E3: Linux Still Waiting In The Wings 175
This year's Electronic Entertainment Expo was a great disappointment. Not just to see the state of the PC gaming industry in the ongoing PC vs. Console war, but to see that Linux was even less prominent at this show than it was at Game Developer Conference just a few months ago. Two things can be garnered from this observation. The first is that, as Linux users know, the power of Linux comes from the people, not from the marketing guy in the corner office. GDC was a show for the programmers, artists, designers and tools manufacturers. E3 on the other hand is a show for the marketing and public-relations representatives to vie with their peers for coveted media attention. The second thing is that Linux gaming has gone nearly as far as it will go without increasing the number of Linux users who will buy Linux games.
This is not meant to be a gloom-and-doom piece, but rather a summary of where Linux gaming is today, and to point out a few of the more interesting Linux gaming products represented at the show. Several important issues still need to be resolved for Linux to be supported by mainstream companies. Today, the biggest obstacle is really threefold: It's to convince marketing people that 1. there is a market of Linux users who use the OS for more than just servers, 2. that the market is large enough to support first rate games, and 3. that the publishers can make money supporting Linux, or their developers can gain great enough non-monetary benefits to justify the expense of developing for and supporting multiple platforms.
While talking with marketing representatives from mainstream companies like Red Storm, Hasbro, and EA, each representative was familiar with what Linux was, but did not expect that they would be supporting the OS in the foreseeable future. However, nearly every developer I talked to was interested in supporting Linux. For the next year, it is important that we as a community not forget that while vast market share has been gained in the server world, the desktop is still an enigma for most marketing people. Many of these marketing people simply don't understand why anyone would use Linux on the desktop instead of Windows. The tend to share the often-correct assumption that "the Linux users all have Windows anyhow."
Only a handful of developers at the show actually promoted the fact that they supported Linux. Of these, none that I saw actually demonstrated their games running on it. However, when asked about their experience developing a game for multiple platforms, all said that it was a very positive experience. In fact, the result according to one was significantly improved code. This may be the way games come to Linux; as the standard Windows-based PC platform slowly erodes because of the ever increasing power of consoles, the Macintosh and Linux platforms have recently gained market share in the PC arena. If game developers begin designing their games for multiple platforms then Linux will be a great beneficiary, as will the quality of the code itself.
The availability of development tools and engines supporting Linux is something that I first noticed at GDC in March, and was well in evidence at E3 as well. Many 3D engines now promote the fact that they support Linux; one that stuck out as special was GameBlender, a 3D game development tool and engine from Netherlands-based Not A Number (NaN). The company is building a large community of developers. GameBlender's user-base is also growing rapidly; currently the number of registered users is upwards of 65,000, with more than 250,000 downloads to date. GameBlender incorporates a complete 3D-creation package with game design and game playback, allowing anyone to author and publish interactive 3D worlds and real-time interactive 3D animations. Unique to GameBlender is support for Linux on PPC, Alpha and x86 among other OS's The GameBlender User Conference recently held in Amsterdam illustrates the company's commitment to the community. For the event, NaN sponsored 24 developers from around the world who gathered to work with GameBlender on new projects. This engine, unlike many others available today, is not first-person-shooter specific, nor is it priced in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. GameBlender is aimed at the end user and games as diverse as mech combat, flight sims and racing games are already in production. A free demo can currently be downloaded from the Blender Web site, and the full version is planned for release at Siggraph 2000 in New Orleans this summer.
Also shown was the much-anticipated X-Box competitor from Indrema. The New York-based company is promising to change the way we think about entertainment on Linux and also to solve of the issues that game developers encounter while trying to support Linux. They plan to provide support for developers as well as a stable target platform for developers. This helps solve the issue of fragmentation that currently exists because there are so many 'standards' without support for things like sound and graphics under Linux. The company appears dedicated to open source and will be supporting OpenAL, Mesa 3D, and OpenStream for video and multimedia control. However the device will not support the standard X Window System. Instead, Indrema has developed Xtrema, a system claimed to be compatible with the X Window system components necessary to support the DRI. Therefore, existing X Window applications will be able to support Xtrema with little or no modification.
No demonstration model or screenshots of the interface were available at the show however, and no specifics available on what developers would be supporting the platform. The product is exciting nonetheless, and I look forward to a Linux-based console. They promise to unveil the first generation product in the July or August but not necessarily at Linux World Expo. The L600 will contain a PIII-600, 64 megs of RAM, a hard drive, and an upgradeable, next-generation GPU developed by nVidia. At launch, Indrema expects to have web browsing, e-mail, mp3 and DVD playback as well as at least one game title included and ready to go out of the box. The output from the device is for HDTV and standard TVs but no monitor out is planned. This is an entertainment console, not a PC. At an expected $299 MSRP, this may be the gift of choice for the geek on your holiday shopping list. I can't think of anyone who doesn't need a mp3, DVD player, and console so they can play their favorite Linux games.
Over the past year Linux has come a great distance, but it has long way to go before first-tier developers and publishers support it. Neverwinter Nights, a tremendous title that was demonstrated at the show, may be the first AAA game to support Linux out of the box. It was shown in a private booth in the back of the basement of the main hall but I am convinced it was just because they wanted to keep the secret to themselves. This title promises to take the world of the Dungeons and Dragons universe and allow gamers to develop their own adventures and share them with other gamers online. While the title is still at least a year from release, this product is amazing and deserves an entire article to itself. The developer, BioWare, is supporting several platforms with the product, including Windows. Not only is the game going to have a significant online potential, but also the developers are promising a well developed single-player game as well. Everything from the beautiful game engine to the attitude of the developers and their track record of having developed such complex titles as Baldur's Gate promotes optimism about it.
Overall, E3 this year was disappointing for Linux gamers. The enthusiasm so evident at Linux Expos, at user groups and among developers has not trickled up to the marketing people. Until it does, it doubtful that Linux will have a steady stream of first-class games like Windows does. Linux as a platform has reached the threshold where any developer who wishes to support Linux can do so fairly easily; now it is a matter of us developing the user base so that marketing people can be convinced to develop more games for us. I don't fault the evil marketing people for not supporting Linux today. In fact I am excited to hear mainstream developers remark to me, 'Wow, a lot of people are asking me about Linux,' as several did when I asked them about their plans for the platform. Over the next year, as more new developers such as Vicarious Visions and Bioware, join Loki in developing for the Linux platform, we need to remember to support them, so that they continue to make that decision for future products.
The future is still bright for Linux gaming, though. Linux is an operating system that has only recently come into the radar screen of mainstream companies. As such, there is a significant deficit of proven marketing statistics and developers with proven track records. To a great extent, it is up to us as Linux gamers to vote with our dollars, pounds, pesos, francs and deutsche marks and buy the Linux games that are available. At the same time, we must strive to increase the sheer number of Linux users in the desktop arena. Until publishers feel there is a market for Linux games then most likely there will continue to be a deficit of high quality Linux game titles.
Re:Linux Games (Score:2)
Support By Peers/Linux Community/Quake3 (Score:2)
I bought Quake3 for Linux. I know a couple of people who purposedly waited for the Linux version to pop up and bought that version, in the express purpose of proving that linux users will buy commercial software, and entertainment at that. The second reason is because they all liked what Carmack has done with the linux community, as well as the open source community. GPL'd quake/doom anyone?
Aside from first person shooters, what other games are being developed for more than one platform? Not many. This is partially because geeks like quake (a lot, myself included). Another is because id started the tradition of porting FPS to unix with xdoom. They continue to port to linux, and have forced their competition to port their FPS' to linux (Unreal was the first real competitor, duke didn't have a GL driver or any good mods).
Now that loki has started to port games other than FPS' to linux, developers will notice that the games do sell. Prediction: a popular/influential gaming house will release a non-fps game on multiple platforms and its competitors will need to do the same to compete. It will spread like this...maybe.
Another point is that if developers develop games for MacOS X, you would think that the transition to linux/unix wouldn't be as different than win32->linux or win32->MacOS X.
I continue to watch hopefully. This year's E3 hosted games which started developing before loki had many games out for linux. I predict that next year's E3 will have a few games with linux ports, and the year after that, it will boom (linux will have good 3D by then for sure).
Anyone agree with any part of this?
Re:Let's use Napster to distribute Linux games...N (Score:1)
If I hadn't already posted and had some moderator points, I'd rank you as Insightful.
Seriously, this really starts to come down to a value issue. For some reason young males 18-25 value computer games over pretty much every thing else.(except Taco Bell)
Even music. I think with music as you get older you begin to appreciate particular types of music and it becomes more important to you to have a good copy of the music, thus you purchase the CD.
I know at least when I was in college, I didn't mind listening to say Pet Shop Boys(does this give an idea how old I am?), but I really didn't care enough about their music to want to buy it to have around forever. So what I did was make tape copies from friends, or even tape their songs off the radio.
But I've bought more music over the past 2 years than I ever did while in college, and it doesn't have much to do with me making more money. I bought a lot more pizza in college than I do now.
Anyway, for the RIAA now I think one of the key items in this world which will help them is to make the value of a CD much more than the value of an MP3 off Napster. And as of right now that is only true if the music is of a complex nature and the listener can appreciate the sound difference.
This will only last until storage and transmission costs go down such transmitting a full sampled WAV file via Napster is appealing.
Well perhaps at that point, we'll have educated the population such that they can now realize why the CD is also a poor recording medium and they'll be buying DVD-audio discs at 96Khz samping, 24 bit... or whatever the latest and greatest is.
No way you're going to download a gig of data for one song.
Well at least for another 5 years or so.
Re:Embedded Linux Will Win (Score:1)
Here's my [radiks.net] DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?
Re:Let's use Napster to distribute Linux games...N (Score:1)
But just how many people actually use Napster? Probably only a few million, which makes that a rather large percentage.
Re:How much/long should I pay a "Linux Tax" for a (Score:1)
http://www.microprose.com
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:1)
Re:How much/long should I pay a "Linux Tax" for a (Score:1)
And does Commander Keen not predate Wolfenstein 3D?
OT yes, but that's not how id set up it's distribution channel. Not unless I'm very mistaken.
X-Box? (Score:1)
Check out www.xbox.com for some of the neato demos that show what's possible on the system. I am very impressed with this, and am very curious about how everybody else sees this as the potential game king, at least among the consoles.
Another interesting tid bit is that it will be based on the Win2k kernel... which is actually a good thing since Windows 2000 really is a great OS, despite it's inherently bad origins. (I only say bad because MS slacked WAY too much in the bugs/speed domain with Win9x, and to some extent, WinNT. But Windows 2000 is fast, stable as hell, and secure if you have a clue.)
So... whatta ya people think?
OS Gaming (Score:4)
Many Linux users use linux not only because its stable and fast, but because of their own OS/FS political agenda. Many will not accept any software that is not Open Source. This is a big problem for games since writing OS games is very difficult.
First of all, game development is not a service model industry. Its a manufacturing model. OS does not work anywhere near as well under the manufacturing model because its not as "itch" driven like a service model is.
Writing an OS game is difficult in most cases. Why? Because writing a trusted game client using OS is nearly impossible. (Remember what happened with Quake.) There is too much incentive to cheat and few ways to prevent it (since these ways would be included in the source too).
Untrusted clients mean that lots of simple work-arounds can't be used (like the quake lag issue). This also means that the server has to do a lot more work. Worldforge has untrusted OS clients, but they're having trouble running more than a couple clients and their server AI before the load kills it. More server load means more expensive servers. This means the game will not be able to stay free as in beer and even more people will be angry.
...all have windows anyway (Score:1)
will have to continue to do so indefinitely unless
they are willing to sacrifice themselves to the
greater good and go without.
I would personally feel deeply ashamed to have
Windows running in my home, though I realize that
is beside the point.
linuxgaming is a luxury - eg quake3 (Score:1)
Remembering Carmack saying "you will be able to crossupdate your linux-version to a windowsversion and visaversa in upcoming Pointreleases" I bought the Windowsversion. Sigh. He kept his word, so I am quite happy now.
(Still I am surprised that all big stores carry the linuxversion - but not one offeres the macversion
Maybe the placing of q3 at the index for youth-endangering material is partly responsible for that, because then you may not advertise or publicly sell q3 and that obviously holds back competition. And this is a deathpenalty for a small plattform like linux.
Halflife showed how easy it is to avoid the index: They changed the human actors from Humans to robots and robots blood is oil and therefore green and brown. Voila, here we sell the big numbers. How many 100.000 times was Halflife sold in Germany?
Btw, the inofficial patchfile to crossupdate your german version to an international version is around 25MB and was two weeks after Halflife available
Re:Embedded Linux Will Win (Score:2)
M-O-N-E-Y
When you have games, you have users. Not only that, they're users who want to spend money on both hardware and software! And that means companies who are going to spend money, AND, hopefully, contribute at least parts of their code to open source. I mean, I can totally understand if you aren't into games. I'm not as much into them as I used to be. But it's a good thing when Quake 3 works nearly as well in linux as it does in win. At the very least, it saves me a reboot. And I HATE reboots. Dammit.
Games are good-games are mainstream. If that linux-based console works out, then a lot of people are going to see it and say-'hey, linux can do graphics and sound really well!' In general, it's just a good thing. An OS which is getting new games is generally a pretty healthy (commerce-wise) OS. It seems to me that it's part of the big picture.
Linux / Windows (Score:1)
As the article does state, most game company rightly assume that many Linux owners have a guilty little 95/98 partition which they boot into to play games.
With the advent of people like Loki porting games to Linux (and selling them at full price), we now have to make a choice as to which platform to buy, and I (and I'm sure many others like me) have a sneeking suspicion that the Windows stuff will perform better with most graphics hardware
I would love to see how Q3A will run on my XFree4.0 / nVidia drivers machine, but I don't want to have to fork out another £30 to find out
If Linux wants to establish itself as a serious games platform then it needs to use the same model as it has done on the server platform - free, open source code that everyone can play with
This was the model used with Doom / Quake - buy the Windows version and then get the Linux code at no cost - so no risk if you can't get it to work (or it sucks)
The user gains the ability to experiment with the Linux version, and the game company sells a copy of the game!
Re:One way to help - Erase Windows forever! (Score:2)
I also don't see how this helps get more games ported over. I still prefer linux games (assuming they work as well as the windows versions), so if they are available I buy them. It's these sales figures that get games ported, not
I think the major obstacle to linux games is the absence of a standard media api. Windows has directx which makes game programming extremely easy in that environment. We need a standard like this, and if we could get a dx workalike in place that would be even better.
-kms1
It worked! It worked! (Score:1)
Now it looks like they're not only developing on Linux, but they're releasing Linux versions concurrently with Win versions.
Who says harassment doesn't pay off?
Re:is there a market? (Score:1)
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
Are you joking?
1) You're asking people to ask a question they know the answer to. So you're gonna send an army of zealots to insult the intelligence of retail clerks
2) You'll get 1 of the following responses
a) that version DOES run on Linux
b) no
c) what's linux
If you want to show support, then buy what few Linux games there are. Money talks.
Re: Squeak :) (Score:2)
And again, it's cute
VVisions and Terminus (Score:1)
Using a cool move like the distribution for Terminus [vvisions.com] under win, mac, and linux in the same box, you get twice the effect... Linux publicity and cross-platform gaming publicity.
Very bold. And a great game too.
Linux wouldnt fair as good as Windows on Gaming (Score:2)
But the Question here is whether Linux want to be in that space. Does Linux want to be in the desktop space ? Is the desktop market going to boom ? Or should Linux look at making it big in the Server market, providing better reliability and a five 9 uptime and the best security. I am sure none of the M$ OS till now are capable of providing it. Linux never depended on its market share, rather it spread by the word of mouth and its raw power. Windows sadly remains the choice of people who want an easy desktop environment running many other powerful Windows utilities and commercial software.
I was there at the GDC, and apart from Loki, I couldnt even see anyone else backing Linux there. More over, Quake3 ran with average frame rates..which might not interest a hard core gamer. For him, Windows98 with Direct3d And OpenGL already caters to all his requirements in gaming and he is happy with that and he would rather not be disturbed by the entry of another OS player.
But however, Linux Console may be exciting if they can afford to bring out a console in the 200$ range, and I am sure there would be a lot of people willing to throw out their PCs if it comes out any sooner.
Till then I would be happy with my Windows98 which crashes twice a day and let me play all my games while my Rhat Linux machine sits next to it and gleams with pride.
Make a Linux-Only Game (Score:1)
E3, Games, Etc. (Score:2)
How much/long should I pay a "Linux Tax" for a gam (Score:4)
I've heard the argument that we might have to pay a bit to bootstrap the Linux gaming market. But somehow I don't think Linux gaming is going to be bootstrapped by a few fanatics paying an nX premium just to get Linux ports of old games.
We need the Linux game in the same box as the Windows game, on the same announce day. We need the Linux box on the registration card. Unfortunately, we can't do this on our own with mainstream games. The publishers have something to say about it.
But then again, ID Software built a distribution channel with the shareware release of Wolfenstein 3D, and moved themselves into the big leagues with Doom.
There are a bunch of home-grown Linux games out there. There are even Linux gaming sites. Maybe what we need are decent reviews and links. (Maybe we have them already, and I just need to look a bit harder.) Maybe we need to be prepared to port one of these games to Windows, so it can hit the mainstream, too. Supposedly we're all getting more net-savvy. Why can't we find a way to use the net to bootstrap our way into the retail stores.
On a related note, ID has been giving away the code a year or two later, but maintaining copyright on the artwork. This is reasonable considering that ESR's position that 95% of software work isn't making software for sale. But artwork shares many characteristics of software, except that the percentage-for-sale thing is probably reversed.
This is the kernel of the problems with the MPAA and RIAA. We don't know how to pay artists. Now it becomes a problem with Linux game development, as well.
What about Terminus? (Score:2)
Terminus will support Windows/Linux/MacOS out of the box, and it's scheduled to be released June 6, 2000. [vvisions.com]
Re:Customized Linux for Games (and John Carmack) (Score:1)
Wouldn't it be great if you could turn your computer into a console at the boot manager level? It could be a gaming virtual machine or something such that console chips could be designed to optimise it (and run it from ROM) but PCs could boot it as well. The problem is, we might end up with a web browsing operating system, as well. Now that consoles are creeping into PC space it's only a matter of time until there's an OS monopoly or robust standards.
As for the specific Linux distro, it'd be nice if I could take a 486 and set it up so that my 5-year-old brother (or grandmother, or whatever) could load emulators efficiently and easily -- all the games most people will ever need!
Why isn't Linux good for gaming? (Score:1)
Because it doesn't seem to be working with my Monster Sound MX300 sound card. In fact, I'd say that before Linux users try convincing other people to use it for games or producers to target Linux, they should make it usable for games. Now you may say, well, thats only one driver, it's not that big of a deal. But I say that it is a big deal. For me, its my sound card, but for others there's a good chance it could be something else. Oh, and btw, I don't really care what the reason is for it not being supported, as a consumer I just want it to work.
MS, for all its faults, spent a lot of its resources to either develop or "encourage" others to develop a good base of support for all of the popular hardware, including gaming specific hardware. MS also spent the time and money to develop the DirectX interface, making it easier for developers to actually write games for Windows.
In all operating systems, choices have to be made on what to prioritize. Linux chooses security and stability, perfect for the corporation / individual that actually needs to get work done. On the other hand, Win98 may not be the most stable or secure OS ever designed, but what it lacks in security and stability it makes up for (at least as far as consumer gaming is concerned) with ease of use and full access to the computer's resources plus unsurpassed support for the optional hardware in the PC architecture as I mentioned earlier. This is despite all the bugs that are still around in windows, which is sad for the other operating systems.
Let's suppose this happen ... (Score:1)
Also, it would be easier than porting a Windows game on Linux. You don't need a multi-user or multi-process OS to play a game. Stability is not a big issue, too.
Other E3 Insights. (Score:2)
Once again, good ol' Los Angeles has played Mecca to thousands of folcking gamers and game developers as E3 descended upon us all once again this past weekend. While the show was devoid of anything big to really write home about, there were a few gems in the crop, and some definite winners and losers. Not as much free stuff given out this year, either, which was a total letdown. But if you aren't going to read any farther into my review, here's how the next year is going to shape up for the major competitors, based on the titles they were showing off:
PSX 2
PC
Dreamcast/PSX
Nintendo 64/Game Boy
The 2-4 positions are remarkably closely packed. Pretty much, if you have any of the top 4 platforms, you'll have something to be happy about in the near future. As far as the Nintendo 64 users, unless you really like Pokemon, life sucks for you. There's a new Zelda game, but it's nowhere near as groundbreaking as the first one was...although there looks to be a different cast of characters.
Here's an in-depth breakdown of the performers, in order of impressiveness:
PSX2
The show stealer. Not because of what was at their booth, either. The most impressive PSX2 games were nowhere to be found in Sony's area, you had to go straight to the developers to get a look at these. By far and away, if you ask anyone what game looks the best at E3, the answer you'll get from almost all of them will be Metal Gear Solid 2. I didn't like the first game, but the second one is just...breathtaking. It picks up where the first one left off, you as Solid Snake. Revolver Ocelot and Liquid Snake make appearances as well, but I don't know much more about it, and the horribly translated product guide is no help either. The game was shown via a huge display screen, and what was most impressive was that they showed no CG...only gameplay...and you couldn't tell. Also making jaws drop at the Konami booth was a mech-combat game called "Zone of the Enders" which has the artist from Gundam X onboard. If you're trying to imagine this game, think Macross in CG. That's what this game looked like fromthe screens shown. I'm unsure as to what was gameplay, and what was CG...but it blew me away. In the strategy realm, KOEI's Kessen looked absolutely amazing. I'm a big fan of strategy games, and this is what I imagine I'd make my ultimate game like. They had playable versions of this at the KOEI booth, but I found it all too late into the last day of the show. Also from KOEI, Dynasty Warriors 2 is equaly impressive. Part strategy, mostly real-time combat, it's you in the midst of a huge army brawl. I was watching one gamer play, and he was spinning with a yari (long spear) in the midst of 15-20 enemies. An epic battle game. I can hardly wait. Squaresoft was not to be outdone either. They showed off a title called, "The Bouncer" outside the booth through a series of CG only screens, and inside the theater were some of the battle sequences. Very cool. Armored Core for the PSX2 also looked very sweet if you're into giant robot games, which, as it turns out, I am. GT2000 looked nice, as did Tekken Tag Team Tournament, but if you're like me, you're starting to grow weary of these titles and their various incarnations. The PSX2 definitely had more to show off at E3 than anyone else did. It uses the same basic controller as the original PS, so if you've adapted, you won't have any need to convert over to some retarded carpal tunnel syndrome inducing analog/digital controller. All in all, this is the console to have, come December of this year.
PC
There weren't a lot of "WHOA!" titles for the PC, but there were a lot of definite purchases. Leading the list is Warcraft 3 from Blizzard. They're going less on the resource management side of things, and more on the beating people down side. I'm looking forward to this, especially since one of my old co-workers is now working there. =) On the other hand, Diablo 2, despite all its hype looks a whole lot like Diablo 1. Sure, you've got more towns...but does that mean more gameplay? We'll find out. X-Com is back in a big way at this year's E3. They were showing off a new first-person shooter/strategy game. Apparently, your teammates will have different skills, so you'll need to keep them alive for optimal mission results. Star Trek was all over the convention floor. It looks like there will be something like 4 new Star Trek games. ST: Away Team, Bridge Commander, Elite Force, and one I forgot. Away Team is a squad combat game in the Fallout/X-Com vein. Elite Force is a first person shooter that has you taking down the Borg first person style, and Bridge Commander was a space shooter. Sadly, for me, no showing of Team Fortress 2. I was really excited about TF2 from last E3, but no love from the guys this year. Squaresoft also showed off a PC preview in their theater, via some really lame live action skit involving 3 actors. Apparently FFXI will be online, and they envision you being able to play from home, in an arcade, and use your saves to jump in and form parties. Could be cool, could be utterly lame...remains to be seen. Tribes 2 looked nice, nothing strikingly new, but the graphics looked pimpin'. I might have been able to tell you what gameplay was like, but the jerk hogging the machine wouldn't leave, and he had no game, either, so I'll never know. Maybe if he'd stayed alive more than 10 seconds...before having to respawn. Like I said, nothing really super cool, but enough to make you glad you tripped out your PC.
Dreamcast
This is 3rd only because of alphabetical order. Sega did a lot to make sure you were aware of their games. They had a huge stage that would be occupied with rollerbladers, dancers, and one really loud and annoying MC. It was good they grabbed your attention with live people though, because the games they were hyping were utterly lame. Space Channel 5 (Which had dancers in skirts on 30 foot raised platforms...directly above the crowd...you do the math.) is a game that is basically a rip-off of Bust-A-Move. You take control of ULaLa and you have to execute a sequence of dance moves you're given through audio cues. Lame. Jet Set Radio was the other game they were trying to hype via the stage, and that one was abysmal, too. The premise: You're part of a blading, tagging crew. You have to escape from The Man. (No, you're not "Working Undercover" for him, either.) Some of the DC games did look nice, though. ESPN made a strong showing to save Sega from itself. They're making a bunch of new sports games based on their TV shows. Expect to see NBA 2night, and crew sometime soon. Virtua Tennis looked good, too, which is great because there haven't been any cool tennis games ANYWHERE for far too long. The highlight of the Sega booth for me was "Samba De Amigo". It's the latest in a long line of games designed to make you pay money for humiliating yourself. The premise for your self-effacing hinges upon maracas this time. You've got to shake your individual maracas at any of 3 different heights depending on the cues given to you. At random times in the song you will be prompted to POSE! and you have to do the pose on the screen. Highly amusing, and the chicks dig it. Capcom's "Onimusha" looked kinda nifty, although I'm sure it's not my thing. A lot of Sega RPGs were showcasing these great looking FMVs of their games, and then you'd get around to see gameplay and your heart would sink. Sigh...some people never learn.
Playstation
The original PS holds ground with the DC. Good thing there's no home-court advantage at E3, eh? It had its share of lame games, either wrestling or UFC related, or just utterly inexplicable, like Super Magnetic Neo. Games like that make a gamer cry. Squaresoft, as usual, was the Sony flagship, which was showing off Chrono Chross and Parasite Eve 2, both of which are necessary additions to any gamers libraries. They showed a glimpse off FF9 in the theater which looks as if the Square guys have pretty much maxed out how impressive the PS gets. Vagrant Story, Threads of Fate, and Legend of Mana were there too. Good, but not great. For some reason, not too many games on the PS stood out my mind...maybe it's because they blurred with all of the PSX2 games. But just about as much on the PS impressed me as stuff on the Dreamcast impressed me, which is to say, nothing jaw-dropping, but plenty to keep my drive spinning. In addition, most of the Sony stuff was focused on promoting the PS2, so no big stage for the PS like the DC got.
Nintendo
Bringing up the rear in a BIG way is the N64. Solidly establishing the bottom of the barrel, they didn't even have anything about the Dolphin, apparently feeling smug enough to trot out Pokemon Vs. Your Mom, or whatever the heck the next iteration of the game is. Apparently, their new big thing is having you talk to your Pokemon. Their next Pokemon non-game has you telling your Pikachu what to do via a microphone connected to your controller. The only good thing about the Nintendo booth was that they gave me a "Cool Porygon" card that I promptly put up on ebay to sell! It's at $20 right now! The Nintendo people said that they weren't showing much, but it was quality. Hmm...is that why the Turok 3 station was entirely empty? Oh yeah, there's a new Zelda game. Woo. It looks nearly entirely the same as the last game. There's nothing on the N64 at this E3 that you couldn't take back in time 2 years and impress people. Kirby 64, Paper Mario, sure they'll sell, N64 owners need something to play, but there's nothing good out there. If you're looking to auction off your N64...wait until just after they announce the new Zelda will go on sale, then try and find a sucker. Maybe they'll make a Slashdot themed, "Hot Grits" game.
Re:Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:1)
I see the same thing with Linux,
Oh bullshit. I'm tired of this ... just because a few (and it is a few) dickheads get upset over small things does not mean all, or even most, Linux users are zealots.
All this "zealot" business is self-fulfilling ... you bang on about it until lots of people start to believe it. Shut up
Attracting Gamers to the Linux Platform (Score:1)
Re:Support By Peers/Linux Community/Quake3 (Score:1)
Re:Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:1)
Re:TANSTAAFL (Score:1)
Most of the successful Open Source projects have had a core group who knew what they wanted to do and made up the inital planning/developement team. This could work for creating a game, it is the process of creating an 'Application' KOffice. I haven't used it so I don't know how omplete it is yet, but once the framework is in place people will help fill it in. THAT is the essential problem with Open Sourcing games. With a game, either its a small enough game that you write it all as one application (like tetris for instance) or else it helps to develope an engine, and then you need people to come up with the plot/graphics and how the engine will govern game dynamics.
Now, there is an effort to create an Open Source 3D Game Engine, and that may work, and people may create games, but since a large part of the effort is the creative side, then there will always be a market for games, just as there will always be a market for books. Both may have some 'Open Source' versions, but people will always be willing to pay for a quality product (like a painting).
(sorry for the rambling I'm a bit tired)
Embedded Linux Will Win (Score:2)
Plus, it will totally rock to get a $200 gaming machine / Quake V box that plugs into a TV.
-Waldo
Just give me Half Life (Score:1)
I have just started a software company and have decided to base it on Linux. The only game I would like to see is Half Life, bundled with Counterstrike. For now though, I'll be using a separate Windows box "to test output under IE5" ;-)
Oh, C&C and Red Alert would be nice. I think a few killer games would keep most of us modest gamers happy.
Phillip.
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:1)
Why do you have to compile your kernel? In the several years
I've used Linux, I've only done this three times, and only because
I'm a technogeek. Most people will just buy an upgraded
distribution for $20 if they really need the latest.
"b) KDE and Gnome are ugly much of the time."
I just don't agree. I use KDE, and feel that both it and Gnome
are better-looking than Windows. Windows users in my office
seem to think my desktop looks pretty nice. Actually, all you
really need is a nice background, which works for any GUI.
"e) Developing for multiple platforms at the same time is overhead."
You're assuming that development costs are the same for
all platforms. I believe Linux is cheaper to develop for, not
only because the tools are free, but because Linux itself is
a better platform. Where I work, we have a large body of
Java code. My Linux machine has no problem compiling all of
in within 60 seconds; but the WinNT machines, with the same
hardware, take 20 minutes. They also crash occasionally,
but mine never does. So developing under Linux, then
porting to Windows, may actually save time over developing
on Windows.
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
Why do you laugh? When people spend more money on console games, they'll spend less on computer games. Granted, they may not kill the computer game market entirely, but they'll put a dent in it, just like the other the things you list.
I know that if I feel like buying a game, I buy one for my Dreamcast, not my computer. Incidentally, this is the same reason I'm not really affected by the lack of Linux games.
The bus came by and I got on
That's when it all began
There was cowboy Neal
At the wheel
Of a bus to never-ever land
Game Developers are missing a *vital* point ... (Score:2)
In other words, Game Developers don't have to be tied to the limitations of Windows any more. They can make their *OWN* standard Linux distro that is fully tuned to their specifications, performs the way they want to, and has only those features that they need to make their game run as *BEST* as possible.
This was one of the reasons that DOS lasted so long as a games platform - because it gave most developers a direct wire straight to the hardware, which was a very significant requirement for many game companies.
And now, with bootable CD-ROM drives more and more prevalent (wasn't always this way, you know...) there's functionally nothing stopping the average Game Developer Corp from making a one-CD game that boots on the PC, bypassing Windows entirely, and which gets the utmost best performance possible from the target hardware.
I foresee a day when it won't matter what operating system you've got *installed* on your PC - as a user, you shouldn't *HAVE* to worry about this (and Microsoft know this, as do Sega, Sony, and Nintendo) - you just put your CD in the PC, kick back, wait for it to boot and away it goes... just like consoles have been able to do for years.
Sure, there are some issues such as driver support, yeah. But these are being taken care of, and the advantages to the Developer for being able to *fully* control the operating system underlying their game code far outweigh the disadvantages, imho.
(On a side note, I seem to recall there being an effort at creating a "game only" Linux distribution that can be burned to CD-ROM, and which includes all the latest and greatest drivers for video cards... but I don't remember the URL.)
Any other insight? (Score:1)
Re:is there a market? (Score:2)
Not ready for prime time (Score:5)
1. The LINUX desktop market is still fairly small. It may have overtaken SCO, FreeBSD, and maybe even MacOS (I haven't seen the numbers lately), but we are still talking about a platform with no more than about a tenth of the number of Micros~1 machines out there.
2. It is well known that many LINUX users (not all) dual boot their systems, or have a separate Micros~1 box set up for games. I have to count myself among this number... In addition to my various LINUX and MacOS systems, I a tricked-out Micron in the den, with Win95 on it, strictly for use as a game console.
3. Porting games after the development phase is over is usually cheaper than multi-platform development. This may be counter-intuitive, but when you consider that over the time-span of a game's development from concept to release, there are going to be several OS patches and new drivers released. Keeping up with the changes on more than one platform means juggling more balls than most game companies want to do.
4. Most game companies (not all) are small mom-and-pop organizations. They often extend themselves to the limit just to get a release out the door for one platform. The only way they can afford to do the ports is to wait for the profits from the initial release to roll in.
A good example of this is Starship Titanic. You will never meet a bigger Mac zealot than Douglas Adams, but when developing the game it became obvious that a MacOS-first or simultanious release was beyond the resources available to him. Titanic was released as a windows-only game (even though D.A. did not even own a PC to run his own game on!), and was ported to the Mac using money from the sales of the Windows product.
Bottom line: Game developers will care about LINUX if and when they must write for LINUX to be profitable.
For now, the best hope for Tux fans is the development of open-source projects like WorldForge.
Who knows? Maybe some GPL game, designed by some free-beer advocate, might come along and prove to be the killer app that gets all hard-core gamers to put a permanent LINUX partition on their PC's. Until then, get used to sounding like Rodney Dangerfield when the subject of games comes up.
games, end lusers and the desktop market (Score:2)
The support and corporate desire to make more games for Linux will only come after we can demostrate a large enough installed desktop/home base. Until then, why the hell should a corporation throw money away by supporting such a small user base. Loki has the advantage since they are basically (with a few exceptions) the only game in town. It reminds me of MacSoft back in the day in the times of Macintosh ports.
The only thing I would say in warning is that if the linux community really wants the desktop market we better be ready for the ramifications in terms of clueless end lusers.
There will be plenty of wonderful literate people that will take right away to the OS and the unix-like principles behind it. However, there will always be the folks who don't read the readme files or the man pages and ask silly things at times they should not. We should be ready. If you flame those folks the way people rip into newbies in some corners of the linux/unix world then the desktop is a prize we will never attain.
That would be a shame in a way but sometimes it is nice to be different. Linux was designed originally for geeks by geeks. I am not sure it will be the same when it is designed for geeks for moms wanting to get online and check email.
I hope I am wrong.
Killer App (Score:2)
Anyone remember back when Sega and Nintendo were fighting for console dominance? Each company tried to have exclusive games that other companies couldn't have.
The trouble is, currently, "the Linux lag." Until a game that everybody wants comes out for Linux first (or better still Linux only) it destroys Linux sales. Why? Because almost everyone already has Windows and very few people are willing to wait for games to come out for Linux when they may not come out at all.
The first killer app Linux game will probably be Free Software, and will hopefully be something new and unique. Something that will make gamers say, "I've got to have that" and something that is so big even marketeers have to take notice.
The other solution Linux developers can come up with is a better DirectX than DirectX which will allow games written for it to run equally well under Windows or Linux with no re-coding. (Basically some kind of cross platform gaming Virtual Machine).
Re:i'm not convinced. (Score:2)
Re:Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:2)
Games, on the other hand, are a different matter. I will happily spend money on closed source (All Rights Reserved) software. In fact I buy lots of games. I play them on Windows if I must, N64, Playstation, whatever. I don't see what being a penguinista like myself has to do with games! No one flames Loki for releasing close source games... so your examples make no sense.
Re:Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:2)
This may seem harsh, but that was pretentious, overblown, melodramatic psycho-babble.
I disagree. Look at the Mac -- How much do you think their zealotry has held them back? Many people don't look at Macs simply because they don't want to be part of the "secret society" and look like a Mac wacko.
Most people want to be part of the mainstream. They don't want to have to explain why they made the "weird choice".
You seem to think the media has created this perception that the Linux community is made up of wacko zealots. I've got news for you... the "media" didn't get together conspiratorially and decide to make Linux weird. It's all the zealots flooding their e-mail boxes with "why don't you cover Linux more? Are you paid off by Micro$soft??? HAR HAR HAR I'M SO L33T!!!!"
You can put your head in the sand and complain about everyone else "making them more important than they really are", but don't be surprised when the same thing happens that happened to Mac, Amiga and OS/2. "Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
--
Not true (Score:2)
I don't know how long you have been scoping out Linux/BSD, but the inroads that have been made in the last two years alone are simply astounding.
Myself I fit the "early adopter" profile. As such I started goofing with Linux five years ago. Back then doing an install was a monumental task. Now all you have to do is click the mouse a few times. Everthing from driver support to application support is moving at lightspeed. When I duel boot from MS to Linux the first thing I notice is the crystal clear KDE desktop.
When it comes to applications development the writing is on the wall. Companies like MS are running into the problem where their existing apps have all the bells and whistles that anyone could ask for. What motivates the consumer to buy a new version when there are no advantages? Obviosly you spend even more marketing dollars convincing an ever smaller pool of interrested consumers that they need to buy the upgrade. Add to this the trouble of managing bloated code for each new revision and you really have a task on your hands.
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
I've used Linux, I've only done this three times, and only because
I'm a technogeek. Most people will just buy an upgraded
distribution for $20 if they really need the latest.
"
It was only an example. Lots of hardware and software have complex installation and configuration procedures.
"I just don't agree. I use KDE, and feel that both it and Gnome
are better-looking than Windows. Windows users in my office
seem to think my desktop looks pretty nice. Actually, all you
really need is a nice background, which works for any GUI. "
They look ok. IMO, windows looks much more polished and is completely standardized. They can be made to look OK, but once you click a button you run into non standard garbage, configuration procedures that don't work, exposed advanced functionality that can potentially confuse, lack of understandable documentation, weird file heirarchies, etc
"You're assuming that development costs are the same for
all platforms"
I'm not assuming anything. Labor takes time and money. Therefore it is overhead. Give linux limited market and developing games for it is questionable at this time - just as it is for the Mac platform. The tools are pennies when compared to labor, support, modular/cross platform design, etc
Oh Linux Users, when will you learn? (Score:2)
The Linux community is certainly different than run of the mill PC users. You guys are trend-setters, not followers. In that light, why do you worry about which company will port what game to Linux? Why don't you start creating your own gaming companies? Take the initiative here. Why react when you can act forecefully? Look at all the money in the community now, billion dollar IPOs, all sorts of opportunities.
As an aside, I, as a BeOS user, would love to have some great games on Linux. Unfortunately, it's still too difficult an OS for me to use and configure, but I see people in your community trying to fix that, the former Apple team developing a user-friendly version of Linux is a great start. Now that's some initiative.
So, a simple two part plan. Build an easier version of linux. Then develop games for it. Create a demand for the game, and you create a demand for Linux. It can be done. Stop reacting and instead act.
Ummm... The Metal Gear Solid 2 Demo was a VIDEO. (Score:2)
Re:Too many consoles, so few ports (Score:3)
Game consoles are meant to be SIMPLE. Consumer buys console. Consumer buys game, puts CD in, and plays. Done.
PCs, on the other hand, are far from simple. You have to deal issues like: Is my CPU fast enough? Do I have enough RAM? Do I have enough hard drive space? Is my 3D Card fast enough? Is my sound card supported? Is my version of my operating system supported?
That's much too complicatd for consumers to deal with. Having an "open standard" and having multiple implementations of it isn't going to fly in this case; there's simply too much to gain in adding in your own proprietary extensions to differentiate your system from everyone else's. Afterall, why SHOULD the consumer choose me over my competitor, if we are both the same? It just doesn't make sense.
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:5)
The biggest challenge might be that distributors do know something about Linux: namely, that the most visible aspects of the community seem to be comprised of people who don't want to pay for closed-source software.
This is a potentially serious dilemma. There aren't any open source business models that allow for making money on software whose only value is the software itself--that is, you're not going to be selling subscriptions, service contracts, commercial OEM support, and the like.
Now, you might be saying "that's irrelevant--the games don't have to be open source." Well, theoretically, you're absolutely right. But are you going to devote significant resources to developing for a platform whose proponents are nearly always focused on free software? You may be more interested in the free speech part of it, but if your definition of "free speech" includes "you can't restrict my right to give the software you wrote away," the distinction is irrelevant to an accountant.
I'm sure people will think I'm being facetious or flippant, but I'm not. Right now, showing companies that you can make money doing Linux games means showing companies that Linux users are willing to pay for old-fashioned, closed source commercial software.
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
One easy trick is, next time you find yourself at a mall, stop in at EB or whatever you find, browse the games for a while, pick an expensive one that only runs on Windows, and carry it up to the counter and ask whether they have a Linux version of it.
If 10,000,000 of us did that once a month, word would certainly get back to the game makers, and some of them would probably be stirred to action.
--
Re:is there a market? (Score:2)
I've got Loki's Civ CTP, Q3 and HG2 now and I am eagerly awaiting SC3k.
Yes, unfortunatly I've got Windows on my PC, but HG2 may change that. It's looking to be more fun than the only reason I keep W98 around, Mech3.
AND it uses both processors! What a concept.
So, yes, I am part of the fabled "Linux Gamer" market.
Developing "Linux first" games would be crazy (Score:2)
It makes virtually no economic sense to target Linux with a game release for most companies. Development is not cheap, and you need to fish where the fish are - not where you want them to be. That means that you develop games for Windows and/or consoles first, then, later, you can either port the game to another platform yourself, or, easier still, license it to a porting company who will take on most of the risk. Both Linux and Macintosh have an ecosystem of companies that will port a game very nicely.
In the same vein, that's why there are no Open Source or Free games to speak of (I don't count the toys that come with every distro). All the huge, profitable games that will show up here are ports. When you license that game, you distribute it however the licensor wants. And they're not going to allow an Open Source version of their smash hit on Linux while keeping the Windows version closed. I'm happy with the gestures that companies like Id and Bungie have taken - opening up their older engines for people looking to do cool stuff. Gaming is sufficiently cutthroat that the Open Source model just breaks down entirely there.
Linux's desktop penetration will be insignificant until business apps are running there. It's got a long way to go yet before the home user would even be able to use it, let alone buy games for Linux. We get a little cocky here sometimes because slashdot's such a big community. The Real World is a lot bigger - and if three times the percentage of
- -Josh Turiel
Re:Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:3)
Oh bullshit. I'm tired of this ... just because a few (and it is a few) dickheads get upset over small things does not mean all, or even most, Linux users are zealots. ... All this "zealot" business is self-fulfilling ... you bang on about it until lots of people start to believe it. Shut up
To quote the original poster of this thread: "everybody has noticed this except you"
Until you admit the truth that this is a problem, you're destined to suffer the same fates. No, not everyone is a zealot. But the point is that there is a critical mass of zealotry that turns off a lot of people.
--
Re:Customized Linux for Games (and John Carmack) (Score:2)
However, because most gamers are quick-fix "short attention span" computer users...
I would tend to disagree. Folks who play games on PCs tend to be those who do the most performance tweaking of anyone. This is what is driving the market for packaged video cards from 3DFX and nVidia--the ability to play games better. If gamers weren't willing to rip into their PCs and install a different card, those companies would only be selling to OEMs.
This segment of people run Windows because (and only because) there are more games that they want to play on that platform, and are willing to put up with the stability and other issues for that reason. I used to sell computers in a past life (c 1995), and remember directing folks to the Sony Playstation for stability reasons (these were pure gameplayers that obviously were in no shape to handle DOS-mode configuration or graphic/sound nuances). DOS-mode config has largely gone away, but other technological issues have popped up in its place (OpenGL v. Glide v. DirectX, network config, etc.).
For not much more knowhow than that which is needed to get a modern 3D networked game running on a general-purpose PC, you could have a real OS, too. If the games are there, the gamers will flock. Period. "Short attention span" computer users play solitare or have a console system.
Re:i'm not convinced. (Score:2)
Except that this was not a troll, it's the truth.
If you want to refute his point, namely that the non-server market is not nearly large enough to matter, go ahead. Until then, disagreement != troll.
--
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
As usual, it's free as in speech not free as in beer. Just as I don't think it is right for companies to violate the GPL, I don't think it is right to violate the existing standard copyright laws. I do, however, think it is right to create free alternatives to closed software.
I do, however, BUY many games. The last game I bought was Tachyon: beyond the Fringe just a few weeks ago. Please don't stereotype us penguinistas. And especially don't use those stereotypes as a sole justification to bypass free software platforms.
Re:consumers are stupid (Score:3)
| that makes the lay people stay away.
| (lay people == the majority of console game
| players)
Is this because of stupidity, though, or the fact that it can be a royal pain in the ass to play games on a PC, Windows OR Linux?
Call me lazy, but it's nice to pop a CD or cartridge ito a console, turn it on, pick up a controller, and just play the game - on the big screen TV with the surround sound system in the living room.
However, if some interesting (read, not YAFPS) games come out for Linux, I'll probably buy them. The heck with the Windows versions - I don't even have a system that boots Windows at home anymore.
The big problem (Score:2)
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
Re:How much/long should I pay a "Linux Tax" for a (Score:2)
I can think of a somewhat practical example. Has anyone ever heard of or played the game worms? If that came out first for linux, and built up steam, it would turn out great for the linux community and commercially. They could waste time doing a windows port if they felt like it, but the point is some people would go, "hey, another reason to switch to linux" and would install it just to play.
Other companies would notice this and say, "a killer game for linux, without a windows port....uh, i didn't know linux could serve as a gaming platform" (what do you think is powering PS2? I may be wrong, but last I heard, it was embedded linux. Also i head that the development workstations are also running linux.
economies of scale (Score:2)
But the other way is less certain
It still looks to me like dual- or multi-platform devmt. is longer term more likely to help free software than developing only for free OSes. Remove the reason to
timothy
platform != architecture (Score:2)
Of course, the obvious answer is to ship a CD with your game's source on it and let the user compile it on whatever system they're running, because you ifdef'd in all the right places AND released it under a free software license, right?
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:3)
I haven't used SDL but I know a lot of people are using it to make games including Loki which is actually producing full commercial games. From what I understand, it is fairly low level and is pretty good for porting existing games from Windows to Linux.
For a while I have been programming on an API called ClanLib [clanlib.org]. It is higher level than SDL and is more like a Game SDK. I like the fact that as long as you go through ClanLib (and/or any other cross platform system calls) you can recompile the same program and it will run on top of Direct[Draw,Input,Sound,etc.] in Windows, or several possible targets on Linux (including X of course).
Re:Linux Games (Score:3)
I know many Linux users are willing to boycott productivity tools like MS Office, but they're afraid to do the same thing for games. Step up to the plate, boys!
Re:Ummm... The Metal Gear Solid 2 Demo was a VIDEO (Score:2)
In that case, I've got an integrated browser/operating system I want to sell you...
Re:Make a Linux-Only Game (Score:2)
Now you can say, and I agree, that this entails buying another box to run the game. BUT, PC penetration was not that wodespread. This was in an era when many homes bought their first computer.
Also, If Linux got a killer-game, a Myst for 2001, it would entail the installation of a too-difficult-to-install os, the setting up of partitions, etc that Joe user does not want to deal with.
Tom
Must we buy games we won't play? (Score:3)
I don't really like FPSs. I don't really like sims. What's left?
Should I buy these games anyway, knowing I'm not going to play them? That could get very expensive very quickly, and I have other things to spend my money on.
Now, if Monkey Island or Wing Commander came out for Linux, for instance, I'd buy in a second.
Re:Embedded Linux Will Win (Score:2)
>a console is for users to beable to pop in the game and hit the on
>button? I am not saying that Linux shouldn't be ran on a console, I
>just don't think running a linux console system is going to advance
>linux any. -eof
I don't see how gaming is going to benefit Linux either. Let's be honest here. There is a growing lack of interest in the PC as a gaming platforming. PC games are becoming too expensive in both terms of both software and hardware resources as well as cost. Take a look at some of the PC games that are out now. 3-4 years ago people would've thought you were crazy if you told them that you're going to need a 400-500mhz machine and 300-400 megs of hardrive space to install and play a freaking game and things are just going to get worse. Hell with it. I'm telling everyone I know to get either a Sony or Sega system if they want to play games.
Re:Make a Linux-Only Game (Score:2)
It'll never happen (at least, not until Linux has much more marketshare than it does now.) Even if every single Linux gamer bought the game, it still wouldn't beat the sales of even a mediocre-selling game for both Linux and Windows.
--
Closed source games? Not a problem (Score:5)
At the same time, a programmer outside the game industry wouldn't gain much from having the source code, specs and APIs to a game - he doesn't lose much from giving away his freedom to freely inspect and modify the code. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that it's competition between game companies in the quest for speed and features which makes it necessary for most of them to keep their source code closed; that's why it was reasonable for iD Software to release the Doom source code, ages after the game's original release.
As Stallman himself said when he came to Rio, copyright remains necessary, at least in some weaker form, for certain kinds of immaterial goods, in order to help ensure the producers' income and thus at least enable them to recover the money they spent on the work. He also pointed out that this kind of copyright should be recognised as a social contract, not as a tacitly accepting the nature of these goods as "intellectual property".
Stallman used movies as an example of immaterial goods which still need to be covered under copyright law, but I think that the same applies to computer games, since they're not "utilitarian" goods (I think that's the term he used; evidently, IANAL), but entertainment goods.
Like it's happening to music right now with Napster/MP3s/etc, things may eventually come to a point where the public no longer finds it reasonable to trade away all their freedom to copy computer games (or full-length movies, for that matter) in order to keep the game industry alive and thus ensure their continued production. When this happens, the social contract implied by copyright law will need to be changed again. Even then, though, the user's freedom to inspect and modify a game's source code will remain unessential enough for most users that "closed source games" will remain a reasonable trade, and thus game companies will remain protected from unfair competition.
In short: I don't feel that proprietary computer games are a problem, even in a platform made up mostly of free software, and even in a world where games are traded freely amongst users on the Internet. That is, as long as the game companies keep in mind what copyright law is really about, and are willing to be reasonable. Luckily, game companies seem to be different from, say, the big music labels and big movie studios which make up the RIAA and the MPAA, respectively, so I think this may actually be feasible.
Yeah, that pretty much sums up what I had to say. Flame away!
Linux Games (Score:4)
--
Let's start a vendor education program (Score:5)
We really need to get a corporate education program going. Somewhere that can help create demos for these shows as well as providing people access to information that they can present to their bosses. Maybe if we could show these companies that you can make money doing Linux games, we'd get more support.
kwsNI
Game blender (Score:4)
It is not I repeat not available for download now. It will be released in the end of june. You can now download blender 1.75 wich is not game blender. Game blender is blendder version 2.0. The current blender is freware with added bonus if you buy it. Game blender will contain everything that blender 1.75 does plus tools for making your own games without the nead for programing(its possible to program in python). And Game blender will be compleately free.
Customized Linux for Games (and John Carmack) (Score:3)
Linux offers a unique opportunity to reprogram (for the power user) and optimize for multimedia and gaming performance. Should someone undertake the considerable task of programming a "gaming version" of Linux, we could see an increase in industry attention.
However, I think most people will agree that Linux's main detractor from public consumption is its lack of idiot-proof installation. Although it certainly isn't shy on tech support.
Games like Quake3 and Unreal Tournament have demonstrated that Linux can be used for gaming. However, because most gamers are quick-fix "short attention span" computer users, they don't have the time nor the inclination to learn Linux to the degree that they should. (Please note, I fit myself into that category, it's not intended as flame bait).
I also, perhaps naively, consider it a promising sign that gaming platforms (such as Playstation1 and 2) are using Linux-esque Kernels and OSs for their development work.
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
Huh? Games? (Score:3)
But then, these companies he talks about..Id? Did they port NetHack to Windows or something? And those Epic people..what'd they ever do? (looks at computer) No NetHack derivatives. Can't be that important.
-- Daniel, who has heard rumors that there are games besides NetHack and refuses to believe them.
(it's funny. Laugh)
Don't Forget About Terminus (Score:2)
Terminus is a persistent universe RPG, in space. It is a 3D simulation set in our Solar System, two hundred years in the future. It is scheduled for release on 6 June 2000, for Windows, Macintosh, and Linux.
For more on Terminus, check out Station Terminus [gamestats.com].
There's an awesome preview at The Adrenaline Vault [avault.com].
Here's another at Linux.com [linux.com].
Lastly is the website of Vicarious Visions [vvisions.com], the developer of Terminus.
Terminus was at the E3 (or, at least, was supposed to be) - I don't know why the writer of this article didn't see it / didn't mention it.
It hasn't gotten a whole lot of press, but it's been mentioned in quite a few game mags out there. I, for one, am going to buy this game the day it comes out - both to support games on Linux, and because it looks like a lot of fun.
-lw
Every bit helps. Do your bit. (Score:3)
SoftwareETC, I have better luck with. I bought QuakeIII there, and although they have Myth, I didn't get it (I barely played CivCTP, I'm just not a fan of that type game). These days when I ask for HGII the people there can at least locate it in the computer (last checked 5/14, they told me 5/16. I'll have to go back.)
My point is that you can spread the word lots of ways. One is by getting out and talking about Linux and the fact that Hello, I am a potential buyer who will spend money in your store if you have Linux stuff. Sure, these days maybe 9 times out of 10 you'll walk out empty handed...but that doesn't mean you've accomplished nothing. If you do it enough times, and you're not the only one doing it, then some smart manager is going to see Linux scroll by his next "upcoming games" newsletter and think "Hmmm, maybe I should try this out and see if it sells..." and before you know it, we've got another store on our side.
And it's not just about games. Any chance you get, use it. Whenever I'm down BestBuy or CompUSA I always wander through the Linux section to see if there are any potential buyers that I might strike up a conversation with. When my cable company asked me if I wanted internet access, I asked if they supported Linux. When the operator said "What's linux?" I gave her a 15minute rundown of what it was and why it was good. Last week at the car dealer, when speaking of replacing my cd player, I got into a discussion of MP3 players, which got the girl behind the desk asking if I knew how to fix her computer after a bungled Win98 upgrade, which in turn led to me explaining to her about Linux. Will any of these people run out and buy Linux? Likely not. But now they've heard about it once more. And they are more likely to recognize it when they see it in a magazine or on a tv news story. And after they've done that a few times, maybe they'll convert.
Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:5)
The bottom line is that most people don't obsess about operating systems. Windows lets people run Word, Excel, use popular email managers, edutainment software, and lots of games. Right now the Linux desktop market consists mostly of people who *do* obsess about operating systems and people with other agendas (e.g. all software should be free; Bill Gates is a fag). This is not generally not a good target market for games.
The other thing, something that I wish weren't true, is that there's a definite attitude among Linux zealots. I don't mean that in a trolling sorta way, just in a "everybody has noticed this except you" way. The Macintosh market is similar in some ways, though not as extreme. If you don't do a Mac port, you get flamed for liking "Windoze." If you do a Mac port, you get flamed for bringing "peecee" software over to a superior machine. From following Slashdot, I can see that companies showing an interest in Linux development walk a thin line. Metrowerks gets slammed for claiming "RedHat only," though most distributions are the same internally. Borland gets trashed with a headline on Slashdot because someone misinterpreted the license agreement. People get annoyed simply because Borland is *giving away* a full fledged C++ compiler and they aren't including the source. There are twisted rants about how Emacs is better than Word and The Gimp smokes Photoshop, which are just plain uninformed. Nobody wants to get involved in such silliness.
Re:Let's start a vendor education program (Score:2)
Try the DOOM model on for size. There are bunches of open source DOOM engines avalible, but in order to use the official WADs you have to buy them from ID software.
This type of model makes almost everyone happy.
Re:Bad vibes to the left of me... (Score:5)
The more extreme the attitudes of the userbase become, the less likely commercial companies are going to be willing to risk their intellectual capital investment by supporting Linux.
I was an Amiga zealot for many years, and I think the current Linux base is very similar at least in terms of demographics, definately in terms of computing skill.
We griped endlessly about how no company would support us, but when they did release something then we'd gripe about how it was too expensive, or whatever. What's worse is that piracy was rampant amongst the Amiga users.
I see the same thing with Linux, it's a bit different in that Linux users have now de-evolved to a point where they think the world owes them free software. It's not even piracy any more, it's self-justified because corporations are evil. At least Amiga users were willing to admit the truth, even if we were hypocrites about it.
It really is quite sickening, and I can guarantee you that this attitude will kill Linux, just as it killed the Amiga.
Perhaps not kill since it is not dependent on the profitability of a company, but Linux will never gain the widespread support that even the Macintosh enjoys, much less Windows.
Re:What about Terminus? (Score:2)
I want black & white too.
(I promise i wont play it too much until after my exams)
TANSTAAFL (Score:4)
'Applications' like Office or Quake3 are developed in a very non-hacker way. Anyone who's ever put out a large shrinkwrapped product knows that it's important to have a power structure for decision making. Graphics people need to interact with designers and programmers and technical writers. A game has to have a release date, and there's a finite limit on how long development can take. Games are designed to max out hardware, so Moore's law makes them obsolete within a year.
Developing the kernel is very different. The only real users of the kernel are more hackers--the ones who write programs which run on the kernel--so we don't need marketing, packaging, phone support, or formal documentation. And kernel development time is literally infinite. There are version releases, but there's no need to "get it out the door." The kernel is designed to be as minimal as possible, hardware-wise. Therefore the kernel is much less affected by Moore's law.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Accept the fact that there is some software you MUST PAY FOR. And go pay for it!
i'm not convinced. (Score:4)
It's difficult to convince people of something when that something isn't true.
consumers are stupid (Score:2)
(lay people == the majority of console game players)
I think linux needs to be less intimidating to the lay person before more games really take off.
---
Linux Is Not Ideal For a Console (Score:3)
If a console manufacturer is forced to go out of his way to close an open system to profit, he will be discouraged. Besides, if you need to learn another API to program for their system than who cares whether its Linux powered? We need to see more native Linux 3D desktop games first and improve the performance and driver support for 3D cards under Linux. Then, we can worry about creating embedded Linux distros for consoles.
If you want a Linux gaming machine, install Linux on your desktop.
Too many consoles, so few ports (Score:2)
So now we have the Playstation, the Nintendo, the Dreamcast, and now companies are adding a zillion more. Obviously, the independant game designers out there can't be to happy, so perhaps they should start porting to Linux. I mean, alread the way it is, I'm sure several game designers are going to port their games to several different boxes built on several different console platforms. I believe, while they're at it, they might as well port to Linux as well.
Or perhaps an even better idea would be to develop a standard for all systems (kind of like DirectX on (forgive me) Windows, but for all platforms). I believe that Apple was working on something like this for a while. Then, perhaps, the next generation of consoles could still have their quirks that make them unique like a DVD drive or more memory or somethign along those lines, and developers could even optimize their code for the specific types, but there could still exist a standard development platform for designers wishing to port their games elsewhere.
So, I guess you could say this is a call to action. Perhaps the Linux community should start a foundation and get other companies to join in. What do you think?
Re:Other E3 Insights. (Score:2)
At any rate, the fourm was moderated by the Chief Technical Officer of RedHat and included a representative from Loki. What suprised me (but made sense) was that the Loki guy seemed to think (at least that was my interpretation)that perhaps the "openness" of Linux was one of the big problems when it came to game creations (don't flame me, I'm only the messenger). Interesting point however. He suggested that the fact that many distrobutions are different made it hard to program for. That and the lack of vendor support, of course.
Anyway, it is encouraging to see that some developers are creating some good games (Neverwinter Nights for example). It was, however, dishearting to see so little support on the show floor.
Anyway, E3 was pretty cool. I even got to meet Gary Coleman (rock!).
Kris
Gameplay... rendered. (Score:2)
Etc.
Anyway, sorry to pop your bubble dude, but you shouldn't trust all the video's you see at a game conference...
Let's use Napster to distribute Linux games...NOT (Score:4)
Well why don't we distribute full versions (with no restrictions) of all Linux games that currently exist and in the future using Napster.
That would grow the population of people who would play Linux games.
Oh wait, that would mean that the Linux developers wouldn't get any money for it which means they wouldn't develop the software ...
Hang on, how does this compare to the Metallica issue? What is the difference between trading mp3s and Linux games? You're not stealing cos the original copy is still there (just using one of the arguments from previous discussions). Is it okay to trade mp3s on Napster simply because Metallica is rich?
Would anyone disagree that distributing Linux games on Napster severly limit if not kill the Linux game market?
I'm interested to hear other peoples views on this ...
Ease of development is more important than profit. (Score:2)
Re:Linux Is Not Ideal For a Console (Score:3)
One of the reasons console manufacturers are hesitant to use Linux (or any other open OS, for that matter) is because of what happened with the I-Opener fiasco. The business plan for console manufacturers enables them to license developers kits, compilers, and other software to developers--benefiting greatly from a proprietary, closed system.
Are you on crack? Game consoles are cheap precisely because it's easy to maintain profitability with huge number of users, and rudimentary technical support (what support? for consoles that were thrown from the fifth floor? for people who don't know the voltage in their outlets?). Console manufacturers want to have as large development for their platform as possible. It's game development companies who care about closeness of their environment, copy-protection, region codes, etc., however currently all of them are mostly a minimal annoyance for the user by now.
Re:Linux Games (Score:2)
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--Loco3KGT
--elguapo.penguinpowered.com
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Re:One way to help - Erase Windows forever! (Score:2)
Imagine if you simply stopped using Windows, and bought yourself a few different consoles instead - with the money saved from not doing a lot of PC upgrades (like a new 3D card every six months) you could probably even get a nice HDTV to play games and watch DVD's on. You could then choose to buy either a Linix, PS2, Dreamcast, or Dolphin version of a game and probably miss very few great Windows only games as a result.
I know there are a couple of categories of games that really work better on a PC right now - but given that the PS2 will have a HD, both the Dreamcast and PS2 will have keyboards and mice, you can imagine that pretty much every type of game will move onto the consoles.
Of course, my own argument is shattered by two words - Diablo II. But after THAT game, no more Windows games for me!
Beware Token Linux Support (Score:3)
Potential Linux gamers should be wary that companies are supporting Linux out of financial viability rather than PR or code-improvement reasons. We'll start to feel like Mac users if the cross-platform games released on Linux are lacking in features, late, and buggy. A good example is Unreal Tournament [unrealtournament.com]
Tim Sweeny, head of the Unreal Tournament (UT) development team, is apparently a big fan of Linux and it seemed like the Linux UT port was going to get a big push, even after it was decided that including the small Linux portion on the CD would imply real tech support. The truth is, it runs on Linux, but not very well. Unlike Quake 3, for which the Linux version is a seperate purchase, UT is a toy for people running both Windows and Linux. There is no support whatsoever, patch releases come long after the Windows patches, the product is buggy, and doesn't demonstrate a good understanding of Linux philosophy (this is evident at the install phase for many reasons: it must be installed and run with the same owner, it uses Windows-style files and directories, etc.).
My point is that we have to demand that games are written (and patched) modularly so that they are equal across platforms.
indrema's not being sold just for homes (Score:3)
It seems they're not just targeting this at home users -- they're billing to to corporations as dumb terminals for web-based apps and and as web kiosks and hotel room access. could be interesting, this looks cheap enough to make widespread use actually feasible...
is there a market? (Score:2)
Want to work at Transmeta? MicronPC? Hedgefund.net? AT&T?