Google Engineer Sponsors New Kinect Bounties

ashidosan writes "Hot on the heels of the Adafruit competition, Matt Cutts (a search spam engineer at Google) is sponsoring two more $1,000 bounties for projects using Kinect. 'The first $1,000 prize goes to the person or team that writes the coolest open-source app, demo, or program using the Kinect. The second prize goes to the person or team that does the most to make it easy to write programs that use the Kinect on Linux.'" Relatedly, reader imamac points out a video showing Kinect operating on OS X.

That's good

[Chrisq]

When the driver was hacked I thought it was cool, but it would probably be a long time before someone actually used it for something nice. This might attract a few people.

Re:

[Pojut]

There's some decent potential for it being used in video teleconferencing and other such business applications...I'd imagine that, given the low accuracy of the technology at the moment, business use is going to be the extent of it.

I've been known to be entirely wrong before, however, so take that as you will...

Re:That's good

[Lumpy]

not really. I can think of a few uses.

The open source Gametable http://rptools.net/ [rptools.net] rptools could use this to translate tabletop real minnatures to virtual for distance gaming or as a UI to move your object and it moves the token on screen for a top down projection.
etc.....

IF I actually spent time on it, I could come up with a lot of them. Gesture door lock, alarm sensor that can reliably distinguish between a human and an animal, etc....

Re:

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

As a pure webcam, to be used alongside existing machine vision software, it is a significant letdown(640x480 for $150? I feel like its 1995 all over again!). The more-or-less realtime rangefinding, though, is head and shoulders above all but the most sophisticated work in hobbyist robots and things.

The only real downer is the 12 watt power draw and need for a USB 2.0 master. The USB 2.0 master requirement is way less limiting than it used to be(the shivaplug board on my desk qualifies, as well as being m

Re:That's good

[mcvos]

I've got a couple of (really simple) ideas for how to use it.

Actually, only one is really simple. I think my 1.5 year old son would love to see a big rabbit on TV that would simply replicate his every move. Not much of a game, but a cool tech demo, as well as something for my son to enjoy.

The other (much more ambitious) idea, is to mix it with an HTML 5 demo I already was considering. I'd need some way to turn Kinect events into mouse events, I guess. Something that a browser can handle, in any case, so I think that means mouse events. Something multitouchy would be nice, but I don't think browsers support that, do they?

Re:That's good

[thetartanavenger]

The other (much more ambitious) idea, is to mix it with an HTML 5 demo I already was considering. I'd need some way to turn Kinect events into mouse events, I guess. Something that a browser can handle, in any case, so I think that means mouse events. Something multitouchy would be nice, but I don't think browsers support that, do they?

Step one is complete: http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/11/hacked-kinect-taught-to-work-as-multitouch-interface/ [engadget.com]. Now they just need to create an html5 demo.

Re:

[mcvos]

Ah cool! What I was mostly worried about is how to pass those multitouch evens to the browser, though. Apart from some built-in zoom and scroll features, I didn't think browsers had any sort of general multitouch support.

But apparently, Firefox 4 has it [wordpress.com]. And apparently Safari and Chrome should be able to do it too, but I can't find anything about it yet.

Re:

[KovaaK]

It's a nice proof of concept and step in the right direction, but I wouldn't call it complete. He is simply tracking the two closest blobs, which happen to be his hands. Give the community some more time before we start making announcements about a minority report type interface being complete :P.

Re:

[mcvos]

Minority Report required special gloves. In a way, Kinect multi-touch is already more advanced than that. And I wouldn't mind if someone used his leg or head to do multi-touch manipulations. But perhaps special gloves might help to track only the hands and ignore the rest.

In any case, I prefer a gloveless interface.

Re:

[delinear]

I thought we'd already pretty much ruled out Minority Report style interfaces for the same reason we don't have a lot of vertical touchscreen interface usage (outside of a few specialist areas): gorilla arm syndrome [wikipedia.org]. It would be really cool to use this for about two minutes, and after that you'd want to throw it through the window (although I guess if you came up with a really reliable way to track the hands without them necessarily being held up towards the device you could neatly solve that, the arms coul

Re:

[SuricouRaven]

And actually very useful. Think CG television series - not movies, where you can afford the time to have artists position every joint, but a series where you have a week at most to complete an episode. This could speed things up considerably and at much lower cost than a full mocap setup. Presenters of children's shows could be easily replaced with CG character overlays.

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

Already working on this with an array of Kinects at a mocap studio in Chicago.

/friend works at the mocqp studio
//thought it up a couple of days ago
///amazon preordes for the win

Re:

[SuricouRaven]

s/rabbit/raven/

Much better.

Re:

[leuk_he]

s/rabbit/tiger/

:W Kinectimals [wikipedia.org]

Re:

[Jaxim]

Agreed. My 2 year old somewhat gets the kinect but she would enjoy it even more if there were a mode where the avatar (i.e. your rabbit avatar) mirrored her every move.

Re:

[mcvos]

Exactly! It's perfect for that age. I'm sure my son would find it absolutely hilarious. I hope he's not too old for it by the time it's finished.

In other news, my boss is also somewhat interested in doing cool stuff with the Kinect.

Re:

[xtracto]

Poser + Blender + Blender Game Engine + Kinect = Lots of fun =oD

Re:

[Timmmm]

Actually, only one is really simple. I think my 1.5 year old son would love to see a big rabbit on TV that would simply replicate his every move. Not much of a game, but a cool tech demo, as well as something for my son to enjoy.

That's not remotely simple. All the pose-tracking stuff is done in the xbox. It's complicated computer vision stuff, and it will be *extremely* hard to get it to work as well as Microsoft has.

The other (much more ambitious) idea, is to mix it with an HTML 5 demo I already was considering. I'd need some way to turn Kinect events into mouse events, I guess. Something that a browser can handle, in any case, so I think that means mouse events. Something multitouchy would be nice, but I don't think browsers support that, do they?

That would be much much easier. I guess Google TV's browser might support multitouch, since it is just Android.

Watch!

[ZDRuX]

I bet Microsoft will be all over the courts trying to stop this thing, and you know what?!.. I bet this news will sell thousands more units, knowing we can screw around with it in our own way.. they just don't get it.

Re:

[mcvos]

I think Microsoft already announced that they're okay with it. Just don't expect any support from them.

Re:Watch!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I suspect that MS knows that they don't have a leg to stand on against the present activity(all the copyrighted code/DRM protected stuff/patented wizbangs are in the firmware, and writing a driver that just receives the data the firmware generates is the sort of thing that even the DMCA explicitly protects). I assume that their frankly nasty bluster so far has been about two things 1. management of the fears of Joe User: Joe hears "hackers hack Kinect", Joe assumes that his Kinect is now watching his children on behalf of Romanian cybercriminals. MS doesn't want that, so they talk big about how secure and law-enforcement-cooperating they are. 2. Overton window shifting: If you want a specific, and novel, legal result, you generally have to prepare the groundwork for it by modifying the discourse. You do this by the crude; but often successful, expedient of repeating your currently-false-but-desired-to-be-true worldview in public, a lot. If "unapproved use = tampering = evil" has been repeated a few thousand times by the time that DMCA 2: Son of DMCA comes before congress, it will be much more likely to make it in.

Now, if somebody does something directly competitive with PrimeSense, on a commercial scale, you may well see the claims start flying that any working Kinect driver must be implementing 127 patented algorithms and is otherwise all kinds of illegal; but that probably isn't worth the cost of process servers for the current scruffy band of international hackers...

Re:

[SuricouRaven]

I've heard speculation - and it's just speculation, as the contract is secret - that part of the condition for Microsoft's licencing the patents was that the Kinect must only be useable for gaming and nothing else in order to avoid cutting into the sales of far more expensive professional mocap and range-finding equipment. If the Kinect can be used as a 'two-thirds the quality, one-tenth the price' replacement for professional gear, smaller studios might decide it's good enough and forgo the expense of prof

Re:

[PPalmgren]

I wonder if its because of MS's bad loss-leader habits. The Xbox was more expensive to manufacture initially than its retail price, and they expected to make money in the long term or by games. If the Xbox could be used for more than gaming, making buying the standalone system commonplace, it becomes a financial disaster.

If, when designing the Kinect, they couldn't make the system price competitive for the specs they wanted, they may have taken this route. Of course, if this is the case, Kinect sales tha

Re:

[PPalmgren]

err, disregard...someone debunked it below

Re:Watch!

[JohnBailey]

I bet Microsoft will be all over the courts trying to stop this thing, and you know what?!.. I bet this news will sell thousands more units, knowing we can screw around with it in our own way.. they just don't get it.

Why?

The parts have been shown to cost about $50. Add a few dollars per unit manufacturing, packaging, transport.. And you have a nice little profit. So despite the whiner chorous insisting it is selling at a loss.. It isn't.

Each one sold, is more money for Microsoft.
Each one sold puts an MS logo in front of the buyer.
Each one sold increases the chances of games being written including the kinect for the xBox. And more enthusiastic reception if and when they release a Windows SDK for it.

So..Other than some vague paranoid "because it's Microsoft" excuse.. Why the flying fuck would they stand in the way of this thing selling?

Re:

[MBCook]

And a lot of that profit goes to the over $200 million they spent to license and develop the technology. The plans didn't appear out of thin air.

Re:

[JohnBailey]

And a lot of that profit goes to the over $200 million they spent to license and develop the technology. The plans didn't appear out of thin air.

So selling the bloody things might possibly be a good idea yes?

Re:

[delinear]

The development costs only matter if they're making a loss on each one they sell, because it will efectively mean each unit sold for non-gaming purposes takes money out of their pocket and denies them sales. If they're making a profit, as GP suggests, then each unit sold for non-gaming purposes might take games sales out of their pocket but it still makes them a profit, which goes towards paying off those development costs. So long as they don't have any kind of major supply issues, it's always going to be

Re:

[citizenr]

And a lot of that profit goes to the over $200 million they spent to license and develop the technology. The plans didn't appear out of thin air.

Except they didnt develop "the technology" (structured light), they developed 40something points skeletal tracking algorithm that makes games like Adventures LAG 0.5 second on XBOX. They demoed this tracking even before talks with Primesense.
They did buy our 3DV Systems that used Tof (tof camera had 0.5 second delay to begin from watching 3DV demos). They were hoping it would work, but it didnt so they ended up using third party Primesense.

Re:

[UnknowingFool]

So..Other than some vague paranoid "because it's Microsoft" excuse.. Why the flying fuck would they stand in the way of this thing selling?

Software exclusivity. If there were no open source driver, consumers have to buy Xbox software which MS takes in a percentage in licensing for every title sold. Normally to get exclusivity, MS or Sony or Nintendo makes deals with game studio to get exclusive rights. Or in the case of Halo, MS owns the studio. Do you think the Xbox would have been sold as many units as it did when it launched if consumers could have gotten Halo on PC, PS2, OS X, etc? If the Kinect is tied to Xbox, then the exclusivity i

Re:Watch!

[Timmmm]

The parts have been shown to cost about $50

Utter bullshit. That's just the BOM for the 'major' chips. It doesn't include PCBs, small components like capacitors and voltage regulators, the housing, lenses, cables, connectors, tilt servo. Nor does it include the cost of assembly, transport and packaging.

I suppose you think nice restaurants are a rip-off because the price of eggs and flour is so low.

Re:

[delinear]

Unless you're eating pancakes at this nice restaurant, eggs and four are probably not the "major" components of your meal. If you order a steak, what do you think accounts for most of the cost of your meal, the steak or the fries? Unless you're suggesting that the miscellaneous costs are double the major costs for this device, I think it's not unreasonable for GP to suggest they're probably making a profit, even if it's not nearly as much as the figures might suggest.

Re:

[Confusador]

Someone said this more concisely above, but the GP's point is perhaps obscured by his use of the word 'profit'... he's not saying that the division is making money, but that the major hardware components leave enough room that the margin on these units is likely to defray the other costs. In other words, selling more is better because it increases the chance that they will recoup development.

Re:

[JAlexoi]

Yeah, but nice restaurants' product is not the amalgamation of ingredients it's the knowledge and skill of the cook.
The PCB and other components are dirt cheap. Even when manufacturing high quality goods. Other mechanical parts, assembly and packaging is so cheap these days, that you would weep if you knew the real numbers for high quantities.

Re:

[Patch86]

You could use the exact same arguments to ask "why the flying fuck didn't Microsoft release it for Windows 7 too". If it's such an amazing piece of hardware for it's price (I'm told it's a perfectly capable motion capture device, and you've just said that it's dirt cheap for them to manufacture), it's tricky to see why they'd limit themselves to simulated tennis and virtual pets.

If they're making such a killing on selling these units, as you suggest, and if they're such handy devices- why haven't they been

Re:

[JohnBailey]

You could use the exact same arguments to ask "why the flying fuck didn't Microsoft release it for Windows 7 too". If it's such an amazing piece of hardware for it's price (I'm told it's a perfectly capable motion capture device, and you've just said that it's dirt cheap for them to manufacture), it's tricky to see why they'd limit themselves to simulated tennis and virtual pets.

I have heard a few rumors they will. If not as an original policy decision, then as a reaction to all the hype. If it sustains.

One good reason why they haven't even announced a PC version would be that it isn't really a good thing to attach to a PC yet. Look at the videos that have been released so far. It can separate a hand from the background when it is held significantly close to the cameras. And it's really designed to separate a human silhouette from it's background. Fairly coarse control. Which is go

I thought microsoft didn't innovate?

[js3]

seems everyone wants a piece of that kinect thing they created.

Re:I thought microsoft didn't innovate?

[Christopher Fritz]

Not that I'm agreeing with the premise that Microsoft never has any innovations of their own, but in the case of Kinect, PrimeSense [primesense.com] developed the hardware. I don't know if Microsoft further developed it, or provided requirements for PrimeSense to develop it into something to use for the XBox, but it didn't begin with Microsoft.

Re:

[drinkypoo]

That's OK, they actually bought the technology like everything else cool they ever sold.

Re:

[recoiledsnake]

Like Apple bought FingerWorks(for multi-touch on iPhone and iPad) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks [wikipedia.org]. They also bought iTunes and a bunch of other innovative companies and continue to do it. Google bought Android and a ton of other companies. So, according to you, Apple and Google are not innovative, right?

Re:

[UnknowingFool]

In the case of Kinect, I would agree that it is innovative. Most of the technology around Xbox has been. The rest of MS unfortunately hasn't been as much.

There is much to compare between MS and Apple when it comes to acquisitions. Both discontinue products of that company but brings it in the fold. Both of them have differed on how acquisitions have been used. Apple generally buys a company for talent or patents. In the case of Fingerworks, they made keyboards and mice but no longer. Apple used their

Re:

[drinkypoo]

So, according to you, Apple and Google are not innovative, right?

I'd say rather that they are less innovative than people believe them to be. I'm pretty Anti-Apple so you won't see me defend them much, except in the rare applicable cases. And you will see that happen. Go forth and google my posting history if you don't believe me and care enough to hassle me in this way.

I would say that Google's first strength isn't in innovation; we've seen pretty much everything they've done before, but it was inferior. Thus Google is first and foremost about competence. There was free

Re:

[citizenr]

That's OK, they actually bought the technology like everything else cool they ever sold.

The thing is they didnt. Its merely a partner agreement between Primesense and Microsoft. Microsoft doesnt own a single bit of hardware technology that goes into Kinect.

Re:

[naoursla]

And they hired people to write the software that does the skeleton tracking,

Microsoft never creates anything. They just pay people money to make stuff for them.

Re:

[Narishma]

They didn't innovate, they just bought the technology from some small Israeli company. Or maybe they bought the whole company, I don't remember. One or the other.

Re:

[andydread]

They didn't create it. The licenesed the camera system from a military company. They were even told to wait for the new system as it's much better than the current cheap system that Microsoft licensed. So no they did not invent this. Just a few minutes of googling would have made this obvious to you. Also Here [youtube.com] you can see that this idea is not even original. Dude figured out how to do this ages ago with a Wii-mote

Re:

[xtracto]

It is so funny that you point to a video of a guy who actually went to work for Microsfot to develop the Kinect.

The thing about the Kinect is not the camera per-se but the complete system for gaming. Including the SDK and API that Microsoft had to build in order to introduce the abilities of PrimeSense hardware to Xbox games...

Also, your video shows you have no idea what you are talking about, comparing the Wii IR sensor with a set of cameras that can detect depth.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny you should make that crack about googling because if YOU had googled around a little bit then you would have found this recent article [wired.co.uk] which goes into detail about how Kinect came together and shows that Microsoft did a lot more than just buy the PrimeSense technology and repackage it. The PrimeSense hardware alone was not enough to do what the Microsoft researchers envisioned.

The reason a lot of people are excited about this is because Microsoft did something truly innovative here. Try to be mature

Open Source Dance Music

[digitaldc]

Make an open source music video dancing and/or air guitar game and you will win.

This is good....

[corp769]

This being said, the sales of the kinect will most likely sky rocket due to us hackers wanting some money, let-alone a lot of people are going to want to buy it just to hack it.

Ok, Google:

[balaband]

You are committed to improve user experience and implement cool toys in Linux?

Then do something about better graphics drivers (help the guys developing them, or put pressure on manufacturers to open specs). You are going to need it for Chrome OS eventually, and you will gain a lot of good karma from the geeks around the world.

Re:Ok, Google:

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I strongly suspect that Google either considers the matter of Linux drivers largely solved(ie. Intel anything except that GMA 500 crap will work fine, just not very fast in any OS, NVIDIA spits on OSS; but mostly knows how to make the trains run on time within their binary blob world, AMD/ATI has made substantial commitments to improved openness and to their closed source stuff not sucking) or something to be solved with much larger piles of money, quietly "We have every expectation of shipping 1-2 million ChromeOS devices a quarter. It is our comittment to our customers, and a requirement of our product design, that the graphical experience be both rich and rock-solid..." *raises eyebrows significantly at meeting room full of competing vendors*.

While I would certainly like to see them buy the Nouveau guys some beer or something, I suspect that, for the purposes of an entity like Google, graphics is either a solved problem, or an area where they don't need to go with penny-ante public announcements.

(In addition, of course, this current competition is sponsored by a guy who just works for Google. Obviously it is unlikely that Google is going to sack him for it, but their only support for the competition is by the indirect means of paying the guy's salary for work he does for them, leaving him with the cash to offer a prize. This isn't a Google competition.)

Re:

[balaband]

I must admit that you are right - Google does seem to see this problem as 'solved'. However, I got a feeling that we are still not there yet - I searched for comparison test in FPS difference between two OS, but couldn't find one nice comprehensive test. Please inform me if you find one, I would be very interested to see end results.

I speak from my bitter experience with nvidia drivers. Maybe I'm the exception and not the rule.

I know we would see a lot more Linux distros installed when it would have a nicer

Re:

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I think that the basic problem is that Google's desires(and thus expenditures) do not line up with those of the freelance linux-on-the-desktop community.

Google (correctly) perceives that, because their area of strength lies in their essentially opaque search, advertising, and operations expertise, much of which is OSS based but purely in house, exposed only by web APIs, that they have no particular competitive advantage in desktop and mobile, unlike MS(desktop) or Apple(mobile, high-end consumer desktop)

Re:

[xtracto]

Stupid, this does not have anything to do with Google.

The only reason why Google is mentioned is because this guys happens to work here.

Re:

[balaband]

If a guy from UPS said that he would sponsor it - than it wouldn't be a news.

Actions of its employees somewhat can be reflected as actions of the company; If not, this guy would be fired already. Only this way the Google was given excuse in the event of a problematic outcome: "Hey, it wasn't us - it was this guy".

Anyway, do you really believe that he actually gave this announcement without consulting corporate lawyers?

Re:

[Hadlock]

Then, not than.

Re:

[balaband]

Thenks

Kinect hype

[bjourne]

Can someone please explain what this Kinect thing is? I heard it was something Microsoft developed but despite that it is just as cool as if was Apple that made it. Please someone enlighten me, why do I want a Kinect?

Re:

[shish]

Can someone please explain what this Kinect thing is?

AFAIK it's a webcam with a "distance" channel as well as RGB (possibly also a temperature channel and noise cancelling mic, though I may be imagining those)

Re:

[citizenr]

Can someone please explain what this Kinect thing is?

AFAIK it's a webcam with a "distance" channel as well as RGB (possibly also a temperature channel and noise cancelling mic, though I may be imagining those)

Sadly no temperature. Noise canceling done in software.

Re:

[SuricouRaven]

It's a couple of cameras coupled to some processing capability which makes it capable of human figure image recognition. Basically you stand in it's field of view and it looks at you and calculates with reasonable precision the positions of all your major joints. It's a posture sensor.

Re:

[nanomanc]

It tells me where my joints are? I want one :)

Re:

[citizenr]

It's a couple of cameras coupled to some processing capability which makes it capable of human figure image recognition. Basically you stand in it's field of view and it looks at you and calculates with reasonable precision the positions of all your major joints. It's a posture sensor.

Nope, what you described is done in software.

Re:

[SuricouRaven]

It is indeed - but the software runs on the Kinect itsself. Embedded processor. The 360 is a games console - it needs all the processor time it can get for graphics. The Kinect itsself does most of the image processing (specifically the task of producing a depth map), reducing the load on the 360.

Re:

[miffo.swe]

Its a webcam with some depth perception and a mic. I dont know why anyone would get worked up about it. The original stuff was something else since it did much the calc stuff in hardware, this version does most in software.

Also, it was developed in a company Microsoft bought and then maimed it to pieces. Microsoft bought a good product and made it worse.

Re:

[mcvos]

Apple gets plenty of crap around here for their walled garden. And this is the first time in human history that Microsoft made something really cool. Can we please applaud that? Or do we all have to be grumpy curmudgeons like you?

I love this new Kinect craze!

[Kensai7]

Arguably, this is the coolest gadget around since the 2007 iPhone. Its potential to revolutionize the UI field are enormous. Just as we were finally arriving to touch screens, there you go... no screens at all! :)

(of course, I'm joking... the same efficiency and functionality is years in the future)

huh?

[Charliemopps]

I'm having trouble giving a fuck. Someone please enlighten me to why anyone would want, what's basically a camera made by Microsoft, trained on their living room 24hrs a day? We'll be able to plat tux racer with hand movements?

Re:

[peterbye]

Yeah that'll be great, having to sit completely still whilst watching a film in case you change channels or skip to the next chapter whilst reaching for your beer.

Re:huh?

[mcvos]

We'll be able to plat tux racer with hand movements?

Actually, that was my third idea for a Kinect application: a racing game where you steer with a pretend-wheel in the air. And if possible, accelerate by going "BWBWBWBWBWB" with your lips. That'd be really cool.

Re:

[game kid]

a racing game where you steer with a pretend-wheel in the air. And if possible, accelerate by going "BWBWBWBWBWB" with your lips. That'd be really cool.

Not as cool as the vertical shoot-em-up where you move within the bounds by leaning, shoot lasers by saying "pewpewpew", and pause by saying "beedoobeedoo", though.

Re:

[UnknowingFool]

nd if possible, accelerate by going "BWBWBWBWBWB" with your lips. That'd be really cool.

[prays]
Oh please, please let there be a "nitrous gas" option. That would be totally AWESOME!

Re:

[triso]

[...]

[prays]

Oh please, please let there be a "nitrous gas" option. That would be totally AWESOME!

There's always the "methane gas" option but not when you have visitors, PUHleese.

Re:

[DarthVain]

lol

or even better a first person shooter where you make "gun hands" and shoot by going "pew pew" or thrusting your hands forward or upward in mock recoil... :)

Re:

[c0rnwallis]

Perhaps a very simple sort of time-lapse gadget could be programmed, too see how much traffic your room gets.

Just For Kicks

[polyp2000]

I would love to see -- ANY of these tech demo's running on the PS3 - If not only because it can be done - that , and the headline would only piss microsoft off even more ! (one would probably need a jailbroken machine at least to start with) ....