Linux Games Not Selling 259
Patrick McAllister was one of the folks who wrote to us about
a report talking with John Carmack [?] regarding id's sales of Linux games. Apparently, it's been pretty absymal - enough to cover costs, but "they wouldn't make a bean-counter blink". I wonder what Loki's experience has been.
I'm not surprised... (Score:1)
In order to sell more linux games, they need to make it MUCH easier to get all the related packages set up.
Maybe my new graphics card (with a different chipset) will let me get this working
stop feeding the troll! (Score:1)
However, if it will motivate you to never do another windows title again, I'll never hire to you to work on a game for me because you admitted the existence of linux and didn't say "May bill gates live forever" at the end of your sentence. Linux sucks! windows rules! I hurl invectives at you!
So, are you going to never develope a windows game again?
Re:The real reason why linux games don't sell (Score:1)
I don't think it was ever 'conducive' to anything. I think 'exclusive to actual convenience' is more apt. who wants to spend 100 hours to learn how to run their gaming machine, anyway?
Re:stop feeding the troll! (Score:1)
late, hard to install, small selection (Score:2)
- Most Linux games come out long after the corresponding Windows game. Since many Linux users can dual boot, they'll already have gotten the Windows version by the time the Linux version comes out.
- Linux games are often a pain to install. Q3 on RH6.1 took some effort, I haven't been able tog et it to work at all after upgrading to RH6.2.
- The Linux games available at our local computer store are: Quake 1, Quake 2 (actually off the shelves already), Quake 3 (excellent), Railroad Tycoon (got OK reviews), Myth II (not my cup of tea, but got good reviews), and Heretic 2 (awful). That kind of selection isn't sufficient to keep a gamer happy. So, everybody has to be able to run Windows for games anyway, and then they might as well keep buying all their games for Windows.
Linux won't become a widely used, popular game platform until many of the major games are released for Windows and Linux within a short timespan of each other (what about releasing for Linux first, for a change? good way to do QA before the Windows masses and Windows technical problems bite). As long as vendors can break even on the games, I hope they will keep porting. It may not be a money maker now, but once the market catches up, it will be.Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:1)
It's pure crap!
My father bought a laptop with win95 and of course wanted to use his usb-zip, should just be to plug it in? Right!
It detects it. good.
Reboot... starting win95, oh wait not zip...
hmm install it again... detects it... reboot...
no zip! install again... no zip. Tried copying usb files to other directories after some talk with some other people... Didn't work
Went to the manufacturers homepage and downloaded usb-fix. That should take care of it...
Ok, detects zip... reboot... zip working!
Confident I turn it over to my father... He starts using it... turns it off... no zip...
reboots... no zip... install usb-fix again... detects zip... shutdown... starting win95 no zip!
I just settled on making a nice icon on the desktop with the name "Find zip-drive", and suggested that he should get win98 upgrade.
Why isn't the win98 cd we have working, he asks me. It doesn't have the drivers, I tell him...
He can't really understand that you would need to buy a new win98 cd to upgrade his laptop.
So Linux isn't more than 2 years behind win (win98) in getting usb to work!
Re:No, Quake isn't selling...it's not easy to find (Score:1)
Availability of the Linux version was the reason that I didn't buy it.
I spent a week trying to find a copy of the Linux version, unfortunately, none of the local stores carried it. I finally said "Screw it" and bought the Windows version so I had something to play.
I know I'm not the only one, either, because a good friend of mine told me he did the same thing. Had the Linux version been available locally, I would have bought it in a second.
Surprise, Surprise. (Score:1)
we supported it (Score:4)
So on the release day they got one (1) copy in, and my friend snagged it for me. I came in and bought it. My brother wanted the next copy. 4-5 days later another copy came in and he got that one. Apparently some people had been asking for it, but because it wasn't in stock they didn't buy one. Eventually they sold a couple more but they never had more than one in stock at any time. I don't know what the EB purchaser was smoking because they could have sold many more. I was expecting at least 4 or 5 like they would get for even the crappiest windows release of a new game.
Also Amazon.com wouldn't let you preorder. THis is the way I obtain most of my cd's, dvd's, etc. I order them way in advance and usually get a decent discount. Then they just magically show up on my door. Works well. I talked to Amazon's customer support department and they just said they didn't know when they'd get it and that they wouldn't accept pre-orders. I don't know if they ever got it in. That hurt sales as Amazon has got to be the biggest software retailer.
THe funny thing is that I never play Q3 anymore... I have decided to stop playing games about 6 months before it came out, yet I put down my $40 to support commercial Linux releases. I've got a cool tin box if nothing else... the CD is still in the cellophane if memory serves. I guess I wish more of the other members of the community voted with their dollars.
-k
issues and solutions (Score:2)
A.) Released a good bit after the windows version
B.) Binaries for each platform would become available on the web.
C.) The 3d driver status wasn't so hot. As far as exceptable peformance goes, a V3 was the only solution so that narrowed it down even further to those that had a V3.
So what possible solutions could there be to improve game sells?
A.) Better 3d drivers obviously. However, this will take time and patience. A great deal of work is being put into creating wonderful drivers for current cards and even future cards as we speak. X 4.x is improving a great deal too. All we need is a little patience and possibly a urge to help out.
B.) A more user friendly setup. Stock linux installs aren't geared towards gaming. I belive that Nvidia and 3dfx should both provide a their own linux distro which should just be a modified version of some other distro like redhat but more oriented to games and their hardware.
C.) Gnome or kde panels that contain all apps loved by the typical computer user that exist in windows. Ex. Mpeg players, mixers, cd rippers, mp3 player, etc.... (this portion has improved greatly in the last 6 months but has plenty of room to improve more.)
D.) Lastly, a well know site that contains a list of substitutions for windows applications. Ex. ICQ->Licq,Kicq,gnomeicu. Word97-->Staroffice. Winamp-->xmms. etc...
I don't fear my loss of power just loss of use (Score:1)
I know why... (Score:1)
for Linux on the day of the release. Here are
my gripes from that time...
What are they crazy...an after Christmas release... I was broke for a month after
that O' So Pleasant holiday... not only that...
but I was quite content with the vast assortment
of gifts I recieved from friends and family. Myself and many others didn't really need much more.
If anyone recalls... X4.0 wasn't quite out at
that time. I honestly didn't want to go back
to an older version of X to get the early nvidia
drivers working, and I know a good bit of novices
who would break out into siezures if you mentioned
a non-rpm install.
A good bit of us waited on X4.0 and nvidias promise of good 3d hardware acceleration. This
unfortunately came months after Q3's initial
release.
In my opinion, Q3 isn't that great, maybe I
am just burnt out on this particular genre...
but I am sure there are a good many people
who have feelings similar to myself.
IMHO, Q3A for Linux was released at the wrong
time, novice users were at a bit of a challenge,
and Linux really wasn't ready. Compare these
realities with the target market of young
adults and it looks like ID software hung themself
by the balls.
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:1)
However, don't forget that in the grand scheme of things, 'people that read Slashdot' is a a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of 1 percent of all people.
Linux IS a niche market. Its made inroads faster than just about anyone thought possible, but its NOT mainstream. Ask Joe Q Public what Windows is (in relation to an OS), most will know, ask the same guy what Linux is and you're likely to get a blank stare.
Re:Reasons why Quake3 for Linux didn't sell well: (Score:2)
5) (at least originally) If you buy the linux version, you can only play on linux. If you buy the windows version, you can play on linux and you can play on windows (and its $10 cheaper). What would the average linux user buy?
Well if an OS isn't your friend it's close (Score:1)
bought copy at LinuxWorld in NYC just for a server (Score:1)
Now, I don't actually use it for playing the desktop version, but I do run the server version on my Linux box.
Vote with you $$$$.
Re:Ditto for certain Linux system companies (Score:2)
Is waiting all that hard? (Score:1)
...because 3D in Linux sucks (Score:1)
Someone (not me) needs to improve the setup of Glide/Mesa/Whatever to make it Just Work.
WTF is up with that link? (Score:1)
Re:Err... That would be Carmack's /. post... (Score:1)
Johan V. (who wonders wether win200mag will write an article about one of my postings someday.... neh I just stopped wondering)
Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:1)
Say, you're not the J-J-J-Julius guy, are you?
Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:2)
Lea
I bought my hardware for Linux compatability too (Score:2)
If you're a hardware vendor that wants my sale, support Linux. If you're a software vendor that wants my sale, support Linux. It's as simple as that.
I find locating it to be hard to believe (Score:1)
Re:What do they expect? (Score:4)
Re:What do they expect? (Score:1)
However, I did the math and came to this conclusion: If there were less people like him, the net effect on the precious Linux gaming world would be zero. Assume you started with 10 people like him, who are Windows(TM) gamers, but use Linux. Now assume all 10 of them spontaneously combusted. This doesn't *add* to the number of games being bought. We simply have 10 fewer people using computers.
I did even more math, and came to the conclusion that you, single handedly, could save the Linux gaming universe, by simply buying more games yourself. Good luck.
---
The fight's not over, until the winner is tired.
I'll tell you why... (Score:1)
I completely understand as they are two different compaines etc. But Loki needs to tell the community they can't buy the windows version and then download linux binaries. As for SOF, I'm sure I'll buy the linux port if it ever drops below $30 dollars and I don't need the money for extra crack.
Re:WTF is up with that link? (Score:2)
Ah, but the view is so nice from up here. I wasn't knocking the one who submitted the link... I was knocking /. for posting it. I understand it's Sunday, a slow news day and all, but come on...
As far as wasting badnwith telling people how to e-mail me...
That's my sig and it's geared toward all those people who have email addresses like: bob@NOSPAM.mit.edu accompanied by a sig saying, "Remove the NOSPAM to email me." Well duh.
The sad truth (Score:2)
I fiddled for a few hours with glx, gart, kernel recompiles, xfree config files, and lots of different documents that all proported to explain how to set it up. I have a Matrox G400, but I only ended up getting unplayable frame rates, except at the very lowest quality setting in 640x480, which wasn't very exciting.
Now I've been using linux since a few months before the 1.0 kernel (0.99pl14 as I recall), and many years before with SunOS, HP/UX, NetBSD on various hardware. I did much more in a 3-4 hour session that anyone could reasonably be expected to do to set up their video card, and despite trying many different configurations, none produced acceptable fram rates.
Still, I'm glad I bought it and in a little way contributed to id not losing money, even if they just barely broke even. I also purchased many of the other early Loki boxes. Seeing Tux (and a little note that it won't run on windoze) on the box in the store was just awesome. I tried to play Myth2 a bit, and I never even installed H2 at all.
The novelty (of seeing Tux in the store) has worn off, so now it'll take something really cool and probably a downloadable demo to get another $50 from my wallet.
The sad truth is that not playing games that much, the 200-500 megs it takes to install a typical game is better spent on MP3 files, which tend to provide more hours of entertainment and even while I'm using the computer for real work!
very true (Score:2)
I think that Linux is getting viable, though. Stuff like 3D is rough but getting better by leaps and bounds, installations are now fairly easily, at least in redhat and the like (for some reason they haven't cleared up some of the terminology in the installer, though. I can recognize the option by a name in parenthases and a first-timer installer would probably do with a less historic name for some things). The desktop, especially with helix, is getting more polished.
I think that we are in a pretty good place as far as the linux snowball is going. As you said, breaking even, especially on a game like quake III, is a very good sign.
Well, quake is enigmatic. On the one hand you have the fact that it is very popular because the basic game is good. On the other hand, it's the same game (more or less) as the previous too versions, and while the graphics are much better, it doesn't change the fact that the game hasn't changed too much. I'd be very interested to know if the game in question being quake helped or hindered linux sales. I could see both ways.
Either way, breaking even is indeed very good. Since so many things stacked against the linux sales of Q3 (later release date, reliance on 3D acceleration which isn't easy to get working, etc.), it's got to make other game developers think that they could fix those problems and make money. Wait... that's what Loki did. Yeah, I think that we can safely hope for a bright future.
Re:Lessons from the Amiga... (Score:2)
Actually, I would suggest that you made a greater departure from reality tha he did, but there may be a good reason for this - you lived in Europe and he didn't (guess).
Computer prices in Europe were sky high and so the Amiga was very competitive. In other places in the world, the Amiga was stupidly expensive.
Example: You say the reign lasted until '94. In the part of the world where I live, in '94 an entry level PC was running 24bit graphics faster than an A4000 ran 8bit graphics, and that A4000 (with only AGA) cost nearly twice as much as the PC, (and that's ignoring what happened if you needed support or repairs)
When saying what the Amiga was or wasn't, you are always going to wrong unless you also specify where.
Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:2)
3D: This is actively being worked on in XF 4, etc. While true, it's kind of pointless to say that people should be working on what they are already working on.
Retailers: true. I virtually never buy stuff from brick-and-mortar shops, but it would be nice for them to stock the linux versions, and for the linux versions to be available.
Standardized system: There is. OpenGL for graphics, linux joystrick driver to joystick, X for keyboard and mouse. Or use one of the ever-expanding number of cross-platform compatability libraries. Glut could make a decent choice.
Anyhow, few people seem to attribute poor quake III sales to quake. Quake has been the same game for the last three versions, and really the last6 if you cound doom and wolfenstein. I liked wolf, I enjoyed doom, and I even enjoyed quake occasionally, but come on. They're the same game with different graphics and a few tweeks in gameplay.
That and ever-increasing unrealism. I never even bothered with III when I saw a friend play a demo - people were moving around so damn fast they might as well not have bothered rendering them at all. He died after entering a room, running halfway accross it, and spinning at least 400 degrees in around a second.
seriously, since linux is still disproportionally made up of geeks (aka smart people), don't you think that they'd be disproportionally made up of people who get tired of the same damn thing over and over again, with the big distinction in newer versions being that they require even more hours of practice to get a modicum of skill?
I know that I have better things to do than to play occasionally, and if you're anything but a dedicated quake player, your ass is going to be smeared on the wall pretty constantly.
Linux sales of quake might be more of a metric of how many people have nothing constructive to do with any of their time, rather than a how-many-people play games on linux. A more interesting question would be for games which don't have such a high skill bar for entry, and thus are playable by those with jobs, relationships, responsibilities, etc.
If not selling why the backorder? (Score:3)
I've been waiting for an order since June 20 and when ever I ask Digital River about the status of my order I get a responce like this:
"The product you ordered is currently on backorder. Our warehouse has
not yet received this item, but we will be filling orders upon arrival.
We do not have an estimated date on the arrival, however. You will
receive an email notification when your order is actually shipped. Your
credit card has not been charged at this point. We apologize for any
inconvenience this delay has caused."
If there is no demand, I wouldn't have expected the games I ordered to have gone onto backorder in the first place.
Maybe it is only the ID games that are not selling.
Re:Hate to say this, but... (Score:2)
My personal Stats (Score:2)
- Diablo 2
Games bought for Linux:- Heroes of Might and Magic III
- Soldier of Fortune
- Myth II
That's in the past 2 years, I believe. I'd *much* rather play a Linux game, but I'm also keen on Diablo 2, and it pains me that there is no Linux version yet. But, alas, all in due time. I believe the gaming market for Linux is going to *boom* because you can make cheap game consoles with Linux. SorryRe:Lessons from the Amiga... (Score:3)
I am a former Amiga zealot, from 1987-1991 the Amiga was the greatest computer in the world, at least in my world.
Amateur. You sold out in 1991? What on earth for when the platform didn't start dying until at least 3 years after that? Some zealot!
The Amiga was actually fairly popular as a game machine, and we had a number of titles available which were quite successful. Most of the Psygnosis stuff, a few crossover games from the Atari ST like DungeonMaster, etc.
It was IMMENSELY popular as a games machine. There were some HUGELY succesful games, the only one of which you mentioned was Dungeon Master. Do some research.
But I'd also say that the reality was the Amiga had the highest percentage of software piracy of any platform available at the time.
It came from a couple of basic issues:
#1. Most Amiga users were college students, without much money.
This may be the case, but that is NOT the reason. The reason piracy was so high was because 8bit games sold for 10 quid and Amiga games sold for 30 or more. Plus there were an INORDINATELY high number of users. A 10% piracy rate on a machine that sells say 5000 units is a LOT lower than 10% on a system that sells 50000. (And some Amiga games did.) So of course piracy is going to appear higher.
#2. Most Amiga users were afraid to commit a lot of money to their system because it was fringe.
Fringe? Are you on drugs? The Amiga was huge and never became "fringe" as you put it until the PC started kicking it's ass thanks to Doom. (HEY! On topic! Carmack made it, Carmack made it!) Plus there is the fact that upgrading the Amiga made little or no sense for gaming beyond taking it to 1 meg of ram. Games were written for the stock machine, so one computer would run it much the same as another. Case in point, F1GP. On the A1200 it wasn't any faster on low detail than the A500 due to the framerate being hardcoded, so to say about Amiga users being scared to commit a lot of money into a fringe system is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard.
That is, there was always this fear in the back of ones mind that next year you'd buy a new computer and it wouldn't use any of your current stuff.
What color is the sky in your world? That's TOTAL shit. The problem came around 92-93 when C= released the A600 (a castrated A500 effectively) and shipped Kickstart 2 with it, then shortly thereafter shipped Kickstart 3 on the A1200. (Still the best computer ever made.) Until the A600, no Amiga user had any fear of that. I knew a LOT of fellow Amiga users back then, and not one worried about that. C= claimed that if programmers had stuck to the guidelines, backward compatibility would have been 100%, but due to pushing the hardware there were significant incompatibilities with older software. Before this point, your alleged "fear" was non-existent, and since you say you left in 91, you were long sold out before the problems were even remotely worried about.
Anyway. I think these issues that hurt the Amiga still hold true today,
They're all in your head. You have no clue whatso-fucking-ever. You are an idiot.
Oh, one problem the Amiga also had. We went around telling all the software companies that if only they'd write software we would buy it. Of course they did write software, and instead we pirated it.
AH! So you were not a zealot, but a software pirate. Congratulations, you're an asshole. As for "we pirated it", fuck you. YOU may be a thief. Others are not. Don't paint them to be the asshole you are.
After a few years of this, a large number of companies simply stopped supporting the Amiga.
Wrong. While piracy was an issue for them leaving, the primary reason was the greener pastures of consoles and the PC. All the time, piracy problem or not, they could make more money developing for the Amiga than the PC. Then Carmack came along with his old dog doing a few new tricks, and they left. THAT was the problem. Piracy was just bandied around as the reason. Carmack could have supported the Amiga but chose not too, despite the fact that Doom has now been ported to the Amiga just fine.
Honestly, I have never seen such outright bullshit posted on Slashdot. I mean for crying out loud, you say you were a zealot, yet you left long before the Amiga became huge. Some zealot. Do you even know the meaning of the word? Perhaps if you'd stuck around until 95 and beyond like the TRUE fans did you wouldn't be so full of shit and may actually know what you're talking about.
I could pick apart your ridiculous statements some more, but frankly I'm bored. You're talking complete bollocks, and nothing I say is going to change that. Next time, try posting on a subject you actually have a clue about, like masturbation or something.
A REAL Amiga zealot.
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:2)
Your assuming wrong...
There are quite a few of us around that run Linux as their primary OS. I play Quake3 and Unreal Tournament under it all the time and I buy Loki games quite often. The only copy of windows on this harddrive is under vmware and it certainly isn't for playing games (hint: its for networking experiments).
And I suppose all those dedicated servers running on Linux are on dualboot boxen? [/sarcasm]
Remember DOS games in 1995-96? (Score:4)
Anybody remember the last category of software that used DOS as its main platform? That's right, games! It took a year or two until there was a sufficient installed base of computers, running a version of Windows that was even vaguely suitable for games, before Windows-specific games started to appear in numbers.
As Xfree 4.0 matures, and more and more people start using Linux as their only operating system, Linux games will start to appear in greater numbers.
Re:It breaks even ... that's good news... (Score:2)
well i dunno what os i've been using on the desktop for the past five years if the linux desktop market isn't happening. it sure seems like linux. and i've had over three dozen coworkers using linux desktops as well.
don't believe the hype about the number of windows users. it apparently takes two windows licenses to have one windows user in most companies. (and since they probably have a windows machine at home make that three per user.)
Re:We have a winner (Score:2)
You flatter me unduly
StarOffice does pretty much everyting I need in an office app, Nutscrape's available (as is Flash, acroread, realplay, other toys) for browsing. xmovie plays decoded
Now if only I could get broadcast2000 talking without crashing to my D8 camcorder over ieee1394, life without windows would be dandy!
Your Working Boy,
Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:2)
I can see a time when Windows and Linux developers will meet somewhere in the middle; I just hope we won't all be carrying weapons when we do...
Dibs on the rocket launcher.
Re:Ditto for certain Linux system companies (Score:2)
My only minor nitpick is that MS didn't really make a play to "home" users, but rather the desktop users with apps like MS Office that didn't require memorizing F keys to use. The IT Managers were worrying about their servers and their gateways, and woke up realizing that "We don't support Windows" wasn't going to fly when the user base from the CEO on down had surruptiously already stated using their handy preinstalled copies.
Anyway, the attitude of "Let Microsoft have the desktop, we'll make money selling servers" has never worked in the long term, and eventually Microsoft will be a player in everything from your handhold to your mainframe -- it's only a matter of time. A successful competitor (Apple?) has to take them on directly on the desktop.
Of course, Bob Young and others on the business side of Linux almost have to downplay the "desktop". Linux is so not ready in that department the suggestion is laughable at this point. Give it a year or two more of turd polishing.
Re:No, Quake isn't selling... (Score:2)
Almost half of my software purchases are from overseas -- usually the US -- using a standard-issue VISA card. I've begun ordering more online, as well, though vendors tend to charge MSRP, so I try to avoid them.
I've never been asked to pay an exchange rate, and shipping almost always runs less than US$5. The only downside is delivery times tend to run at least a week.
Lee Kai Wen -- Taiwan, ROC
Re:We have a winner (Score:2)
what i use to edit documents, edit code, send mail, browse the web, ftp, play music, rip cd's, keep todo lists on, play videos, download pix from my camera, upload music to my (usb) rio, automatically do certain tasks for me, and generally help me organise the digital side of my life.
is that what you mean by desktop? because bar netscape every single application is better then the windows apps people have shown me on windows. staroffice is tied with word in my book, i haven't seen a decent wp since writenow on the mac.
What do they expect? (Score:3)
Even though i LOVE linux I still use windows for gaming for the main reason that, right now at least, it's the better platform for games. Look at recent benchmarks. Although most of the differences are hairthin Winhoes still has the advantage. When more support is added for linux and more people start using it as a desktop, it'll start to really take off.
Not in stores = Not selling (Score:2)
One store says they carryed Quake I and II for Linux and it didn't sell so they arn't bothering with Quake III.
At issue ID make a huge mistake reasing a Quake I and II Linux pacage. No one bought them becouse anyone who would want Quake I or II bought it for Windows a long time ago and got the Linux binarys.
But the stores don't know this. They think it's the first chance Linux users had to get Quake for Linux. They don't know what is happening and just assume Linux gamers don't exist. Pack up and don't bother with Quake III.
So the rest of us are stuck doing what we allways did. Buy Quake III and download the binarys.
Reality... can't get Linux games if people won't sell them...
And the Game shops DO NOT know that Quake and Doom for Linux has existed for years it just never existed as a pacage you could buy in the stores.
I know ID never planned this. They didn't realise the stores could be so ignorent of one of the most populare games in the industry.
But they are... and thats the point...
So don't release it to the stores for box sale if it's existed in binary for Linux for over a year.
Linux users are not unfamilure with downloading software. Thats where 90% of Linux software is... on-line waiting to be downloaded.
For now the best solution is to drop the Linux binary on the CD or on an FTP site and count operating systems by a busness reply card not by box sale.
Then when you can show the stores significant Linux numbers you can talk them into carrying new titles in box form.
And for hacks sake.. don't ship boxes of outdated products for Linux to stores. Sell them yes.. At Linux shops etc who are familure with what will and won't sell. But not at Babages or CompUSA who can't tell you the diffrence between Slackware Linux and Mandrake Linux.
No, Quake isn't selling... (Score:4)
evey title Loki has published, but I didn't buy
Quake. I bought Unreal Tournament instead.
For one thing I could buy UT for $29 and download the Linux binaries. Q3 however was $60 and impossible to find locally. They were too similar to buy both, and my judgement was that UT was better-- and at half the price the decision was a no brainer.
URL? Suspicions? (Score:2)
I haven't read the story, for obvious reasons, but in any case, given the source - Win2K Mag - and the target - Linux's popularity in a market which is very much of Microsoft's interest, gaming desktops - I'd be just a little bit suspicious of bias, twisting words and just generally bad journalism. Then again, I'm paranoid.
Re:WTF is up with that link? (Score:2)
Wrong link (Score:3)
Can't people check their damn links before posting submissions?
--
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:2)
Given the current Linux market, I'd agree. Games probably won't sell anywhere near as well on Linux, even given better support.
But there is more than one variable in this equation. If the Linux market changed because of the availability of games, and their ease of use on the platform was better, I'd disagree with you.
I play plenty of games, and I have some experience running Unices. But I HAVE to run Windows at home to get compatibility with my favorite games. I like Q3, but there are a lot of others out there.
What if Linux evolved to the point that you could tell gamers "Hey, we've got a rock solid OS that's easy to install and games run very quickly on it."
Don't you think we'd see a rise in Linux users?
And don't start with the "we don't want those types of users". When it comes to market share, we just need numbers. If the Linux market share rose to %20 don't you think that more software companies would make Linux ports a priority?
cot
Re:Ditto for certain Linux system companies (Score:2)
These companies have been able to gouge corporate customers who pay twice as much for linux hardware, on average, for server systems, as the hardware is worth. Similarly, while it may APPEAR that Redhat and Suse are targeting the home user, they aren't. They would like for Linux to be used on the desktop in corporate settings, though, especially in thin clients they are hyping as replacements for pc's. RedHat's Bob Young repeatedly states that "the desktop is 80's technology". Well, that's where the users are, Bob.
The goal of all these companies is to sell a linux solution to corporate customers, complete with proprietary ecommerce suites and service contracts and eventually to provide application services on a rental basis as well. If a customer isn't installing expensive servers and/or at least dozens of client nodes (preferably hundreds) VA, RedHat, and Suse really aren't interested. But they will sell you a boxed set anyway at Best Buy or let you order a "starter" system for $1000 without monitor (gee thanks), shipping and handling extra.
This is EXACTLY how IMB treated Os2. Os2 had a great desktop, but IBM was not interested in selling it to home users, only to corporate customers as part of a total IBM solution from mainframe to gateway to workstation. What IBM failed to realize, but MS did realize, is that the system workers and managers use at home is what they will eventually demand at work. People are using Windows now for almost everything at work because MS went out of its way to provide the apps for home users that home users wanted and to market to home users starting with Windows 3.1.
I fear that Linux will suffer exactly the same fate as Os2. Geeks who do sysadmin for a living fail to realize that the client eventually controls the server. They continue to recommend unix servers for Windows clients, but managers and most workers continue to see little reason not to make Windows everywhere a reality. The only hope is that MS will shoot itself in the head with humiliating licenses and restrictions that even technically naive persons can't abide. For example, having to buy a second copy to get .NET updates or if you upgrade hardware.
However, someone with marketing skills also needs to rescue Linux from the INCOMPETENTS running the major Linux hardware suppliers like VA and Penguin, and the major distros. These people think the have a "lock" on the server market and on corporate customers who can afford their exhorbitant pricing schedules. Like most incompetent business persons, they can only perform in areas where they feel they have a lock and are unable to create new markets or take the necessary risks to move into Microsoft's home territory. Nothing risked, nothing gained.
Re:WTF is up with that link? (Score:2)
Err... That would be Carmack's /. post... (Score:5)
The quote you see was taken from a post [slashdot.org] by John Carmack to Slashdot a couple of days ago. So, Slashdot is essentially reporting on its own user comments and it doesn't even realize it. :)
I don't know what's up with the Win2000Mag link. Anyone figured that out?
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Same here (Score:2)
Quake 3 problem... (Score:2)
As a result, there are several linux gamers who didn't buy the linux version of Q3a but are still playing it under linux (quite legitimately, as well).
This raises another problem currently experienced under linux; there is usually a delay between the Windows version and the linux version. Thus far, Quake 3 has been the smallest gap (a few weeks) with Soldier of Fortune only being a few months. Games like Heroes of Might and Magic and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri have had delays of over a year. In short, if you want to play the latest games, you have to be playing under Windows.
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It's not all that surprising (Score:4)
Windows for gamin (Score:2)
There is no target audience, practically... (Score:2)
I can say for sure that the people buying these games is either a sys admin or a developer who doent want to dual boot to entertain himself.
Especially when the rising sales of Linux are only mostly as a substitute to NT, and not to 95 or 98.
So until the kid next door does'nt switch, id can wait.
--Anaplexian
"To define recursion, we must first define recursion."
Yes, but... (Score:2)
I didn't get a copy of the Windows game, so I can't use 99% of the mods that are out there.
And very nearly simultaneously Nvidia backed of from their statements about releasing Xwindow servers. I only bought a TNT2 Ultra because Nvidia made statements positive to releasing drivers. Nvidia has cheesed me off.
Id should stick a Windows version along with the Linux version until 80% or more of the mod makers are releasing for linux also.
To this day, the only dollars idSoftware has seen from me were for the Linux version whenever it has been available, and will continue to be so.
id, Nvidia and others need to realise they need to sweeten the deal a little bit and be a little more realistic in there efforts.
Its damn tough to setup for the 3d games. (Score:2)
Re:No, Quake isn't selling... (Score:3)
The availablity of Linux games (or anything at all) makes a major difference if they are bought or not. Around here there is one store which has a section for Linux, and all thats in it is a couple (maybe 4) distros and WordPerfect for Linux. The rest of the stores in the area don't care about it.
To order a Linux game would just be out of the question, one store doesn't order, the rest charge so much for that sort of thing you may as well hand over your first born child.
Ordering online is another possibility, but living outside the US, I wouldn't even want to think about the shipping and exchamge rates.
Give it time, wait (and hope) that mroe retailers noice Linux and then the games will sell better.
-GreenHell
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:2)
Seriously, >30 fps is just gravy -- the difference between adequate and overkill. BTW -- I'll still be in the game racking up kills when your DirectX crashes :-).
Linux Games (Score:2)
Linux games are a great thing at least in the USA.
Greets,
blurred
Ditto for certain Linux system companies (Score:3)
I would like to predict (Score:2)
I would like to predict right now that this article will mysteriously disappear within a few minutes. Such happens to every pitiful mistake of a Slashdot article. :) Come on, guys! All three of your links are wrong! As if that wasn't enough, it's also a repeat subject!
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reasons for low sales (Score:3)
1.The windows version was released signifigantly later than the linux version. I am a huge fan of Id's games and bought the game the first day it was available.
2. It is difficult to setp up 3-d for linux - things are getting better, but at the time that quake3 was released I would not have been able to use my nvidia tnt2 with quake3. The drivers simply were not sufficient. Now drivers are available for many cards. However, it is still a signifigant chore to set up Xfree86 4.0 under redhat 6.2 and get the nvidia drivers working. Presumably Redhat 7.0 will fix this.
3. If you buy the windows version you will eventually be able to get the linux binaries. I am willing to dual boot to play quake for a while as long as I will later be able to switch over to linux.
4. Not many retailers carry the linux version.
Aaron Bryden
Re:If not selling why the backorder? (Score:2)
Re:What do they expect? (Score:2)
Reasons why Quake3 for Linux didn't sell well: (Score:4)
2. The Linux version wasn't as widely distributed as the Windows version (bn.com didn't have it nor did most online "etailers", local software places here didn't have it, etc)
3. Linux 3D video card support *at the time* wasn't very good, it has improved with the NVidia drivers, XF86 4, DRI, etc. Gamers would buy the Windows version as their hardware would work there, then once it worked in Linux download the Linux binaries.
-- iCEBaLM
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:3)
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Ski-U-Mah!
Well... (Score:2)
I've bought a couple of loki's games and am actually planning to do mail order thing to buy three or four more in the near future. I haven't been particularly overwhelmed by Quake III (Ho hum, another FPS from Id) and have no plans to purchase it in the immediate future. I did buy Quake I and Quake II soley on the basis of their Linux support.
Back when I still had DOS on my system, it was my observation that for every playable title that was produced, dozens were absolute crap. Thus far Linux has not been plauged by the titles that are crap and I'd just as soon Linux remain a barrier to entry to games like, Oh, I don't know... Daikatana? The way I see it, Quake III's pretty far down there on the creativity scale and it just doesn't interest me. Maybe what Carmack's seeing is the lack of suckers who will shell out the $50 for second rate material. Of course, I could be way off base here, too.
Duh - like this was news... (Score:2)
When an average desktop Linux distro has support for all this in the base install and easy to configure, there will be more people who do their gaming on Linux. Until then, most users who like to play games will probably keep a Win98 partition around for games, and do the rest of their work in Linux. In the meantime, Linux gamers are barely a blip on the charts, relatively speaking, and stocking games isn't worth the shelf space for most retailers. Hell, if Mac users have trouble finding games in stores (and getting them to sell in reasonably large numbers when they do appear in stores), with a million-plus Macs sold every year, then Linux users aren't even on the radar by comparison. In time, they probably will be, though - but it won't be until we solve the problems I mentioned above.
There's money in Linux software for some vendors, and there's probably money in Linux games, too - but patience is a virtue until the desktop is ready for the true mainstream. That day is coming, hopefully soon.
- -Josh Turiel
Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:2)
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
Re:We have a winner (Score:3)
i think people who use windows desktops are shortsighted and using/learning skills that microsoft bases its business plan on making obsolete every few years. all the unix tools i used in college bar one have followed me to linux 10 years on (i can't get rn to build). i also chose to stop using xv because eog is faster (and licensing is better).
Re:Ditto for certain Linux system companies (Score:3)
~luge
Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:5)
This isn't rocket science.. these articles are stupid because they paint linux in a bad light without really looking at the underlying issues, that people like Carmack, Redhat, et al. should be working on instead of useless installers that don't really do anything new.
Linux has a long way to come in the multimedia/gaming/video arena, and I don't see anyone offering any real leadership. I'm still pissed that RedHat can't use that billion dollar market cap to grab NVidia and the other 3D manufacturers by the balls and get drivers released. Oh well.
Re:Reasons why Quake3 for Linux didn't sell well: (Score:3)
id lost my business because of that. I only play UT now. Bad move, and I was ready to go buy the q3a boxed tin at Software etc...
Christ on a Bicycle (Score:3)
It breaks even ... that's good news... (Score:5)
I wouldn't have expected a Linux game to even break even. Linux is doing amazingly well in the Internet server market, but I didn't think the Linux desktop market really existed yet.
If it's true that the port paid for itself then game manufacturers can now afford to support Linux without losing their shirts. Seeing more games available will encourage users to switch to Linux. Seeing more users will encourage more game producers. Once the positive feedback loop is established things will snowball.
Getting to that break-even point is the hard part. If we've really reached it then this is a significant event.
Re:Yes, but... (Score:2)
Do not buy based on what *might* happen. Rather, buy what *is* available and working.
Companies say all sorts of things, which may or not come to be soon enough for your needs. Buy what they have, not what they don't.
Failed - bah, you're looking at it wrong (Score:2)
This is good news if anything
Video cards - which one? (Score:2)
Maybe one cheap and easy solution to this would be it the games manufacturers allowed you to download a tiny test program from their website that just checked to see if your machine is capable of running their games or not.
Another reason that I've not been quick to grab my wallet is that the games that have come out have been typical geek games, not gamers games. Lets see some more arcade type games that you can just do for fun for 1/2 an hour instead of some monster of a game that takes weeks. I want to come home from a hard day at the office and have a brain fart, not figure out how I'm rule the world!
Why on earth would you think sales would be good? (Score:3)
I love Linux. I've been using it professionally for years. I also play a lot of games. But I am the exception, not the rule. The rule in video games is the console market. 13 years old with a little higher than avg. disposable income, and no patience for a command line.
Linux may already be owning the server business on many fronts, and will certainly progress on all, but the "Linux game market" today is a curiousity dreamed up by wishful thinkers and zealots.
Linux makes sense for games when it's a platform for development (a surprising number of popular games were developed under Linux and then ported to Win32 for release) - after all, not having to reboot every time your code tries to spew on the memory or the GUI subsystem is a pretty big dev. advantage.
It may also make sense as a game platform generally, given a proper gaming interface... that is, none at all. If you took out shells, /etc, X, and login, and replaced them all with shiny opaque surfaces, you could have quite a nice, extensible foundation upon which to base, say, an X-Box killer... oops, no DirectX, no large developer base... too bad.
But is it anyone's loss if the gaming industry doesn't make money on Linux even in this decade... or perhaps, at all? As long as Linux is raising the bar on operating systems, whatever would-be monopolist that happens to be current will at least find themselves motivated enough to try (i.e. Win2k). In the meantime, video games will forever trend towards mass market, as an outlet eventually comparable to Hollywood in stature as well as in profits... and part of that is the future of the console: cheap, hot special purpose hardware subsidized by software royalties.
Linux isn't about fun and games... (Score:2)
If I want a bunch of pretty flashing lights, then sure, M$ is the answer.
If I want scalability and power, then Linux is the answer.
If I want MORE power and stability.... it is time to download the lastest FreeBSD....
Linux ports are the wrong solution (Score:2)
Shouldn't we be looking for some means of running games intended for Winblows platforms directly on our Linux and *BSD machines? That's how the problem should be addressed: do the work once, and benefit from it thousands of times over.
Of course, that's easier said than done with M$ moving the goalposts regularly, but surely it's not impossible. After all, they can't move the goalposts too far otherwise the games binaries won't work even on their own platform.
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:2)
Re:It's not all that surprising (Score:4)
Linux is a niche market, primarily (I'm guessing) run on dual-boot PCs, which usually have some version of windows and supported hardware. So, most people who could/would buy a game for Linux could/would buy it for Windows as well.
Since most of their other games are likely for Windows, it's not unreasonable for them to buy Q3A (or whatever) for windows, instead of Linux, just out of simplicity/momentum.
The ones who did buy it are the early-adopters, and that's generally a small crowd.
Re:Wrong link - Suspicious (Score:2)
Please please please tell me you're not serious...
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Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:2)
I recall that the Linux version was ready to go at the same time as the Win32 version, but it was deliberately delayed until _after_ Christmas. (I believe the 26th?)
Here I was just after release date of Q3A, standing in front of a Win32 copy at Staples, and _knowing_ I couldn't find a Linux copy on the shelves, or even order it for weeks!
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid! So I have two copies of the Win32 version, and zero copies of the Linux version. Even though I would have preferred to have one of each, or even both Linux. (I run the Linux version under NetBSD)
So in "protecting the win32 market" or whatever the reason was, the Linux market was killed, right from the _very beginning_ with Q3A.
Re:Reasons why Quake3 for Linux didn't sell well: (Score:2)
Re:Christ on a Bicycle (Score:2)
This is a fundamental problem of non-commercial development - people only work on what they are interested in. Techie people can do it whether is PNP or not, right?
Re:Simple reasons for games not selling (duh) (Score:5)
Why should John Carmack be making Linux better? Sure, he worked on the Matrox driver, because he was "scratching an itch".
But he makes games. He needs to concentrate on what he does best. If members of the Linux community want games to be viable on their platform, then they need to sort it out.
I'm not entirely convinced that Linux is at all suited to games right now. Consider the console vs PC situation. Consoles provide a known environment that's relatively easy to program for. PCs running windows are more variable, but still pretty reasonable. A Win32 binary runs without too much trouble on any Win32 platform.
Linux is pretty scary for a game developer because there are so many configurations out there. Also you have the basic level of contempt that the general Linux user has for closed source products. Sure, one answer would be to go Open Source, but I suspect that few games companies are about to go down that route; Also we effectively work for publishers, and whereas we're happy to work for not much more than the satisfaction of a job well done, you will find that "money talks and bullshit walks" a lot of the time.
I can see a time when Windows and Linux developers will meet somewhere in the middle; I just hope we won't all be carrying weapons when we do...
Re:WTF is up with that link? (Score:3)
You can't find the darn thing in the stores! (Score:2)
quite lame to bitch about low sales.
I wanted to buy it but couldn't find it
so I ended up with the winblows version.
I ain't about to pay double for one stupid
game.
Perhaps the sales might not have been very
much higher but I fail to see the logic
in complaining of low sales when the ones
who want to buy can't find it anywhere.
Why not bundle the damm thing with the winblows
version? There is plenty of room on the CD.
Lessons from the Amiga... (Score:4)
The Amiga was actually fairly popular as a game machine, and we had a number of titles available which were quite successful. Most of the Psygnosis stuff, a few crossover games from the Atari ST like DungeonMaster, etc.
But I'd also say that the reality was the Amiga had the highest percentage of software piracy of any platform available at the time.
It came from a couple of basic issues:
#1. Most Amiga users were college students, without much money.
#2. Most Amiga users were afraid to commit a lot of money to their system because it was fringe. That is, there was always this fear in the back of ones mind that next year you'd buy a new computer and it wouldn't use any of your current stuff.
Reason #2 also held true in later years when I turned to OS/2. I never once purchased an OS/2 specific version of software, in fact I knew few people who did. We'd rely strickly upon the Win-OS/2 and DOS compatibility.
What's worse with OS/2 was that reason #1 on the Amiga never even held. Corporations who had money also didn't buy OS/2 software.
Anyway. I think these issues that hurt the Amiga still hold true today, except that college students seem to have more money than we did back then. Working $10/hour jobs instead of $3/hour has an impact on the beer budget.
But on top of that Linux users in general have also taken on this attitude that not being able to afford software isn't the problem, it's those EVIL GREEDY corporations actually putting a price tag on software. Software should be free, and as such it is immoral for one to buy software.
It's a very strange paradox, and one which will never really put Linux in a position of encouraging development from commercial software companies.
Oh, one problem the Amiga also had. We went around telling all the software companies that if only they'd write software we would buy it. Of course they did write software, and instead we pirated it. After a few years of this, a large number of companies simply stopped supporting the Amiga.
Of course we said that was because their software was crap. Of course the fact that we pirated it and used it meant it was not realy crap, we were just hypocritical.
Basic lesson there is, don't tell companies there is a market for something unless there actually is a market.
Didn't the Linux version come out later? (Score:2)
Works great, except the bean-counters think that nobody is using Linux for gaming.
If you want to compare sales, you have to make sure the W32 and Linux boxes are on the same shelf, at the same time, no?
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Driver Support (Score:2)
Huh?! There are NVidia drivers and they are great for gaming. No, they aren't open source but they are there. 3DFX has drivers that are open sourced. ATI is working on DRI drivers for the Raedon cards.
Besides, isn't that MS's job to bully people around w/ their money?
3D support isn't that hard to get configured. 2RPM's and a one line change in my XF86Config file got my NVidia up and running fine. 2 Minutes (if that). I agree that it's a turn off to newbies to not have support out of the box but it will happen.
--
A mind is a terrible thing to taste.
Re:It breaks even ... that's good news... (Score:3)
In my opinion it is perfectly acceptable for these game companies to port the game to Linux and allow the executable to be downloaded, while shipping the Win32 CDROMs to the stores.
As long as there is some mechanism in there to count the number of people that bought the Win32 version so they could play the Linux version, I think this could work for many companies. (and it already is of course)
Perhaps one of the reasons for the limp sales of the Linux only version of Q3A was the fact that it cost more than the Win32 version due to the fancy packaging. Again the publisher could have just as easily made this game a Win32/Linux version by including _both_ executables on the same CD.
I guess the real problem is there is no way to guage the market. If thousands of Linux users download the UT executable it doesn't matter because they still get counted as a Win32 sale when they buy the Win32 version at the local store. This is perhaps a problem that needs to be solved first before the suits at certain publishers will actually take notice of the Linux market.