, sure, it'll be none trivial to get a key. OTOH,
Re:It's just like Demolition Man... (Score:4, Informative)
I don't want to worry you, but there's a possibility that cryptographers have thought of that.
For example: [purselipsquarejaw.org]
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But there's another avenue for attack. Given that a wii-game is capable of creating, verifying and signing its own savefiles, this means that the encryption-keys are also stored either in the wii-console or in the game-software.
So, it's just a matter of extracting them.
Once you know *both* the method of encryption and signing, *AND* are in posession of the relevant keys, the rest really is a walk
Something here is not right... (Score:2)
The number pairs are stored as a compound 60 bit data (first 30 bytes for the first number, and the next 30 bytes for the second).
Interesting that they can store 60 bytes of data in 60 bits! I think someone made a typo...
Obligatory quote (Score:2)
bits or bytes (Score:2)
That math does not seem to work out.
60 b = 30 B + 30 B (huh?)
So which is it, bits or bytes? Oh well, I guess I will go read the article to find out.
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Crypto as cheat-prevention (Score:2)
Now normally I would have nothing against "cheating" in this form: it is more like cheating at solitaire or using house rules an a dinner-table game. But when you are playing wit
Re:More important than homebrew potential (Score:5, Insightful)
for reference I am a linux user and took time out of writing a shell script for a solaris machine at work to write this response. normally your mentality is how I think but this time it doesn't stand up to a little critical thinking from the perspective of a fairly heavily vested party. [I don't know anyone who has spent more towards wii, games, and controllers than I have. though I am sure some
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Re:More important than homebrew potential (Score:5, Funny)
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Editing single player save games would have no effect on online play...
To prevent cheating with online games, you want to prevent modification of the game data itself, and modification of the network traffic. However this all gives a false sense of security, because people will still always find a way to cheat.
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One example that springs to mind is the online Pokémon trading in Pearl/Diamond, where many Pokémon are cheated, which kind of kills the point of it all.
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Diablo II had this kind of ability; you could use characters online and offline. As I recall, there was also a mode where you could only use a character online but I never used it. Unlike the Wii, this was important since it supported LAN play as well as Internet play, so a group of friends could get together and solve some of the quests together. Since the game was mainly cooperative, rather than competitive, it didn't affect the play for other people much.
If the only two options are offline and Inte
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Um... I'm afraid that Diablo II has no such feature. You can have eight characters on your computer and eight on the server, and they cannot mix.
Interesting. I frequently used the same characters in LAN games as in single player mode. I just fired up the game on a couple of machines, and it still seems to work. The only down side is that you lose the mapping information in any areas you visit. The map is dynamically generated on the server each time the game is launched, and so if you take a single player character in to a network game their map is reset.
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It DOES have this feature. How could you miss it?
They have both 'open' and 'closed' servers [diabloii.net]. The 'open' servers accept characters stored on your computer, and have no protection from hacked saves, but they are good for playing with friends who you know aren't cheating.
On 'closed' servers, your characters are created on their server and can only be played online.
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Mod parent troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps you don't understand why most
Nintendo does none of this. They encrypt savefiles. So what? This does not impede on your right to do anything. You can play any given game on as many Wiis as you wish. Nintendo is also not suing people to force hackers to halt breaking their savefile encryption. Game developers generally don't want players artificially advancing within games. Perhaps there are statistics stored within the savefile used online. Whatever's in the savefile is up to the game devs, and Nintendo is simply hiding that.
In other words, Nintendo is completely within their rights to encrypt savefiles. In turn, AFAIK, you are completely within your rights to attempt to break that encryption. And in turn again, Nintendo is completely within their rights to push out any updates to change or otherwise enforce their encryption. It's really that simple.
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You are from a generation that forgot about actual property rights, despite extensive brainwashing about intellectual property. The game console, the game disk and the
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Actually it does. The Wii allows removable flash memory storage for save games so you could technically edit save files on your PC with tools made by others to give you an advantage in single player games, plus lots of people just like to screw around and see what crazy kinds of things the can get the game to do.
Witness Warhog jumping is an example of us screwing around -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kg52_2XVtI [youtube.com]
And since technically as a consumer the
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Re:More important than homebrew potential (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I think there is a much more mundane reason. In the past some of the consoles were broken with manipulated save games, the games didn't properly check the data and so opened a hole. I would guess Nintendo didn't want to take that chance and so added an API which sits between the game and the saved data. As the saved data could be verified for being originally written by the game before the game would even get a chance to have a look at it, it means it is much harder to attack code not written by Nintendo to be exploited.
Disclaimer: I have never seen the API of a game console, this is only a wild guess.
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Some save mods arguably aren't cheating (Score:4, Funny)
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Just another case of Slashdot treating its visitors like criminals.
Worse yet: Slashdot probably encrypts that password before storing it in their database!!! The bastards!!!
Yes. I agree. They are no better than the RIAA. Death to all websites who use passwords and enrypt them before storing them. We want freedom for all!
Btw, what is the username for your PayPal account?
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Re:Uhh (Score:5, Insightful)
This means that Nintendo has a clue.
It is signing all the data with a certificate. Proper crypto, not DIY snakeoil ala most DRM schemes out there. The only way to break it is to get to the device key.
If they have done is right the key is per device and hardware protected by a crypto module. From there on breaking this at the crypto level is absolutely impossible.
The consequences are actually the opposite to what the clueless editor posted:
1. No chance for homebrew unless someone steals a cert from somewhere and even then Nintendo can simply revoke it using their online service or in a service pack.
2. All communication from the console to a server and back can be signed with strong crypto so no online game cheating.
As far as the elliptic curve cipher choice, this is a common choice for devices with very limited CPU or memory resources. That is what these ciphers are designed for.
All I can say: Applause Nintendo, applause, well done.
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For example, on a well designed system you cannot get the key, because it never leaves the hardware. As a result you have to intercept all requests to the crypto hardware and all replies. Depending on the implementation this may actually be quite hard. It may be useless
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Re:Uhh (Score:4, Insightful)
Autosave to defeat quickloading? (Score:2)
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We're talking about a console with flash memory storage. Flash is rather slow to write to, and continual saving would wear out the flash fairly quickly.
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The Wii Programming Guidelines (or Lot Check docs -- don't have the info at home but at work) dictate a maximum number of saving k/sec so as not to wear out the flash memory.
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Re:Uhh (Score:5, Interesting)
By the way, with some games refusing to run without updating, this becomes one of those scenarios where if your console is modded, you have to get games illegally to make them work (assuming pirates have found a way to eliminate the code that forces the update).
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Re:Uhh (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike Windows which you can get to install on damn near anything within reason.
I figure modders should get a second, control Wii if you will, that they can fall back on for games.
As much as I'm for tinkering, it's not like Nintendo's really promoting openess on their systems. Why should the modding community expect it? I feel the same way about the XBox and PS3 (although the PS3 not as much; Sony promoted the Linux part quite a bit).
Guess I'm just old fashioned in some ways. I like my consoles too much to tinker with em.
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I do actually have a second control Wii, I mainly use it for VC games, but if Nintendo ever get any decent online going I will be able to use it for that as well.
"no user servicable parts inside" (Score:5, Interesting)
the Xbox has been my media center for about 4 years. I bought it the day it was easily moddable/hackable. It now plays the anime and movies from my server and also plays my dvds along with the games and imports. I really like the option to pay imports. I do speak and understand english, so there really is no reason I should wait 1-2 years for a game. Or movie...
After maybe 2.5 years the dvd reader died and I couldn't read discs anymore. I bought a replacement dvd player for the xbox and installed it myself, voiding my already dead warranty.
Morale of the story :
1 / I used my xbox in a "creative" way, exceeding by much what MS previewed/allowed me to do with it. I had fun with it, and I didn't have to build or buy a pre-made media center.
2 / When it got broken I just had to buy a small, cheap part. not a full xbox, as a "no user servicable parts inside" box concept would have made me.
Episode 2, the WII
Take story from ep.1, make hardware standard pc stuff as in xbox, rinse, repeat.
Guess I, too, am just old fashioned in some ways. I'm too cheap to have every piece of kit I want, so I like to tinker with consoles to give them all the bells and whistles I cannot afford otherwise...
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When you buy a car, does the dealership forcefully prevent you from using "unapproved" gasoline ? Do they tell you which bumper stickers you're allowed to stick, and where ? Do they come and smash your car with a crowbar if you disobey ?
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Re:Uhh (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you modify your game console - that is, are you physically capable of altering its hardware? Sure! You can make it run imported games, homebrew games, Linux, anything you please. Heck, you can turn it into a motion-sensitive coffeepot if you want. However, the console manufacturer never sold you a motion-sensitive coffeepot, and they are under no obligation to support it if that's what you build out of it. To continue the car analogy, this would be like converting your new gasoline-powered vehicle to run on biodiesel, and then complaining to the dealer when it won't run on gasoline anymore. You're completely within your rights to do that, but the carmaker is also within its rights to make you support it yourself by taking away your warranty.
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I've always considered a console in the realm of "no user servicable parts inside."
He who owns it gets to modify it. It's one thing to refuse warranty service on hacked hardware, it's another entirely to deliberatly break it. If they want to keep modded boxes off of network games run from their servers, that's fine since it's their service and servers.
If as some say it's really just a possability that an end user mod may incidentally interact badly with a belssed update, that's just the cost of modify
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Sure, you are free to mod your Wii, but they don't have to support it, and you don't have to run updates (just don't bitch when future games don't run). Nintendo sold you a Wii, they intend to support the Wii. If you mess it up, it's your OWN DAMN FAULT.
It's like if I remove the front left tire from my car, then bitch that Ford won't service it under warranty because I should be free to do whatever I want to my care.
Simple fact is, if you mod your
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Actually I agree with that UNLESS an update is released with the intent of bricking modified units (I'm not saying Nintendo has or has not done that, I don't know). There's a world of difference between an intentional act of sabotage and a modder-caused incompatibility.
The rest of my comment was similarly directed to the important difference between not supporting mods (perfectly OK) vs. actively defeating them (not OK).
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And given the track record with the GBA/DS so far they're not really causing a fuss.
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Re:Uhh (Score:5, Insightful)
Next time try not to automatically assume modding = piracy, because it does not, no matter how much the hardware manufacturers like to say it does. If I could buy a mod chip that enables imports but not pirated games I gladly would. The constant erroneous association of modding with piracy by clueless people such as yourself has become extremely tiresome.
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None.
Playing a game from another region, with a modchip that is designed to remove the region HAS bricked the Wii. It's fairly obvious why. Disc sees that your console is not up to date (1.5U =! 1.5E) and then it patches the flash. Since the TV and some other internal things are slightly differnt--you get a nice white paperweight.
Nintendo is simply covering their asses when it comes to the patches with the note about 'unauthoriz