10th Anniversary of Steve Jackson Games Raid 227
WhiteRabbit writes, "According to their Web site, March 1, 2000 is ten years to the day since the Secret Service raided Steve Jackson Games... for publishing a cyberpunk-style role-playing game supplement. This was one of the first cases in which the Electronic Frontier Foundation became involved.
More info at this page."
Cool.... but not really (Score:1)
Hey look the feds raided my home for no good reason, I sue now and I won. Yay.
$50,000 of damages? (Score:3)
Hasdi
A displaced sense of reality (Score:3)
This is winning ? 5 times as much goes to lawyers as to the injured parties. Something in the US legal system needs to be changed to enable real people to combat big brother, be they the goverment or big company X.
Make sure you read Bruce Sterlings Book (Score:5)
Its a pretty good read, covers the Jackson Games Case as well as the other ones that occured aroud that time
C.
Re:Cool.... but not really (Score:1)
________________________
Steve Jackson (Score:5)
Fast forward ten years, and the only thing that's changed is who authorizes the raids: the MPAA and RIAA are hot on the heels of so-called pirates who are giving them an estimated 1.2 billion dollar surplus of funds, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act - perhaps the worst offender since the CDA only because it's more comprehensive and dangerous. A felony to use a digital-audio converter? Reminds me of how stealing cable access is a felony, but me taking a hammer to your car (doubtless costing much more loss of property) is only a gross misdemeanor.
"these times, they are a changin'"... it seems to underscore the one problem we seem to be missing - this isn't a fight over intellectual property or freedom of information as much as it's a fight to educate people. Sadly enough, most people get their information through the massive media organizations and evening news. People who can afford to put the word out on their wires are all the average consumer can hear. Our fight is an underground one - we're trying to save the freedom of the average consumer (both in the US and the world at large) against greedy corporations and they think we're the bad guys!
Well.. for what's it's worth Steve, thanks for sobering us up to this reality.. even if you didn't know you'd be making history when they showed up at your doorstep.
War against Crackers (Score:2)
Secondly I would like to mention that the Gubment's Search Warrant was based on a very very flimsy affidavit. And they still HAVEN'T returned all of the items they seized ten years ago.
This just goes to show that the gubment has actively been against all forms of irreverence. Which goes against the first amendment to the constitution.
I don't believe in this "National Security" crap. It is more like "Governmental Security. The Feds doing something illegal to scare the genral populus against these kinds of people.
Thank you and good night.
Feds good for Business? (Score:4)
Ewige Blumenkraft.
ZP
ICQ: 49636524
snowphoton@mindspring.com
The Problem with Goon Squads (Score:4)
Even when the courts come out and say the Goons are wrong, all they end up doing is shoveling some taxpayer money back at the wronged party. I'll be willing to bet that no heads rolled at the Secret Service because of this particular incident -- what's the big deal about paying a fine when it's not your money in the first place? It's like when I found out that my company would pay my on-job parking tickets.
There ought to be some system of accountability to discourage government agents from degenerating into Goons -- maybe some way of allowing the courts to directly discipline government employees. In any case, I find it a bit disturbing that my hard-earned (well, earned) tax dollars are going to pay such stupid people.
----
Ah, the glory years (Score:4)
So, don't think about the raid. Or Project Sundevil. Or Kevin Mitnick (who deserved some jail time, but didn't deserve 5 years and absurd treatment). Heck, even Waco & Ruby Ridge. It's just the government keeping you safe from yourself.
Oh, er, wait a second...
Ramsey Electronics (Score:3)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
One of the first?? (Score:1)
When oh when will they go out and hire some real experts?
Different Time -same mentality (Score:1)
I disagree! This is HISTORY, people! (Score:2)
Too bad Leonard Peltier can't sue the FBI the same way...
Re:A displaced sense of reality (Score:1)
They created a board game because of this! (Score:3)
" Hacker is the original computer crime card game. This game was written by Steve Jackson as a satirical comment
on the Secret Service raid and the hacker community. The hacker community liked it. There's been no visible
reaction from the Feds. Hacker won the Origins Award for Best Modern-Day Boardgame of 1992. "
More info [sjgames.com], but it's sold out.
Anyone remember Ripco? (Score:1)
Correction ... (Score:2)
--Hephaestus Lee
The story seems to have many versions (Score:3)
(Even if the guy -was- guilty, AND did something stupid at the office, at best any such evidence would be highly circumstantial, when it came to a case that was specifically about his activities at home. The chances are the Judge would throw the book at whoever ordered the raid, no matter what.)
But let's assume that, at some point, the Secret Service decided that the Cyberpunks game was "dangerous" or "criminal" in some way. I have yet to see anything by SJG to suggest they did, but let's make the assumption anyway. What then? It's "evidence", sure, but gathered in a raid concerning a totally independent activity. I'm not sure they'd have been able to use it.
Let's make another assumption, that they could have used it. What then? If it doesn't directly and demonstrably incite criminal activity, then it's just a book, covered by the first ammendment. That would be a tough nut for the Secret Service to crack.
Ok, let's make Yet Another assumption, that they could somehow have done so, that they could have found a way to interpret the law so as to legally be able to use the Cyberpunks information as evidence of directly inciting crime. Could they have won the case? That would depend on where the trial was held. The Secret Service aren't supposed to be involved in domestic investigations (except maybe of counterfeiting, forgery, et al), which would be right on the fringes of the Cyberpunk genre.
If the case was held in an area which was primarily dependent upon the Secret Service, in some way, for employment, stability or security, I can see a judge maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt in that one narrow field, and maybe requiring SJG to remove anything specifically dealing with counterfeiting or forgery from the game.
Anywhere else, though, the Secret Service wouldn't have a hope. It would be too tangental an argument. Without a direct, primary relationship, the judge would be perfectly within their rights to have those involved in the raid locked up for contempt of court, perjury and abuse of court time.
Although it should not be relevent, because SJG generates revenue in most States, and therefore States are earning money from SJG's business, I suspect most judges would follow SJG's tune, anyway. Most US court decisions seem to be based on financial benefit to their area, rather than the merits of the case.
Another good thing that came out of this. (Score:2)
IO is also a strong linux supporter. All the servers there are running under some free software of one type or another, and you have pretty much a free hand in what you want to run off of your website, as far as mySql, php, etc..
Not to mention, having a nice, short domain name is a plus.
fnord
Re:Feds good for Business? (Score:1)
Secret Service (Score:2)
In this case the SS was the lackie of Bell South. The big companies had lobbied congress for some goon-squad funding for "computer crime."
Which, to the Bell Souths defence was the only option since the FBI won't do jack for you unless they can get a couple good press confrences out of it. And back in 1990 these types of stories weren't news worthy. And the hacker computer back then didn't have any script kiddies. Wisdom pervailed and no one took down the Bell South E911 system. All they would have had is some guy went dumpster diving and found a document and put it online...Ooooooooooo.
So, the SS is now the lackie of Big Business, in this case Bell South. They target Kluepfel for having the document open to the public, and decide to mess with him and anyone he knows. Enter Steve Jackson Games.
At this point you should be thinking "Gee, smear tactics to label legit businesses... Trumped up charges and a drawn out legal battle designed to force someone out of business... Can you say MPAA? I though you could."
It's great to see the EFF pervail, but the since the case was won so long after the initial flap it's page 10 news. If anything this should be a reminder that it's been 10 years since SJG. Although things haven't gotten worse, they certainly haven't gotten better. There's a long road ahead, and we should be glad the EFF is there.
Actually I'm surprised that it hasn't gotten worse (Score:2)
Of course true hackers don't do blatently illegal things so they had to find some excuse to raid people's homes and businesses. This is EXACTLY like what happene before my lifetime in response to phreaks. This case is really different though. These people just made a RPG module that gives fantastic ways of hacking (or rather cracking) things that simply did not exist. (and by and large still do not) This was a direct attack on freedom of speech. If the Madison knew what the bill that he drafted would do to our society, the first ammedment to the constitution would have never happened.
The problem now remains. The authoritative evil people want us to conform to THEIR agenda and if we differ, well the seceret service has to come and stop us.
Ok, end ranting now
Correction of Re:Correction ... (Score:2)
No. The Phrack document never existed on any of SJGames's files, including the BBS.
The Company was raided because the file DID show up on Lloyd Blankenship's personal underground BBS, and by coincidence, Lloyd also managed the Illuminati BBS.
Re:$50,000 of damages? (Score:3)
there is an oversight in the article. the author neglected to mention that every employee of SJ Games at the time of the seizure was awarded an additional 50,000 *experience points.*
when you think of that in terms of levels and new spells -- it's pretty worth it.
The real facts behind this (Score:4)
The fact of the matter is that Steve Jackson Games practially BEGGED for the raid. They publically ridiculed the Secret Service and bragged about their exploints online. Furthermore, what everyone fails to mention (and is crucial) is that SJ Games had documents stating that they were ALLOWED TO BE SEARCHED wihtout a warrent at any time, as part of a bargain due to prior exploits. They had in fact waived the right of a search warrent.
Plus, it was well known that there were no less than 3 FULL TIME FBI agents working at SJG at the time of the raid not working in conjunction with the Secret Service but working AGAINST THEM. Two splinter groups had entirely different agendas (one was concerned with SJG and games piracy, the other with hijacking of sensitive national security data). The groups refused to work with one another and eventully destroyed not only SJG, but themselves.
The BBS had bomb recipes, beastial porn, oirated warez, and (more over) documents about a testing facility where a prototype stealth bomber was under production! The FBI was interested in the porn, the SS in the Bomber info.
The SS was well withing their rights to seize these documents when National Security is at risk. The FBI, on the other had, wanted to amass more evidence and didn't want to make a move on SJG until later.
Meanwhile, SJG is flaunting the porn, the docs, and even stolen hardware in BBS, usenet, and IRC. The hardware was junk, and bulk defective hardware was sold to mafia kingpin Joeseph Capello in Wilkesbury, PA. He and his organization wanted to take out SJG in a big way, but his plans were thwarted by the FBI and SS.
I'm really sick of all the bullshit that's flying around out there. Do some research before you post this crap. Shame on slashdot for propogating such nonsense as news.
Craig Neidorf (Score:1)
on January 18/19 1990. That too was a major
event and the resultant trial a major defeat for the Secret Service.
Hey... (Score:3)
Wow. That long ago? (Score:5)
I haven't seen most of them in years. Dana has a webcam [io.com] and is currently the 13th sexiest geek the whole world. Unfortunately, I've lost track of most everyone else.
The raid is what introduced me to io.com, Dana, and the rest of the coolest group of people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.
A lot of people on Slashdot seem to think that it wasn't much of a victory. I guess they don't understand what happened then. The supreme court decided that computers were printing presses. The supreme court decided that what happened was wrong. This doesn't mean that it can't and won't happen again but it does mean that it's not acceptable. When it does happen, it's a newsworthy event, not a daily fact of life. For that alone, I consider it a victory.
There are those who think SJG should have gotten more. I don't think they understand what the fight was about in the first place. The fight was about the ability to communicate. Could we talk to people and have a right to privacy? Could we print what we wanted to in an electronic forum? Did the government have the right to harass us for doing so? These were important decisions in those days. Without that case, the Internet as we know it, may well have not come to be. The freedoms we use to post on Slashdot came from that incident.
Yeah. It's been 10 years. Some of the stuff never was returned. Rumors said that we were killed during that whole purple Nike' sneaker suicide bit. My fanzine (Second Church of Ultimate wisdom) is gone. Dana is a sexy geek, instead of just being a brilliant sexy person. And the government is still performing illegal raids.
But at least now they're illegal.
-----
Distribute. (Score:2)
Obviously this kind of activity (remember Norway) can take place anywhere on the globe, pressed by interested parties big enough. So if you run any kind of a minuscular server (web/mail/etc) anywhere, in order to secure your information against theft by bigger players, make deals with at least two equal partners to replicate all your information and services to prevent total DoS by natural disasters or governmental intervention.
Just 2% of my administrative paranoia.
The moral of the story (Score:1)
Re:They created a board game because of this! (Score:1)
Distribute - intercontinentally (Score:2)
+ as widely distributed as possible, both geologically and governmentally
Almost missed half of my point.
Re:One of the first?? (Score:1)
Simple. When the experts are willing to say what the gubmint wants to hear.
--
Games? This should be filed under censorship! (Score:2)
Re:Steve Jackson (Score:3)
Laws are interesting. Reminds me of an uncle of mine who is currently serving a minimum of 12 years in Leavenworth for manufacturing E. It wasn't the E that many people are glad he's away. He had a thing for taking a hammer to stereos that didn't play his kind of music, bashing people's heads into a wall when he didn't like how a discussion was going his way, exchanging merchandise at stores without telling the merchant, breaking into neighbor's houses to steal a pen . . . just a real fuck up. Everything he did was a slap on the wrist all his life until he was 40. Until he made some happy drug. The judge and state marshall wanted him away for life.
Re:A displaced sense of reality (Score:1)
Re:Who's worse the lawyers, or the SS? (Score:1)
Lawyers in general piss me off a whole lot. They don't produce a product, and they provide for a service that is used far too often, and in the end, both parties get screwed, and the lawyer comes out ahead...even if he loses.
Take these Class Action Lawsuits, for example. I remember hearing a while back about them filing a class action lawsuit against Intel for the Pentium math bug. They got a list of every Pentium owner, and sued for them...without asking. The lawyers got something on the order of millions, and everyone else invovled got another Pentium...even though most of them weren't complaining about their chips malfunctioning. Who did that benefit? (Aside from AMD and Cyrix...) There needs to be a huge reworking of the legal system. Something that limits the amount of cash a lawyer can get. Price gouging, or something...sheesh...
Re:The Problem with Goon Squads (Score:1)
[c]omputer hardware ... and computer software ... and ... documents relating to the use of the computer system ..., and financial documents and licensing documentation relative to the computer programs and equipment at ... [SJG] ... which constitute evidence ... of federal crimes.... This warrant is for the seizure of the above described computer and computer data and for the authorization to read information stored and contained on the above described computer and computer data.
It seems to me that the problem in the first place was the idiotic judge who issued them the search warrant. I thought the whole point behind requiring a judge's permission was to ensure from the beginning that crap like this wouldn't happen? Instead, it seems to be just another rubber stamp on the whole damned process.
The system seems to be designed so that the cops ask for whatever they think they could get, and the legal system is supposed to rein them in. But obviously, this isn't happening. I mean, financial documents?!
Yes, clearly education is needed -- how about educating some of these judges?
Re:Steve Jackson (Score:2)
Yeah, you've got to love laws which let people who drink, drive and run over small children go to jail for a month and ban them for driving for a year (a whole year - shock, horror!) and then puts people away for five years for having five pills on them. Seems to me like the goverment pays too much attention to what they think national opinion is and not enough attention to the actual effects of crimes are when working out prison sentances.
Re:The real facts behind this (Score:2)
The FBI was interested in the porn ... The FBI, on the other had, wanted to amass more evidence ...
Ha ha, I like that :)
Re:The Problem with Goon Squads (Score:1)
Now as a side note...
What job will pay your on-job parking tickets?
:>
Anyone know (Score:1)
Bruce Sterling - Hacker Crackdown (Score:3)
For different printable formats, go to the EFF 's Bruce Sterling - Hacker Crackdown - Archive [eff.org].
Re:Cool.... but not really (Score:5)
This you dismiss as unimportant? Remember this is a very old case, and also remember that when someone beats the Federal government, it is a big deal, it means the courts sided with SJ Games against the SS. That the SS was in the wrong. Hopefully, it caused the SS, FBI and other organizations to act less obviously outside the law in future cases. (Though I'm not sure that's true.) At anyrate, it showed that you can beat the government when they break the law because of ignorence and incompetence related to computer equipment.
Where are they now? (Score:1)
Re:One of the first?? (Score:1)
The experts they do have are usually trying to get some project of there's funded and will say anything to get the funding. If they want good advice they'll have to shell out for it... just like everyone else.
Re:The real facts behind this (Score:1)
Don't plug the HD power into the master/slave jumpers, man.
If you've got some proof of this go ahead and show it...if you don't, then I'm not going to believe your off the wall stories of someone as high up as the SS and the FBI going after a game company because of warez, and 3l33t people. Boards I was on were running the same stuff, and they were never paid any visits.
Re:The Problem with Goon Squads (Score:2)
Members of law enforcement agencies simply have no significant accountability for their actions. As the poster mentioned, the worst thing is that some of the taxpayers money is returned to them. Look at a random sample of officers or supervisors responsible for heinous acts, and the majority of the time nothing happens. If one is suspended, they are quickly rehired by another office, often at a pay raise. The checks and balances (oversight committees) are underfunded, politicized, and have little real power.
And on top of all that is a Supreme Court that is systematically eviscerating the bill of rights in the name of supporting law enforcement.
The saddest thing is these generally only effect people with limited means (i.e. limited to nonexistent legal budgets.) It is rare that anyone who can hire a decent firm is hassled, despite the scope of crime(frauds, mostly) perpetrated by that same "white collar"/upper tax bracket segment of society.
The list of cases that have received significant media exposure pale besides the tons of cases that are buried. Worst are the increasing number of home invasions accidental shootings (home owners who tried to defend themselves from armed thugs storming bedroom at 2am) based on the incorrect tip of a confidential informant.
I hate politics, but knowing what a cop/fed can do and get away with makes me sick.
Re:War against Crackers (Score:1)
SJG seems to know the distinction between hackers and crackers.
--
%japh = (
'name' => 'Niklas Nordebo', 'mail' => 'niklas@' . 'nordebo.com',
'work' => 'www.sonox.com', 'phone' => '+46-708-405095'
Yes, Steve got it back ... in pieces! (Score:2)
It was a real shame, because of all of us SMOGs, he had the heaviest investment in tech - and they took his computers and literally broke them in pieces, returning the broken chips and motherboards in plastic bags (at least, that's what he told me).
Yes, they can do that. And they still can. Those laws haven't changed, and aren't likely too in the near future, except to get more drastic as we change our Nation's Enemy List from drug kingpins to hackers and crackers.
In honor of Steve, I ask that everyone go out and have some sushi for lunch today (his favorite).
Re:Ah, the glory years (Score:1)
We all know that if he was able to "hack" into the "net" again, he could accidentally trigger massive acts of "cyberterrorism".
Re:The Problem with Goon Squads (Score:1)
Law enforcement.
10 years from now (Score:2)
Fond Memories... (Score:1)
of the day my mistrust of the government extended to their definition and treatment of "computer crimes."
I shared this story with just about everybody I knew after hearing about it, it was such a ridiculous case.
10 years later and things have not changed much (Score:2)
This is important because L0phtcrack, if you are not familiar with the software program, is widely used (legitimately!) by Network and Security Administrators, and Security Consultants for Network and System Security Audits.
Logical extrapolation of the charges mentioned in the article implies that Microsoft is guilty of a number of felonies, and conspiracy to commit numerous additional felonies, in Minnesota, because they manufacture the NT Resource Kit, a favorite "criminal hacker tool". In fact, anybody in possession of the popular Unix "Crack" program, in the state of Minnesota, is surely also guilty.
-----
http://www.channe l4000.com/news/stories/news-20000217-164727.html [channel4000.com]
According to this article (and a Hopkins Minnesota police department), it is a felony to posess l0phtcrack. Two people were charged with
"...two counts of possession of burglary or theft tools (specifically, a software program for extracting user IDs and passwords from a computer
system). "
Later, the articles explains that these two people '...accessed the VP Projects computer system and installed a software program called LOphtCrack, which is designed to extract user IDs and passwords. "
According to the article, its also a felony to attempt to gain access using it as well as another felony when you actually gain access.
-----
Re:Hey... (Score:2)
Current laws on computer equipment seizure are the same. They can take your computer for "examination" and give it back to you at some indefinite time in the future. They have no limitations on the amount of time they can hold your equipment. Given that most equipment is near useless 2-3 years after initial purchase it's the same as stealing.
Feds very bad for Business (Score:1)
Man, what a shame!
Probably making $150K+ (Score:1)
They're probably anti-hacker experts now, pulling down more than $150K. Probably promoted to the upper echelons of the SS, too.
Re:Anyone know (Score:3)
They've been releasing a steady stream of new material [sjgames.com]. While a few products had disappointing sales (e.g. INWO SubGenius [sjgames.com] was released just as the gaming distribution network melted down a few years ago, so that many gaming retailers went directly from "never heard of it" to "it's old news"), they've generally been doing well AFAIK.
/.
Re:A displaced sense of reality (Score:1)
This is winning ? 5 times as much goes to lawyers as to the injured parties. Something in the US legal system needs to be changed to enable real people to combat big brother, be they the goverment or big company X.
All that aside, as I understand it, the feds have never stopped harrassing SJ Games, or at least have never stopped (in)conspicuous surveillance of them and Illuminati Online [io.com].
A personal note from Steve Jackson can also be found here [sjgames.com].
Re:The moral of the story (Score:1)
If they track you down, they probably know you have it - but if they can't *prove* you have it, then that's enough for reasonable doubt. I believe something similar happened in Kevin Mitnick's case - the government has encrypted data that they never got a chance to use against Mitnick at trial, because they had no idea what was in it.
Anyways... just me speaking out of my arse.
Re:$50,000 of damages? (Score:1)
;)
Re:The story seems to have many versions (Score:2)
The U.S. Secret Service mission is "To protect the President and Vice-President, their immediate families, important presidential candidates, visiting heads of state, and other dignitaries. To enforce laws against counterfeiting currency, fraud, forgery, credit card fraud, computer fraud, and electronic transfer fraud."
So the Secret Services was very much withing its jurisdiction when they went after a few SJG employes on charges of "transport of property obtained by fraud" and "traffic of passwords or similar information through which a computer may be accessed without authorization" (as mentioned in the U.S.S. affidavit for the search warrant for SJG [sjgames.com]).
-Earthling
qualifications (Score:1)
- criminal intent
- "technologically challenged" District Attorney
- appeals court
Re:The Problem with Goon Squads (Score:1)
Re:The story seems to have many versions (Score:1)
Go to your local game store and find the book GURPS: Cyberpunk. On the front cover lower right corner it says "The book that was confiscated by the US Secret Service" and in the first few pages is a statement regarding the book being targeted. Sounds like a rather official SJG statement about the government targeting the book.
BTW the book is pretty good.
Re:I disagree! This is HISTORY, people! (Score:1)
Sadly, I didn't play GURPS or OGRE. Just Car Wars.
Maybe if some of these young kids (18-19:) had had our old hand-crank, acoustic modems, they'd appreciate the current tyranny a bit more.
Re:Steve Jackson (Score:1)
What is your logic here? How do you draw comparison between that event and the mythical 'fight for our online rights'? That event happened far before the 'net' was common knowledge, or a public venue for that matter.
"Fast forward ten years, and the only thing that's changed is who authorizes the raids: the MPAA and RIAA are hot on the heels of so-called pirates..."
How can you place software piracy raids and this event in the same philisophical boat? I don't get it.
"Our fight is an underground one - we're trying to save the freedom of the average consumer (both in the US and the world at large) against greedy corporations and they think we're the bad guys!"
Although I am a seething believer in free software, corporations can and will licence their products as they see fit. It's up to individuals to decide whether they accept the philosophy of bad business. We're never going to change the collective minds of those that are at the helm of big business. We have to lead by example, and they'll catch on if they're smart.
Attraction rather than promotion.
Current copyright laws suck. Most licence agreements suck too. Bottom line is we have a choice.. I exercise mine.
WWIV BBS connection (Score:3)
I was a WWIV sysop at the time, and found this whole aspect of the case very interesting.
Even though I've moved on, to Usenet and Web development and all that, I still think back fondly on the amazingly vibrant communities that sprang up around old 286s running WWIV off a single phone line and a 2400-baud modem. That's our history (for some of us, anyway). It's where we came from, and it's where a lot of the sensibilities we share came from. I think about that sometimes when I'm trying to explain to a marketing droid why our company shouldn't use spam as a promotional tool, or should be concerned about the privacy rights of people who submit information on our Web site.
Was it really wrong? (Score:4)
If you were distributing a filer that said "How to make LSD in your basement, for fun and profit", wouldn't you expect the cops to come and arrest you? Even if the document didn't really tell people how to make the stuff, and you were doing it as a joke. No, they should arrest you, and then let you go if it was discovered that you really didn't commit a crime. No one was permanently arrested here (in fact, no one was actually arrested. They just had their toys taken away).
Law enforcement has a responsibility to uphold the law, mistakes are sometimes made. Better safe then sorry. (and don't get me started about this whole Diallo shooting thing)
[ c h a d   o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
Re:Feds good for Business? (Score:2)
I still have my original GURPS Cyberpunk book. (In fact, I'm looking at it right now.) I remember, as a youngster, browsing through the role-playing material and finding this book. In big letters on the front it said,
That more than anything convinced me to buy it. (Well, also the fact that Steve Jackson makes phenomenal games.)
Re:$50,000 of damages? (Score:2)
The company isn't shut down. They're still making new games, still turning out high-quality stuff.
Just vist http://www.sjgames.com/ [sjgames.com]
fnord
Ramsey Electronics (Score:3)
<PARODY>Look! K-Mart is selling TELESCOPES!! Those can be used to spy thru people's windows!!! RAID!!!!!!!!</PARODY>
Sig11, you're full of it (Score:2)
I'm sorry.
I don't like the MPAA or the RIAA either.
And they're just damn wrong about DeCSS, as we all know.
But they do own the copyright to all that music that people steal. And that's illegal, and undefendable. I don't like the big music companies any more than you do. But crime is not the answer -- if we're going to preserve our personal freedoms, we have to be above such things.
People, if you don't like big media companies that screw artists and consumers alike, don't buy from them. You're not giving the artists a cent, we all know, by buying the CDs. Go to the concerts (on tour is how most artists make money). Buy CDs from small indie music houses that focus on the artists, and on doing what's different, instead of more of the same drivel. But don't steal. That just gives them more ammunition and reason for laws that take away privacy.
Thanks, Secret Service! (Score:2)
By confiscating the Illuminati Online server, they effectively launched it from being an obscure BBS into being a nicely profitable Internet provider.
Steve should send them a thank-you card every year on this date.
Re:Yeah right... (Score:2)
The Secret Service did nothing wrong, it was all Bell South's doing. After all, SJG and Illuminati BBS was infinging on their turf!
You can be as paranoid as you want to be about big business (aka anyone who makes more money than you), but nothing will get fixed until the real culprits are put on a tight leash.
The real criminal in this case was the US Government. The solution isn't to break the baby bells up further, or to deny hollywood filmmakers the right of association, or to prevent anyone from making more money than you. Instead, it is to ensure that laws are applied equally to everyone, including the government.
Let's accept, for the sake of argument, the spurious claim that Bell South approached the US Secretary of the Treasury with an offer to hire the Secret Service, for the express purpose of eliminating a BBS that wasn't obsequious enough for them. Now let's assume that the guv'ment had to follow the same laws as everyone else. In this case, Bell South might as well as hire the mafia as the Secret Service, since the raid would have been a criminal act of extortion and theft.
If you make the laws apply to everyone equally, then lobbying by the filthy evil anti-linux megacorps will stop, since there would be no way to get exclusive legal priviledges.
Law agencies(was Re:The real facts behind this) (Score:2)
Re:Going to Concerts (Score:2)
So what if supporting Britney directly or indirectly supports Disney? BFD! Maybe the next artist isn't a pawn of evil mediacorp, but uses you ticket money to buy a Britney Spears CD. Are you going to start accounting for every cent that leaves your hands?
SJG Still In Business after 10 years - not bad! (Score:3)
http://www.sjgames.com/
--- Bill, partially responsible for the One of Disks...
Re:Actually... (ot) (Score:2)
You would today take away a right that admittedly costs dozens or hundreds of lives every year. In return, will you give us the guarantee that the government will NEVER become hostile to its citizenry? Before you answer, think about how authorities in this country treat minorities. Consider how short a distance it is from their current repressive behavior to genocide.
And for the record, I don't own a gun and probably never will. But I don't go around trying to force MY views on people that I can't protect.
i agree. (Score:2)
I had a conversation with Dean Paul Fowler here at CMU, about the line between protecting the University from lawsuits by the industry and academic freedom. One of the things he pointed out is that whenever an industry of that size goes to court or Congress and says, "We're losing money because of this illegal activity," you can bet there's going to be a rapid response from those with the power. And that's going to affect everyone else. We have to pick our fights, and make sure we're really on the moral high ground here.
We have to be able to respond with an unconditional, "No laws are being broken but our rights are being violated." I can't simultaneously tell the industry to go screw itself and apologize for my cohorts who are stealing their product (however much money they make despite that theft).
Re:Was it really wrong? (Score:2)
Why the hell not? They work for me, and I expect them to do their jobs competently. That means they either learn the subject matter required by a given case or consult competent experts therein.
These guys were selling and distributing documents that clearly laid out plans for hacking computer systems. Yes, these were fictional systems (although, the techniques described could easily be applied to real systems running at the time), but how could we expect the FBI to know that?
I await your explanation of how detailed instuctions for calculating what number you need to get at or below on a 3d6 roll can "easily be applied to real systems".
If you were distributing a filer that said "How to make LSD in your basement, for fun and profit", wouldn't you expect the cops to come and arrest you?
Of course not, any more than I would expect the cops to haul off the Mystery Writers of America convention en masse.
Describing how an illegal act might be committed is not itself illegal in any civilized jurisdiction.
No, they should arrest you, and then let you go if it was discovered that you really didn't commit a crime.
If they arrest someone under those circumstances, they should themselves be arrested (on charges of deprivation of civil rights under color of law and kidnapping).
Law enforcement has a responsibility to uphold the law
Their gross failure to uphold that responsibility is the topic of the current thread.
/.
Re:Extremely off topic (Score:2)
A few years ago a stupid fuck took his automobile through the chain link fence of an elementary school and ran over and killed several children. What's the difference between that and a schoolyard shooting?
Face it, criminals do not heed the law (which is why they're criminals). They will always have guns, even if they have to import them from China via COSCO. When one of them breaks into my house armed with an illegal weapon, what do you want me to do? Call the cops and tell the thug to wait ten minutes until they arrive? Fuck that!
If you want to place yourself at the mercy of criminals, so be it. Sure, go ahead and praise Sharon Stone for turning in her guns while she still has armed guards on the payroll. Idolize the hypocrites.
Re:The real facts behind this (Score:2)
Why it mattered, by someone who was there (Score:4)
It wasn't clear back then that electronic media had full First Amendment rights in the U.S. There was a lot of talk that they'd be subject to the sort of restrictions applied to TV and radio, under FCC jurisdiction. The Steve Jackson Games and Neidorf cases settled that issue, and paved the way for the uncensored World Wide Web we have today.
And it worked. Anybody can start a web site. All the nuts have web sites, and nobody cares. Yes, there's a lot of grousing from the right, and we have to keep watching for new censorship schemes, but censorship lost.
John Nagle
(Of course, that's not why the whole thing happened. The whole hacker crackdown was caused by an administrative screwup. The FBI and the Secret Service agreed by memo that the Secret Service would take over computer crime cases, the thinking being that the SS, which is part of Treasury and handles fraud-against-the-government stuff, knew something about computers. They didn't, but they were under pressure to Do Something, so they went off in the wrong direction. In a way, this worked out well, because they brought such dumb cases that the cases could be definitively won on First Amendment grounds. It would have been much worse if they'd gone after somebody who was actually doing something bad, like promoting a stock fraud and happened to be running a BBS as part of the fraud. We could have ended up with a whole regulatory structure for BBSs, and growing the Web would have been uphill all the way.)
Re:i agree. (Score:3)
So are you saying (Score:3)
The fact that it's illegal to duplicate recordings isn't anything new. And it doesn't take away any of my freedom (except where my freedom would infringe upon others' freedom, namely the owners of the copyright).
Using DeCSS to decrypt your DVD and play it in Linux is not wrong.
Copying mp3 files without compensating the copyright holders is wrong.
There's a world of difference. As a community, we need to grow up and accept that.
...
I'm a paranoid m********ker and I'm rabid about protecting my privacy.
I detest consumerism.
I avoid debt.
I work way more than 10 hours a day.
I vote, and I use my vote (and my voice) to protect my rights (how many of the rest of you vote? I bet more of you should).
And theft is still wrong. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to like the industry. Theft is not the answer.
Loyd Blankenship WAS a cracker! (Score:2)
The author of the GURPS Cyberpunk book, one Loyd Blankenship, AKA "The Mentor", was a member of the LEGION OF DOOM hacking group that was infamous in the 80s and early 90s.
The raid had very little to do with the game he was writing and everything to do with the fact that the government had reason to believe he was involved in a number of real, illegal cracking incidents.
Having said all of that, clearly the government overstepped its bounds in the SJGames raid and deserved to be pushed back by the EFF, et al, but SJGames is now engaging in REVISIONIST HISTORY by claiming they were raided simply because of the subject matter of the game!!!
Re:Was it really wrong? (Score:4)
This is not just flat, flat wrong, it's a dairty blaack LIE.
I was in charge of the Illuminati BBS for a very long time. I was also one of the editors on the GURPS Cyberpunk project. For those who don't know, Cyberpunk was a near-future supplement for SJG's GURPS roleplaying system. The only rules for hacking into systems it contained would let you hack into systems that existed nowhere but in the gameplayers' imagination and in the rulebooks. It had about as much to do with real-world computers as Dungeons and Dragons had to do with real-world witchcraft, which is to say, absolutely nothing. We made all the stuff up.
The Secret Service went completely ape over the manuscript and described it as "a handbook for computer crime," not even realizing it was a GAME which had NO BASIS IN REALITY any more than Monopoly might.
We did not allow copyrighted or illegal material on Illuminati. Period. We even went so far as to delete song lyrics people posted (e.g. Queen's "I'm In Love With My Car" on the Car Wars section) because they were copyrighted. We were a publishing company, and we took copyrights very seriously because we wanted people to take ours seriously. And we most certainly were not passing around stolen credit card numbers, blueprints to the BellSouth 911 system or any of the other things we were supposed to have had on the system.
How could you expect the FBI to know this? You could expect them to get in touch with someone who knows the difference between fact and fiction, and build a case of probable cause before raiding a publishing company.
-- Creede Lambard
Former sjsop, Illuminati BBS
"This Game is Real" (Score:2)
Re:$50,000 of damages? (Score:2)
Anyway, you can buy copies of the Cyberpunk [sjgames.com] sourcebook here [warehouse23.com], on their online store.
Steven E. Ehrbar
Re:Extremely off topic (Score:2)
If you want to use those terms, fine. But it would be much more accurate to say that their purpose is to meet deadly force with deadly force. You don't use guns to defend yourself against knives. You use them to defend yourself against other guns. The proper use of handguns is only for practice, hunting and dire emergencies.
"But what about people who acquire guns legally and then go crazy and go on a killing spree?"
If you'll recall, those assholes at Columbine also weilded pipe bombs. The reason there was no outcry to ban pipe bombs is because they were already illegal. If the guns they used were illegal, they still would have had the bombs!
These senseless killings, particularly against children, stir at our emotions so much that many people turn off their brains and let their feelings rule. Banning guns is treating the symptom but letting disease continue to fester. Guns were just as widely available in the first half of this century as they are now. Yet no one ever heard of schoolyard shootings until a couple of decades ago. This disease has become an epidemic of death because people are too focused on the symptoms.
"DOES A GUN IN THE HOME MAKE YOU SAFER?"
What a stupid article. What stupid statistics. Don't you realize that people who own an automobile are 22 times more likely to die in an automobile accident than those who don't? Don't you realize that those who own a swimming pool have a 220% greater chance of their children accidentally drowning than those that don't?
Owning a handgun and keeping it locked up in a safe in the basement won't protect anyone any better from crime. But not owning a gun while putting a sign in your window saying you do is very effective.
"You are blinded by NRA propaganda into thinking a gun makes you safe in your home when the truth is quite the opposite."
And you are deluded by the liberal press into believing that banning guns solves crime. Murder has been outlawed for how many millenia now? Five or six? If banning murder doesn't stop murder, you're smoking dope if you think banning guns will eliminate guns.
Re:Steve Jackson (Score:2)
Re:Extremely off topic (Score:2)
When someone can tell my why I was safer as a child thirty years ago when assault weapons were legal, than children are today when they are not, then I'll listen to their gun control arguments.
Metarevisionism (Score:2)
At any rate, whoever moderated this post up wasted their points. It was either a complete troll or completely uninformed, and either way it doesn't deserve a mapping into the realm of positive integers.
--
Re:SJG Still In Business after 10 years - not bad! (Score:2)
And you're right -- that's quite an accomplishment.
--
Re:Extremely off topic (Score:2)
And I don't think there's any one single cause behind the recent random violence in society. It stems from several causes. Your supposition may work in the big city, but it is by no means the only cause, and hardly explains Columbine or the rise of gangs in Small Town, USA.
Re:So are you saying (Score:2)
Legally, yes. Morally, not always.
If I decide I want to MP3 a song so I can put it on a Rio to listen to while jogging, I should be able to. I'm not distributing, I'm just enabling effective use of material I've already been granted a license to use.
Or if I want to MP3 a song then stick it on my computer to give me a decent digital jukebox, I should be allowed. Same reason.
Or, for an example I actually DO
The problem here is that they're trying to restrict entirely fair and reasonable uses, with an exaggerated excuse.
Greg
Re:Ah, the glory years (Score:2)
As for Mitnick, he was those things, but also a scapegoat. Either way, it doesn't make what happened to either the Weavers or Mitnick right.