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Games Entertainment

Importing PSX2 Illegal? 156

Posted by CmdrTaco from the goddammit! dept.
An anonymous reader sent us to a gamepot article that tells us that importing a PSX2 (currently available only in Japan) is actually illegal. The demand on this box is amazing, but consider what it is capable of, its probably well deserved.
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Importing PSX2 Illegal? More

Importing PSX2 Illegal?

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  • ...That'll put up with games that are in Japanese. I really don't think that the region lockout is so valuable from Japan to US as many media items in Japan retail for more than the US versions.
  • I thought one of the WTO goal was to ensure that there should be free market for whatever product!
    how does it come that a company has a right to decide what is legal/illegal to import?
  • Perhaps we're all supposed to be 'quiet Eurotrash'?

    I'm certainly quiet, and am often mistaken for being British... hmmm.
  • My local grey importer has signs up claiming they will have them for sale on Monday(I'm in the UK), and that they have more pre-orders for that than for the Dreamcast when it first appeared. Illegal it may be, but it's still going to happen, and people will put up with Japanese versions, just to be first on the block to play these things.
    On a side note, being in the UK, we're region2, same as Japan. Will the same rules apply for import/export here?
  • They said it was illegal to export - that doesn't mean that local law overseas prohibits owning it!
  • Slashdot happily posted my UK story on DVD regional coding and posts lots of stories from the BBC. It is weighted in favor of American stories, but that is only natural considering its origins and the fact that a substantial proportion of its readers and submitters are American.

    Maybe however there should be a 'Yurop' section for articles of special interest to readers on the other side of the pond. The laws of the EU and our national governments have far more impact and interest than US Congress and State legislation.

    It is often painfully true that some Americans don't even know where Europe is, let alone talk about it. OTOH, I doubt I could locate a lot of US cities, so maybe we're even on that score.

  • My PS2 should be arriving at my "home" within 34 hours (morning of March 4th JST) and I will be leaving Germany tomorrow to go to Japan. I'd even love to skip the two week skiing in the US to get there sooner, but that's already paid for. (;_;)

    Nevertheless, after my home-leave is over, I will definetly bring the PS2 back to Germany. If the DVD playback quality is really as good as my Pioneer box, I'll get rid of the Pioneer, as Japan and Europe have the same region code and I'll be watching stuff from "home" mostly anyway.

    Yes, it is illigal to export the PS2 from Japan. But the same applied to my PC, which included a SSL-enabled browser (and GPG and SSLLeay and crypt() and....), when I moved to Germany last summer. Officially, I could take it with me for a temporary export up to 6 month and personal use only. But as there never has been any record kept on when and what I took out, this export-restiction can't really be enforced. I am more worried if the German customs will let me take it in.

    BTW, Sony's own direct-selling site revealed name and adress of their customers just by changing the cusomer-id in the URL. Now fixed but another scandal for Sony, after their site was toooootaly overwhelmed when they started to take reservations.
  • has anyone considered that sony might have encrypted the memory sticks to prevent the bleem's of the world from copying the functionality of the PSX2? or is this just a happy(?!?) side effect?
  • When crypto is outlawed, only outlaws will have crypto. Where's Charlton Heston when you need him?

    -B
  • Don't the police have to have reason to believe you have the key as well? (Obviously it has to be a <EM>good</EM> reason, like you being black, or Irish, or them just not liking your face...) I think that would probably be unlikely with PS2 and DVD.
  • If you want a DVD player that works everywhere, check out www.codefreedvd.com [codefreedvd.com]
  • The article just says it's illegal to transport the psx2. But they don't say who's laws it would be a violation of. Although US encryption laws are pretty fucked up, they haven't tried to stop Americans from using, and importing, whatever encryption they want. The same with supercomputers (although, the article doesn't say that that's what this is about).

    If this actually is the case, and not just someone's third hand misinterpretation of the "No exporting supercomputer" law like I think it is, it could really only be a violation of Japanese law. American people aren't beholden to Japanese laws, so we would be free to import it. Of course, the person you would be buying it from would be breaking the law... but you would be in the clear.

    If you ask me, this is ether a misinterpretation of the US's supercomputer export laws (witch say nothing about importing), or a cheap scam to raise the price of Japanese PSX2's in the US initially.

    [ c h a d &nbsp o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • hat way they can change the setup of the console and charge what they like in the US and Europe, safe in the knowledge that this time it's illegal for someone to import one from Japan where it'll likely be cheaper

    yeah, if I remember correctly the MSRP for the Japanese PSX2 is about $100 to $150 less than the hefty $370 opening price tag they'll be opening for here :/

    ----
    Dave
    Purity Of Essence
  • Don't forget Connectix. Sony also sued them for making the Virtual Game Station, another PlayStation emulator. They got screwed over far worse than Bleem did. They were prohibited from selling their product for something like 6 months. The court injunction given to Sony against Connectix was recently overturned.
  • No. FCC licensing is only required for devices available for sale in the United States. Gray market items like Japanese PS2's are a gray area... However, they are probably okay considered that even though the Japanese PS2 doesn't have an FCC sticker on the bottom (why would it?), it will undoubtedly pass the FCC tests required for them to sell in the US, if it hasn't passed those tests already.
  • Hmm yes... I just bought a Dreamcast... hmm

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • hmmm.... The original Article states they got this information from the offical PS2 site. It's not there. At least not anywhere I can see it.

    Also Wouldn't make exporting Illegal wouldn't North American Companies have some trouble developing for it?

    Official PSX Site [scei.co.jp]

  • Fear. Governments by and large get their powers by exploiting the fears of the masses. Crypto is a perfect example: "Why, if strong crypto gets out, then those TERRRRISTS and COMMIES and CHILD PO-NOGRAFAS and DROOG DEALERS will be able to getcha, sho nuff!" By its very nature, law enforcement seeks ever greater powers. Similarly, whenever situations arise that threaten its power, it fights back vigorously.

    More seriously, nation-states believe that the more intelligence information they have the better prepared they will be in the event of some military or terrorist threat. By being able to tap into any given communication channel, their abilities to prevent violent actions against the citizenry is arguably increased. Ergo we have law enforcement pushing legislatures (or parliaments) to restrict technologies that would interfere with their abilities to protect the population from external (or internal) threats.

    That's the LEA line, anyway. But since they are so secretive they haven't made a very good case to support their cause. No evidence has been presented showing that crypto has come into play in a single solitary case, nor that even if it did that convential detective methods would fail thereby.

    Plus, if you're LAPD you just shoot the fucker anyway, crypto or no.

    Honestly I wouldn't be too surprised if Japan was pressured by someone here state-side re: the PSX2. Freeh, et al are absolutely terrified that they won't be able to listen in on our conversations, and they have the pull to be able to coerce foreign powers to make "minor adjustments" for the overall "security situation."

    - rev

  • No other system has crypto stuff in it. The psx2 evidently uses a crytpographic approach to storing data on the memory card. I can not think of one good reason why, except to ride hype of privacy. But seriously, what kind of data would need encryption on a saved game?
  • You're smoking crack. Why not go pick up a DVD/MP3 player for half the cost of a PS2? Even cheaper still...throw a DVD-Rom on your PC and have a slightly less expensive, smaller viewing area?
  • Just an aside here.. the article doesn't say that it's illegal to import the PS2. It says that it's against Japanese law to bring one outside Japan. I presume that it's fine and dandy with the US or most other governments to bring one in...
  • PlayStation 2 is not yet available here in Japan. Two more days to go. (And there is already people waiting outside stores...)
  • >Why would they need bullet proof encryption on a console anyway?

    I would assume that its to prevent copying of software or making the memory chips only available from Sony and not some third-party which reverse-engineered it.

    I know that playstation and cartriges can be copied. Maybe this is to prevent this from happening.

    As to preventing exporting of the PS2, I would guess (again) that its to enforce the regional marketing/sales division. (One part of the world gets this, while another part of the world gets this other thing, just like region-codes in DVDs)

  • Sorry to disappoint you, but Nintendo delayed the Dolphin until Q3 2000 in order to make some kick-ass first party games, and let 3rd parties get some games going. AND they delayed the GameBoy Advanced because the GameBoy Color is selling so well.
  • The PSX2 promises to be the cheapest DVD player on the market, that alone is worth the price.

    Really? I just picked up a DVD player for $160+tax that also plays MP3s recorded to CD-R, and has a menu that allows you to defeat the region coding & Macrovision.

    PSX2 will be cheaper? Does it come with a remote?
  • Yes but can your DVD player outperform all PC's on the market like the PSX2 does?

    Yes, it does - it plays DVDs on my home television better than any PC on the market. Which is what I bought it for.

    If I'd wanted to run Linux, connect to the internet, do cellular automata experiments, write code, or play "Street-Fighting Kung-Fu Butt Monkeys" on it, the Aphex 600 is probably not the info-appliance I would have picked first.

    It might help if you defined "outperform". For all I know that means the PSX2 gets hotter faster than any PC on the market.
  • I'm just sick of exagerations, even if it's only $20.00.

    Apex 600, Circuit city, 18-Feb-2000, on sale.

    After reading about it (on /. no less) I went to the CC website [circuitcity.com], paid for it online to be picked up on the way home from work that day. When I got there the sales droid informed me it was on sale. Life is good.

  • It isn't the importing of the PS2 that is illegal, it is the exporting it from Japan that is illegal.

    Bingo. But to be fair, the headline on the original article was also wrong. Far be it for the story poster to actually read the entire 144 words before submitting it. Or do the moderators pick the headlines...?

    BTW, it's not specifically exporting, but simply transporting one outside of Japan. Meaning you can't take your PS2 on vacation with you, at least not legally.

  • you know there are other countries in the world. It's illeagal to export the playstation from japan. The us is not placing any restrictions japan is. So it's illeagal to export to any country or even to shoot it into space.
  • Sony is treating its customers as idiots. Sure, they might be able to sue an european shop for selling non CE approved electronic appliance, but they can't do anything against individuals at all. Once the product is in the hand of the end user there's nothing they can do. What, 2 years in jail because you played on you PSX 2 ? They are smoking something bad, or more likely trying to intimidate the average user. Hey, Sony us part of the MPA and RIAA, they also sued Bleem... they are your average big bad bullying corporation.
  • Anybody have any idea? I think it hasn't been officially announced yet, but is there a consensus on when it's likely to be?
  • I'm getting it!! The PSX2 promises to be the cheapest DVD player on the market, that alone is worth the price. And it has incredible graphics & games? What more could you ask for in a console?

  • Perhaps this will demonstrate to the casual observer that putting limits on exporting crypto can have a negative effect on the US. Telling someone that it hampers our efforts to broaden markets isn't quite the same thing as "see these cool games? You can't play 'em!"

  • I'm not the original poster, but he probably got it at Circuit City. It's the APEX 600AD just picked one up myself, I payed $180 though.
  • Sony is probably losing money on the Playstation 2. Where they get their money is from the games. If they sell more playstations, but the same number of games because a person in america bought an import then replaced it with the US version it affects their profits.

  • Wouldn't this be considered an action against some of the agendas of the WTO? I was under the impression that the WTO considered this type of action an unfair trade policy.

    Perhaps someone can clarify this for me...

    -vel
  • Many of the big PSX games are actually released in Japan several months before they're available in the US, which is the reason for US demand for PSX games. There are also some Japanese games that are never available in Japan. You'd be surprised how little the actual games are language-specific.
  • I can see why Sony wouldn't want to walk all over US/Euro publishers who translate a game and release it. However, many -- if not most -- Japanese games NEVER get released outside of Nippon.

    For example: a survey of the Shmups! Xenocide Files/Review Archive [classicgaming.com] shows that the percentage of 2D shooters on 32-bit consoles that made it out of Japan is small. There are some exceptions (R-Type Delta, Thunderforce V Perfect System), but they are the exceptions. And it's not like there's a lot to translate...

    If all we had to do was wait 3 months for a publisher to translate a game, that would be one thing. But when no publisher is willing or interested in releasing a game unless it is 3D polygonal eye-candy, the market becomes derivative, and the players suffer.
  • Obviously the PSX2 isn't just a game console. It has at least DVD capability and I bet Sony also implemented the possibility to present other media via the PSX2. Now if Sony plans to sell their own content for viewing on the PSX2 then it'd just make sense that they make sure you can't get at it.

    Also one should note that the restriction comes from the Japanese end and have thus nothing to do with the US crypto laws. I doubt that Sony will have problems getting the required permissions before long.

    What remains to be seen is how long it will take for eg. distributed.net to crak the encryption once the PSX2 falls into their hands;).

  • Why the encryption? Who cares. I wanna know: why the export restriction?

    Let's say I'm terrorist organization X. Tell me I can't get one single member or sympathizer of my crazy group into the US or Japan (or wherever else has these restrictions). He can then pick up a damned PSX2, stick it in his bag, and walk out.

    I'm all for being tough on terrorists--like "waste them and don't think twice about it" tough--but is this export restriction doing any good, or just impeding commerce?

    Steve

  • Um, just a small nitpick: Gameshark did not edit savegames. Well, the more recent ones edit icons on savegames. But that isn't how it cheats. It modifies locations in the console's memory, which generally isn't encrypted.
  • This all depends on the genre of the game, of course. The game I really want for my dreamcast (which is now nicely modded, by the nice people at NCS [ncsx.com]), Shenmue, would do no good for me to import. I'd be able to play it, sure, but it makes so much use of Japanese that I would have no idea what's going on, and that defeats the purpose of that entire genre. However ,fighting games and such (Like the PS2's oddly anticipated Tekken Tag Tournament) are usually almost completely in English; or if they're not, there's no real Japanese in there, just English in katakana (or words everyone knows... ichi ni san shi etc).
    I dunno why companies put a territory lock on their machines; the Game Boy didn't have one, and NOA didn't go broke because no one in the USA bought Japan versions of games. Sega doesn't care about locks any more; SOA has said that they aren't going to bother trying to lock out mod chips for the Dreamcast in any way. Japanese software is generally much more expensive to import than to buy locally; most inports are between $10 to $40 more expensive than a local release is. Generally USA localized versions are released within 3 or 4 months anyway.
  • PS2 Card looks much the same as the old one just 8MB instead of 1
  • I agree that it seems a bit unlikely that export would be prohibited for the given reason. If for no other reason than lack of practical use.

    Which begs the question, what happens when someone does export one?
    Does SONY then proceed to pull the product, and release an incompatable respin? Do they live with the stigma of having been caught generating FUD, with hard (pun, what pun?) evidence. I wish I knew more about the root source. How influential is SONY in the Japanese gov't?
  • What eBay decides to close or let slide tends to be pretty arbitrary.
  • Really? Please tell us where you bought this wonderful machine for $160.00!


    ----------

  • I'm just sick of exagerations, even if it's only $20.00.
    ----------
  • ...thus making it a legal requirement for you to break the DVD encryption. I like it!

    Something tells me that you wouldn't get away with that argument though.

  • > I can't see that as a good enough reason for Sony.

    Well, that's why you don't work for Sony's corporate planning division. It's obviously a good enough reason for them, since they're waiting an extra 6 mos. before releasing it elsewhere.

    Consider this - there is a huge market for the console, of course, and if Sony screws up their launch, they'll be hurting very badly for at least the next 5 years in terms of the video game market. By initially releasing to a limited market, they can work out any production problems, firmware bugs, mechanical failures, and compatibility problems before releasing to their bulk market overseas. And the Japanese market may be favorable to them in other ways, as well - they have a large market with small deployment costs (lots of customers over a relatively small geographical area), probably no troubles getting the units sold, and likely the feedback they do get will be from people who have all kinds of experience with different brands and models of game machines, DVD players, computers, and other personal electronics, giving them useful information on all areas of the new product. Once the initial release is done and they have a good idea what needs to change, then they'll release an updated unit in Japan and overseas, step up production, and probably have no problems getting even a fair number of the PSX2.0 owners to get a PSX2.1. Especially if there are problems with PSX2.0 (what are the chances...?) - and if they do wind up having to do some kind of recall (an extreme case), again, the cost will be much lower than if they had to coordinate it overseas.

    People who have no business experience and wish the world served their interests a lot more than it does often don't understand this. (Both of the above apply to me, I want a PSX2 w/o region encoding, and have no business experience) But you have to look at it from their perspective. If they screw this up, it's gonna cost them. Big time. That's the kind of thing that'll cost them their market lead. Making foreign markets wait 6 months is a safe move, which could also cost them (IE if Nintendo sneaks in a release) but almost certainly not nearly as much as a rush-release would.

    ---GEC
  • > Well my relative note to this discussion. I too cannot wait for both systems to be released so that we can once again crown Nintendo winner of the console wars. hehe ;)

    ...For the first time in 10 years, maybe. :P'

    NES was a winner, SNES as well (I suppose - had issues with censorship, among other things). N64 had technical superiority, but at the cost of game diversity and affordability. (Like a less-skewed Neo Geo). PSX won the 1995-1999 console war, because it's a great system with lots of games -- even if its hardware does suck (as evidenced by non-tag-team Street Fighter "vs" games, etc.)

  • "The two announced peripherals are the new PS2 analog dual shock controller and the 8-MB Memory Card. However, the new PlayStation2 peripherals will not work with PlayStation." from the ps2 faq [ign.com]

    you can use your old psx mem cards on the ps2. you can also use the new 8 MB ps2 mem cards on the ps2. they needed to keep the interface the same so that the old mem cards would work. one reason for the encryption is to keep sales of psx memory cards up, because an 8 MB mem card is equal to about 32 regular psx mem cards. and encryption defeats using a ps2 mem card in a psx.

    they would like to keep the markets seperated so they can generate as much profit from mem cards as possible, because everyone needs one. one way to combat this is to require an authorization code to use the ps2 mem card. if the psx can't send this signal, it won't work in the psx, and therefore, psx owners still need the psx mem cards.

    basically, it is just to keep the mem card markets seperate, and to generate a lot of profit they wouldn't have gotten if the ps2 mem cards would have worked in the psx.

  • Making it illegal to export to PSX2 comes as no big surprise to me. Sony has been known for in the past for trying to put region codes on the products and seeing how that can be circumvented this was the next logical step. Personally I'm quite enraged about this. I see no real good reason to screw over consumers. The pirates and those who want to rip Sony off are going to do so no matter what legal restrictions are put on the console. I would draw comparisons to other areas but I think that will be taken care of for me. No use in being redundant.


    Molog

    So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

  • Basically, sony Europe will sue anyone importing psx2 in Europe (businesses & individuals).

    How could they possibly do that? Remember, we're talking export control, not import. They can go after a business or indivdual who tries to export the thingie from Japan, but only in a Japanse court! Once it's outside Japan the only chance they (i.e. Sony) would have is if there's a domestic law somehow restricting import and sales of a products unlawfully exported from the place of origin. I've never heard of such a law that would, for instance, restrict the trade in my country a banned book written by a dissedent in some country with an opressive regeime ...

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Now, I can possibly see the reason why the US would block G4's from shipping because of their supposed power, but Japan blocking the PSX2 because of the encryption used on the memory cards? ROFL

    Hey distributed.net, while we're waiting for OGR to get fixed, can we work on breaking the memory card encryption to show it's not really that strong? ;)

  • Not really. Nissan and Ford have very close ties , in fact Nissan, Mazda and Ford have been involved in Joint Ventures since the 60's. It would never be allowed for Mazda to be owned by a forign company. Mazda has agreed has allowed some of it's joint ventures outside of Japan to have the controlling shares owned by Ford. This is not unusual because they also have JV's with Matsushita. Ford has increased it's shares of Mazda to 33.4 percent (Which was a scandel in itself.) 66 percent of Mazda Japan is owned by Japanesse interests. Ford is a large partner of Mazda and has enough stock in the company to throw some weight around. But Mazda is not "owned" by form. In fact is you go to Mazda's japanesse web site they have a page that is dedicated to explaining why Ford does not own Mazda.
  • Slashdot don't seem interest in non-american stories.

    Really? I do believe that BBC is an European based agency.

    In fact, almost all of slashdot's 'topic science' stories are direct links to BBC. I would say that is international enough for American based lives.
  • If this is, in fact, true; and I am not missing something, then I have a question. Why do governments pass these kind of idiotic rules/laws/whatever? This is right up the alley of the US government banning the export of strong encryption. The supposed premise is we don't want bad guys to get their hands on it, right? (after reading the article, it seems encryption may be what this about as well) All this prevents is LEGITIMATE business from exporting, because the "bad-guys" you don't want to get it couldn't give a shit that you outlawed it! WTF am I missing?
  • Encryption. The major part of the encryption is probably for the DVD's. We all know that there are people that got through the encryption once. Whos to say that there isn't going to be someone else that will crack this encryption process. This stand on making it illegal to transport PSX2, in my opion will only make things worse.
  • It is not illegal to import and psx but to export it from japan!!

    How come this story gets to see the light of day when european stories never make it to the sight.

    sparkes
  • 2 reasons for crypto on a save game:

    1. Storing your Pr0n, warez, and MP3 site passwords.

    2. Making it more difficult (not impossible, of course) for 3rd party hardware hacks for the save games, such as GameShark.

  • the interesting thing about PS2 DVD is that the movie player is software-driven, or at least a good portion. to run a DVD movie on your PS2, you have to insert your memory card, and the memory card has to have a 600k+ executable to run the movie player. I have a feeling this memory card file will be easier for hackers to to crack in order to allow DVD movies, but that means if you import a PS2, and you wanna watch American DVD movies, you'll have to import a memory card from China or something to get those movies to run. Speaking of hacking... one thing I think has been largely ignored about the PS2's crackability is the difference in CD-loading. Except for the original Sega CD, all previous CD consoles have been laid out like a Discman; that is, you open the console's lid and place the CD until it firmly stays in the turner. Because of this, people could "trick" the console by making it think the lid was closed, and therefore switch CDs (very useful to play import games on Playstation, for example). But PS2 goes back to the old-school Sega CD design, in which you click the eject button, the little tray comes out, you put the DVD in, and the tray closes. I don't know how much of a hassle that will make for hackers who are used to lid-tricks, but I doubt it'll make things any easier.

  • Get special permission from the Japanese Ministry of Trade and Industry.

    Not likely for the average consumer, I gather.

    Besides, we can wait: upgrade our home theatres in the meantime. ;)

  • The article mentions that one of the reasons given was the encryption used on the PSX2. We all know how governments can be with encryption, don't we.

    It seems to me that this is more of an attempt to prevent the encryption technology from falling into the hands of "Dangerous" countries such as Iraq, Iran, and such.

    I doubt that they would prevent it from being shipped into the US (although don't quote me on that), you'd just have to get permission, and probably prove that you're sending it to the US.

    It's kinda funny though. 5 year olds in Japan can have technology that certain countries aren't allowed to (or, more correctly, that we're trying to keep the technology away from).

    "No, Sadam, you can't have my PSX2!"
  • Sony Playstation 2 to debut on March 4, 2000 in Japan, Fall 2000 in Europe and North America. This as precise as I could find.
  • If you want to get an import PSX2, Daily Radar has a good article on how to score one: here [dailyradar.com].

    Also, an interesting fact was that Sony had to shut down their commerce web site because the site received 100,000 hits the first minute that PSX2 preorders went live.
  • I expect (but then, what would I know?) that this is out of date crypto export controls coming in to play - nothing more, nothing less. Ofcourse Sony wants to have decent crypto in this thing - lots of people are saying how you'll be able to download lots of lovely Sony-sourced movies/songs/whatever to your box via a cable connection (or whatever), so why shouldn't they put decent crypto there?

    While you Americans cry in to your Cheerios about how unfair it is you can't get your hands on these boxes for a few more months (how long do you think it'll take for the Japanese government to step aside to let Sony make billions for the Japanese economy off the back of the PS2?), i'll be having a good ol' chuckle to myself, thinking back to the days of poor ol' Zimmerman and the hassles he went through thanks to PGP and the US Governments futile attempts to stop the world getting it's hands on decent crypto.

    ...j
    (Gee, I must be in a bad mood today).
  • My guess would be that the PSX2 uses Memory Sticks as memory cards. Memory Stick technology uses Magic Gate to control access to MP3s and the like, which would account for the article.

    Does this mean that Magic Gate devices (such as Sony MP3 players and the like) are illegal to export from Japan without a licence, or is the PSX issue something to do with geographic zoning and international IP treaties or somesuch?
  • The postwar Japanese constitution enshrines privacy as a right to the point of ruling out restrictions on cryptography. Given the title of this law (International Foreign Exchange and Trade Law), I'd guess it's a WTO or WIPO thing, which possibly overrides the local laws of signatory nations.
  • Sounds like a good idea to me! let me know when you've got it running.
  • Previous news reports have stated that the DVD playback software for PS2 resides *on the memory card* (it can also be reloaded onto the card from a utility disc that comes with the system). Therefore under the DVD Forum/DVD-CCA license ("protect the CSS code at all costs") they MUST encrypt the memory cards.

    OTOH, it's apparently a proprietary encryption scheme, and we know how well those usually fare...
  • - that oughta keep the mystique going :)
    Nothing boosts demand (and consequently $$$) for something than having it prohibited :)) - highly desirable, in demand, artifically limited supply - econ 101 formula for big ticket, thick margins, yeah!!

  • Distributed.Net DOES NOT illegally break encryption. It participates in legal competitions...
  • Given the fact that Sony released the original PlayStation in the US market on September 9, 1995, my guess is that Sony is aiming for a September 9, 2000 release date.

    This will be extremely auspicious because it's also the one-year anniversary of the US release of Dreamcast.
  • I mean, it's prohibited under Japanese law. So suppose I find a way to acquire one and remove it from Japanese soil? I simply don't take any trips somewhere where the Japanese have jurisdiction.

    It's not like the US is going to permit extradition of a US citizen to Japan for importing a video game in violation of Japanese export controls any more than they would allow extradition of a US citizen to Saudi Arabia for illegally importing Playboy into that country (or *gasp* simply putting nude pictures on the internet where Saudi citizens can download them).

    The world is a pretty complex place. Just because you offend a particular government doesn't mean all that much if you are beyond that government's reach... consider how publications like the New American treat the governments of China, Russia, Cuba, et al.





    This is my opinion and my opinion only. Incidentally, IANAL.
  • How hard would it be to get consent from the Department of Trade and Commerce?

    Just curious...

    -AS
  • son, I will not have you taking Gen. MacArthur's name in vain! :)

    Pope
  • My question is how long will it be before the NSA wants keys to the encryption used by the PSX2? Will they be demanding that importing of the PSX2 be made illegal?

  • To date no japanese company has ever been purchased by a forign company.

    Not true!

    Mazda is owned by Ford, Nissan by Renault. I can't think of other examples off the top of my head.

    Japan was a protectionist country, though - and do you know what organisation did the most to stop it? the World Trade Organisation - also known as the WTO.

  • I can't see that as a good enough reason for Sony.

    There's a good sized market for import consoles before their launch over here. Bumps up Sony's sales figures very nicely. But they don't always play the UK spec games so they get replaced when the proper ones come out.

    But, this way, they only get the one sale...

    I'm wondering whether this might actually be an unintended side-effect.

    Greg
  • Apparently the US has been exporting its stupid export regulations.
  • And even if the PSX2 does outperform my PC (which it may very well do), that doesn't make it a useful workstation -- I can't run Linux OR Windows on a PSX2, so what good does it do me?

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Ok, here's the thing, this definately something that Sony wants. I mean, the laws in Japan are extremely favorable to megacorporations. In past years, there was a fight over whether it was even legal to sell used games under Japanese copyright laws:

    Used Games Under Fire in Japan [gamespot.com]

    Sony has worked very hard to keep Americans, Japanese and Europeans from buying and using import products. For example, a lot of the new Japanese games that come out contain code which can detect whether you have a mod-chip in your Playstation (Dino Crisis is the best example I can think of. This detection can be beaten, but it is starting to get into the "it's more trouble than it is worth catagory."). They do not want people to be able to region jump.

    In my case, they have thoroughly alienated my business. I have no interest in Sony products any more, and won't buy from them. Now, this isn't me proposing a boycott or anything, this is just me getting disgusted by a company that treats consumers like garbage. I'm sure Playstation II will do well, I'm sure that unlike previous systems it will be more taylored to what the bosses of Sony think each region should get. I expect to see a lot of "lowest common denominator" games come out, and people won't be able to get things from outside their region.

    That's ok by me, it'll give me more money to spend on my computer.


  • The Playstation 2 is what is known as a category killer. Not just a console but a DVD player, firewire gives it the ability to connect to disk-drives, video cameras and of course the web.

    Secure e-commerce from your TV. Welcome to a plan for World Domination. But at least this one comes in a sexy box :-)
  • So, it's called a PlayStation [2], and abbreviated PSX or PSX2.

    Where the heck does the X come from?
    --
  • I wonder what type of action Sony will take against eBay? I'm guessing that there will be auctions as soon as they become available in Japan and if the price isn't too high, I'll even bid on them.

    Its like the few weeks before Christmas. I remember people going out there buying Furbies and then selling (scalping) them on eBay.

    The demand is there, or here...depending on how you look at it and the supply is in Japan.

    I wonder though, would the "American" stuff work on a Japanese box once the PSX2 games arrived here?

    -Vel
  • The US relaxed their rules on Supercomputer exports specifically so that the Playstation 2 wouldn't be banned - though they missed a bit and the highest-speed G4 Mac is still regulated. (There are leftover Cold War regs against selling big computers to Commies.)


    I don't know if the US talked Japan into regulating supercomputer exports, but they did talk them into crypto export regs, primarily in response to the (NTT or NEC?) development of an RSA chip.


    "Can't Export Without A Permit" doesn't mean you can't export it - it just means you need to get a permit. If the motivation here really is restricting gray-market sales of Japanese versions of the product to the US, Sony probably can manipulate the permit process to prevent it.

  • After years of the U.S. restricting crypto from export, the shoe may finally be on the other foot.

    My instinct tells me that it is unlikely that the Japanese government would place export restrictions on cryptographic technology that would be approved for a game machine. Still, its kind of interesting to imagine all the righteous indignation felt on the part of U.S. consumers when we (the U.S.) have been doing it to the rest of the world for years. I kind of hope it is illegal. Maybe we deserve it.
  • Why would they need bullet proof encryption on a console anyway? This just seems like a real blunder on Sony's part.

    Why would they need encryption and region codes on DVD's anyway? This just seems like a real blunder on the DVD-CCA's part. They knew the risks, they had to know DeCSS could/would happen. I don't get it.

    Thanks 348...=)

  • I found the following article which provides a little bit of info on why the PSX2 seems to be considered *hot*.. Here [sony.com] is a link to a Sony press release talking a bit about that "Magic Gate", it's topical but has few technical details..

  • I'm wondering whether this might actually be an unintended side-effect.

    It's kinda hard to tell from the article whether Sony had intended this or knew about it in advance, but I would imagine a company with Sony's experiance and resources would have been able to work this out in advance. So they must have had a good reason for this.

    I'm guessing that it's to do with the fact that it's a DVD player as well as a games console. Each region will get a PSX2 specifically coded to accept only DVDs from their region.

  • Sorry, Everything on a data-carrier of any kind needs to be decrypted in one way or another. Remember that Braille is unreadable for most of us. In the end what matters is if the data can be read of the carrier in some way or another and can be made legible. Well with your dvd and the PS2 that is the case. You need one of those players. With normal encryption, like RSA, Blowfish etc. it is a key that you hold that you have to give. The thing is not the encryption. The thing is that somebody (the lawenforcer) has to be able to read it.

  • Re:Sony don't want it exported yet (Score:3)

    by vitaflo ( 20507 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @06:13AM (#1231468) Homepage
    But, this way, they only get the one sale...
    I'm wondering whether this might actually be an unintended side-effect.

    Yes, they only get one sale, but it's one sale of a machine that loses them money. Remember, the real money is in the software, and this is the whole reason for territorial lockout.

    The premise is like this...Let's say JapanCo is making a cool fighting game and it sells like hotcakes in Japan. Because of this they're going to make it available State-side, but AmeriCo is going to publish it over here. What happens when everyone was able to easily buy the Japanese game when it came out instead of waiting for the American release? AmeriCo loses a lot of money, gets pissed off, and doesn't make as many games for PS2. This in turn makes Sony lose money (less games, less money). It's not about making people happy as much as it is not wanting to piss off publishers. This is why you need a mod chip to play Japanese games on the American PS1.

    I suspect this whole "illegal import" deal is just another phase of that. Every territorial lockout has had a solution provided at some point. Making it illegal to even export the product from Japan is probably the best way they could have done what normally is done in the hardware to stop Westerners from playing Eastern PS2 games.

  • Sony don't want it exported yet (Score:3)

    by spiralx ( 97066 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @04:57AM (#1231469)

    Well Sony don't really want anyone exporting their console from Japan before they're ready to launch it overseas. That way they can change the setup of the console and charge what they like in the US and Europe, safe in the knowledge that this time it's illegal for someone to import one from Japan where it'll likely be cheaper. Remember Sega's antics with the Megadrive/Genesis? It's similar except this time Sony have actually managed to get the law behind them.

  • Nothing to do with Crypto (Score:3)

    by Kagato ( 116051 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @06:02AM (#1231470)
    I doubt this story has anything to do with crypto or the ilk. Japan is a very protectionist country. If a large company like sony (Who's profits have been on the decline because of the yen) asks to Japanese gov't keep the PSx2's inside the country so marketing doesn't get ruined then that's what is going to happen.

    To date no japanese company has ever been purchased by a forign company.

    When the first American company (Cargill, Inc. the largest private company in the world) attempted to trade on the nippon market they were boycotted. They had to enter into a partnership with a Japanese company before anyone would accept their trades.

    This is nothing new to a country that has a long history of being over protective with their markets.

  • Why ?? (Score:3)

    by 348 ( 124012 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @04:39AM (#1231471) Homepage
    Why would they need bullet proof encryption on a console anyway? This just seems like a real blunder on Sony's part. They know the restrictions, they had to know this could/would happen. I don't get it.

  • Get 'em while you can! (Score:4)

    by Delta-9 ( 19355 ) <delta9 AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday March 02, 2000 @05:26AM (#1231472)
    Someone [ebay.com] has 6 brand new PSX2s forsale on eBay.

    I am sure eBay will cancel the auction if this is really illegal.

    -d9

  • Sony Fud (Score:4)

    by krolours ( 21186 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @05:08AM (#1231473)
    I think encryption is not the true reason.
    It's more a DVD-like case ; they just don't want europeans and americans to get japanese pxs2.

    Check this articl e [zdnet.fr] (in french) :
    Basically, sony Europe will sue anyone importing psx2 in Europe (businesses & individuals).

  • PS2 in UK (Score:4)

    by michael.creasy ( 101034 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @07:16AM (#1231474) Homepage
    As the PS2 contains encryption and I live in the UK, if the police asked me to see what was encrypted on my PS2 (assuming I had one) and I couldn't decrypt it, I'd be breaking the law. So doesn't that make possesion of a PS2 in the UK illegal ??

    Which makes me think - if I owned a DVD but no DVD player I'd also be in possession of encrypted data I couldn't decrypt....

  • Re:Why ?? (Score:5)

    by Genom ( 3868 ) on Thursday March 02, 2000 @07:18AM (#1231475)
    OK - here goes (hopefully I won't screw this up)

    Encryption: Needed to protect the DVD player code under license from DVD-CCA. They require this. If Sony wants their machine to legally play DVDs, they have to play by DVD-CCAs rules (unfortunately)

    Region codes: $$$. By implememting region codes on the DVDs and games and whatnot, they can charge $x for the game/dvd in Japan (where $x is the going price over there for such things) and charge $y for the game/dvd in the US (where $y is the going price over here for such things).

    Now, the industrious, smart person, in a world free of region codes, might say:

    "Hmm...Considering the exchange rate, I can import the game from Japan cheaper than I can buy it here in the US."

    ...and proceeds to do this. It doesn't matter to the companies if the game has been released here or not. They view it as losing $ since this smart person is getting the game for less than they'd like to sell it to him for *where he is*.

    Thus, region codes are implemented.

    Now technically, as far as I can understand, price fixing based on location is illegal (IANAL, so any who are, can you confirm this?) - but somehow they've managed to circumvent that by placing blocks in the HARDWARE that prevent playback of games/dvds from other "regions".

    Now...as for DVD-CCA knowing that DeCSS would happen? Sure they did. And I'm sure their thoughts went something like this:

    "We should encrypt the data, and use a key to decrypt it, but license the keys, so we make $$ every time someone wants to make a player, or encode their movies to DVD."

    "Good idea - but how should we encrypt it - Hiring someone good at crypto is expensive, and there are export restrictions - this could cost us a lot of $!"

    "So we use a weaker, easier crypto to encrypt it."

    "But it'll get "cracked" by those "hackers" who will pirate the DVDs and players and we'll lose more $!

    "No problem - by the time they do that, we'll have made enough money to take them to court. They won't be able to afford to fight it out long in court, so we'll win. Then we'll have a legal prescedent in our favor, and we'll win all the other cases we decide to fight on similar ground."

    ...and so, a couple years down the road, here we are, DeCSS is a reality, and the DVD-CCA is suing one of the "authors" (see past /. articles for explanation - I'm not getting into that here).

    ::sigh:: It's sad that the US legal system allows stuff like this to happen. The consumer is bilked out of as much $ as possible, and noone has the $ to fight the corps in court (the EFF is making a valiant effort though!). Thus, the corps not only get what they want, but they make it harder for anyone to challenge them in the future. Their power grows, and the power of the consumer to fight against them is diminished.

    The solution isn't government. PACs and "special interest groups" have seen to that. The corps just sponsor some SIG with enough cash to buy the votes they need in congress, or to push through laws with "amendments" that serve their purposes and provide loopholes for them.

    So the government isn't going to help. The corps have made it nearly impossible to fight them in court, so the courts won't help either. What can help? I don't know. Things may be too far gone to be salvaged.

    BUT there are organizations like the EFF that are TRYING to fight crap like this. Hopefully they'll make a difference.

    OK, I've rambled on FAR longer than I should ::grin:: Time to get back to work.

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