Arma III Developers Arrested In Greece For 'Spying' 162
An anonymous reader writes "Kotaku reports that two employees of Bohemia Interactive have been arrested while on a photo-tour of the Greek island of Limnos, on charges of spying. The developers were taking reference photos for the upcoming military simulation game Arma III, which is to feature Limnos as it's primary setting, when they were arrested (Google translation of Greek original)."
Spying? Really? (Score:2)
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
There have been similar incidents in the past in Greece involving people taking photos of military aircraft, air bases etc. It's illegal in Greece to photograph military property, and if you do so arrest is likely. With Arma being a military game, my guess is these guys were doing exactly this, and should have known better.
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:4, Funny)
What's that? No, we will not spot you airfare to come over here and arrest Larry and Sergei. And don't even try to mail that wooden horse to Mountain View.
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:4, Funny)
Do you really think they could afford THAT postage??
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In any case, they now have a reference for goon behavior they can also include in the game.
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"There is no such thing as bad publicity"
- Brendan Behan
Who says they didn't know better?
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No it's not. You can photograph military property in the United States.
You can't photograph certain objects or certain areas, but in general you wouldn't be allowed inside those areas or near those objects to begin with unless you had clearance to do so.
I've got a photograph of what was the Network Control Center at Kadena Air Base hanging on the wall (it's a group shot of my coworkers when I was stationed there, presented to me by our shop superintendant, a Senior Master Sergeant). I've got several more
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
Czechs and getting footage of a military base, they'd sure be instantly classified as terrorists.
Eh? The Czech Republic is an honored member of NATO. The U.S. has already sworn to shed its own blood and spend its own treasury to defend it. One NATO member spying on another is none of the U. S. 's business. Hell, one NATO member at war with another [wikipedia.org] is almost none of the U. S.'s business, except for the diplomatic pressure to encourage them to stop.
What pure made up bull output. (Score:4, Insightful)
>Eh?
Yes, the OP is right.
> The Czech Republic is an honored member of NATO.
Czechosolovakia has won no honors in NATO. http://tinyurl.com/9v6ec6b [tinyurl.com]
> The U.S. has already sworn to shed its own blood and spend its own treasury to defend it.
The U.S. has not sworn to shed its own blood or spend its own treasury to defend it. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm [nato.int]
>One NATO member spying on another is none of the U.S.'s business,
Then in that case your previous statement falls. Either it IS the U.S. and other NATO member states' business in which case it IS the U.S.'s business OR it's none of anyone else's business in which case the whole falacious comment about blood and treasury (false as it is) is inapplicable.
>except for the diplomatic pressure...
Yeah you made that up for your convenience. I've shown you the NATO charter. Please
demonstrate where it says any of that.
Such rabid conflictory justification of "The US Must Shed Blood and Treasury" but oh wait "It's none of the US business" but wait "The US should exert diplomatic pressure."
I see the horns waggling and I'm not stepping in your words.
E
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Czech membership has nothing to do with it since the Czech government (probably) didn't sanction this "espionage"
Without that backing you are just a rogue citizen, and thus qualify for labelling as a terrorist.
If the Czech goverment WAS behind it, and not just Czech citzens, that would change things and it might be considered an act of war or something. But maverick citizens acting without state backing are not immune from being labelled as terrorists.
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And any country that doesn't deserves the invasion it soon receives.
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If this were in the US, they'd surely being be detained and become permanent residents of guantanamo bay. Seeing as how their Czechs and getting footage of a military base, they'd sure be instantly classified as terrorists.
Yeah, because that's totally happened like a thousand times already. They're throwing peope into Guantanamo for just about anything these days. Or they aren't.
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Greece often arrests people for taking photos of things which may have some public security interest. They arrest plane spotters from time to time and it sometimes reaches the British news.
It's not really very interesting except to note that photography isn't really a fundamental human right and, outside the US and to a lesser extent the UK, you need to mind local law. If the business concerned didn't even do this little bit of research then I question how good the game is going to be - but the gap between
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Funny)
Surely if it were dissolved then it would turn into an EU solution.
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:4, Funny)
Or rather, it would be a solution of Greece in EU.
Although I have to wonder about how well the EU works as a solvent... they don't seem particularly solvent to me...
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Greece bonds are weak but slow-moving - in economic jargon, "slippery".
And, contrary to Art.3(3) TEU [wikisource.org], everyone else has a low rate of interest.
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The German court will issue a ruling tomorrow that may "break the camels back" on the Greek issue of debt repayments.
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Nature is not a sentient being and it does not gift anything to anyone.
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>>>Nature is not a sentient being
Didn't say it was. But nevertheless nature has given us many things. Such as our bodies. And sunlight.
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Greece has fairly high military spending compared to the size of its economy even pre-collapse. They were doing an arms race with Turkey but I have no idea how that's developing with the country's current financial problems.
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1) Hypothetically remembering something perfectly;
2) Hypothetically making perfectly photorealistic drawings;
3) Taking a photograph.
It seems to me that only the first would be covered unconditionally by a fundamental human right as understood by international law. Consider:
- ECHR Art.8: freedom of thought;
- it wouldn't be admissible under Anglo-Saxon criminal law: there is no crime without actus reus, and there is "No punishment without law" (Art.7 ECHR).
The second would be covered under freedom of expressi
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
They were taking photographs of a military installation that they intended to reproduce inside Arma III. That almost certainly means moderately detailed shots of buildings, security measures, and military personal, which is illegal in some (most? all?) countries.
Note: in the US, you can take pictures of aircraft or historical buildings, but not restricted areas. The point is to prevent surveillance intended to find weaknesses in security that can be exploited, aka "casing the joint". Pretty standard practice in the military. They should have definitely have asked for permission first.
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
>>>Note: in the US, you can take pictures of aircraft or historical buildings, but not restricted areas. The point is to prevent surveillance intended to find weaknesses in security that can be exploited, aka "casing the joint". Pretty standard practice in the military.
In the U.S. the courts have ruled again-and-again that people may not be forbidden from recording that which is in public view. ("Per the first amendment citizens have a right to record the activities of their government officials in public areas." and "There is no expectation of privacy when in public view.") It is why places like Area 51 are surrounded by miles and miles of "buffer zone" so nobody can get close enough to see the place.
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That's why cops are confiscating cameras in public places and forbid photographing and video recording in the U.S.
You have a point, but it's still legal to take those pictures, and once you get to court, you at least don't get sent to prison for it.
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So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
TFA is not thin at all. It states that the men were caught with photographs of military installations. I would wager that most countries have laws against photographic military bases, and I'm not surprised that Greece do. This was just a really stupid thing to do.
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This was just a really stupid thing to do.
No, the really (and only) stupid thing was getting caught.
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
being greek, i've read some of the original articles. The problem is, they were taking photographs and videotaping active military bases. I'm pretty sure, the guys are not spies but gathering intelligence on foreign military installations constitutes spying in most of the countries i know
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I'm going to go with "this should be common sense NOT to do this without local government approval and fore knowledge in today's charged political climate."
It should be ESPECIALLY obvious since this is a war/battle/fighting simulation where the setting is a specific (not imaginary/fantasy) location being simulated.
I feel sorry for the people who were arrested -- they were probably not the decision makers. If they were the decision makers, they deserve what they got. If they are not the decision makers, wh
Re:Spying? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
This shouldn't be all that surprising. I'm not familiar with Greek law but in the US one can only be certain that photographing a military installation is legal if one has written authorization from the base commander. See here [gpo.gov]. Speaking from personal experience, if one were to stop on US Route 2 heading through North Dakota, photograph one of the Minuteman nuclear missile launch facilities just a few yards off the road, a visit from Minot Airforce Base security is quite likely. Again, speaking from personal experience, these security personnel have brand new shiny M-4s (not those beat up ones from the sandbox) and a .30 cal machine gun mounted on their HUMVEE. If one were to continue photographing, this is once again from personal experience, they will call the sheriff's deputy (who happens to be a serious hottie) and she will threaten arrest for disorderly conduct.
My guess is that the Minuteman launch facilities are considered off limits. They have signs which say "Restricted Area" and federal statute considers these areas off limits in terms of photography. According to statute, it seems that even photographing these area from a distance, such as while standing on a publicly traveled way such as US Route 2, is likely prohibited. The signs on the nuclear launch facilities say they will shoot you if you actually climb the fence. There are hundreds of these facilities across northwest North Dakota. It seems to me that the sheer number of launch facilities would make it difficult for a tourist to photographically document their vacation to beautiful North Dakota.
I don't see why it's surprising that other countries have similar laws in place
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they will call the sheriff's deputy (who happens to be a serious hottie) and she will threaten arrest for disorderly conduct.
So what, you're encouraging us to go to North Dakota and photograph the missile launch facilities from US Route 2?
Besides, we all know that's just for show, and the real missiles are underneath Manhattan.
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Seriously hottie got my attention. Got an address?
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Creep.
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Really? (Score:3)
Really? Every Real Estate Developer does the same thing in Greece, so that they can deduct the vacation from their taxes.
Usually they also invite local people to dinner to ask them how they like their own houses, then they can also deduct the restaurants.
That's where the money comes from, Greeks, from us taxpayers!
But I guess the military has a bit of a paranoiac streak everywhere.
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But I guess the military has a bit of a paranoiac streak everywhere.
Thats the part I don't get. Does Greece think the Persian Empire is going to invade again or is the Macedonians again?
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You must be joking. Turkey claims half the Aegean and illegally militarily occupies half of Cyprus, and you are poking fun at them
for wanting to defend their land?
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History is written by the victor ... hence a couple of million of evil Greeks thrown out of minor Asia. All the historical sights now being "Roman". The pogrom in the 50s against the Greeks in what is now Istanbul, The expulsion of the Greeks from Northern Cyprus, the Pontian genocide. That's only the Greeks. Check the Kurds, the Armenians and effectively most races in Turkey. Sure ... try calling the Armenian Genocide such in Turkey ... and off you go to the slammer. Where do you think all the Kurds in t
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From what i understand, they have something of an asymmetric rivalry with Turkey.
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It could be Germany and to a lesser extent Italy.
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We're trying to get RID of Greece, not take it.
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Well, last time I checked you didn't really want it in WW2 either but the British decided they were going to support the Greeks and so you kind of had to take it.
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Limnos is the most fortified Greek island and a huge military outpost. What did they expect exactly?
They should have asked. (Score:1)
Re:They should have asked. (Score:4, Interesting)
Truly a lack of intuition.
I spent an entire summer plotting out routes of houses to photograph based on an old database of the trees that were sold there 15+ years ago as I was building a photo library of mature trees and large shrubs.
This has nothing to to do with any sort of military installation and I thought it was pretty straightforward that I would knock of the doors, identify myself (many times it was still the same owners from 15+ years ago and they were delighted to see me), and ask permission.
Why the hell would you go to another country and take photographs of military facilities? That is just a complete lapse of judgement.
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Two photographers got arrested, that's not even remotely enough to stop the game's development.
Not surprising (Score:2)
Documenting military installations is illegal in every country.
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As my friends in Wikipedia
Wikipedia has a friending feature now also? Please... make it stop... I am sick of having so many friends.
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they were spying (Score:1)
The Government of Greece does not permit the photographing of military installations; violators are subject to arrest. So they were arrested. Not really surprising.
No Cameras (Score:1)
I'll remember not to take my camera (Score:2)
Re:No Cameras (Score:5, Informative)
Feel free to take cameras with you and take pictures of the beautiful scenery, monuments and people. When however, you go outside military facilities that have big "NO PHOTOGRAPHY ALLOWED" signs (in english and actual no camera icons in case you don't know english) and start taking detailed photographs with your DSLR and 70-300 lens, expect to be arrested if caught. The devs should absolutely have requested a license to do it, they didn't care to do it or got caught in the bureaucracy that is to be expected with these affairs, they got arrested for breaking the law. If they were caught doing that in the US (say, outside Nellis AFB), I wonder what would have happened to them.
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Feel free to take cameras with you and take pictures of the beautiful scenery, monuments and people.
Me, I would rather set up an international web site collecting and assorting recent photographs of as many Greek military installations as possible. You know, the Streisand Effect. And hand-help DSLRs are not very clandestine. You can do much better today. A Micro Four Thirds camera with a suitable lens peeking out of a hole on the side of your backpack, perhaps?
:If they were caught doing that in the US (say, outside Nellis AFB), I wonder what would have happened to them.
Uhm...nothing?
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If they were caught doing that in the US (say, outside Nellis AFB), I wonder what would have happened to them.
I gather it happens rather frequently around Area 51 which is near Nellis AFB. According to Wikipedia, typical punishments are a $600 fine and special attention from the FBI, but I imagine the punishment would be more severe, if you photographed Elvis and some Greys looking over the latest prototype aircraft.
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Some people _have_ gone missing for periods of time and had odd changes in their behavior afterwards
That's not useful information, unless their activities make them more likely to go missing for periods of time and experience odd changes in behavior than normal. For example, one could say the same of Slashdot, there's probably a number of Slashdotters who have done the above at one time or another.
I know what the first mission will be (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I know what the first mission will be (Score:5, Funny)
If they don't add that as an Easter Egg, they should all be arrested.
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Busting the developers out of jail
If I were Bohemia Interactive, after this, I would change the player's side into Turks and adjust the missions accordingly. :o)
Not really the first time in Greece (Score:2, Informative)
They tend to be jumpy about photographers near military installations. (they still seem to anticipate a Turkish invasion at any moment)
Like the plane-spotters they arrested 11 years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1953654.stm
Can I get freedom fries with my gyro? (Score:2, Funny)
Well, with all the austerity going on there, they must be really bored, sort of how the computers on Magrathea take potshots at passing spacecraft. I mean, c'mon, like actual spies are going to stand there obviously taking snapshots. Have they not see a James Bond film? Spies have cameras hidden in their hats and genitals.
And, besides, if a photo of your installation renders it vulnerable, yer doin' it wrong. Unless the military base has a soul... maybe the camera is stealing the military base's soul?
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Well, with all the austerity going on there, they must be really bored, sort of how the computers on Magrathea...
Magrathea? Magrathea! -- Zaphod
Not much data in the article, but maybe not crazy (Score:2)
The article claims they were photographing military installations. That could be anything from a snapshot that happens to include a military base to skirting the border of the thing and taking photos from every conceivable angle to get pictures of things clearly meant not to be public to actually wandering around the installation photographic everything in sight.
The first one shouldn't cause anyone any concern. The second one I could see as being something a government could legitimately seek to limit, but
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If you can see critical stuff on a military base just by creeping around the perimeter then it's a pretty shity base. If someone can learn something by watching your changing of the guard that will permit them to penetrate your facility, then you are incompetent shitwads and don't deserve to be guarding a shoebox. Etc.
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Sure. I sympathize with the sentiment to some extent, but even idiots deserve some privacy.
Greece has a military? (Score:2)
I mean c'mon, I can't imagine there are a lot of big secrets they are trying to protect.
stupid and disrespectful people (Score:1)
I am a Greek - those 2 people are stupid! ... They don't know English, German, French, or all the other languages in the signs with the "NO PHOTOS" ... the fucking picture of the camera in the circle with the X how they can't understand it ... (OR RESPECT IT).
They don't know Greek
The Greek police arrested them for taking photos of military installations, and they confessed that they had the photos (claiming it was for enhancing the next version of the game !!!).
This island, in case of war with our beloved n
Where is the base? (Score:2)
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There are numerous of military units stationed on the island. See http://tinyurl.com/d432wdm (88th Military Command) for a list - not including air or naval forces.
And yes, there are signs around every military installtion in Greece that forbid photography. Ignoring them and then crying foul is just stupid. Especially when you claim (http://www.arma3.com/limnos-researching-the-area-of-operation/) that:
Transferring the real-life Limnos to your monitors is not just a part of devel
This has happened before (Score:2)
This has happened before. A group of British plane spotters were convicted of spying and sentenced to 3 years in jail. It doesn't seem to have occured to the Greek military that real spies will be a little more discrete in their methods.
BBC news article [bbc.co.uk]
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It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that real spies would be likely to have a plausible explanation for what they are doing and sometimes get caught.
There might be "James Bonds" running around that are infallible and undetectable, but the majority of "spies" would actually be cannon fodder - send enough of them and eventually a few would get caught. And then, of course, they have to protest their innocence (never admit to being a spy if you don't want to spend your WHOLE LIFE in prison, if you're that
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Just because you're a "spy" doesn't mean you're not in a group of plane-spotters that plan a trip to Greece. Hell, sounds like a perfect persona to assume to me.
Put yourself in the shoes of the spy. Your choices are
Plan A: be conspicuous. Run a high risk of being stopped, but have a story and hope you can bluff your way out.
Plan B: be discrete. Try to avoid being stopped, although if you are caught you are doomed.
Opting for Plan A means you have to infiltrate a plane-spotting group. Then you have to persuade the group to go to the base you're interested in. When you get there you can only take pictures consistent with being a plane spotter, or your cover st
Normal reaction (Score:4, Informative)
Most of the commentators here are speaking out of their asses. Let me tell you somethings, being greek and all.
First of all ,Limnos is one of the Greek islands that is very close to Turkey. There have been a lot of incidents in the past there. Maybe the whole point of the clashes were moot, maybe not, but i can't blame the officials for being extra carefull.
Secondly, personally i believe that the guys did not mean harm. But, they were photographing and videotaping active military camps. Sure there's satellite photos of everything on the island on google maps, but gathering intelligence on military installations is one of the most basic espionage actions. If that's not spying, i don't know what is.
Finally, for all those talking about tourists and tourist activities, that's a whole lot of hors*shit. Next time you decide to come for vacations, try to stay at the beach. The military bases are off limits.
Long Island (Score:2)
If this were Long Island, they would be in Gitmo by now.
Just maybe.... (Score:2)
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Nope. [bistudio.com]
So stupid.... (Score:2)
This is where you see the level of ingenuity....being that they are developers, they forgot that they could have saved a whole lot of time and effort and traveling expenses, and just used google's streetview!
Greek point of view (Score:2, Insightful)
According to Greek media, the devs arrested had recordings of:
* An MM-40 Exocet Block II installation (anti-ship missile)
* The 130th Battle Squadron
* A radar installation
* Army base and barracks.
Media report that the military authorities were particularly concerned that the data captured from the devs showed no only the position of these installations and the type of equipment they contained, but also things like access routes, alternative routes, fuel depots etc.
It is also common knowledge that Greece's pr
Slam Dunk Coming! (Score:3)
BAM! Aww take that Greece! It's funny because they're poor!
Oh. Don't look like that. Here's a quarter, go buy a house in Greece!
BAM! Oh! The crowd goes wild!
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First you fight it, then you become it.
Re:wha why? (Score:5, Informative)
You leave out the part where the 'scenery' they were taking pictures of happened to be a military installation. No granted, I think espionage charges for such a thing are more than a little ridiculous (and I doubt that is what they'll actually be charged for) but just about every nation on the planet has laws against photographing their military bases.
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Then why call it 'espionage' if that isn't what they'll be charged for? Are the charges ridiculous or are you justifying the arrests because the laws exist? The former I agree with, but the latter is circular reasoning (the law is just because the law exists because it is just because...).
In free countries, the laws that do get passed make sense and the punishments fit, making charge stacking pointless and counterproductive.. In current trends, the states keep ramping up the punishments to the point of jayw
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Then why call it 'espionage' if that isn't what they'll be charged for? Are the charges ridiculous or are you justifying the arrests because the laws exist? The former I agree with, but the latter is circular reasoning (the law is just because the law exists because it is just because...).
In free countries, the laws that do get passed make sense and the punishments fit, making charge stacking pointless and counterproductive.. In current trends, the states keep ramping up the punishments to the point of jaywalking = death to prop up political campaigns, and the prosecutors (or their equivalents) stack the charges as much as they can get away with. How long before cameras are covered as 'automatic weapons' under the law? Watch.. I'll bet it'll happen eventually.
they're greeks, why call anything something. they just want some of that game developer rockstar money.
and maybe, just maybe the photos would have actually shown that they were skimming from the budget.
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haha.. maybe who knows.
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The guy who reviews all the evidence in detail and decides what a person could reasonable be convicted of is very often not the person making the arrest, or even the decision to arrest. Even in cases where it is the same person, that person could choose to make an argument for arrest based on the worst-possible charge, then downgrade it later. I expect this is especially true when there's a time limit to make the arrest (i.e. the tourists could leave).
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I wonder how quick these sorts of people would change that behavior if it was their reputations on the line instead of the arrested? After all, while this goes down, the names of the defendants are the ones being trashed in the media. Happens here in america all the time. Timelimits are not a good reason to shortchange justice.
If it's alright for the state to take pictures of us in public, then I see no problem with us taking pictures of objects in that same public space, including military installations..
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I think Britain does this better, as IIRC the names of those arrested aren't released to the public. This helps prevent the reputation damage caused by false arrest.
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I never said america was a free country.. at least not these days.
Re:wha why? (Score:4, Informative)
You may doubt it, but I do not. I took over nearly two year for a group of tourist plane spotters to be acquitted of espionage charges [bbc.co.uk] in 2001. At the initial process 8 of that group were convicted to three years in jail.
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What? So much for the 'free' western world.
Greece, and "free"? For a country so big on concentration camps, prison camps and the like, this is nothing terribly surprising.
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So? Perhaps they wanted to see how infared equipment should behave under such conditions? If they're using the scenery for a campaign, they would need to know details like this because Arma is supposed to be a highly realistic military simulator.
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Seems they were taking pictures of the military bases. They're trying to recreate the island as a whole for a military simulator, not just grab some iconic pictures to slot into the decorated corridor of your average military shooter game.
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Greece supposedly has corruption problems, do the laws properly catch people who can pay the policeman? The govt has even stated that without all the tax evasion they wouldn't be in debt right now.
Anyway, I don't think they need this as a publicity boost because that whole DayZ craze gave them waaaaaaaay more of a boost.
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Slightly overkill of a response in my opinion...but that's just me.
If your security is so bad that people standing in a public place can photograph something That Which Must Not Be Seen then your country should really be sold to the highest bidder, who presumably will be a little more competent.