China Alleged To Use Prisoners In Lucrative Internet Gaming 313
SoyQueSoy pointed out an article that reveals it's not all fun, but forced games for some Chinese prisoners. It is alleged that after a day of hard labor some inmates are forced to work through the night as gold farmers. "Prison bosses made more money forcing inmates to play games than they do forcing people to do manual labor," [prisoner] Liu told the Guardian. "There were 300 prisoners forced to play games. We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp. I heard them say they could earn 5,000-6,000rmb [£470-570] a day. We didn't see any of the money. The computers were never turned off."
One of these guys (Score:3)
5000-6000 rmb a day (Score:3)
I am in the wrong business! If this is exploitation, chain me to the PC!
On second thoughts though, that number is probably not a "per prisoner earning".
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That's 300 prisoners making ~$850 a day. Or about $2.85 a person, per day. That doesn't sound like much, but multiply it times a few hundred thousand people and you're looking at a good extra bit of money for the government to keep running their work camps.
US employs 80,000 prisoners for labor (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/may2000/pris-m08.shtml
"There are presently 80,000 inmates in the US employed in commercial activity, some earning as little as 21 cents an hour."
"In addition, during the last 20 years more than 30 states have passed laws permitting the use of convict labor by commercial enterprises. These programs now exist in 36 states."
"Prisoners who refuse to work under these conditions are labeled “uncooperative” and risk losing time off for “good behavior,” as well as privileges such as library access and recreation."
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I've seen the dark side of this, and let me tell you, arm chair nerd reading this, that YOU are guilty of supporting slavery. YOU are complicit in the wonton inhumane and completely barbaric treatment of beings as human as you..
and you'll make some joke about how its "PMITA" prison and say it could never happen
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YOU are complicit in the wonton inhumane and completely barbaric treatment of beings as human as you..
I'm forcing inmates to eat Chinese food?
Hint: the word you're looking for is "wanton".
Re:US employs 80,000 prisoners for labor (Score:5, Insightful)
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Just because someone is in prison doesn't mean they should be slaves. Forget the obvious ramifications and simply focus on the most obvious, the person falsely accused.
Case in point: Both wife and I were jailed and prosecuted for something we didn't do. Everything eventually came out, full confession by the instigator, and we were cleared, but sadly we're not alone. This country does not, and has not for quite some time, follow the "innocent until proven guilty" method. Quite the opposite, in fact. Get accu
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In conclusion, Americans are ten times more likely to deserve to be in jail than Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States [wikipedia.org]
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Well, the city I'm in is causing my misanthropy to act up, again, but I'm currently of the opinion all people are scum. Pretty much everyone I know is a terrible person who should be in jail, for one reason or another.
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I'm much happier thinking some rapist, pedophile, or insider trader (oh wait, they're too rich for jail...) was worked to death for my materialism than I was thinking some hard working average guy in China worked a year of 18 hour shifts.
Really? That average guy in China probably has two choices - work his ass off or let his family starve.
Shitty working conditions are shitty, but they tend to be a whole hell of a lot better than the alternative.
Meanwhile think about this for a while:
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
~ Fyodor Dostoevsky
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dude.. have you been to OUR prisons? I'm sorry.. I don't particularly wanna talk about other countries prisons and their legal/judicial system when we have such a F-ed system here. To be frank, I'm almost certain the Chinese legal system is very similar to ours.. more $ -> less chance to be jailed. Of course there's that thin line of "opposing the state/disrupt the peace etc".. but then again.. our government can detain, imprison you, me or anyone w/o cause by branding us enemy combatant of the state..
so
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Go ahead, tell me.
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Oh, I didn't say I liked private jails. But claiming we are all guilty of deliberately 'enslaving' folks in prison is a crock. Slavery is a way to get extremely cheap labor. We aren't getting that. There are some individuals taking advantage of the system to make money, but claiming we are all guilty of enslaving folks is just dumb.
Re:US employs 80,000 prisoners for labor (Score:5, Insightful)
That has been deemed fine, as the powers that be decided that only hard labour is cruel. Sewing for a few dollars a day is apparently fine. My real problem with it is the loaning to commercial enterprise, seems like a conflict of interest for a few parties involved, which can lead to, yeah, you know... If it's truly voluntary and not benefiting to private outfits I think it's fair enough. or if working for private enterprise, the outfit they are contracting for pays market wage, and it goes to a charity if they don't want the prisoners to collect. That way there is no advantage for the outfit, no kickback to the prison, etc.
Wouldn't mind seeing hard labour come back for violent offences myself, at least for recidivists. Some folks you just can't reach and all that.
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My real problem with it is the loaning to commercial enterprise,
Absolutely. I don't think it is a stretch to say that the group of people advocating for this sort of thing is in large part the same group who tout capitalism, free-markets and laissez-faire policies. So even if they don't have a problem with forced labor, they sure are hypocrites for supporting what is essentially corporate welfare.
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Inmates cost society a lot of money, why not make them earn their living like the rest of us?
Because that is slavery.
Some people never learn (Score:5, Funny)
So that former prison guard is in jail for being a whistleblower, and now he is whistleblowing again. Tsk tsk.
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So that former prison guard is in jail for being a whistleblower, and now he is whistleblowing again. Tsk tsk.
Stop playing with whistle. Whistle not worth anything. Sword, shield, axe and crown are good paying items. Get back to work!
Prison Income scheme (Score:2)
A variant of this happens in Nevada (Score:5, Interesting)
Since they never tipped, the bartenders hated them. Whenever they saw the bus pull up, they'd place drinks at the slots to reserve the spots.
Anyway, wherever there is money you will find corruption. Rule of law (applied equably), transparency, and cultural values are all that mitigate this. The only reason this doesn't happen in American for-profit prisons is that the money isn't good enough, yet. But the dollar continue to drop. Your kids might gold-farm for the Chinese.
Re:A variant of this happens in Nevada (Score:4, Insightful)
Your friend is full of shit, slot machines pay out consistently over time due to math. It could literally jackpot 10 times in a row or never in the machines lifetime, it's just freakishly unlikely.
Re:A variant of this happens in Nevada (Score:4, Informative)
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Well, yes, i suppose it would be prevented from happening because they might yank it, but not due to any of its internal programming.
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Actually, no. If a machine hits jackpot twice even like that, they would yank the machine from the floor.
Why? Wouldn't a machine that happened to hit multiple jackpots in a row be a huge draw for customers? My impression is that Casinos want flashy payouts to get more people to come play because they damned well understand the law of large numbers.
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No, you are full of shit. Slot machines are not random, in any sense. Modern ones are networked, and vary their payouts based on the playing patterns in the machines around them. Play slowing down? People moving between machines (ever wonder WHY there are slot club cards?), the computers will dole out various sized jackpots to keep people in their seat. If an entire row is full of people who aren't moving around and are cycling a lot of money? Payouts will drop.
Its all totally legal, as long as the slot mac
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It may well be rolling a die on a central server, but I guarantee you that server doesn't have logic like, "if machine #2222 wins, don't pay out to #2222 (or anybody) again for x spins". It would be super illegal.
And you're right, in the hypothetical freak scenario where a machine jackpots twice or 3 times in a row, they will investigate it, much like I"m sure they'd investigate a guy who won the lottery jackpot back to back, legitimately, even if he was truly just lucky enough to win a 1 in quadrillions s
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I guarantee you that server doesn't have logic like, "if machine #2222 wins, don't pay out to #2222 (or anybody) again for x spins". It would be super illegal.
FWIW, packs of lotto scratch-cards DO work exactly like that:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/02/why-liquor-store-clerks-often-win-lotto/70786 [theatlantic.com]
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Which are pre-determined. We're talking about machines that are required by law to be as random as possible. Now, the reality of this...
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So are you claiming that for your project, if there was one jackpot in the 5,000,000 generated spins, and the very first gambler got lucky and won that jackpot, and then the next 4,999,999 plays would be spun by gamblers for months with no real shot at the jackpot?
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This means that the longer one type of slot at a casino doesn't pay out, the higher the odds are that they will soon.
It is for exactly this lack of comprehension of odds that the casinos put up the "recent numbers" boards at the roulette tables, and people bet based on what numbers or colors haven't shown up for a while.
Casinos make money when you gamble stupidly.
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You need to understand that Slot machines, unlike roulette wheels, are not purely random. They contain logic that pre-decides where the wheels will spin to and discard outlier values that would take the machine outside programmed min and max payout rates (as well as do other things designed to hook and encourage play). These payout rates are frequently set by law. Thus if a machine is reaching the low point there actually is a higher chance of a win as the machine discards more losing combinations.
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I always wonder why these types of slots don't work on a purely random basis. Yes, there's variance to consider, but over time (even if the advantage is 0.1% or less), the tide will always go to the weighted side (just like a roulette wheel).
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They do, the original poster is just full of shit.
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They do, the original poster is just full of shit.
is he now?
however funksoulbrother check below, there's even a link.
i would further point out that ALL gaming machines regardless of what type HAVE to have this pay out percentage.. end of...
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I thought I was on Slashdot, where a majority of people understood probability and statistics. I suppose it's not 1999 anymore. I'm literally a comp sci dropout and this isn't that hard for me.
Did you read the text of that Wikipedia article? I'll highlight the important words:
The winning patterns on slot machines - the amounts they pay and the frequencies of those payouts - are carefully selected to yield a certain fraction of the money played to the "house" (the operator of the slot machine), while returning the rest to the players during play.
Suppose that a certain slot machine costs $1 per spin. It can be calculated that over a sufficiently long period, such as 1,000,000 spins, that the machine will return an average of $950,000 to its players, who have inserted $1,000,000 during that time. In this (simplified) example, the slot machine is said to pay out 95%.
Notice where no one programmed the thing with any logic about when to pay out? They are relying on math to handle the payouts. The machine IS truly random, they just structure the pay table in such a way that it pays off x% of what it
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The universe, and all the roulette balls and dice in it, are also a very large state machine.
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Decades ago, they did. These days they're sophisticated, networked computers calculating odds across the entire casino to keep the payout percentage *exactly* at the state mandated minimum while adjusting payout patterns to keep slot players in their seat.
So you are wonderning why they aren't random? When you take in a billion in cash, and the state mandates you pay back 97% of it, you're talking about a change in statistics shifting 30 million dollars in profits. Missing that percentage by .01% is still $3
A variant of this happens in Bellevue, WA (Score:5, Interesting)
We have a mall with a lottery ticket booth. On occasion we get a whole crew of people (old, immigrants, hobo-looking) playing large volumes of scratch tickets. The mob boss (big fat guy in a cowboy hat) sits nearby, keeping an eye on his people.
It's a money laundering operation. It doesn't have to pay back 100 cents on the dollar. It just has to be competitive with other methods of converting 'dirty' cash into clean.
One thing that makes the entire operation pretty obvious: There's a food court, Starbucks and whatnot there. In any other setting, that would be a magnet for the local cops. But not here. If they've got business in the mall, they go in quickly, take care of it and get out. Fast. Evidently, there's an agreement for them to stay out.
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Not in any mall food court I've ever been in over the last thirty years. (And that includes many in the Seattle area.)
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You missed several key points in your friend's story. There are progressive slot machines where the jackpot keeps going up based on the amount of play. If the jackpot has not been hit in a long time it is possible that the jackpot amount is enough that the odds of hitting the jackpot are in the players favor. It it costs you $1 to play and the odds of winning the jackpot are 1 in 100, then as soon as the jackpot goes over $100 the odds of you hitting the jackpot before you spend more than the jackpot are
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That is the dumbest thing I've heard today. And if that is actually true, they are even dumber. There is a reason why casino do not go out of business.
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Somebody failed statistics/probability 101
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Slot machines in Nevada are regulated and required to pay out a certain percentage over time. This means that the longer one type of slot at a casino doesn't pay out, the higher the odds are that they will soon. Once a casino got to the point where a payoff was probable, a bus would pull up full of compulsive gamblers, all wearing the same windbreakers.
I call bullshit. Why? Because that's not the way the universe works [wikipedia.org]. The spins of a fair slot machine (and they are fair, are independent, identically distributed [wikipedia.org].
Everything's online these days! (Score:2)
So basically, they're mining digital blood diamonds? I guess everything really is available online these days!
FARMING for gold? How 2008ish! (Score:4, Insightful)
Any minute now we'll get the BitCoin tie-in for this article.
Any minute now...
I'm waiting for it.
well, they ARE prisoners (Score:2)
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I can think of worse things that prisoners could be forced to do. Heck, even stamping license plates or cleaning trash on the sides of highways seems like it would be more work than playing WoW. Isn't the whole problem for whoever wrote that article that the prison officials are making money off of it? That's always the case with prisons though... While I can see how this is weird, I don't see why anyone would be pissed off about it.
Did you read the bit about the guards beating the crap out of you with rubber hoses if you did not live up to your days gold quota. I think that would probably make me pretty pissed off.
Then there is the fact that this is as well as the hard labour, not instead of. This sounds like something the prison bosses have thought up as a way of making cash on the side, the prisoners still have to do the hard labour of digging trenches in an open cast coal mine all day.
12 hours a day? (Score:2)
Amateurs, I do that before Breakfast...
Petitions (Score:2)
hmm (Score:2)
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Well, endgame in certain MMOs (read: WOW) is highly competitive as well as extremely time and material consuming. And the time consuming part isn't the competitive part either. In order to get the gear and all the items one needs to raid or PVP competitively and be able to buy all the stuff they want/need, it takes hours upon hours upon hours of farming the in-game currency or the materials from the limited amount of in game zones that contain them. Either way, it takes time and can be quite life consuming.
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This is likely because your money is more valuable to you than your time. For people who have a lot of money, that's often the other way around. So if there are parts of the game they really like and parts that they don't care for so much, they can pay to avoid it, only getting the parts that they want. Some games are set up to enable that trade, and some games regard it as cheating. Personally, I'm not a fan of games that have a grind, even though I didn't mind them when I was younger. For me, though,
Non-Transferable Credits (Score:2)
FTA:
It is known as "gold farming", the practice of building up credits and online value through the monotonous repetition of basic tasks in online games such as World of Warcraft. The trade in virtual assets is very real, and outside the control of the games' makers.
Why not simply make credits non-transferable within the game?
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I'm hoping that's a joke, money that cannot be transferred doesn't do much good.
Think Sony (sorry for swearing) was on the right track when they created servers where they allowed selling of items for real money.
I see a lot of whining... (Score:2)
...but I don't see the problem?
They're PRISONERS. You guys do understand what that means, right?
OK, granted, I may have an issue with what China defines as prison-worthy (ie. speaking out about the government) but setting that aside, what's the problem with PRISONERS being made to perform useful tasks?
Prison costs money, and if you can make the prisoners work to recoup that cost, all the better.
In China, I'd imagine it's a damn sight better than the alternative - compulsory organ donor, or somesuch.
I'm for it (Score:2)
I'm all for getting prisoners to work, however they shouldn't be exploited (by this I mean working ungodly hours, not being paid for it is fine).
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^^^
Danger, goatse
Re:Seriously (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess you missed the part about them being forced to gold mine all night after a long day of hard labor. Are people skipping the summary now too?
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
No, just ignoring the parts that make no sense whatsoever.
If I have you as a slave, and you can make me $100/12hrs doing manual labor or $500/12hrs goldfarming... Do you seriously think I'd waste half your income-generating day having you fill potholes?
The "after" makes no sense when they could farm gold for both shifts and make their jailers 66% ($600 vs $1000) more per day.
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
They still have to answer to their superiors when China's projects are not being completed with slave labor.
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How about hiring people on the side to fill potholes who weren't smart enough to get into Apple's Foxconn iPod factories? $500-$100=$400.
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm guessing that NOBODY makes 5000 RMB a day gold mining. That's almost $1000 US! Or 1 month's salary for a skilled professional, or a semi-skilled worker in a dangerous job.
5000 a day may have been for a large team. 60 prisoners making 85 a day? And the boss gets 5000. It could have been a lucky day when some guy found a +100 sword of ass-kicking. No idea, really.
But if you could make 5000 a day gold farming, I'd do it, and I hate those soul-sucking games. Cruel and unusual punishment, indeed.
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They can answer with hard cash, half-assed finished work, cute prostitutes or a combination of the three. It's China.
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The articles says 300 prisoners made $500+/day. That's enough for one (or maybe two) new computer(s) per day, so in half a year they'd have erased your 1:2 ratio and doubled their profit simply by being minimally non-stupid.
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
In a country where you can be jailed for bitching to the government, do you really think that the bosses of the prisons are at all independent of the power structure?
And the fact that exploitation of human desperation is common does not make it right, in or out of prison. China's brand of socialism is bullshit. It's plain fascism, where workers are cattle and the government gets all the value they add.
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
It's plain fascism, where workers are cattle...
Well, you wouldn't have 'Everyday Low Prices' without it..
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China's brand of socialism is bullshit. It's plain fascism...
China is a de-facto capitalist country, I hate how people still call the country socialist/communist when they have less industry regulations than the US. Also, Communism has nothing to do with despotism. It's the polar opposite in fact, with the elimination of capital gain to remove the accumulation of power (which is why Karl Marx had en element that could accumulate power removed from each stage of governmental principal).
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it's impossible to make communism work without despotism. the state dictates the entire economy
yes, in capitalist countries, wealth accumulation corrupts the government. but corruption exists in ALL types of government system, even communism
finally, simple corruption is a lot different than "we are in charge and tell you everything that happens in the economy, we dictate. and this status is directly prescribed in your government's constitution"
if you fight that, you are fighting the entire government. if yo
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Agreed.
Socialism, in the more pragmatic forms, such as it's practiced in the scandinavian countries for example, can work quite well, but communism, the utopia, is bullshit. Having a single answer to all questions is bullshit regardless of what that answer is, actually. (there's some people who claim "the market" is the answer to ALL questions, and that's -ALSO- bullshit)
Reality is complex. We need more than one answer. A *balance* is the trick.
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no, eivind is correct
free market fundamentalism and communism are two opposite extremes on a continuum. the most ideal government is capitalism with social safety nets, or socialism with a capitalist engine, take your pick. size of country has nothing to do with it
moderation, in all things
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it's impossible to make communism work without despotism. the state dictates the entire economy
Then what is Anarcho-Communism [wikimedia.org] supposed to be? Anarchist are certainly not the kind of people who would install a government, let alone a despotic one. To quote Peter Kropotkin:
"Anarchist Communism maintains that most valuable of all conquests -- individual liberty -- and moreover extends it and gives it a solid basis -- economic liberty -- without which political liberty is delusive; it does not ask the individual who has rejected god, the universal tyrant, god the king, and god the parliament, to give unto himself a god more terrible than any of the proceeding -- god the Community, or to abdicate upon its altar his [or her] independence, his [or her] will, his [or her] tastes, and to renew the vow of asceticism which he formally made before the crucified god. It says to him, on the contrary, 'No society is free so long as the individual is not so! . . .'"
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an idea a philosophy major with no real world experience with human nature dreams up is not a valid basis for society
not that that fact will stop you. nothing ever stops the regular low drumbeat of utopianists and their half-baked ideas from appearing and flaming out over the centuries. but have fun wasting years of your life and years of the lives of the well-meaning but gullible fools that listen to you for some reason
enthusiastic dreaming and good intentions are no replacement for a solid understanding o
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Well, that's been eliminated in the US. And been replaced with a much friendlier justice systems, that fails to discourage criminals. It's actually quite safe to walk down the streets at night in China.
I'm just sayin'.
Re:Seriously (Score:4, Informative)
You must be living in a different universe to the rest of us, because in this one there's a massive - and massively profitable - slave labour industry in US prisons.
so... (Score:2)
"It's plain fascism, where workers are cattle and the government gets all the value they add."
So... welcome to capitalism, China?
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Informative)
Just clicking away seems like a breeze compared to that.
Lets see what the article says...
"If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things,"
Yea, sounds super easy.
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Sounds like typical raid leader behaviour to me...
Competition at the top is TOUGH!
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Though it's not quite that bad, and certain degrees are worse than others.
However the GP's main problem, I all but guarantee, is due to he doesn't see what "people do these days" as work. I've heard the same thing over and over again from luddites, who want to force us back to an agrarian society. It's fucking insane.
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I don't consider busing tables or working retail to be "working hard". Where are the people going into the jobs that Mike Rowe shows around on Dirty Jobs? There is a vast need for welders, miners, industrial painters, etc that immigrants are filling because Americans want to work in a cube, a restaurant, or a store. Hard work don't have air conditioning.
When I were a lad I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down t'mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
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For some, its $200. For others, more or less. But the point is, making 30% of what you used to make (and not always right away, there may be gaps where you get no money) is hard to live on if you earn say . . . the average american paycheck.
Source: being unemployed for 7 months, and only receiving unemployment for 6 months.
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Unemployment is about 30% of what you made the past year.
If you're talking about "welfare (which actually refers to many programs)", you can't just cite one of them.
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I sometimes wonder why US companies outsource labour to china, when some jobs in the US have minimum wages as low as $4/hour. Most sane countries are at least triple that so people can you know.. eat and live.
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They were made to do it at night AFTER a day of hard labor.
Oh, come on. Making iPads isn't that hard.
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Why do you talk about ladyboys on every single post you make?
Because someone challenged him to [slashdot.org].
Get out of the closet.
He seems very much "out" about what he likes -- and I see no reason why someone who likes "ladyboys" is also required to like any other men, so no, it's not the same thing as homosexual.
I can see the response now -- "If that's what you have to tell yourself..." Except I'm actually straight (and would not like a ladyboy), just a little bit more educated about these things. That, and why should anyone be ashamed of homosexuality, either? It's not a matter of trying to pretend
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I see no reason why the two have to match. As for your analogy, it makes no sense. You say race and species, and then say 'antlion'... But regardless it doesn't work, because both race and species are physical things. A more sensible analogy would be between a mental identity and a physical identity. For example, a Christian Dwarf.
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The notion of gender and gender roles is a societal construct, and purely in the mind. The notion of sex is a physical, observable state. I see no reason why the two have to match
To prove this point, John Money, a psychologist, once had a sex change operation performed on a boy whose penis was accidentally destroyed in a failed circumcision. The boy never considered himself to be female, started to actually live as a boy again at the age of 15, later suffered from depression and finally commited suicide at the age of 34. His name was David Reimer [wikipedia.org].
It seems that "gender identity" is not influenced primarily by society, but rather is a result of the differences between the brains of me
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"He says he has a car in China..."
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I can't even count how many ways you butchered that.