Psychologist: Porn and Video Game Addiction Are Leading To 'Masculinity Crisis' 950
HughPickens.com writes: Philip Zimbardo is a prominent psychologist from Stanford, most notable for leading the notorious Stanford prison experiment. He has published new research findings based on the lives of 20,000 young men, and his conclusion is stark: there is a developing "masculinity crisis" caused by addiction to video games and pornography. "Our focus is on young men who play video games to excess, and do it in social isolation — they are alone in their room," says Zimbardo. "It begins to change brain function. It begins to change the reward center of the brain, and produces a kind of excitement and addiction. What I'm saying is — boys' brains are becoming digitally rewired."
As an example, Zimbardo uses this quote from one young man: "When I'm in class, I'll wish I was playing World of Warcraft. When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected." Zimbardo doesn't think there's a specific time threshold at which playing video games goes from being acceptable to excessive. He says it varies by individual, and is more based on a "psychological change in mindset." To fight the problem, he suggest families need to track how much time is being spent on video games compared to other activities. "He also called for better sex education in schools — which should focus not only on biology and safety, but also on emotions, physical contact and romantic relationships."
As an example, Zimbardo uses this quote from one young man: "When I'm in class, I'll wish I was playing World of Warcraft. When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected." Zimbardo doesn't think there's a specific time threshold at which playing video games goes from being acceptable to excessive. He says it varies by individual, and is more based on a "psychological change in mindset." To fight the problem, he suggest families need to track how much time is being spent on video games compared to other activities. "He also called for better sex education in schools — which should focus not only on biology and safety, but also on emotions, physical contact and romantic relationships."
nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
being that many of them won't pass on their genes, nature will take care of it
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Informative)
That, and the free market. TFS puts it in plain sight: "I wish i was watching porn because I'll never get rejected [by porn]". So, suffering a male suitor shortage, women will lower their standards and rejection rates will go down. This will push more men back into old fashioned fornication. See, Adam Smith can really solve anything.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Interesting)
Wrong. Women would rather share a high-ranking male than lower their standards to a lower-ranking one. Which is why through human history the majority of men didn't reproduce.
captcha: stroke, looool
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
No, they will not adjust their standards, which are set by societal norms and unlikely to shift. The half with a low libido will just stop screwing around altogether, and the half with a strong libido will all go to the same fewer dudes over and over again.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Interesting)
They have it backwards.
The masculinity crisis leads to porn and video game addiction.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Insightful)
They also won't address the other aspect of this - our society puts no value on men. Neither do most young women, especially these days.
Young men don't want to be walking wallets for greedy self-indulgent shrews to bilk. But that's increasingly what the modern woman foists offers them. We have a culture that's put women's desire for higher and higher status males into overdrive. We over-validate and over-reward women massively, and constantly shame and criticise young men just for being men. Education is entirely centred around girls and the workplace overtly discriminates against men - all based on nonsense claims that women are somehow oppressed.
Young men have no expectations of being treated fairly, either in their personal life or at work. So they retreat into things they do enjoy.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
Millennial males have looked. They examined and considered the state of today's courtship, relationships, pertinent legal conditions/rulings/precedent, cost-effort, culture - even WITHOUT including the femmifrenzy of the last year or two...
The female experience will overlap on some of the second paragraph's points, so some decrease of interest on the other side would also be unsurprising.
Pr0n 'n gaemz are a symptom of the bullshit. They aren't a perfectly matching peg, but apparently the substitution is adequate.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Interesting)
As a father of two young girls, I'm rather conflicted.
Anyone has to admit that for most of recorded human history, women have been suppressed (as they continue to be in many parts of the world). At the moment, women are occasionally getting the upper-hand, and not always because of merit. What men are seeing now is how it feels to be the under-served, and men don't like it.
Someday we can hope the world will become a true meritocracy where people are only judged on their actions and merits, and the pendulum will stop swinging. Until then men are going to be eating the shit sandwich we've been serving for quite a while. That may be great for my girls, but not necessarily for me.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Insightful)
What men are seeing now is how it feels to be the under-served
The undertone being "turnabout is fair play", right? First of all, that women have been suppressed for most of recorded human history would not justify doing the same to men, if that were the case. The boys you're turning the tables on had nothing to do with that. That said, I don't think it's a matter of "feeling under-served", not liking their "new role". It looks more like they don't want to try and fill an impossible mixture of roles ("provider for the feminist wife") and particularly aren't attracted to women who (seem to) demand this role mix of them. And these women are getting pickier: Women traditionally seek "upward" relationships. Independent, educated women, even though they're self-sufficient and don't need a provider, don't go for men who couldn't provide for their upscale desires.
Secondly, what you're seeing isn't defiance. These young men don't secretly want relationships, but withhold themselves to make a point or to coerce women into renouncing feminism. No, it's at best indifference, if not outright rejection. They literally don't want girlfriends. In their mind, a relationship "costs" more than it's worth. It's not just the cost side either: Consider that they see divorces not just as statistics but as live examples in their daily experience of what to expect from a relationship.
And finally, that is not great for your daughters. Men are growing particularly wary of women in their mid to late thirties. They seem to have exceptionally bad luck with contraceptives and get pregnant just by looking at babies. In generations past, few women that age were single anymore. But today, young women want to have their own careers first. By the time they decide to have kids after all, they are in a bit of a rush to find Mr. Right. Now consider a dating pool where an increasing number of men simply don't want a relationship, especially not with a woman who wants kids, quickly. But the clock is ticking so someone has to be it, and almost inevitably, given her status and expectations, she "settles". This has failed marriage with kids written all over it, and even though women usually have the upper hand in that situation, it's not really something you can want for your daughters. And who would blame men for not wanting any part of that.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Interesting)
You're making interesting points. I'm not saying it's fair play, but it is what is happening.
It drives me nuts that in the eyes of extremists all men are assumed to be a potential child molesters if they were to hug a child that's not their own, we are all assumed potential rapists, and we are all evil oppressors of women.
What got us this way is that some very few men were, and now all of us are paying the price for it.
Re your second point. What I wonder is how much of it is related to parenting. Are the parents of the disinterested young men letting the games babysit for them instead of them interacting with them? I know kids are stubborn, but if you take away the game and force them to play, they will eventually do it. Parents need to show them the media stories are exaggerated, life is not inherently stacked against them, and that having meaningful relationships is healthy.
A lot of what you mentioned in your last paragraph is spot on, and I worry about that. I'd love for my girls to have a career and family too, my wife and I started in our mid-30s and while I don't think either of us settled, waiting could have led us to do so. The problems now and in the future will be different than what they were then, hopefully they won't be getting fondled at work for a chance at a promotion.
Re: nature will breed it out (Score:5, Interesting)
Are you saying men haven't suffered any pain at any point? Forced conscription for one. I recommend The Myth of Male Power for the other side of the feminist "men as oppressors" narrative.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Insightful)
Until then men are going to be eating the shit sandwich we've been serving for quite a while.
Why must I pay for the sins of my ancestors?
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
You sound addicted to video games and porn.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
What is needed, is to teach young men, how to get into the mindset of women, what they need to say, and how to 'project' themselves so they can get laid more.
Young men need to be taught it is a numbers game, Don't get hung up on one chick. When out, dress decently, be clean, and above all else, project confidence in yourself. You don't have to be that confident, just look at act that way. Act like you really don't give a shit if she wants you or not...be a bit aloof.
They always want what is a bit tough for them to have. Take control of the situation, decide where you're going. Nothing wrong with being polite, opening doors, etc....but take charge.
When you do approach and start talking, just learn some simple tricks...get THEM to talk about themselves, about their family...what they want and what they do. That way you don't have to really do that much for the conversation. And trust me, NO woman ever left a date complaining that she talked too much about herself.
Simple steps like that are what makes it easy to get into her pants. And don't just target ONE girl. There are tons of them out there. Rejection can and WILL happen, but shrug it off and start to hit on her friend...hahaha. But seriously, just hit on as many as possible. And meet and approach women whenever and wherever you can. Outside of the bar scene is really choice. Simple as asking for the time, just approach, approach, approach.
And if you're shy, and everyone starts out that way. Just walk up to women during the day, ask for the time...just think of it as practice....just talk to them. It doesn't even have to be one you want for anything, just practice.
It isn't that hard, especially if you get over that feeling of "oh no, if she rejects me, I'll not know what to do the rest of my life.". Get a new mindset, hit on one you like, if it sticks have fun with it....if not, water off your back, she didn't matter...who's next?
I'm not saying be an ass...but don't be the overly willing to please guy that will do anything for her and lets her call the shots. If you do that, you may as well be her gay friend, 'cause she's not going to sleep with you. Women like a challenge....be a bit of a challenge.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
e.g. as a male, you have no right to any expression of yourself as you are. Your intended function is purely to be what others want you to be, even if that means a hellish life of total self-abnegation.
Re:No. (Score:5, Interesting)
Seems that's what a lot of men are doing and it results in people like Zimbardo going "Hey, you're not allowed to just be single!"
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
There comes a point where this get old. I went through my phase in my late teens with this, and realized I hated being in any kind of relationship like that. I don't find enjoyment in getting laid if there's no emotion in it.
The games take everything I value out of a relationship, so I decided I'm unwilling to play them. Regrettably, this means my relationships are fewer, but the one that recently ended was more meaningful to me than the previous five combined.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Insightful)
being that many of them won't pass on their genes, nature will take care of it
Unless of course this is horseshit. Video games aren't new, porn definitely isn't new. Both have been around and easy enough to get for your average middle aged man that we would have already witnessed this social breakdown. Yet our genes carry forth, my children's schools are over capacity and building out. The desire to play video games or look at porn as an alternative to genuine social interaction has *always* been there. At the same time, most of us realize it's synthetic, the potato chip of the interaction (not to mention sexual) world. If anything video games and the internet are recreating the social isolation that used to be far more common when there were few people scattered farther from each other, and the best choice you had was writing a letter. As far as I'm concerned, being able to retreat into our heads more is a positive step forward, allowing us to defeat the lock-step committee approach to thinking we have depended on more heavily in the past 50 years, and allowing individualism a chance to reign again.
There is only the perception that these things are new, and that perception is useful to get funding.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Funny)
And who can resist "4700 hours in Dota2"?
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Insightful)
You read a couple thousand hours playing a single game.
She reads "easily entertained and focuses on a single repetitive activity. Just have to stock up on learning games and mommy can have lots of Me time."
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:5, Insightful)
Idk, my girlfriend of five years just spend all weekend (approx 30 hours of game time) playing Path of Exile with me, in the new 1 month challenge league.
She's been having me teach her things so she can improve in League of Legends, and wants to get as good as I am so we can duoqueue together in ranked.
There definitely are girls out there who are looking for nerds/gamers. The problem is most of them are subjected to so many supercreepy "oh there's a girl in voice chat in this raid I'm going to queue my mic and begin masturbating" and "white knight everything she says or does and follow her around like a puppy dog" type "gamer guys" that they're terrified of going anywhere near the rest of us nerds.
I got lucky and found a girl who had been sheltered from online gaming, she had only played Nintendo games prior to meeting me.
If nerds/gamers want to find women who won't reject them, they need to stop being awful people to every girl playing games first. Once gamer girls feel safe actually admitting to being girls in games online, gamer guys won't be rejected en masse by them anymore.
Re: nature will breed it out (Score:4, Informative)
They don't treat the guys they meet well either - ever played a MOBA game? You'll get constant accusations of being a noob, and have various curses thrown at you until your standard of play is what they demand. Of course, I've seldom seen actual advice on how to play better, which would be far more productive.
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Interesting)
since it isn't a hereditary trait in the first place.
You are saying there's no hereditary trait that influences brain development and addiction levels to games and porn ?
Re:nature will breed it out (Score:4, Insightful)
The subtopic of the GP post was about nature breeding it out. It doesn't matter if the article mentions hereditary traits, it's still a correct observation. Some men are much more interested in games and porn than others.
Re: nature will breed it out (Score:4, Informative)
No, not entirely if you read some more modern research on behavioral science. Behaviors are patterned by multiple input sources and feedback mechanisms, including: genetics (inherited traits), religion, societal norms of their country of residence or their heritage, direct training (e.g., etiquette classes), trauma (e.g., car accident, sexual assault, physical abuse) and social interactions with people from different cultural and experiential backgrounds, among others.
In essence it's our experiences along with inheritance that model our behavior, whether that be at home or not.
Re: nature will breed it out (Score:4, Informative)
Lieberman 2.0 (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been saying forever that the keyword is moderation. Anything in excess will screw you up, be it porn, exercise, or board games.
Re: (Score:3)
More like Gore 3.0.
Politicians have been peddling this crap forever, even Socrates complained about "Kids these days!"
Re: (Score:3)
a lot of these games are similar to slot machines in that they space small rewards on a regular basis to keep you playing for hours. Civilization and Sim City are perfect examples
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It has to be said though, WoW is addictive. People moan when someone tries to help women with their problems, and here is one that mainly affects men do let's try and deal with it.
Re: (Score:3)
I've read a lot of stories lately about VG and porn doing this and that to our youth. Which game will be blamed for the next school shooting?
I'm old enough to remember when television, Arcade Games [wikipedia.org], and stickers [wharble.com] were the new moral outrages that were grotesquely warping the impressionable minds of America's youth. I also remember when it was supposedly a huge problem that telephones were killing letter writing. Now that more interactive media is killing TV, Ma Bell is dead and people are writing to each other again, you think they'd be happy. But no. Clearly its just always pretty much whatever is new that older folks don't understand.
Actually,
Opting out of society (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as people laugh at the Men Going Their Own Way movement, there is a growing number of men who feel that it is not worth the effort to put up with today's rapidly-changing standards of manhood.
Agreed (Score:3, Insightful)
Ive dated a lot of women who it turns out are looking for the "cowboy" type or the "biker" type or the "go chiefs" type. And are unhappy with me because i havent subscribed to any of these store-bought personality templates.
I prefer to just be who i am. A multifaceted individual with a wide variety of interests and hobbies.
Women HATE that.
Re:Agreed (Score:5, Insightful)
Ive dated a lot of women who it turns out are looking for the "cowboy" type or the "biker" type or the "go chiefs" type. And are unhappy with me because i havent subscribed to any of these store-bought personality templates.
I prefer to just be who i am. A multifaceted individual with a wide variety of interests and hobbies.
Women HATE that.
Here's the thing. Women are just as screwed up as men. However, in a slightly different way.
Most women are initially attracted to 'the "cowboy" type or the "biker" type or the "go chiefs" type'. Though I'm not sure if it's an inherent thing, or learned. But they almost never want you to actually be that way long term. They want to turn you into that "multifaceted individual", not actually be that way from the start.
Don't get me wrong, as men, we're just as screwed up as to what we're attracted to and what we want too.
Re:Agreed (Score:5, Insightful)
Most women are initially attracted to 'the "cowboy" type or the "biker" type or the "go chiefs" type'. Though I'm not sure if it's an inherent thing, or learned. But they almost never want you to actually be that way long term.
They are facing a wicked dilemma. She wants the cowboy/biker type with a unfaithful streak, because she want his genes for her sons and grandsons. On the other hand, she wants him to be nice and faithful to help raise their kids. So, the intended solution is to hook up with a rebel, and try to change him.
Re:Agreed (Score:5, Insightful)
Missing The Point! (Score:5, Insightful)
He also called for better sex education in schools
When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected.
Sex education does nothing to solve the real issues these Peter Pans are suffering. I'm pretty sure that the guy in the quote knows all about how "sex" works, probably in more detail than is actually needed.
Re:Missing The Point! (Score:5, Informative)
Did you read the rest of the sentence about what should be *added* to sex education?
Full quote: "He also called for better sex education in schools — which should focus not only on biology and safety, but also on emotions, physical contact and romantic relationships."
Rewards (Score:5, Insightful)
It begins to change the reward center of the brain, and produces a kind of excitement and addiction. What I'm saying is — boys' brains are becoming digitally rewired...."When I'm in class, I'll wish I was playing World of Warcraft. When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected."
Ok, I'll bite. It seems to me that the brain is just doing what it is supposed to do - adapt to the environment it is confronted with.
The changes in rewards go far beyond the brain. As a society in the US at least we've greatly limited the options kids have when they graduate from college, so there is little true reward for spending time studying. Likewise, there is little benefit from having kids - they're a huge expense, and a major legal entanglement when that girl decides to reject you after you have the kid.
If you want kids to study and get married, then you need to reward them from doing so - and not just in their brains.
Or, we need to question why we want kids to do those things in the first place. Why is it so important that boys and girls get happily married? If the boys are just as happy alone, why not let them be happy alone? The obvious answer is so that we can have lots of babies running around, but I'm not really sure why it is so important that we have lots of babies running around either. We used to have them out of self-interest so that they could care for us in old age. With increases in productivity it is more likely that we'll end up caring for them in old age.
Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, no shit. Most people would rather be doing something they like than something they don't like. And is it really a revelation that socially awkward nerds feel socially awkward around women?
Re:Seriously? (Score:4, Interesting)
This isn't insightful, it's the opposite in fact. That's one selected quote from summary. I know it's not fashionable to RTFA or the study itself but trying to criticise it based on that one line is beyond ridiculous.
Obviously it's part of a wider pattern of behaviour, selected (badly) to illustrate it.
Slashdot used to provide insight. Now people who knee-jerk react to one line in the summary get modded up. I think the lower readership now has made the race to comment first worse as the period where stuff gets modded much is shorter.
I say this to Zimbardo (Score:3, Funny)
Porn and Video Game Addiction Are Leading To 'Masculinity Crisis'
Speak for yourself mate.
When at work. (Score:5, Funny)
When I'm in class, I'll wish I was playing World of Warcraft. When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected.
And when I'm at work I wish that I was home watching TV with a beer in my hand.
Also, rock'n'roll causes people to act immoral!
So like Japan? (Score:5, Insightful)
The comments from the article sound eerily similar to those coming from Japanese men. More and more they are playing video games and watching porn rather than interacting with other people, most especially women.
It might have something to do with control. When you're playing a game, you are in control of your character. You are still at the whim of your surroundings and other players, but you are in control of "yourself".
Not so when approaching others and most especially women. With the decline of civility, asking a woman out and being rejected is no longer, "I'm sorry. I appreciate you asking but I'm just not interested" to, "Fucking loser! Why would you talk to me? Get the fuck out of here."
It's easier to not bother than deal with asshats.
Re: (Score:3)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So like Japan? (Score:4, Insightful)
It is?
Re: (Score:3)
Re:So like Japan? (Score:4, Insightful)
Smaller families, more invested in each child, less social interaction because of the child-abducting boogeymen (even though they are statistically insignificant and getting more so with each year). We've got a generation of kids that are growing up inside and not learning how to interact with people in non-sterile environments. When forced to deal with people that they can't just hit block on or ignore, they freeze up. Socialization is very much downplayed in our current culture, and it's apparently sorely needed by many.
Don't take this as me saying they have to like everyone they meet. But you do have to learn some basic "get along with each other" skills that I'm finding many kids lack any more.
comic books (Score:4, Insightful)
Just like comic books and television screwed up a generation of kids, right? You could also use the same argument to say that kids in the 1800s just spent their time reading novels instead of having real life adventures.
Re:comic books (Score:5, Funny)
Just like comic books and television screwed up a generation of kids, right? You could also use the same argument to say that kids in the 1800s just spent their time reading novels instead of having real life adventures.
To be fair, it's possible that TV did screw up a generation of kids, for example......
I've been watching your posts for a while, and I can say you are seriously schizophrenic, Mr AC.
How about teach about love (Score:5, Insightful)
And stop promoting promiscuity, which causes all sorts of emotional damage in the long term. Instead, let's promote loving relationships, sexual or otherwise.
I'm not saying people shouldn't have premarital sex. I'm just saying that people shouldn't hook up with someone they met in a club or give it up on the first date.
Same with porn. A little from time to time is fine. Watching really kinky stuff or watching it multiple times a day is not healthy.
If there was more love in the world, there would be fewer problems, like single mothers, high divorce rates, and teenage pregnancies. But our school systems promote "sexual freedom", codewords for promiscuous behaviour. Let's change that by finding a middle ground between the conservative abstinence only bullshit and this liberal sex everywhere bullshit.
Amen.
Re:How about teach about love (Score:4, Interesting)
Wish I could mod this up. But it's falling on fallow ground here. Most of the commenters will reject it because they approach interactions with the opposite gender with a negative bias. The notion of a loving relationship with another person is just beyond their ability to comprehend.
Lingering effects of our puritanical past (Score:5, Insightful)
tl;dr - Our society sucks when it comes to preparing kids for sexual maturity.
Re:Lingering effects of our puritanical past (Score:4, Funny)
I see you aren't married...
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also just stuck in the past (Score:4, Interesting)
In particular with regards to gender roles.
So, time was women were for making babies and raising said babies. Men were for protecting and providing for the women. That was the roles society prescribed and there wasn't a lot of deviation from it. You did see outliers that didn't conform, but by and large that's how things were basically due to necessity. You notice many animals follow a similar structure. It is what is needed for the survival of the species.
Well that all changed, of course. We now have the problem of too many humans, not too few. Also many of the household tasks that used to take a ton of time are now automated (try washing clothes by hand, it is a full time job almost). So society changed. Women didn't need to place their worth in their offspring anymore. They could choose to be what the wanted, do what they wanted, and still be valuable. It wasn't about popping out babies.
Well, this is the other side of that: Men's value now no longer needs to be in providing for a family. They can have a family, or not, they work, they can stay at home, etc, etc. For some men, that means staying single.
However, some people, like this dude, have a problem with that. They think that men should be required to be providers to be considered "real men", should be required to fill a particular role in society.
Porn Solves a Problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Porn doesn't invent tests to see if you really love them. Porn doesn't create drama. Porn doesn't leave dirty dishes in the sink. Porn is whatever you want it to be. You want a blonde with big tits today and a redhead with little tits tomorrow? No problem.
The birth control pill created the sexual revolution by liberating women from the need to hitch themselves to a man to care for them and their child. Now instant access to vast libraries or pornography is liberating men from the need to hitch themselves to a woman for sexual satisfaction. The main difference is that when women were "liberated" from men it was called progress, but when men are liberated from women it is labeled a mental defect.
Re:Porn Solves a Problem (Score:4, Insightful)
instant access to vast libraries or pornography is liberating men from the need to hitch themselves to a woman for sexual satisfaction
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. In the first place, how many people would rather watch porn than have sex? I'm not saying there's none, but in most cases it's probably rooted in anxiety as opposed to an actual preference, all else being equal. A choice made out of fear is not the same as a preference made out of desire.
In the second place, porn wasn't a prerequisite for masturbation the last time I checked. And I checked pretty recently.
Yeah (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Yeah (Score:5, Funny)
I cannot imagine any normal human being who would not think that a person who played golf 15 hours a day and did nothing but frequent prostitutes (i.e. has to pay to get laid) was extremely fucked up.
That's being rather unfair to Tiger Woods.
Merely scratches the surface (Score:5, Insightful)
He's looking at the symptoms and declaring them to be the problem without any real understanding of the underlying causes.
Guys focusing on video games and porn are a natural result in a society which is heavily biased in favor of women. Hell, I'd rather avoid dealing with women romantically too, given all the risks involved. All it takes is the mere accusation of rape, and a man's life can be torn to shreds. But even beyond that, we see a legal system completely set against men; custody, domestic violence, divorce? All stacked against men.
So more men are choosing porn and forgoing women. Seems like a perfectly rational response to me.
Re:Merely scratches the surface (Score:4, Insightful)
A valid point as well; young women's ability is overvalued while young men's abilities are undervalued.
However, I suspect how society has been treating men for the past several decades plays into the VG and porn "addiction". We're told any sexual advances we ( men ) make are wrong, and they objectify women, but we're still expected to make them or we're "not men". Well, guess what? A lot of us are tired of the doublespeak and the games where we're always at a disadvantage ( one way or another, we're "wrong" ), so instead we choose to check out.
Why bother? Why waste all that time and energy for a potential reward? Video games and porn are a guaranteed rate of return and thus, a better value.
Many girls are batshit crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
And really, why would young men take the risks? Not only is there an easy way out (that you lament), but there's also very little in the risk-benefit department. The demands on boys are insane: Treat women as equals, but provide for the family, but share responsibility for the kids and don't forget quality time with the wife, but forget about seeing the kids when the wife gets a divorce, but keep paying for the kids. Check your privilege, you're the reason why women clutch their purses and switch to the other side of the road, but be masculine and decisive, but ask for explicit consent, but make sure she really means it and won't change her mind, but don't be whipped. Fact is, a very large percentage of women are best avoided, not made sacrifices for, and I mean because they're bad for anyone, not just you. Yes, dating is a numbers game, but it looks like it has a big Russian roulette component lately.
Never talk about feminity crisis. (Score:5, Insightful)
They then both called the guy "an idiot".
They missed the fact that SHE could have asked him out. It's the 21st century, not the 18th century.
The reason guys spend all their time playing video games instead of out is that the video games are better than real life. Women expect men to be the 50's guy - bring flowers, etc. But they don't want to be the 50's girl.
The crisis in Masculinity is concurrent with a crisis of femininity. They feed off each other like a viscous cycle. As long our culture continues to complain about men not acting like it thinks men should act - all the while encouraging women to do what they want, we will have no progress on this issue.
Please note, I am not saying that women should act like a 50's girl. They are free to act like a modern woman. But don't complain about what men do and ignore what women do. (In fact, I think women should act like a modern women - and includes asking men out and buying them dinner for a first date. You want equality, you have to actually act equal, not insist on special treatment).
Re:Never talk about feminity crisis. (Score:4, Insightful)
They also seem to have missed the fact that maybe he isn't attracted to her in the slightest but is to her friend.
How often do they call themselves idiots for not hooking up with the loser who was hitting on them all night and obviously interested?
A rebuke...from a real-live, non-crazy feminist (Score:5, Informative)
Read this story a day ago, and also this solid criticism on its bullshittiness.
https://medium.com/@cainejw/th... [medium.com]
not sure this really makes much sense (Score:5, Interesting)
"When I'm in class, I'll wish I was playing World of Warcraft."
So would it be better if he said "When I'm in class, I wish I was playing baseball" or "fishing" or "out working on my car"?
Being a 47-year old man myself, I'm not so old that I can't remember that wishing I wasn't doing whatever crappy thing I had to be doing isn't pretty much the ground-state of any adolescent.
"When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected."
Meh, I think porn is a symptom, not the cause. I'd say what he's observing is a thing, but is a transient result of a (historically) momentary discontinuity between sexualism and sexual availability.
We live in a society where womens' sexualization is complete: it's a (pardon the term) naked commodity, and in which its use as a lever for commercial exploitation is constant. The primal urge for sex in young men is, I suspect, unchanged from history, yet now they're like starving men walking down a street of bakeries, candy shops, and restaurants all taunting them with what they want. At the same time, REAL women (as opposed to the ones flaunting themselves for commercial gain - you don't think those girls in the Axe commercial are doing that because they really feel that way, do you?) are more empowered than ever to demand a level of respect and consideration in the relationship making the sexual negotiation ever more complex for a stupid, single-minded, priapistically-driven young man. Porn and masturbation are the only sexuality he can control, is it any wonder that sometimes he wishes it was as simple as the movies make it seem?
It's the old conundrum between offense and defense. At this time, one side has all the advantages, is it any wonder that sometimes the other side doesn't want to play as much?
Some people are different, get over it (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not anti-science, but I do believe that too many times scientists draw conclusions based on biases. This is one of those. The bias seems to be that isolation is bad and that people should be around other people. He mentions that it changes brain function but names no specific trending to bad behavior because of those brain changes. Many people like to be alone, I am one of those. There is no better image of hell to me than living in a big city or doing the club thing. I would be perfectly content snowed into a swiss mountain cabin alone for 8 months as long as I had internet.
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
reality sucks for most men (Score:5, Insightful)
And it has since the beginning of "civilization".
The top 10% of men in genetics or wealth get all of the benefits. The bottom 90% get to die in wars and in mines and in workplace accidents, supporting the harems and lifestyles of their "betters". If they don't die they go home to a woman who wishes she were still young and pretty enough to bag one of the alphas and she takes it out on him daily. His kids, coworkers and relatives don't respect him because for the last 50 years the western advertising machine has been propagating the message that the average man is boring, tedious, and disposable.
Unlike reality videogames generally give you guaranteed reward for the amount of time you put into them. And competition is fundamentally fair since everyone starts at the same place. As opposed to reality where your ending status is very much determined by your starting status.
Some men just aren't born to compete, and don't have the innate resilience to keep trying despite repeated failures. That doesn't mean those men are less deserving of happiness and satisfaction and peace, they just have to find their own and ignore the bullshit that "society" keeps heaping on them.
Talk about a study, but no study. (Score:5, Interesting)
Fantasy life easier than real life (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't that what this really boils down, not some bullshit about masculinity? Women watch soap operas because it's more exciting than their boring life, men play video games so we can be greater than the insignificant little peons that we are. And in porn the most beautiful women will perform for you even if you're fatter than the marshmallow man and uglier than a troll. We have immersive enough solutions that the body is fooled to play out almost all its chemical registry with endorphin, adrenaline, dopamine and so on letting you fake all the excitement and rewards as you slay imaginary dragons.
The problem is that it's addictive and desensitizing, if you're on a constant rush of awards and achievements and level-ups and whatnot then real life is a real downer. Not entirely unlike how I hear people on drugs describe coming off their high or how fat people act when they come off a sugar rush. So through a combination of actual reality check, batting outside your league because of failed self-perception and being poor at handling disinterest or rejection the result is often a painful face-plant. Once bitten, twice shy so you rather watch porn and play video games than try again.
What's the Problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
While the guys with Neanderthal brains are out at bars trying to get laid, I'm living a comfortable, safe, and happy life. While they're getting exposed to STDs, drugs, accidental pregnancies, rough divorce settlements, paying child support, spouse abuse (either as the perpetrator or the victim), defaulting on their home because their spouse talked them into living above their means, etc. etc. etc..... I am living in a small single-bed apartment alone, making good money, playing video games (mostly MMOs) for social interaction, and listening to music to tame my biological cravings.
Not to mention, my choice not to reproduce helps the population problem -- at least in the span of a few decades, if not the long term. There is not a single problem that humankind has that can be solved by making more people. In fact, making more people does exactly the opposite for nearly all of our problems; it makes them more severe and reduces the length of time we have until those problems erupt into global catastrophes.
I don't *want or need* a woman. I don't *want or need* a romantic relationship with anyone. I don't want kids. I don't want any of the associated problems that come with either. It's been completely wired out of me.
I am basically an exact description of the type of person the study was about. And yet, I am not unhappy; I am not unsuccessful; I am not a loser. I am an environmentally-conscious, socially-reponsible citizen, supporter of my community, dedicated employee, educated voter and participant in the political process, and I have my fair share of social interaction, too, on the order of 6 to 8 hours per day on MMOs. Just because I don't touch the people I socialize with doesn't somehow make me diseased. I am a very social person. I am "socially intelligent". I can pick up on body language cues, implied meaning in conversation, the intent behind vocal intonation, the significance of a touch. I deal with people in meatspace for eight hours a day, and people in virtual space for another 6 to 8.
Medicine and academia has a tendency to call anything abnormal a disease, or a problem to be solved. Sometimes change is for the better. Sometimes the status quo is the worse of the two worlds.
In short: I would prefer to continue to be who I am, in the situaton I am in, rather than be the epitome of "masculinity" as this researcher thinks I need to be, even if I had the means to become that. And quite honestly, I'm pretty sure I do have the means to become that, if I put my mind to it. I don't put my mind to it because *it's not how I want to live my life.* Who the fuck is Philip Zimbardo to tell me that my life choices are wrong, especially when, by all the objective measurements that his ilk thrive on, I am of a far greater net benefit to society than many of the so-called "masculine" men he thinks I should be?
Re:What a load of utter shite. (Score:4, Insightful)
How is treating women with respect and not like fuck toys acting less masculine? Sounds like your ideas were screwed up BEFORE you played video games.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Boys behaving like boys is a "problem", apparently.
Re:What a load of utter shite. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You are quoting losers, so yeah. (Score:4, Insightful)
For those that want to claim that there are too many problems with the people they've dated, perhaps they need to take the time to evaluate the type of people they've been with, to figure out if there are any common traits that define them. They might discover that they're attracted to crazy people because of some interesting characteristic that unfortunately comes bundled with a whole slew of negative traits.
At least that was my experience. Once I figured out the kind of woman that I shouldn't date and avoided dating them it was a lot easier.
Re:You are quoting losers, so yeah. (Score:4, Insightful)
Once I realized this, I made a point of avoiding women that were 'vulnerable' in the sense that they were on the tipping point of needing to be saved. The woman I married was self-sufficient and took care of her own problems when I met her, and if anything I provide that soundingboard for her to sanity-check ideas against and to vent to. On an entirely practical level I can take care of things that were previously contracted-out (ie, auto repair, house maintenance, technical support) but she knows how to get these things dealt with if necessary; if her car breaks down she can have it towed without requiring me to drop everything and rush to her side. We make each others' lives better, but we can each stand as individuals and take care of things without excessive drama. It allows us to be together because we want to be together, not because we're not functional in a co-dependent state.
Re: You are quoting losers, so yeah. (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: Girls don't like me, so it must be their fault.
Re: You are quoting losers, so yeah. (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if you're a pussy and buy your girlfriend shit. If she says you need to buy her shit to prove you love her, run the other way, fast.
So much for wanting equality. All women want to do is use men for their wallets, and then when they start losing their ability to do so because they are losing their beauty, they settle down with the stable guys they've rejected their whole lives.
Then you're dating the wrong women. My wife isn't that way. She doesn't have a real diamond engagement ring (and she know it - she'd have killed me for spending $ 2+K on a ring.)
Date a shallow woman, Get a shallow woman. Date an interesting woman, Get an interesting woman.
Re: You are quoting losers, so yeah. (Score:5, Interesting)
Then you're dating the wrong women. My wife isn't that way. She doesn't have a real diamond engagement ring (and she know it - she'd have killed me for spending $ 2+K on a ring.)
Ditto here. Married 13 years now with a $100 cubic zirconia ring.
Date a shallow woman, Get a shallow woman. Date an interesting woman, Get an interesting woman.
You forgot the most important bit: be an interesting man, be able to date an interesting woman.
If your life revolves around video games, by definition you're a shallow person. I might be interested in a brief conversation with a person about the latest games, but if that's the extent of your interests then it's going to be a short conversation. Mix porn into the conversation, and I'm looking for a fast out.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Golden rule part B: if you are not attracted to an unattractive woman's body, you're a shallow pig.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, the golden rule is, 'Treat others the way you would want to be treated yourself'.
Think about that in context.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
No, the golden rule is: if you have the gold, you make the rules.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
The golden rule: If you are attracted to an attractive woman's body, you are a pervert and a pig.
Uh, no. If you are attracted to an attractive woman's body, and then you make an ass of yourself over it, whistling at her, making crude remarks to your friends, or making unwanted physical advances, then you are a pervert and a pig.
It's really not complicated.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you just really hate feminists and see conspiracies everywhere, or maybe you are just trying to justify your own self destructive behaviour, but either way it's wrong.
Or maybe it's just a standard human response to the environment? Just about any organism would retreat from a toxic environment, why would young men be any different? Society tells them in no uncertain terms that they get less rights in relationships, less reproductive options and once they reproduce they are merely to be used for income. Why the hell would they now want to go ahead and have what *you* and the rest of the attackers call "normal"?
They are getting pleasure from something that harms no one, except for that one little fact that society can no longer use them. As long as they continue getting more pleasure from porn than from real women I see no problem here. when they want real women they will go out and find them, and if they find the demands too great then they will retreat back into their porn/VG world.
The only losers are the women, who will now have to share the few men that *are* available. Like I pointed in a post to *you* many months ago, treating men badly simply to further what you think women want only results in the women who are the losers. Maybe you should suggest a mens-only school, or special bursaries for men only to make more men available for relationships? After all, you suggested similar for women multiple times on this forum.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit. I spent my 20s playing video games after work every day and weekend, watched tonnes of porn, same as the people in this article. My 30s are full of children and well adjusted family life. Its like anything, some people grow out of it, and some let it take over their lives.
You should say, TO SOME PEOPLE this is clearly damaging behaviour. I would submit that those are the same people that would easily find something else to damage themselves with if not for porn and video games.
In summary, its just a bunch of hot air. In past ages these young men would go to war, join a cult, or bury themselves in their work.
Obviously you want your kids to have limits on their computer time, but once they are in their 20s they are enough of an adult to realize what they want, make their own decisions. Drinking, drugs and video games is as good of a way to spend your life as any other when you have no real obligations.
Society doesn't really make many productive things for young men to do in the evenings. The two I can think of that are the most popular when i was a 20 something were waste money on clubs/bars or exercise. You cant exercise more than a few hours a day, and most 20 something are dead broke because of all the income inequality in our lovely world. A 20 year old with no family has very few time sinks. What is the alternative? what should these kids be doing? buying $7 beers at the club trying to impress whores? Volunteering at a church? get real! Video games are cheap, porn is free. That's why they are successful and people are into them as hobbies. Not because peoples brains are changing or some such bullshit. Im pretty sure guys always liked playing games and naked ladies.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Claiming normal male behaviour is a disease.
Da fuq?
How did *that* get modded insightful. Being completely addicted to anything, no matter how harmless in moderation (games, porn, alcohol, other drugs) etc is generally considered to be a bad thing.
It's certainly not "normal male behaviour".
I think the only reason this post got modded informative is because anything that takes a dig at feminists on slashdot gets modded up no matter how batshit crazy.
Not normal male - normal HUMAN behavior. (Score:5, Insightful)
The "conclusions" of "abnormal behavior" were made from observations that kids would rather be at home playing instead of sitting in a class AND from the fact that young humans will seek sexual satisfaction but avoid rejection.
That sounds like something a ROBOT might find strange.
Not a human being. Particularly not one who actually went through puberty at some point in their life.
In short... like most psychology studies out there, this too [slashdot.org] is most probably [retractionwatch.com] bullshit. [slate.com]
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
It got modded up because the readers on Slashdot do not want to hear that porn and or video games have any downside.
Of course they forget that free access to addictive substances has been shown in study after study to cause problems.
It happened to me (Score:4, Informative)
I was pretty literally told that at my college orientation - 10 minutes after it was pointed out that campus security was entirely handled by local police with arrest powers, and orders to enforce campus policies, we were taken to the dorms and it was casually mentioned that the university policy on sexual consent allowed the female partner to revoke consent retroactively, and one had to get verbal permission every time some new kind or level of intimacy was reached during a sexual encounter.
Standards were relaxed twice in my last two years, but I sure wasn’t interested in dating on-campus - any time I had any passing interest, I flashed back to the dorms, and the interest quickly passed.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Zimbardo isn't a feminist, and I wouldn't put my money on him being taken in by feminist propaganda.
However, I think his study is missing some significant elements. He is too quick to postulate the cause-and-effect relationship. Other psychologists have shown that overcrowding also causes voluntary social isolation. Bullying and other such environmental factors also drive people to prefer solitary entertainment. I think the addiction to video games is as much an effect as it is a cause in a whole cluster of social events.
I will point out that a common belief among men in America, be it true or false, is that women:
1) are very demanding in romantic relationships.
2) are not very giving in romantic relationships.
3) are fickle and will leave you as soon as they get bored (with no concern over how much of an emotional attachment you have to them).
4) are not interested in much of anything that men find engaging, and won't join men in men's lives so much as pull men out into the woman's lives.
Maybe this is different for millennials or younger. I don't know. But I do know plenty of geeks who feel this way about women and all have stories to back it up. They don't even bother trying to seek romance because they see it as an uphill battle with no prize at the end. The games and porn are an easy way to fill the time instead.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry but it's not that simple. Men's behavior is an adaptation to changes in social structure. In the past, rejection was about the only thing a guy had to face. Today, it's fraudulent, career destroying sexual abuse/rape charges, financial ruin from extremist 'family' court judges in divorce, and, really, indifference from the now hyper gynocentric/effeminate culture. Hell, even coming on to a woman in what most would consider appropriate circumstances (at a bar/club lets say) carries a real risk of being carted off to jail because she 'felt uncomfortable'. A lot of guys are doing the math and realizing the dwindling rewards of pursuing women no longer offset the increasing risks. These threats are not simply anxiety that can be willed away. They are very real and increasing with every socjus type law that is passed.
The bottom line is that feminism removed almost all the incentives for men to marry and commit, leaving only the responsibilities for cleaning up any 'mess' that might occur for choosing to interact with women at any level, from casual/professional interaction to sex/marriage (why did she choose to have the baby? because she knew she could get the state to bilk it out of him). You can thank affirmative action for that. Women are now a privileged caste, and in caste societies, the lowers often avoided interaction with the uppers just to minimize the probability of trouble. Thus, the only guys left at the table are the desperate sorts who will take any beating for any sort of female attention, even if negative, and the player sorts you mentioned. The whole situation is degenerate.
Re:Feminist bullshit (Score:4)
Second, if the girl is pretty great but the relationships are all going wrong, look at your behavior. Yes, the girl may be doing things wrong too, but remember YOU CANNOT CHANGE OTHERS. Are YOU behaving the same way as listed above? You may be. You may be expecting the perfect girl to accommodate you.
If you said this to a feminist in reference to women, you'd be labeled a 'victim blamer.' The issue isn't how close to perfection (whatever that means) the guy's or girl's behavior is, it' the double standards imposed by the social engineers. Blaming women? not ok. Blaming men? Hell yeah! Fuck those shitlords! They need to step it up and accept their new second class status! That is the combined message men receive from society today. It's no wonder that the smarter ones (the nerds/geeks you refer to) are seeing the numbers for what they are and dropping out. About the only true component of your statement is that it is true that you can only alter your own behavior. Unfortunately for men, it almost doesn't matter what they alter. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't since she's got the legal and social trump card.
"All women are like that" to some degree, just like "all men are like that." That's the definition of stereotypes. All men and all women are partially defined by biological imperatives that don't just go away due to insecurity about them or political inconvenience. If you set a particular stage for interaction (like what current socjus laws and policies do), you will see a majority of women behave in certain ways, and a majority of men behave in others. This is especially apparent on college campuses.
Basically, your post blames men for the whole situation, which is a typical refrain these days. The irony is that by doing so you're implying that women have zero agency in relationships. All you're really doing is pointing the finger and shaming instead of looking at both sides of the interaction.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
SHE SOUNDS HIDEOUS
Re:3rd Wave Feminism is causing this. (Score:4)
I'm not the one spending my time in San Francisco.
Yeah, sure point your Prius towards Texas and if you survive the trip through the Western end to the gulf we can settle it like men, or one one real man and one San Francisco nancy in the lawn in front of the San Jacinto monument.