Getting Misogyny, Racism and Homophobia Out of Gaming 704
An anonymous reader writes "A central theme for several talks at this week's Game Developers Conference has been how to deal with the abuse generated by a small segment of gamers. BioWare's Manveer Heir says he wants the industry to stop being scared of challenging the most outspoken and vituperative members of the gaming community. His GDC talk focused on 'misogyny, sexism, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, queerphobia and other types of social injustice.' He said, 'We should use the ability of our medium to show players the issues first-hand, or give them a unique understanding of the issues and complexities by crafting game mechanics along with narrative components that result in dynamics of play that create meaning for the player in ways that other media isn't capable of.' Meanwhile, Adam Orth, who became the center of an internet hatestorm last year after an offhand comment about always-online DRM, said game developers should make an effort to encourage their playerbase to behave in a more civilized manner."
Disable player chat (Score:5, Funny)
That's the quickest way.
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He's talking about the messages baked into the game by the developer, not those from the interactions with other players. He's also not limiting his comments to multi player games.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:4, Insightful)
Down that path lies perdition. I'll explain:
The moment you start "cleaning up" the design and atmosphere of a game, you open the door to censorship, even if self-imposed.
While ordinarily clearing such things out of a given game is, on the surface, a laudable goal, there's one great big problem: There is no objective definition and delineation of terms like "mysogyny", "racism", or "homophobia". I have seen people called "racist" point-blank because they disagreed with the president's policies, or called "homophobic" because they believe homosexual activity to be a moral wrong (though not a crime, or cause to hate someone, or etc).
Given this, first, okay, you clear out the obvious stuff. But then some loudmouthed political action group starts squealing about things which kinda-sorta-might-count, but likely don't. Next thing you know, you're having to nerf the game entirely, and are stuck with an ever-decreasing list of genres, or wildly inaccurate ones just to satisfy the perpetually-offended.
Screw it - let the market decide: If a game is truly offensive, word will get out and it won't be bought, leading to its failure. No one is forcing anyone to buy a given game, FFS.
PS: (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously - would anyone have even bothered with titles like DOAX or Duke Nuke'Em if it didn't have the content it had?
They both sold like effing mad... I'll leave it up to the reader to decide why they think that is.
huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, the "market" is going to magically erase misogyny in gaming, because here's these games that sold super well for being misogynist.
Re:huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
...neither of them stack up to "Leisure Suit Larry". Funny thing is, I know of more women who bought that particular game then men, mostly because it was funnier than hell.
But then, the ladies in question weren't overly-sensitive professional victims, either.
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*sigh* Why does Slashdot always seem to miss the point?
Games like the Larry series are mostly fine. They are done in good taste, genuinely funny and enjoyable for both sexes. The problem, as TFA points out, is with the relatively small number of people who play online games and spew racist, homophobic and misogynistic abuse. As the GP points out you end up blocking all chat to get rid of it. Why can't I play COD4 online without being called a fag?
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Is it really something that needs eliminating? I'm reminded of that time Mr. Garrison said he doesn't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die. It's a joke, and it's funny.
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Actually what's generally known about the more primitive societies is that they tended to be more matriarchal. Along with patriarchal societies came monogamy (something women tend to want more than men do, ironically) and fairness was codified (aka laws.)
Indeed, most animals are very matriarchal as well.
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Heir’s argument went on to debunk studies which claim that games with female protagonists are doomed to have poor sales. He said that he believes such studies, including one which Polygon’s Ben Kuchera published during his time writing for the now defunct Penny Arcade Report, rely on "cherry-picked, inconclusive data."
"When a game starring a woman comes out," Heir said, "the marketing and the development spends are simply less, which can overall impact the quality of the game and [its] success, which skews the numbers in the negative."
Screw this. If there's a woman in the game, she better be hot or I'm not buying the game. These guys are selling fantasy. I want my fantasy hot and sexy, otherwise I'll go watch porn and not bother with the stupid game play, or obnoxious time-sink quests or the obnoxious early teen goofs who get off on being jerks. My life is full of more than enough reality, I want to buy some misogyny and sexism, not some PC-BS. This is what keeps me sane and provides a catharsis so I don't do this stuff in real lif
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He's talking about the messages baked into the game by the developer, not those from the interactions with other players. He's also not limiting his comments to multi player games.
How about we just play a bunch of movies and commercials from the good ol' days (1950's and before) where this sort of stuff was the norm.
look kids, a woman, and see how happy she is with a new vacuum cleaner!
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Insightful)
AMC did that, they called it "Mad Men" and women loved it. Go figure.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, there's a lot in Mad Men about the women of that era heroically dealing with the crap that's shoveled at them day after day. It's kind of the major theme of the series, actually. So yeah, women loved it, but not because it was misogynistic.
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As opposed to today's commercials and tv programs where she's the 'empowered' bitch and he's the insipid, incompetent little pantywaist? I fail to see the improvement. When she does it, she's 'empowered', and when he does it, he's a bastard... such 'equality'.
Axe (Score:4, Insightful)
As opposed to the Axe cologne [theflatteringman.com], Hanes underwear etc guys who are of course of perfectly average build?
Yes, sexy women in ads sell... guess what, so do sexy guys. Very few ads with models are realistic in terms of average body/muscle/fat mass.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Insightful)
If we are to claim that games are an art form akin to books, movies, poetry, music, and painting, then we have to accept that art often is designed to make us uncomfortable. Often, an artist calls attention to an issue by exploring it. For example, you have a gay protagonist who struggles with his own inner lack of acceptance and self-confidence as well as fears of how society views him. You include a scene where the gay guy gets beat up because he is gay. A successful artist would establish empathy between the character and the player, causing the player to question the moral implications of the scenario. Maybe he was ok with beating up gay guys before, but now he has established a bond with this character and thus becomes uncomfortable with the scene and questions long held beliefs?
It is not about turning the games into something like Sesame Street or Magical Friendship Land where we watch everyone get along. The stories that resonate the deepest with us are the stories that hit the closest to home. It is ok to portray the struggle of social injustice. To try to pretend that it does not exist is foolish and will not send a message other than "look how PC". Instead it is about creating a story that feels real, causes us to empathize with the characters, and thus question our own personal prejudices.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I gather at least some of the complaints about the game industry is that the scenario you've outlined doesn't ever happen. Instead, openly gay characters are rare to the point of nonexistent in games. The closest we come is the androgynous characters of Japanese-made games. On rare occasions, one of those androgynous characters turns out to be a gay guy—in the Japanese version. When the game is translated for the US audience, somehow that aspect of the character mysteriously vanishes. Similarly,
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In my mind both of these 'artists' are disgusting and are serving no purpose to promoting beneficial forward progress in our society.
The freedom to express oneself how one wants despite people thinking that it "serves no purpose to promoting beneficial forward progress in our society" IS a benefit in and of itself. It's a good thing for society that people are allowed to do that.
all gaming (Score:3)
GP's solution..."Disable player chat" is a classic example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"
It's a problem in our industry, thinking this way, b/c it's ridiculous. Turning it off isn't a "fix" and it never will be.
I don't know about TFA...but as you say:
I'm saying it's all part of the same thing. idk, maybe you and TFA
The geek in denial. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sound more like feminist victimization rehashed...
Sounds to me more like game developers are thinking long and hard about what is happening elsewhere in the entertainment industry.
["Frozen"] took the No. 13 spot on the all-time worldwide box office list this week, passing "Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace" and "Jurassic Park."
It's been a big week for "Frozen," which has been in the top ten at the box office in the U.S. and Canada for 17 weeks.
On Wednesday, Disney said that "Frozen" had sold 3.2 million DVD and Blu-Rays on Tuesday, becoming one of the biggest home entertainment debuts in recent years.
Disney chairman and chief executive Robert Iger told shareholders Tuesday that "Frozen" was on pace to be the most successful animated film in history, surpassing "Toy Story 3," which ranks No. 11 on the all-time list with $1.063 billion.
And thanks to its ubiquitous anthem "Let it Go," the soundtrack has sold over 1.4 million albums in the U.S. It has also been streamed more than 100 million times on Spotify.
'Frozen' surpasses 'Jurassic Park' on all-time box office list [chicagotribune.com]
In Blu-Ray sales at Amazon, "Frozen" is #1, "Catching Fire" #2 and "Gravity" in 3D #10.
The point being that ditching gender stereotypes in mass media can have a very big financial payoff. If it means ditching the foul mouthed, misogynistic and eternally adolescent male audience that perpetuates these stereotypes, that can be a price worth paying.
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Studio Ghibli definitely has a thing about that and made a lot of fine films with universal appeal (although Disney just did not know what hit them with "Princess Mononoko" so limited the international distribution for years), but in anime there are also a lot with male heroes.
To be cynical a lot of the ones with heroines is probably a marketing thing - if you want to have family appeal you want something that's going to appeal to the mother to get her t
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Are you seriously trying to argue the merit of a film based on ticket sales? Or about which hole some character in the film likes to fuck?
You haven't a clue about the content or themes of "Frozen," "The Hunger Games" trilogy or "Gravity."
"The Art of Frozen," out of print, and in fine condition, sells at the rare book price of $100. The sheet music for "Frozen" is #49 in book sales at Amazon, #1 in all categories of music book sales at Amazon, Frozen: Music from the Motion Picture Soundtrack [amazon.com]
"Frozen" in 3D is #7 in DVD and Blu-Ray sales at Amazon.co.uk. Frozen [Blu-ray 3D + Blu-ray] [Region Free] [amazon.co.uk]
3D, remember, is a video technology the geek
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You do know that feminism isn't about hating on men or trying to mooch off society right? Evidently you don't.
Well that is because there is empirical evidence to the contrary.
Further: (Score:4, Insightful)
Mommying game content does not address the actual problem (abject stupidity), and creates another one: the watering down of content that resembles the world you thought up.
Also, game developers, take note: People mostly only have a very low count of legitimate mommies. Please do not think even for a moment that it is appropriate that you decide outsiders can, or should, fill that role in limiting your creative output. In architecting a game, please think of yourself as a god, responsible to no one, and without concern for who thinks what about whatever, except as you want them to. That's *much* better: we call this creative freedom, and good grief, do I ever want you to have it. You, and writers, and all other artists.
If you want to support (fill in group), by all means do so. Give them money, time, bags of cat food, speak to them, speak at their outreach events if they think you have something to contribute, but do not, under any circumstances, decide those groups have the chops to decide what's good for everyone else and limit what you actually want to do accordingly.
Aside from the obvious problems, this trend has very dark mirrors we can see all around us; for instance, fox news thinks its perfectly ok to distort the living heck out of any sane narrative of events, past, present or future, and then bottle-feed it to their audience.
If you want to make a game, just make the game. Don't second guess anyone, don't try to be the obedient dog of the morality police or the ethical police or the politically correct police or the religious police or the atheist police... just build your world the way you think you want it and see if people like it.
We have plenty of individuals and groups vying for the position of mommy already. Please don't add to this problem. And it is, most assuredly, a problem.
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You misunderstand the problem
Actually I think you are the one who misunderstands the problem. There is no real problem. Bioware is well known as the LGBT developer. That's what they do now. They cater to the lesbian audience. It's basically lesbian romance fiction with some boring combat thrown in. This article is just marketing for them. Trying to drum up business by claiming that all other developers should be exactly like them and only hire lesbian writers to write about lesbian characters for a mostly lesbian audience.
I don't see a
Re: (Score:3)
lesbian overtones in a guy in a diving suit
Locking the man into an airtight container to minimise his influence
with a drill on his arm
..but retaining the body horror fear of penetration he represents
and a little girl sticking a syringe in dead bodies
..then subverting it into a female penetration scenario, taking advantaged of the neutered (dead) males.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Insightful)
You do know that feminism isn't about hating on men or trying to mooch off society right? Evidently you don't.
Depends on which feminists you are talking about. Are you really unaware of the wide spectrum of activism that falls under the term "feminism"?
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i don't really see any feminist activities these days, only people blaming feminism for stuff.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:4, Insightful)
"Because, you know, being part of a movement looking to improve the rights of historically opressed groups makes their arguments crap."
Yes, actually, in practice it does. At some point they go beyond improvement, then to parody, then to active harm of others. Too many groups keep going long after the problem is solved, and seek to create problems where there are none so they can be "solved" - usually by force.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Funny)
You mean parity, but feminism has indeed reached parody.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Interesting)
At some point they go beyond improvement, then to parody, then to active harm of others. Too many groups keep going long after the problem is solved
Very true. It can be argued that the same statement is true of labor unions, for example.
I think if you look deeply today, you'll find two major schools of "feminism" - the "academic" and the "popular." The "academic" branch of feminism - like all academia - is safely removed from the real world and traffics mainly in the Andrea Dworkin "all heterosexual intercourse is rape" [wikipedia.org] and Starhawk [wikipedia.org]-style schools of radical feminism. This is a holdout from pre-'80s feminism and remains the intellectual vanguard of feminism but is a small niche among women. It is, however, what Rush Limbaugh used to call "Feminazis" and Fox News still likes to call "feminism."
Popular feminism today more or less equates to what Wikipedia describes as "post-feminism" - a school of thought that basically argues that women have overcome many of the blatantly discriminatory issues of the past and need to focus on more practical issues like wage discrimination, workplace sexual harassment, etc. rather than the academic "feminist" utopian vision of a matriarchal world where everyone lives by consensus, sharing of feelings and government mandated mani-pedi sessions (except for the "butch partner" lesbians who can opt out).
All joking aside, "feminism" is not only fractured among multiple groups, but the mainstream idea of feminism today that most women subscribe to has nothing to do with the academic, radical-driven "feminism" of the 1970s that scared the bejeezus out of conservatives (and most heterosexual men). Like most things, it has evolved into something more mature and sustainable.
If you're interested in how "feminism" has meant many things over the years, the Wikipedia entry on Feminism [wikipedia.org] is not a bad primer, although its editors skew towards the academic side.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The "academic" branch of feminism - like all academia - is safely removed from the real world and traffics mainly in the Andrea Dworkin "all heterosexual intercourse is rape" [wikipedia.org] and Starhawk [wikipedia.org]-style schools of radical feminism. This is a holdout from pre-'80s feminism and remains the intellectual vanguard of feminism but is a small niche among women.
As a former faculty of American Literature at at a research university, I can assure you that you have no idea what academic feminism is.
Critical theory, race studies, religious studies, psychoanalysis, film theory, subject spectator theory, semiotics, linguistics, cultural anthropology, and more are all well-understood by and -represented among the scholars and intellectuals who are recognized as feminists. Academic feminists analyze and consider the signs, systems of meaning, legal histories, social histo
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One example of that I heard was a radio interview about someone that said all pornography is harmful. The interviewer said something along the lines of - what about example X? "That's no
Re: (Score:3)
That is extraordinarily disingenuous of you, to pick out two random (and highly controversial, even within academia) *second wave* feminists and represent them as the face of modern feminism (and academic feminism, at that) to the point that I can't even credit you with ignorance, like the other poster, but can only see deliberate malice. Along with quoting a fictional character from a novel and making it look like it's a direct quote by the author of the novel. FFS.
Re:Disable player chat (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Disable player chat (Score:5, Funny)
" His GDC talk focused on 'misogyny, sexism, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, queerphobia and other types of social injustice.' "
Boy, this one is a challenge. Wish I had Will Shortz here to help. But I'll do the best I can:
Capital Crime: Example in a game comment:
misogyny You dumb fuck, you fight like a girl
sexism You dumb chick, you don't fight worth a fuck
racism You fight like a white boy.
ethnocentrism You fight like a French white boy.
nationalism You fight like a French white boy. USA, fuckin' A!
ageism You fight like an old French white boy. USA, fuckin' A!
ableism You fight like an old French white boy in a wheelchair. USA, fuckin' A! ,
homophobia, You fight like an old French faggot white boy in a wheelchair. USA, fuckin' A! ,
transphobia You fight like an old French faggot white boy in a wheelchair who dropped her dick on the floor. USA, fuckin' A!
queerphobia You fight like an old French faggot white boy in a wheelchair who dropped her dick in his boyfriend's asshole. USA, fuckin' A!
Did I miss anything?
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How about former governor of California, Ahnold, who referred to legislators as "girlie" men? I wonder how the women in the legislature felt about that. Probably not particularly enamored with the governator. Certainly enough in the electorate were willing to overlook it. :-|
It's not just games, but cultural and it comes up all the time, thing is, most people's detectors don't go off because they aren't attuned to it being offensive.
Never gonna happen (Score:4, Insightful)
Haters gonna hate. Bigots gonna bigot. 13 year olds gonna 13-year-old.
Not until bigotry makes your appendages explode will this ever end. And maybe not even then.
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Various social engineers have been trying for decades to change human nature. It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work in the future any better than attempting to change cats into vegans would. Even if they manage to suppress the expression of the thoughts in one place, it just pops up elsewhere, or worse, festers into a sudden explosion of rage.
Yes, it's gonna happen (Score:3, Insightful)
The goal isn't to eradicate bigotry, but to lessen it as much as we can. By that measure we can, and we have succeeded. Yes, there will always be more work to do. But, overall, the world is a better place today than it was centuries ago if you are a woman, racial minority, and/or LGBT. The question is not "can we create a utopia." Obviously not. But can we make the world better than it is today? Yes, absolutely.
How? We do it by ignoring comments like yours, and working at it anyway. Your comment isn't just
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Not until bigotry makes your appendages explode will this ever end.
Well, it is a game...
"There's some faggot lurker on pad 3."
(*BOOM*) Player's arm explodes.
Even better if you're playing with a bunch of Brits.
"Hey, enemy player guy! What do you brits call cigarettes?"
"Fags."
(*BOOM*) Enemy player guy's leg explodes.
"Ha ha!"
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Now that's a good idea. Use voice recognition, and punish them in game.
Re: (Score:2)
It seems like a good idea, until you realize that they will use it for Griefing - they will just run up next to you then yell the forbidden word as they give you a death hug and the satellite laser (or whatever) strikes them - and you.
Or just when you are about to kill them they will issue the word and "escape".
There are lots of ways to abuse a punishment system to those that are truly warped, and just looking to abuse the system in whatever way is possible.
I've a cure (Score:2)
Remove fear labeling to start objective discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
We don't call it "race-phobia" or "men-phobia" or "women-phobia", the labelling of disagreeing with an accusation of fear (homo-phobia) does not allow the conversation to begin on a level of mutual respect, where people merely have disagreements on personal behavior.
Race and gender are not behavioral, but physiological facts, and therefore subjective debates easily point out a subject bias against an unchangeable reality. But it seems _any_ disagreement with homosexuality is instantly labeled as "hate", and I propose it's partly because of the fear label associated with disagreement.
No one expects a racist Nazi to love black people, but we absolutely expect them not to attack them. And we even enforce free speech laws that allow these people to openly run organizations that support racial superiority.
But with homosexuality it's the reverse, there is a movement to force a belief change and acceptance of another persons beliefs. Without honest objective discourse, emotionally biased labels and arguments will suppress disent that even Nazi's don't suffer under.
This social group (slashdot) espouses scientific disagreement as a basis for learning. I propose we start hearing both sides of the arugment about sexuality objectively, apply the doctrine of tolerance equally and remove the subjective and biased label of "homophobia" to those they merely disent.
Oh, that's easy (Score:2, Insightful)
So, if instead of saying homophobia, I said heterosexism, all my arguments would instantly be valid? Weird that you're hung up on a word you don't understand the meaning of.
We enforce free speech laws that allow the Westboro Baptist Church to protest, don't we? Why is that "the reverse" of protecting racist Nazi's?
Oh, you mean that you want to be able to shit on other people, and face no *social* backlash? That doesn't work for Nazis, either, sorry.
Extrapolation (Score:3)
It's not hard to extrapolate.
If I say "hey, hey, woah, let's check out BOTH SIDES of the evolution argument" - it's not hard to figure out that I don't "believe" in evolution. Just because your literal words sound objective, doesn't mean that they are.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Race and gender are not behavioral, but physiological facts...
Your argument is horribly flawed. Sexuality is also a physiological fact in an adult, how it forms is still being investigated but the brains of gay and straight women and men can be scanned to show differences. Nazis are racist by choice whilst homosexuals are not gay by choice because really, there are few reasons to choose it and many not to; why would you choose to be gay in a country like Uganda or Russia where you're likely to be killed because people are afraid that you'll cause all sorts of ills to
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Re:Remove fear labeling to start objective discuss (Score:4, Insightful)
No one expects a racist Nazi to love black people, but we absolutely expect them not to attack them. And we even enforce free speech laws that allow these people to openly run organizations that support racial superiority.
And we also look down on them and pity them for how pathetic they are, and many of us with they would die or at least stop breeding, all the same stuff that people have to say about gays that they would like us all to respect as a valid view. Well, that's not going to happen, so just build a bridge and get over that motherfucker. Homosexuality is older than any religion or indeed belief system with us today, it's not going anywhere — your belief system is.
This social group (slashdot) espouses scientific disagreement as a basis for learning. I propose we start hearing both sides of the arugment about sexuality objectively,
Objectively, the idea that some people's sexuality is okay and other people's sexuality isn't when neither group is harming the other is subjective, and therefore fails your own test. Go away and do not troll us a second time.
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I could pick apart the entire post, but I think this is the core of the discussion:
apply the doctrine of tolerance equally
If we were doing this, we wouldn't be having conversations about homophobia and bigotry.
Your entire post is very well written, but essentially boils down to "tolerate the intolerance."
The only proper response to that is "No."
Morals & DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
I play games for fun, not morals. Your beliefs about a moral actions may not be other's so adding your "correct" action in a game then give rewards for the right" choice is just another way of enforcing your beliefs on others.
For example I believe Homophobia is wrong, I have a right to stop someone else who is hurting another either physically or verbally, But I do not have the right to force the attacker to change his/her views, they are his/her choices and he/she believes them to be right just as he/she doesn't have the right to make me join in.
And everyone I know hates DRM's not for the fact they stop piracy (kinda) but as yet no DRM has been seamless. Frequent disconnects, ridiculous sign-up's (eg making a live account) The inability to access some content offline or even unable to play the game at all offline. We live in a world when you can't always be online, esp if you live in rural area or have bandwidth limitations. So hate about DRM's is completely justified, if you want to stop piracy look at why people pirate games, not some lackluster attempt at stopping them, you won't win, so far every DRM has been breached.
Bans don't work (Score:3)
Don't buy it then (Score:3, Insightful)
If the content of a videogame offends you, then don't buy it. If enough people don't buy offensive video games, people won't make offensive video games.
Telling other people "you should do this" or "you should not do that" only pisses them off and wastes your time.
Re:Don't buy it then (Score:5, Insightful)
This is more about the behavior of the community than the content of the game though.
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As I understand it, it isn't so much the content of the game as those playing it and communicating via it. For example, there may be a game mode in which there is one player versus many. Should the company go to appropriate lengths to make sure people aren't setting up games called "Smear the Queer?"
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I think he's not so concerned about offensive video games as about offensive video gamers, and what the games themselves might be able to do about that.
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What part of "abuse generated by a small segment of gamers" don't you understand?
Getting Misogyny, Racism and Homophobia Out (Score:5, Funny)
Possibly the wrong approach (Score:2)
While I applaud the idea, it's as unrealistic as "Getting Misogyny, Racism and Homophobia out of the Internet" or "Getting Misogyny, Racism and Homophobia out of books".
Games are not like TV Shows, in that there is not a single channel in which consumers get it (like TV Stations). A single person can make a game that becomes popular with tens or hundreds of thousands of people. Combine this with the fact that one group can find content as offensive (She's has a character flaw... misogyny!) while a
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And even if somehow all mainstream games are scrubbed clean, wouldn't that open new markets amongst independent game creators? "You won't find any of that perv stuff in Grand Theft Auto XXVII, not much of anything really, except stiffing generic looking taxi drivers. But i know a guy who's writing a game in his basement that you might like..."
where's the fun in that? (Score:5, Interesting)
Gaming is one of the last bastions where political incorrectness survives. I hope it will stay that way and that gaming won't get invaded by the armies of the politically correct spoilsports. And, yes, I am a minority and a target of some of these "-isms" and "-phobias".
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I hope it will stay that way
Yes, because having some 13 year old yelling "YOUR TEH GHEY FAGOT LOL" is so much fun.
I also think we should get rid of the bad spelling and grammar too.
Re:where's the fun in that? (Score:5, Insightful)
That... I don't care about. But I want characters to stay... in character. An 1960's Italian mafia boss should usually be a misogynist who likes big boobs, a 1980's black teenage gang member character is going to be homophobic, and a 1930's Nazi character should be anti-semitic. Trying to pretend otherwise is just stupid. And even for actual human players, I prefer if they don't pretend to be something they are not.
Of course, it is good if game developers actually have players and game characters that are diverse. On the other hand, they should shut up about framing this as a question of "social justice". I don't want "social justice" meted out to me by some left wing game developer because he thinks it's the right thing to do for poor, helpless me; I want him to take me serious as a paying customer.
Myogyny? (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder, who gets to decide? Does this mean that all game avatars will be wearing grey coveralls like THX1138?
Resolution (Score:2)
Easy - the former is only said by people who think women are fragile beings who need protection by big strong men. Or, can you not tell the difference between MRAs and feminists?
Re:Myogyny? (Score:4, Insightful)
It Depends... (Score:2)
If you're talking shit in the lounge or common area, then you deserve a banhammer right to the forehead. And if you're playing a non-violent or otherwise cooperative game, then nasty epithets really aren't cool.
But combat games? Actually shooting at other player opponents? Nuh-uh. Anything goes, jungle rules and survival of the fittest. If you're hunting other humans, then you should not only expect such nasty talk, but you should desire hearing it. When you've just flung a knife halfway across the ma [youtube.com]
Races in Videogames? (Score:2, Funny)
In many video games, going back to some of the oldest, there's almost always been multiple races. Heck even Space Invaders had two races. WoW has over a dozen.
If you're going to make a game that involves humans. Which race do you pick? Someone's going to get offended no matter which race you pick.
I play SC2, Terran. There's Zergs and Protoss. Three races right there. Is someone offended that the Terrans appear to be primarily Caucasian? Sure there's a few bit characters that aren't. Why isn't Reynor hi
Representation != Political Correctness (Score:3, Interesting)
I know reading the article is against ther terms of service here or something, but most of the points the speaker seemed to be making were more about equal representation in games, and how we can do better than having most games stars straight white males. The argument that audiences can't connect with characters of other colors, genders, ages, sexual orientations, or gender identity is suspect, given the diversity of the gaming population.
There's a difference between this and "political correctness" or "feminism", or "The LGBT agenda" people are so quick to demonize. An argument that we should have a richer pool of stories to experience is pretty hard to argue with, if you ask me.
Fix the cheaters first (Score:2)
Outlook as parent with daughters (Score:3, Interesting)
Yet more pussification of America (Score:4, Informative)
Translation please (Score:4, Funny)
I didn't major in underwater basket-weaving, so can someone translate that into English please?
I have a better idea (Score:3)
Bullshit (Score:3)
Bullshit. Make fun games. Making a fake utopia inside games is about as plausible as doing it in real life. People fucking suck... and to enjoy life you'd can pretend they don't exist. You need to learn how to have fun despite them. The same goes for games. The only thing worse than someone that say insulting things is someone that wont let you speak because they're afraid you'll say something wrong.
No (Score:3)
No. I do not want to be preached at while I'm gaming, and if you put that kind of crap in the game I won't buy it.
Re: (Score:3)
It would be nice if they both killed each other, Braveheart-style.
Re: Wrong Subsection (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I think before you continue your tour of righteous internet justice you should learn to read, and also to understand how an argument works. AC is not blaming real victims, AC is not exonerating bigots, and being an Internet Contrarian and Thinking are not tasks that are either harder or easier than the other.
Re: (Score:3)
Right, so, a person doesn't have to be a "victim" to get ticked off about discrimination that focuses on their group. They just have to be a person. Because just about anybody who is a target of discrimination is going to get pissed off about it. My experience is that the people who are making noise about this don't consider themselves to be victims. They consider themselves to be pissed off customers, demanding better from the people who are making the product they are using. It's like complainin
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I bet if you went into a regular bar and people in the bar started groping you, you wouldn't like it. Or if they started making rude comments about your gender, or your package, or your hair. Women like to game too. So games aren't analogous to gay bars. They are analogous to bars, if we go with the basic theme of your analogy. And what is being proposed here is that the bouncers toss your ass out of the bar if you harass the other patrons.
Re: (Score:2)
Except yeah, it kinda does. Because I will pay for games like Duke Nukem, DoA, or Bayonetta - And thus, the publishers will make more like them.
You, for your part, can choose not to pay for them, and instead buy pablum like Candy Crush, Bejeweled, or Angry Birds.
See how the free market works? I buy the games I like, and don't get o
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Ageist
Re: (Score:2)
In the US it's legal to age discriminate against anyone under 40.
Re: (Score:2)
In the US it's legal to age discriminate against anyone under 40.
I've always found it ridiculous that our anti-ageist laws were themselves ageist.
Re:Standard response to "that's gay": (Score:4, Funny)
I've found an effective way of dealing with homophobia online is to start flirting with them. They HATE when you do that.
Re: Not isms or phobias (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not so much *who* they're rude toward (everyone), so much as the *way* in which they're rude.
There's a big difference between "You suck at this game" and "You play like a girl," to use the most tame example I can think of. Putting down players by implying that they're $category, using hateful slurs, only propagates the idea that $category is not a desirable thing to be. Not only are they hurting the player they're insulting, but any person in $category that is in the same game; as well as teaching the non-$category people that this is an acceptable way to act.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not so much *who* they're rude toward (everyone), so much as the *way* in which they're rude. There's a big difference between "You suck at this game" and "You play like a girl," to use the most tame example I can think of. Putting down players by implying that they're $category, using hateful slurs, only propagates the idea that $category is not a desirable thing to be. Not only are they hurting the player they're insulting, but any person in $category that is in the same game; as well as teaching the non-$category people that this is an acceptable way to act.
Well, bullies like to punch where it hurts and where you have the least chance to defend yourself. I don't think bullies really have anything in particular against people with glasses or freckles or red hair but they'll still latch onto anything that makes you different and an outsider. It's a variation of trolling where taunting a woman into a feminist rage is a victory. It can be amazingly much more insulting if you use an implied inferiority like "Hey, not bad... for [a woman/an old man/racial slur]" tha
oh? (Score:2)
"Billy, you're a fucking idiot! What, I don't see anything wrong with that statement, it doesn't offend *me,* my name's Jerry - for God's sake, Billy, quit CRYING."
"peecee" (Score:3)
Yes, saying that an unchangeable characteristic about a person is socially acceptable is too radical for Slashdot.
What's next? Games that say it's "okay" to be black?? Please, free market, save us from this terrible fate!
"B" (Score:3)
So, you think that straight & gay people could choose to be bisexual? I guess?
And sure, you legitimately think that. There are people who legitimately think the earth is 6000 years old, too. Doesn't make you any less wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
+10 enchanted undergarments
Mormons.
Re: (Score:2)
Morgan Freeman didn't actually say it, but wisdom comes from other people, too:
"'I hate the word homophobia. It's not a phobia. You are not scared; you are an asshole."
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, because anyone that dares question doctrine is a bigot who must be silenced, right?