Are Porn and Video Games Ruining a Generation? 1034
silentbrad writes "An editorial published at CNN is titled 'The Demise of Guys: How Videogames and Porn are Ruining a Generation.' It makes the sensationalized case that not only do game addiction and porn addiction share similar characteristics, but they're also both damaging to young men, destroying their ability to connect with women, and therefore threatening the future of our entire species. A response by IGN dissects the idea that pornography and videogames are pretty much the same thing. 'The article, by psychologist Philip G. Zimbardo and Nikita Duncan argues that young men are "hooked on arousal, sacrificing their schoolwork and relationships in the pursuit of getting a tech-based buzz."' Zimbardo, has danced this jig before. At the Long Beach TED conference last year he told a delighted audience that "guys are wiping out socially with girls and sexually with women." He added that young men have been so zombiefied by games and porn that they are unable to function in basic human interactions. "It's a social awkwardness like a stranger in a foreign land", he said. "They don't know what to say. They don't know what to do."'"
You can't blame games and porn (Score:5, Interesting)
Zimbardo's alarmist but there are real differences (Score:3, Interesting)
As the parent of a teenage boy, I have to say Zimbardo's not entirely wrong. It's just that he's sensationalizing the issue - which, to his credit, he admits in his TED talk.
These kids are different and the opposite sex reacts differently to them simply because of the incredible web of distance communication they swim in.
My generation went outside every day. I make my kids go outside every day, too - and you know what? They are all alone out there. They see more deer, fox and geese than other kids, and I live in the suburbs, less than a mile from a shopping complex! Nature's creeping back in, more every day, and the kids lurk inside like vampires out of the sun.
These days my kids finally have their own phones, so they rarely look up from the screens any more, even when they are outside. The only reason that took so long is that I insisted they legally buy their own phones and pay their own bills.
One of the weirdest things about all this, is that my kids are the most physically capable of kicking some other kids' asses in their whole peer group, and also the least likely to try. I'm pretty sure the first part of that is my doing, but I don't know about the second part.
That's right, we got Trouble! (Score:4, Interesting)
Right here in River City!
With a capital "T", and that rhymes with "P", and that stands for...
Perhaps he's on to /something/, perhaps not (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder if the neighbor's kids have ever gotten laid.
Them kids just sit in their rooms and play games, smoke weed, and play some more. There is some sort of employment they are involved with, but it doesn't look real stable or regular, certainly not a 9-5 job.
That said, I blame their mom. They are over privileged and simply have to pitch a fit to get what they want, whether it's a new computer part or a car to replace the last POS they bought.
I don't think it was games that did it, I think their mother's lack of parenting and failure to instill drive in them is to blame. Dad is whipped, so he's not much of an influence.
Teach kids right from wrong, learn them some work ethic, and give them opportunity to succeed, that's what I think is lacking.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Score:5, Interesting)
Hoo boy, where to start? First some disclosure -- I have both a 20-something son and daughter. Both have suffered heartaches much as I did. Neither has an easy time of it.
TFA makes the major assumption that things are worse now than earlier. I would like some proof. Yes, marriage and childbirth are being delayed, but I'm far from convinced this is a bad thing. Child rearing has been improved and battery reduced.
Second, this is all been laid at the feet of the young men. Yes, our species does seem to both require activity from the males and passivity from the females. But society has become much more complex, with many more choices in activities. SSmall wonder young men don't get it right. I have to remind my daughter that her beaux cannot read her mind, and need appropriate signs of encouragement. N ot things she thinks are encouragement, but things _they_ will interpret as such.
Finally, if it actually is that things are worse, why should it be that vidgames/pr0n are to blame? Handy whipping boi's? This gets into the vent or foment debate. But sidestepping it, consider something else: half of all young people grew up in split/divorced households. Might this not make them more than a bit leery ? The staggaring increase in divorce 1970-1990 is squarely on my generation's shoulders.
I still think we have not the foggiest clue of what technological contraception does to a society long-term. It changes attitudes towards children and many other things. We are still discovering, and won't even approach normality for another 100+ years.
Are men really the problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps its the women who should be watching more porn and playing more video games. Just sayin.
Re:Been there, done that (Score:5, Interesting)
The rock and roll generation are running the country now.
Re:Dilemma (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Dilemma (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll bite.
On one hand (har) yeah, staying home does make a lot of sense. Many women these days do seem sort of man-hating and entitled. My girlfriend and I have had almost all female roommates over the last 5 years and I will say that most of them have been incredibly socially awkward, or massive liars, psycho-emo-bitches, or pretentious hipster douches. We had a couple who were pretty cool, both hard-working and fairly sociable, but sane women seem to be in short supply (maybe renters are just inherently crazy?). Other female acquaintances have acted quite similar, though. I also ran into this while dating in the past. Many, many women seem to have some pretty wild expectations when it comes to guys, or maybe don't know how to express themselves effectively. Who knows. YES, it sucks.
**OTOH** Having a girlfriend who I click with is pretty awesome. My opinion is that it was worth the 10 years of dating/craziness before I met her. Part of me says that porn and games ARE ruining some people (I know at least 3 of them and it's very sad as we hit our early 30s and they still act like they did 10 years ago). It's an excuse to continue acting as before, feeling "safe", and basically not moving forward much as a person. It's an excuse not to go out and socialize, so the socially awkward people who in the past would all probably have a lot in common and have their OWN social group at a party are just staying home to play games, look at porn, and post on forums (eek). It gets the mind off other things, but isn't all that productive usually. The (semi) awkward geeks I know (including myself) used internet dating to great effect, though.
So, basically, yes. There are probably a LOT of women out there that are not Wife material (if that's what you're looking for), because let's be honest that the internet may be degrading social skills of EVERYONE. However, with some persistent courage, some exercise, and a bit of wit it's possible to have a LOT of fun with other women. Trust me, despite how they might act they are definitely looking to have a good time too (so why are they so stand-offish, nutso, mean? Treat yourself like chocolate cake. Not everyone wants chocolate cake RIGHT NOW, but they do in general and if you catch them at the right time they will, um, devour you. Metaphorically of course. In a good way. I hope.). So... many of them might be "crazy" but sex and good times can definitely be worth the trouble if it's all kept in perspective, and if you're creative it shouldn't cost very much money either. Then, once you meet someone really special, the ballgame changes again.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:alarmist and overgeneralized? yes. but also tru (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed. It's not the end of the world by any means, but as is often the case there's some truth in the middle, particularly for porn.
Futurama's Don't Date Robots [vimeo.com] gag wasn't entirely wrong. At the risk of reducing my gender to an object here, the impetus for men to enter into stable monogamist relationships with women is the companionship of and sex with a woman. Over time stronger long term emotional bonds develop, but in the short term the hook is what we can do to satisfy the seemingly bottomless well of male lust.
Porn changes that. I would like to think sex with a good woman is still better than doing it as a solo activity, but at the same time I know I can't compete with porn from a variety perspective (I can't be blonde, brunette, 18, a MILF, and asian all at the same time). And to be clear I do like a good (or dirty?) porno now and then myself - it's something I enjoy sharing with my fiancee - but it's something we can do together that strengthens our bond. I know he's also wanking it on the side (what man doesn't?) but at no point do I feel like he's avoiding the opportunity to have sex with me, in spite of the ups and downs of a relationship. But can a guy still have some kind sexual gratification without actually interacting with a woman? With the incredible amount of porn available these days (and increasingly complex toys), absolutely. And that's the issue.
At least from my perspective it's something that has already changed relationship dynamics. I've been fortune to meet a wonderful man that is my fiancee, but for many of my friends they have not been so lucky. We are all at an age where we should be settling down and forming those long term commitments, and while my friends are ready, the men they should be forming those commitments with are not. It's not that the men aren't there financially or even emotionally, but from the perspective of someone entering into one of those relationship, so many of the men simply don't see the need for a woman. They go do things together as guys while rarely interacting with the girls, and apparently that's all they ever need. And I absolutely think porn plays a part in that because their sexual needs are being met elsewhere.
Is porn bad? No, clearly not. But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and I believe we've reached that point. As things stand we're going to end up with a lot of awkward middle-agers in a couple of decades, who will have never formed a long term relationship either because they shortchanged the original impetus to do so (men), or because there were no partners for them (women).
TL;DR: Porn not all bad, but too much porn means men never settle down with women because they don't need sex.
Re:No, video games and porn are escapism. (Score:3, Interesting)
My exwife was a Wow addict.
Her teaching jobs became unstable and I couldn't find work after 2009 in the financial crises when I graduated college. Money and her spending 12 hours a day in Wow is why we got divorced.
And her using the men for masturbation was the final straw. Its not male specific at all when your life sucks.
However, I still talk to her kids and she no longer plays wow and is spending more time on her career and spending less money and being responsible. She is in a new healthy relationship after going cold turkey. So good for her! I am irritated as I wanted her to do that with me, but oh well time to move on I guess.
That is what the article is about. Taking responsibility is very hard when you are depressed and not used to a routine of waking up early and working super hard every day. I am unemployed right now and I fell a little bit too today and overslept. I guess its one form of escapism over the other but I do not play video games. I played SWTOR a little bit, but I would be a hypocrit dumping my exwife who I still cared for if I did the very things that destroyed her. The internet makes anyone tempted to slack off a very easy target.
Re:And the Female side of things? (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a cure for that. It's called an arrogant, nasty, "fuck you, I'll do what I want to" attitude towards everyone who tries to push that shit.
Courtesy is for those who deserve it, and not a tool to coerce others into submission.
Rational people merit rational debate. Irrational people merit ferocious hostility. Anyone trying to teach you to yield and submit has a motive. Unless they can kick your ass or you need to sell them something, piss on them.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:5, Interesting)
> Like we haven't had porn and games since Ugg
Matter of degree.
Acceptable amount of porn when I was in college was 2-3 penthouse/playboy mags and maybe a VHS stuffed into your sock drawer. Anything more was "creepy". Now one can jerk it 24/7 to whatever bizarre fetish and never look at the same porn twice.
Video games used to murder you in a couple minutes for 25 cents. Now they're ridiculously easy and are designed by psychologists to create false senses of accomplishment & hand out worthless trophies/awards/etc. 'Social' games in particular are closer to slot machines than Pac Man.
Does this make any difference? Studies show that modern teens are having less sex and starting later, which is seen as "good thing" despite the fact its probably due to social retardation. I dunno, there could be an intelligent discussion on this topic, but obviously not here at slashdot. Most of the posts are completely reactionary.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:1, Interesting)
So much win..... it's actually lose. ;-)
I consider this story good news (if true). Damaged guys means less competition for me to deal with when dating the single ladies (put a ring on it). LOL.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:5, Interesting)
As someone who has divorced a spouse over these 2 things I have to say it is a serious problem and it is not male related. It was harmful to herself and to our marriage and her kids.
Something is not considered a disorder until it majorily impacts their life in a negative way. We are all sad and hurt at times in life. Someone whose life is a mess because of it and is long term is now officially depressed as an example.
When I tried to play world of warcraft with her (I had a real life)the first thing I noticed is that many of the players were 22, 28, 30, and even 45 living at home with their parents. When they get money they would not invest it in a new suit for a job interview. They would be a wall mount plasma for their wow habbits until their elderly parents threatened to kick their ass to the curb if they did not unplug the ethernet and go get a fucking job!
This was not all of them but a sizable chunk. I have seen divorces of other players, people fired from work because they come in with very few hours of sleep. An my ex used it to escape her hectic financial and work stress. I made her not stay up late raiding so she could catch employers quicker etc.
Masturbation and sex is common in my situation, because she spent more time with her new male friends on wow than me and therefore, was more attracted to them while she blamed me for her life sucking. So out she went.
Millions play and it is easier to attack the messenger because it is anti male biased but I am telling you it is not. I have a friend who is a woman who plays to escape as well and I told her that her life is going to suck more unless she stops playing. We do not talk as much as a result :-)
Re:Dilemma (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm going to post this anon because I don't really want it following me around, but...
I've had at least one experience where I met a young woman who quite clearly had learned everything she knew about sex from porn (or maybe from boyfriends who watched a lot of porn, I don't know).
As in, she was really cute and sexy but when it came to the actual sex, it was all SLAMMA-SLAMMA-SLAMMA-SLAMMA, crazy position why are you doing that with your leg, you know what this is kinda starting to hurt, etc.
At one point I actually had to ask her, "Do you really like it like this?"
"Of course, baby, you're great."
"No... I mean... not too put too fine a point on it, but if we keep doing this, are you going to have an orgasm?"
"Oh."
"Yes?"
"No. I mean, I never do. It's fine."
"Never?"
"Well I sometimes do, when I'm by myself. But I never do when I'm with a guy."
"Do tell."
This was actually kinda troubling to me and it made it difficult to keep dating her. Like, she was obviously willing to go through this big performance and she wanted me to be aroused and attracted to her -- as if she was a porn star -- but every time we did it, it was like she was doing me a favor or something. I couldn't really understand what she got out of it, and equally important, when I tried to figure out what she must think I wanted out of sex, it was like staring through the eyes of an alien.
Re:Social exclusion (Score:4, Interesting)
Come on... That's just a BS copout.
It's more pervasive than you would think. The foundation of discrimination and anti-intellectualism is social exclusion, and our culture encourages social exclusion as a punishment for nonconformity. Kids don't necessarily want to lock themselves away, otherwise lonely people wouldn't suffer from depression. Their peers deem them unfit to belong in the group, and they find a temporary fix with video games, porn, etc. It's a societal problem, and all of us have to do a bit of introspection to figure out how to change it.
Re:quote (Score:5, Interesting)
The issue is not about dick meeting vagina - that will continue to happen. Its just who's dick and pussy is getting it - gang banger lowlife meets crackwhore bitch and they have lots of kids.
College boy's dick stays in his hand and college girl decides lesbianism, a room full of cats, or a overly-focussed career are a better option.
What happens to the western world after a few generations of this?
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:4, Interesting)
Clearly you haven't the foggiest idea about parenting. A childs brain is developing at an incredible rate and human contact is one of the key determining factors to that child's functional development. In places where Mother and Child remain in physical contact well into toddling, children are healthier, more fully developed, and significantly more mentally advanced. Now I do agree the current trend of bubble wrapping children in western societies until late puberty is in of itself a form of brain damage and leads to young adults who are poorly prepared for the challenges of life, naive, barely house broken and oddly self obsessed.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:2, Interesting)
The worst generation ever is the current generation of decision makers(55-65) who are crushing all beneath them in order to save their inflated pension pots.
If there is really a national or international "Demise of guys" among young men, it has a lot more to do with youth unemployment levels than video games or internet pornography.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:5, Interesting)
You were right on track, but you stopped your narration about half way through.
The other half of the story is that while relationships have changed, the criteria that are used to judge the worthiness of a mate haven't, both male and female. Sure, even ugly people find a mate, but for the most part, women still prefer men who are (a) well off and (b) physically attractive. Other elements of compatibility are often secondary at best. And men have their preferences slightly reversed because they primarily prefer women who are (a) physically attractive and (b) reasonably compatible.
If you're a geek, you can certainly get a girl if your geekiness can land you a good job and an income that women appreciate (e.g. silicon valley entrepreneurs). Of course, you can also get geek chicks who perhaps like you for your quirks and intelligence, but those are often in the minority.
However, if you are a gamer who is either not gainfully employed or is otherwise boring/unable to provide sufficient attention (because you're addicted to a video games), your ability to attract a potential mate drops significantly. And what more, often the result is that you're also not taking sufficient care of yourself to be considered physically attractive to a potential mate, and that too reduces your likelihood of finding a partner (either men or women). I personally have friends who were gainfully employed and who have pretty much screwed up their lives and relationships because of video games (usually WoW). But this is not limited to video games: one can be just as addicted to television and have much the same problem, but the only difference is that you're more likely to find a partner who is willing to sit and watch TV with you than someone who just wants to sit at a computer and collect virtual treasures and trophies.
Now, coming to porn, a lot of men often have a distorted perception of what women should look like and do because let's face it, most women (at least in the US) look nothing like the teen porn stars and are more often than not unwilling to perform the activities that are the typically seen in a porno. What more, most of the men also waste their testosterone on watching porn than, say, engaging in real world sex or working out (which often leads to real world sex). And let's face it, porn is an easy way out: it is much easier to watch porn than to go out there and find a real woman to have sex with. And it's certainly easier to watch porn than fix your relationship (hint: do a google search on women complaining about how their husbands are not interested in them but only watch porn).
So, what's the end result? Gamers can't get partners, or get partners that are relatively low on the totem pole. And people addicted to porn have a flawed worldview of women and sex, and don't pursue women actively - that often results in unhappiness in (or sometimes, a complete lack of) real world relationships.
Contrast this with the population that's not actively engaged in either, or at least to a limited extent. Their lives are certainly likely to be more interesting, and their odds of landing a partner increases. For instance, one could be "addicted" to say, working out, traveling, or reading, and any of those things would offer you advantages that would beat playing WoW until late at night. Not being addicted to porn would motivate you to go seek real women, and use your testosterone in getting a partner.
I work out quite regularly, and the one thing that I do is "raise" my testosterone by limiting my sexual activities for a week or two at a time. It makes me slightly aggressive, but it also greatly improves my sex life and my workout regimen. And using my free time to do productive activities like entrepreneurship and investment, interesting and fun activities like rock climbing or surfing, and even (relatively) mundane activities like reading, building lego contraptions, or fixing up my house makes my life infinitely interesting than someone who is hooked to a video game. That is not to say I don't pl
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:4, Interesting)
I work out quite regularly, and the one thing that I do is "raise" my testosterone by limiting my sexual activities for a week or two at a time. It makes me slightly aggressive, but it also greatly improves my sex life and my workout regimen. And using my free time to do productive activities like entrepreneurship and investment, interesting and fun activities like rock climbing or surfing, and even (relatively) mundane activities like reading, building lego contraptions, or fixing up my house makes my life infinitely interesting than someone who is hooked to a video game.
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Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:5, Interesting)
Well perhaps the mating, reproduction and caring model are wrong. Basically locked into gaming and the internet, they have become isolated from the current mass marketed model. To 'win' (why win exactly) the right women, you have to have the right job, own the right car and dress the right way, say the right things (at least in a token fashion), take her to the right places and buy her the right things (hmm, a lot of the current mass media marketing models revolves around buying the right stuff and has very little to do with act in the right way >60% divorce, need we say more).
How about a different model Mosuo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo [wikipedia.org], sounds like an interesting switch. Stick with your own family for live, no divorce, no separation, no single mothers living on their own. Really it might be the model is broken. Whilst marriage and divorce and marriage et al might suit capitalist greed and mass media narcissism, is it really the appropriate model.
Are young men liberated from mass media marketing not delivered in the gaming (no fit) and porn market (counter concept), just rebelling against the whole 'buying' into relationships thing and seeking women who actually do share the same lifestyle preferences. Is a modern mass media relationship more about being a consumer slaves than about a real relationship between men and women. Consider it is even worse from the women's perspective, ludicrous quantities of make up, mass painful removal of body hair, clothes and shoes as a life style, hair has to be treated like a living entity and all a huge cost.
Re:Well, if they're going to generalize, I am too (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm sorry, but in no place did I blame the kids. Every single thing I mentioned can in no reasonable way be misinterpreted as me claiming that it is the fault of the kids. I apologize if you have a reading comprehension failure, but everything in there is directly the fault of the parents. No, I'm not blaming the politicians at all, you would be right about that, but it is because the responsibility ultimately lies with the PARENTS for electing them and THEN putting up with bullshit.
I had more free time in school than kids these days would have, and I learned more than they seem to be learning these days. My parents had less free time than I had, but they learned more than I did. The problem is they've confused quality with quantity and are trying to force quantity to suffice for a continuing degradation of quality. My parents got quantity AND quality and were better off for it. I got a very slightly reduced quality with a moderate amount less quantity but students these days are getting quantity, quantity, quantity, and the quality has gone straight out the window.
A lot of our problem in my opinion is that our current notion of high school is fantastically out of check with the reality that it needs to serve. You learn more slowly as you get older, and yet we're waiting until these kids brains have matured to the point where absorbing new information is incredibly time consuming before we allow them to even start the beginnings of a career path. Most of our secondary education is pretty great, but its not getting to the kids at the proper age.
Also, I don't know where the hell you live, but where I am the kids growing up today are a mixed bag, as they have always been. What I do see that frightens me is a lot of young VERY intelligent minds going to absolute waste due to a failure of parents and the education system that is supposed to support them.
I don't put on any rose-tinted glasses, but more kids are becoming lazy, again, through no fault of their own. I know we had the same sort of slackers when I was going to school, but in my day it was 3-5 per class of 25-30. Now its 8-10 per class of 25-30, and sadly a good number of that 8-10 would likely have been at or near the top of their class 20 years ago.
If you don't believe me, go ask any teacher thats been teaching for more than 20 years. All these changes that are ruining generations started in the 80's and mostly came to full culmination and penetration in the late 90's/early 00's.