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Games Entertainment

PS2 Games to Require Online Authentication 165

Posted by michael from the makes-me-happy-I-didn't-buy-one dept.
M Bison (ha-ha) sent in this news-bit about Sony adding new copy control measures to PS2 games. Sigh. CT: For starters, the future DVDs and CDs will be imprinted with unique serial numbers, and the PS2 will authenticate over a network connection before allowing playing. This is apparently connected to the upcoming PS2 hard drive, and network connection.
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PS2 Games to Require Online Authentication More

PS2 Games to Require Online Authentication

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  • paying or not its still the fact that who wants to have to worry about being connected so you can make sure you indeed did purchase your game.
    its a load of crap if you ask me.

    .ph0x
  • Um. :blinks: 'k, whatever. I'm sorry if you were offended, i was merely trying to say that i am not going to put much credit in your argument until you can produce some assurance that the assumption that you're basing it on is well-founded. /me shrugs..

    So you are saying then that you don't have any documentation?

  • I'll bet Sega is wishing that they hadn't gone out of the Hardware business right about now...
  • Actually, there isn't that much different, because there already ARE "alternatives"--existing PS2 games and games for other platforms which don't rely on on-line validation. Only REALLY GOOD games that were ONLY ON THE PS2 would have a snowball's chance in hell.

    Let's outline the facts that make this scheme retarded:

    1. You have to be wired to even use the game. What if you are in an RV and went camping, and it started to rain and you wanted to pass the time playing the PS2 you brought along? What if you have a snazzy new PS2-equipped Ford Behemoth Extra-Gigantic edition SUV and you want to keep you kids occupied on a long trip? No can do, without a wireless system with good coverage (non-existant today, at least at reasonable prices). Also, is the connection dial-up? Better supply a toll-free line or validation through a standard internet connection so those in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan don't have to pay long-distance every time they fire up the ol' PS2...

    2. One option allows for the game's ID to be validated against a machine's ID the first time it is used, to restrict the game to one machine. This is SEVERELY retarded, because this disallows legitimate use of the game. What about rentals (a lucrative stream of money)? What happens if you want to lend a game out (NOT so it can be copied), or play it on a friend's PS2 and big TV? You'd have to bring you PS2 with you to play your game! What happens if your PS2 breaks? All your games are useless with a replacement unit, unless you phone or e-mail Sony to re-set your games (I imagine that would have to be annoying and time consuming enough to deter users from abusing the service)

    3. How long will Sony support the games? Will Abandonware become useless? Will they assure us that the auth system (and thus the games) will work in 10 to 20 years? (Sound unreasonable? I STILL enjoy playing Ladybug, Venture and so on on my Coleco--19 years after they were made and 10 years after the entire company bit the dust)

    4. Privacy. Big Brother Sony can have a list of ALL the PS2's in use in the world and the games that are used on each one, and how often. Enough said.

    5. The PS2 works without this cripple-ware scheme with existing games--ie. it is "optional". The only way cripple-ware schemes like this would work would be if the entire industry colluded to make a standard cripple-ware scheme and made it mandatory for ALL NEW SOFTWARE. That would take a long time and could possibly invite trouble from government competition bureaus (aka trust busters). For this idea not to be a complete dud, all software vendors would have to decide it is worth the hassle to accomodate the hassle and lost revenue caused by the issues mentioned above. Otherwise Sony would have to make it a mandatory condition for every PS2 license. Then game makers will say "screw this--we'll stick with the much larger base of PC owners and N64s, and make the snazzy new edition for the X-BOX instead of the PS2"...

    This idea definitely has merit to be nominated for the DivX "most retarded corporate idea" award...
  • Yeah, exactly how will people use the PS2 who DON'T have (and/or don't want to buy) the modem/broadband hardware be able to play any games? This seems a little much.
  • "Therefore, I don't think you'll be required to put Name, Address, Email account, etc."

    You miss the point. By collecting this information, Sony makes MONEY. Making money is the only reason that Sony exists. They have no higher power to answer to for this. There is no morality for Sony. There is only making money. And if they are going to force online authenitcation anyway, you can be sure that they will have no qualms about doing a little more work to turn a huge profit on it.
  • I think that people overstate the cases of piracy. Is it wrong? Sure. Does it cost Sony (or MS, or whoever) money? Sure. Does it cost a company billions of dollars? Nope.

    I understand that Sony sells these systems at a loss and then make up the difference and then some on the games. That's fine. But you characterizing it as a multibillion dollar hit is ridiculous. Sony makes money hand over fist with the PS and PS2 and games licensing. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in this business. Sony is not an impoverished company desperate to try anything to stem the financial bloodloss of piracy. They are a multi- tens of billions dollar international mega-corporation that is making obscene amounts of money off of this scheme. Sony wouldn't be making the PS2 if they weren't making a killing on them (by them, I mean the whole PS2 culture, as we know they don't make money on the console).

    Let's be honest here. I know tons of people who have Playstations. I don't know anybody who has a hacked Playstation. I don't know anybody who has any pirated games. Certainly there are people who have a closet full of pirated games, but they are absolutely the minority. Most people wouldn't know how to pirate a game if their life depended on it. We (in the tech biz) tend to believe the inflated piracy figures simply due to our exposure to the technology. We know how trivially easy it is to dupe a game. We are by far the exception to the rule though.

    Sony may lose several million dollars a year due to piracy. But it's not losing millions because Joe Blow rented a Playstation game and copied it on his CDR and plays it on a hacked system. They lose millions to the professional pirates who have duplication factories set up that do nothing but copy games 24x7 and sell them for $10 a piece. That's who they need to go after.

    And BTW, the people who have the resources to pirate on a massive scale also have the resources to disable Sony's copy protection, or maintain their own pirate authentication server, or whatever else they want. The people that Sony is inconveniencing are the legitimate users.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Challenge, yes. How about the convenience of being able to play your games while your DSL connection is down?

  • Let me enumerate some reasons:

    • People will no longer be able to resell games.
    • Returns to retail stores will be a MAJOR hassle, and many stores may cease their return policies altogether because of the increased costs in handling returns.
    • My console is broken! Rather than spend a ridiculous sum of money repairing it, and being without a PS2 the entire time, I buy a new one. Oops! I can't play any of my games now -- at least, not the ones requiring authentication.
    • I have a kid who's rather rough on CDs and DVDs. OOPS! The disc is broken/hopelessly scratched up/whatever. (Beyond any hope of using some tool to polish out the scratches, for instance.) Too bad I wasn't able to make backup copies, which I'm legally entitled to do.

    The rest of this thought experiment is left as an exercise for the reader.

  • I said it once, I'll say it again. Sounds like FUD to me.
    --
  • This isn't just a Sony issue. This could become a keystone technology in any "Internet appliance" that uses physical/replaceable media. Want to play a movie or music CD? Better have a network connection for authentication! This is almost DIVX like in concept, and I suspect it will be met w/ the same reaction from consumers.

  • This means no rentals and no used game shops. (Score:4)

    by joshsisk ( 161347 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @07:32AM (#369265)
    I don't care anyway, I pay for my games.

    So do I, but I care if they plan to make me hook my console up to an outside line to validate my games. This had better be only for those online-only games, or else they will suffer a rude awakening. And what's up with the locking the game so you can't take it to a friends house, or sell it to a used game shop... Hey, this also means that these games CAN'T BE RENTED.

    Josh Sisk
  • First off, I write network code.

    Oh whoopdee doo. Are you trying to impress me? Try again. I know plenty of people with a more impressive skillset than "writing network code."

    I know how easy it is to do this type of stuff. And yes, I have in fact done similar things in the past to get around some of the silly authentication.

    Hey idiot, all you have read is a dailyradar article. Don't assume that just because you can write "network code," you can hack your way around a product that you don't even know about.

    For example, Xerithane (speaking of tasteless geeky nicknames), Half-life and Q3A still has a secure and working authentication system. Let's see you prove yourself by cracking that, wiseass.

    You come from an .edu -- lets hope they can teach you some common sense.

    If coming from a .edu would mean I have common sense, it's obvious you didn't come from one.

    ---

  • Planned Obsolecence (Score:4)

    by rampant_gerbil ( 221545 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @07:33AM (#369267) Homepage
    This would be enough to keep me from buying one. And what happens when the PS2 becomes obsolete? Is Sony going to keep running their authentication servers forever, or will there come a day when no one can play the games they purchased for this console? "Sorry, why don't you go drop $500 on a PS4?" No thank you.
  • I'm Ryan Koppenhaver, and I'm a flaming homo.

    ---
  • For example, in cases where use is limited to only the original purchaser, such as a game or character purchased and downloaded from the Internet, once the game is played on one PS2 it will not work on other consoles.

    What this tells me is that gone are the days when you can just grab a bunch of your games and run over to a friend's house to play games for the weekend.

    They're making consoles so complex, they're hardly "toys" anymore.

    And I'm also wondering if the cost of creating this service and putting it into action isn't going to cost them almost as much as they "lose to piracy."

    "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
  • Anyone who knows anyone with a Sega Dreamcast can tell you very quickly why Sega was brutalized on that system : Piracy

    Or perhaps it could have been:

    - The lack of advertising
    - A sappy slogan
    - Launching with some games that didn't work
    - Bitter 32X owners
    - Less high-profile 3rd party support
    - No backward-compatability whatsoever
    - Titles that cost about $10 more than the same ones on competing systems
    - So few RPGs
    - That many people didn't like the standard controller
    - Windows CE phobia
    - A blitz of false rumors about the system
    - Being *completely* overshadowed by PS2 hype

    Sega used a "GD-ROM" for it's games, did it not? If I remember correctly, they hold twice the data that regular CDs do. How well did piracy really work around this?

    (I'll be getting my Dreamcast off of layaway next week.)
  • That's great. What about people with no broadband? There is NO official Sony solution to get online. So I guess they just wont/can't play some games. And what about people who don't want to have to buy an extra piece to play certain games. (Shades of 32X - Sega CD?) Oh well, go ahead Sony, alienate a big part of your market. I'd love to see it go to DC, GC, or XBOX anyway.

  • Why is this such a big deal? If you paid for a legit copy of the game, why are you sighing? You *do* pay for your software, don't you?

    - A.P.

    --
    * CmdrTaco is an idiot.

  • Some of hackers were getting a bit board with this CSS crap. Perhaps this time they may make it a bit of a challange.. HA HA. Yea, right. Let 'em spend millions, and we'll get a million laughs.
  • Now when the PS2 server goes down, you can't play...

    Hope they plan to have a ton of mirrors!
  • Aye, time to switch to decaf :-)
    Cynicism about corporate motives is a learned response after 12 years of working for them.
  • Oh I'm sure blockbuster and all those game rental places will LOVE this one

    -paul
    ---------------------------------------
    The art of flying is throwing yourself at the ground...
    ... and missing.
  • Oh well, go ahead Sony, alienate a big part of your market. I'd love to see it go to DC, GC, or XBOX anyway.

    A pity that the Dreamcast is end-of-life hardware. Although from what I've seen, plenty of people out there are passionate enough about the DC to keep it alive... at least as a hobbyist platform.

    Let me ask you this, though: Do you really want to cede this market to Microsoft's XBox? That prospect frightens me. We all know the GameCube isn't going to make as much of a splash, since Nintendo seems content to saddle itself with being the "niche" player here.

  • I agree. I'm not against a company being able to prevent piracy, but I can see some consumer rights that will be 'forfeited' (i.e., taken away) by this method. How about my right to play my games on the new machine I bought because the old one broke? How about my right to sell or give my game to somebody else because I decide I don't want it? How about my right to play my game in an area where I don't have a network connection?

    You make an excellent point that these rights should be identified and protected for all consumers.


    Scratch-o-Matic

  • Wrong. It doesn't authenticate if the interface it's running on is a LAN address (192.168.* and such).

    IPX is dead in terms of games. I can't remember the last time I ever even saw an IPX game. Diablo 1 was the last one I played.

    --
  • And one right that we must have is the right of backups. So one of these 'enumerated' fair-use rights must be to make full backups of your expensive media.

    No, it is not acceptable for them to offer a service that will send me extra copies. I have no assurance that they will be in business in 2 years, 10 years, or 50 years.

    That's the issue. You cannot, in TECHNICAL TERMS distinguish between fair use and infringment. The only thing that can make that determination is a LEGAL COURT OF LAW.

    So, even if you could construct, and keep up to date, such a hypothetical list, there still would be no way for a technical measure to determine whether or not the use it is put is on the list.

  • To me, the problem is that the company approach implies that, by default, the customer is a thief. By your logic, you don't think search warrants are necessary because, hey, why would you mind law enforcement barging into your house whenever they want unless you were doing something wrong. And can you prove you own the clothes you're wearing? I think we have a shoplifter in aisle 5 ...
  • Er... surely the only right you really have is the right not to buy the game. If someone wants to sell a system and specify in the contract how you're allowed to use it, surely that's their right. Isn't it?

    If people care so much about having systems that don't do this, then I can only suggest they get together and develop a competing system that doesn't. And if you can screw Sony that way, then well done. But don't moan about "rights".

  • No, actually i think you've hit it.

    Perhaps the thing you bring up is not a disadvantage, but the reason that the entire system was implemented in the first place?

    Why implement a system that causes a huge amount of hassle to all legitimate gamers without appreciably making a dent in piracy? Well, like you said, such add-ons are historically purchased by a vast minority of customers; yet said add-ons only have value if they are owned by the vast majority of customers.

    So, all Sony has to do is implement this DiVX style system, thus mafia-style "encouraging" you to get a network adaptor. Think about it. To you, your purchase of that modem adaptor just so you can play use-controlled games was a hassle; to sony, it was $45 revenue. So painfully obvious.

    The eternal stupidity vs. malice dichonomy .. I don't know how to spell 'dichonomy'.

  • I may be wrong in terms of Q3, but IPX is far from dead.
    StarCraft and Red Alert 2 come to mind right away, I'm sure there are even more.
    Not all networks need TCP/IP.

  • Have no phone? Then Sony sayz "Fuck you." (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have no telephone. And no I'm not a bum. I live in a dorm. Rooms aren't wired for their own phones. There's a bank of public phones down the hall. Does this mean I can't play new PS2 games?

  • Which will... (Score:3)

    by xeroxxx ( 316211 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @02:20AM (#369286) Homepage
    Promptly be hacked the minute it enters mainstream consumption. I can't wait until some warez kiddy, makes a 'ps2 authentication server' that runs as a background process on his networked WinME box... that will just be great.
  • You left out one thing. It will also mean a lot more games don't get returned. I can see kids having their mom rent the latest and greatest FPS for their kids, only for it to end up "missing" on the day it is due to be returned. I think something like divx where they dispose of the CD after rental would be more likely here, although that is a complete waste of resources.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • All you have to do is hack together a box that has the code to play it on there. If it's done over ethernet then connect it to the network and find a way to translate all queried IP's or hosts to that one box.

    If over a dialup, a bit more difficult but you can hack a modem and a BBS system. If this actually happens, lets hope they do ethernet because it would make it tons easier to bypass.

    The obvious question, is why do stupid online stuff. What about people who don't have a phone line connected to their house or place where they are watching a movie? And those portable DVD players? I know this guy who has an N64 in his car, what's he supposed to do when he wires his PS2 in there? (Granted, it's stupid to have a console in a car, there is a certain cool factor in doing it)

    Bleh, stupid folk.

  • Oh yeah, this model worked real well for Divx. (Score:4)

    by Ronin X ( 121414 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @07:21AM (#369290)
    People just love having to maintain a connection to the outside world for the express purpose of validation... and payment... can pay-per-play ps2 games be far behind?

    Of course Quake 3 authenticates your unique key and nobody's bitching about that (much)...

  • I have a feeling that this will only be feasible with online-only games. One of the main selling points of consoles is ease-of-use and I doubt that this will be used very often... I don't care anyway, I pay for my games.
  • What kind of console system _REQUIRES_ network based game authentification? I can't belive that sony is actually going to make everyone who wants to play future games on their ps2 get a network adapter and have an availible phone line whenever you want to play your game. Might as well get a real computer if you're gonna have to share a phone line each time you use the damn thing.

  • I'm sure glad I own a dreamcast.
  • What happens if I want to resell the game? What happens if I want to take it over to a friend's house? What happens if I don't happen to have a network connection?


    ...phil
  • But that method of anti-piracy is asumming you'll be connected to a network. So if I was playing a pirated game or dvd, all i'll have to do is unplug (if I actually am connected) my network.

    Doesn't make much sense to me.

  • ALL YOUR BASE (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Are belong to Shane Battier. Eat it, Cryolina.

  • Whats wrong with that? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It only stops copying of _copyrighted_ software, and what is wrong with that?

  • Hacking Things (Score:5)

    by Smitty825 ( 114634 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @07:40AM (#369298) Homepage Journal
    Why is everyone so excited that someone else can hack something to get them the service they want? Each time we hack something, the big companies learn something new about how things were hacked, and it makes it much more difficult to hack things in the future.

    What we need to do is identify what rights we have as consumers (and, no, not the right to pirate), then pressure our governments to create a law that forces RIAA, MPAA, M$, and other Copyright-based companies to protect our fair-use rights!

    I've written my Representative in Congress, have you? (...assuming you live in the US...write your government leaders in your own countries)
  • Yes it does cost the game corps money.

    They lose money on each console they sell. This happens for three reasons.

    1) They produce consoles when it costs lots to make and market them (in the begining).
    2) They need to get their console into your home.
    3) They need you to buy the games for the console

    Unfortunately Sega got the hardcore gamers with the DreamCast but those hardcore gamers are internet/computer savy. Those gamers did not buy as much software after the lauch smoke had cleared. I'm not saying that piracy was the only reason the system died...that lies also with Sega not getting the non hardcore gamers to buy the console and its games.

    Bottom line: If you buy the dreamcast now and pirate the games, congratulations, you have cost Sega money.

    Sega is an interesting example. They bailed on the Dreamcast hardware business so that they could concentrate on the software (very profitable) side of the business. The DC (from what I've seen) is a very capable console system.

    However, it does seem to have been initially priced rather lower than the consoles from Sony and MS, even though it's still got comparable equipment (well, maybe not compared to the X-box). It almost looks as if Sega made a mistake by pricing the unit too low and losing too much on the initial sales. Still, they've produced and sold millions of units. And when they decided to get out of the hardware business they cut the prices to move the rest of the units and thereby increase their potential market for the software.

    To be honest, Sony is probably more responsible for the death of the Dreamcast than anything else. I heard tons of people saying, "Yeah the Dreamcast is great, but the PS2 is just around the corner and it's even better, so I'm gonna wait!" Besides the fact that Sega really has trouble competing with the Sony PS line anyway.

    Even still, the Dreamcast is far from dead (it even runs Linux!). They may not be making them anymore but there is still a substantial market for Dreamcast games. So Sega's not gonna take as big of a hit as you'd think (if at all).
  • Then why did someone from id post a big warning about how the auth servers were going to be down at a certain time? I wasn't just about the server lists, because they said it affected even people using other master servers.

    Maybe a later patch fixed this, but in the beginning (which is when they had the most problems) people were actually unable to play.
  • Quake 3 is not GPL, you're thinking of Quake 1.
    The point of authenticating Quake 3 is to make sure nobody pirated their copy, and I have no idea how they got away with it.

    In fact, I would say they probably didn't as Q3 sales haven't been anywhere near the amounts sold of the previous 2 Quake games. I honestly think that the cd authentication scheme had something to do with it.
  • The problem with Q3's central authorization is that id doesn't run servers. Blizzard is going with central authorization, but only to access their servers.

    When id actually coughs up the money to run server, they'll have an ethical right to check ID before letting people on. Until then, they should take a hike.

    Not to mention the whole problem with their authorization servers going down. They're down fairly often for a few hours here and there. It's not a large percentage, but that's unimportant. For that period of time paying users aren't able to play.

    The only games I'm going to buy are ones that I can play when I want, with or without a net connection. And without any per-per-play features. The exception would be massively multiplayer games that the company runs the servers for, and where the game was bought (and advertised) with the expectation that all games would be played online.
  • Oh whoopdee doo. Are you trying to impress me? Try again. I know plenty of people with a more impressive skillset than "writing network code."

    I don't try to impress people. It's bullshit, just like you. I do what I do, I say what I mean. I know what I can do, and I do it. It's not my fault you envy my abilities and think you have to talk bad about me to make me feel better. A good quote about this, "Everything we hate in others, we hate in ourselves." -- So if you think I'm bullshitting, that means you obviously do it too. Which seems reasonable after looking at your posts.

    Hey idiot, all you have read is a dailyradar article. Don't assume that just because you can write "network code," you can hack your way around a product that you don't even know about.
    Yes, I'm sure you said the same thing when people said it's possible to crack CSS. Stop talking, and doing - you obviously don't know the first thing about .. well.. anything.

    As for my nickname, it's mostly derived from my Gaelic roots -- you definitely aren't a scholar of any sort other wise you'd know that.

    If coming from a .edu would mean I have common sense, it's obvious you didn't come from one.
    No, coming from an .edu means you are another sheep in the herd. What's it like to not be able to think freely?

  • Interesting question. However, I highly doubt that your PS2 will still run in 24 years. The lifespan of newer consoles is much shorter than for the old ones (because of more moving parts,...)
  • Well, of course he won't care, because he's not an employee of the cable company. Rather, he's an employee of a contracting company that your cable company hired to do all the installations.
    --
  • Yes, I'm sure you said the same thing when people said it's possible to crack CSS

    From what I heard, they tried to crack CSS after it was out, not after lamekid gaming magazine said there would be encryption involved.

    No, coming from an .edu means you are another sheep in the herd. What's it like to not be able to think freely?

    Right. As if your rebelish opinion about college educations is a truly unique perspective. There are hundreds of slashbots that share your opinion whenever those "ask slasdot: is college education necessary?" articles pop up. Talk about tech support/sysadmin groupthink.

    ---

  • Actually Quake 3 authentication sucks balls. Anyone who has been to quake lan party in the last year can tell you, for some stupid reason it likes to ask you for your cd key all the time if you aren't on the Internet. It does it like once per mod I think, but sometimes it will just wig out and ask for it even if it's a mod you've played earlier.

    At the last lan party I went to, it got so damned annoying I swore I was never going to buy another peice of cd-key authentcated software again.
  • From what I heard, they tried to crack CSS after it was out, not after lamekid gaming magazine said there would be encryption involved.

    Yes, and I'm sure Johan said, "This can be cracked" long before it was released. One of the first things they should have taught you is no system that has an untrusted party is ever truly secure. You must be a biology major or something?

    As for school, I did go to a university -- I was talking about you specifically. I don't have a rebellish opinion about standard education. It works, for standard folk. You really have no idea who I am what so ever, or what I do, and it makes it that much more fun when you talk shit about me.

    Good thing you don't matter - otherwise I'd care about your opinion of me.

  • How do you know they will? Spreading bad news on a small tidbit of information and then making assumptions on that small tidbit all amounts to so much bullshit.

    Why assume the worst case senerio? If your that paranoid about hardware/software, you probably shouldn't be on the internet. Somebody's probably using all your Slashdot posts to create user profile of you right now.
    --
  • Yes, and I'm sure Johan said, "This can be cracked" long before it was released.

    How "sure" are you? As in "making up stories" sure, or "adlibbing" sure?

    One of the first things they should have taught you is no system that has an untrusted party is ever truly secure.

    Obviously the news that Half-life and Q3A still has working authentication hasn't gotten to your cave yet. That's ok though!

    It works, for standard folk. You really have no idea who I am what so ever, or what I do, and it makes it that much more fun when you talk shit about me.

    Right. Like you know who I am. I guess this is the kind of hypocrisy promoted in the colleges for kids like you. Some of us receive better education that tells us the weakest link in network security is human interaction, and that CSS was poorly designed from a cryptographic point of view.

    (You did know that CSS was broken because of shoddy implementation and shoddy design, not because "no untrusted party is ever truly secure" right? It would be horribly embarassing if you didn't know that)

    Oh, and can you please explain to me again why Q3A and Half-life hasn't been hacked yet? You casually avoided that point in your reply.

    I'll give you a cookie if you reply again, plus a little homework exercise that I can cook up in 5 mins that you won't be able to crack.

    ---

  • In order to actually implement this, Sony are finally going to have to get off their lazy arses and implement an online solution at last. So while its an evil, stupid idea to authenticate games that don't have to go online otherwise, we might get some movement to avoid a repeat of the laughable situation where PS2 Unreal Tournament can't be played online.
  • With the system, known as DNA-S, game CDs and DVDs will be imprinted with a unique ID. When a user puts the disc into the PlayStation2, the software ID and equipment ID will be verified over a network through an authentication server. Games that are not authenticated will not work.

    The way I read this, a network connection will be mandatory. YOU must have DSL, or something.

    While network connections, etc are common these days, I do not want to be **required** to connect my playstation to a network.

    I wonder what kind of a marketing flap this will create?

  • If they think I'm not allowed to lend a game to a friend, surely I am not allowed to invite friends over to play the game. Right?

    What they really need is a joystick with a fingerprint scanner to make absolute certain that no one but the authorized person is allowed to play the game.
  • Actually, I just spent $40 on a game at my local EB, and the game sucked. I took it back and exchanged it for another one, no questions asked.
    You can TRY the game, but if it sucks, you have to expend the efford to return it.

  • Have you SEEN it working yet? (Score:3)

    by Ryan Koppanhaver ( 322330 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @07:43AM (#369315)
    Sorry if this sounds flamebait, but it really sickens me to find ego-bloated /. users who thinks they outsmarted billion-dollar corporations with some blanket statement "simple workaround, all you have to do is...", BEFORE the the system is out!

    Xerithane, did you make some simple workaround to hack into the Sony headquarters and dig up the info, or are you just bluffing to karma whore?

    I'm not saying it can't be hacked. But there are two things I'm pretty sure of:

    1. It will happen AFTER the system is implemented
    2. It won't be from a /. user blathering his "hack this hack that" opinion three months before it's released, just from reading news on a video game website. Calling them "stupid folk" when you don't even have first-hand documentation on how this work only reflects poorly on you.

    Go ahead and burn my karma, but this time I don't really care.

    ---

  • I can understand this working for networkable PS2 games [ie, Quake 9 or some ungodly incarnation] where you kill your opponents over the internet... but for single player type games [Final Fantasy?] that doesn't directly need networking, they're going to require some sort of internet connection? Seems ridiculous. So not only do I have to pay $80 for a game, and $40 for @home service, and then another $20 for the SonyNetwork gaming network or whatever, then I also have to authenticate those same games over the internet. How hokey.

  • Sounds kinda like the way Microsoft is licensing Terminal Services for Windows 2000 Client Access Licenses. Each CAL is registered to the MAC address of the Network Card in the computer. If a card goes bad and you have to replace it then you have to call Microsoft and have them reissue the license. To top it off, the way the license is worded, if you decide to replace a system that has been issued a CAL with a new system you can't reuse the CAL for the new system.

    In other words I have a 300 MHz Laptop thats a few years old. If my company were to deploy windows 2000 terminal services and I were to aquire a CAL for this system then when my boss decides that its finally time to replace the laptop we have to buy another Terminal Services CAL for the new laptop.

    Its amazing what you can do when you have a monopoly.
  • So aside from the admitted possible inconveniences (i.e. a delay, or having to connect to a network) associated with having the machine authenticate itself over a network, is there another reason would people be upset about this ? Is it really wrong for a company to try and verify that every user holds a valid license ? Lots of software companies do this now, in some form or another (i.e. they force you to enter a reg key when installed). This just goes a small (but logical) step forward. And don't say piracy isn't a huge issue for these consoles, because although I don't own a PS, I (and I am sure many if not most /. readers) know tons of people who bought the 'chip' and burn copies of either their friends' or rental PS games for themselves. Given that evidently companies don't make much $$ out of console sales, and hope instead to recoup their development costs on software and/or license sales, this is a completely logical thing to do. Not to mention the likelihood that their licensees may well have demanded this ability, for the reasons above.

    And would people here be equally upset if there were developers out there trying their darndest to enforce (e.g.) the GPL that their products were released under ?

  • Right. Like you know who I am. I guess this is the kind of hypocrisy promoted in the colleges for kids like you. Some of us receive better education that tells us the weakest link in network security is human interaction, and that CSS was poorly designed from a cryptographic point of view.

    Wrong, it was broken because an untrusted party decided to break it's dodgy implementation. If all parties were trusted, there would be no problem. Think outside the box, I know it's a strain but please try -- it's ok, you are young and don't have much life experience but at least make more of an effort.

    As for who you are:
    You are a little 19 year old kid, who has a big attitude that is from Ohio. I could care less really about you. And, they really are failing on the deductive reasoning in your curriculum apparently.

    The main reason why Q3A/Half-Life hasn't been cracked is probably because no one who could do it gives a shit because we can afford it. The reason why people cracked CSS is more because of a political reason (it wont work on Linux, we want it on Linux) than a "I'm a poor bastard who has to pirate" reason. Good enough answer for your dumb ass or you want me to connect the dots even further?

    As for a reply, I'll give you one. If you get it right, maybe I'll even think. When I interview little pissant kids like you straight out of college this is what I ask them. If they get it right I continue the interview.

    You have a singly linked list of 500 integers. Print them backwards.

    Good luck, and if you want to know a little more about my qualifications [slashdot.org]. If you've worked on a project like this, then you have a right to sling mud with me -- until then, try working a little harder in your life.

  • Sorry, you failed -- you just aren't worthy. Proving that you really are as inexperienced and ignorant. And it is both 'singly' or 'singularly' -- just depends upon how you want to type. Go do a google search.

    Thank you for you going out of your way to prove what I was saying, I appreciate it. Wonderful end to a thread, to fail a test like that? Don't beat yourself up too bad.

  • Sorry, you failed -- you just aren't worthy. Proving that you really are as inexperienced and ignorant.

    haha, that's funny. I searched on Google and all I can find are answers basically said what I said. Talk about ironic. And notice that you could've answered my question still, but yet you had to choose a way to squirm out of it! Now that is pretty sad for a senile programmer hitting his mid-life crisis. Do you tell your colleagues that you lie that way to save yourself from embarassment?

    I'll make sure to pass on your great qualifications and reputation! Now this is truly a classic to archive for sharing.

    Hugs and kisses,

    "Ryan"

    ---

  • Just to satisfy your curiosity, the correct solution is:

    Reverse the pointers.

    8 bytes of extra memory allocation (two pointers),
    two traversals.

    So much for idiocy, eh? Stop looking at college sites -- it's the exact reason why I reject losers like you.

    I don't need friends with mod points, because I dont really care about slashdot that much -- the best part of it is having discussions with stupid people who don't realize they are stupid. Thanks.

  • Case in point, this is my last post.

    I just proved, without a doubt, that you are quick to respond without knowing the entire details. The point is, the actual purpose of the question is to see how you think. Failing miserably on all cases, you are so adamant that you are correct in everything that you never stop to think that maybe there are other solutions.

    You sir, are the idiot. You flamed me, called me arrogant when in reality solving problems like encryption, decryption, or just generalized "impossible tasks" is what I do for a living. You'd be amazed how well it pays, I have a right to be arrogant -- you know why? Because I am better than you. I'm 20 years old, I drive a 2001 M-B SLK320, live in a luxory apartment in the silicon valley -- finished college at 18 and get paid more money then I know what to do with. Why? Because I can do this shit. You wouldn't understand, stupid people can't comprehend what it's like not to be stupid. Don't beat yourself up about it, just don't talk shit because you have no room. You are about as qualified to challenge my intellect as a rock is, I gave you a fair chance to prove worthy to challenge me -- you didn't even ask a question to clarify the test! That is why you failed dipshit, not because your answer was recursion. I wont talk with anyone who is convinced that they are right without questioning their own system. They tell you to question authority, that includes your own. You are too stupid to have a discussion with, deal with it.

  • The key difference is that a pure multiplayer game (like Quake3 or Phantasy Star Online) will always have the network connection active and so the validation is no big deal.

    Except Quake 3's network design is nothing like Phantasy Star Online's, and Quake 3 has a single player.

    I understand central authentication being used in games that require a connection to the full Internet, such as massively multiplayer games such as EverQuest. I don't understand such authentication being used in LAN-oriented games such as Quake 3 or Tribes (AYBABTU [planetstarsiege.com]). A LAN-party network may not even be connected to the Internet.

    Thing is, Tribes 2 is going to use central authentication, but it isn't massively multiplayer. I can't see people buying business DSL just to get multiple IPv4 addresses so that everyone at a LAN party can authenticate to Sierra's central server.


    All your hallucinogen [pineight.com] are belong to us.
  • Of course. I'd say the majority of honest people worth a crap DO pay for their software, or they use Free Alternatives. (There are some losers who are an exception to this rule, but they're not honest, are they?)

    The problem here is that I think Sony (and anybody else [Microsoft!?]) is overstepping their "IP Control" the moment they start telling me where, when, and how I can use the software that I "liscense" from them.

    If I buy a console (in this case, a PS2) game, I should have the right to play it on any PS2 I desire, any time I want. On the road, in my basement, in the desert, where the sun don't shine, etc.

    I should have the right to do it in private. I should have the right to do it unmonitored. And I should have the right to continue doing so without constantly forking out cash.

    These rights are the very rights a system like this is VERY OBVIOUSLY intended to slowly take away from me, and the only way for any of us to keep these rights is to prevent them from even STARTING THE PROCESS OF REMOVING THEM FROM OUR HANDS!

    Buy a Playstation 2 if you want, but my vote against this sort of practise lies in the fact that I most certainly will not.

    "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
  • What we need to do is identify what rights we have as consumers (and, no, not the right to pirate), then pressure our governments to create a law that forces RIAA, MPAA, M$, and other Copyright-based companies to protect our fair-use rights!

    I agree with you, however, many people are of the opinion that there is no way to win in the legal system. The big companies basically own the U.S. government, although there are a few (very few) good people left to keep things from going into utter chaos. So, basically the laws are written by the whores of Sony, Microsoft, IBM, MPAA, etc. and the citizens are getting the shaft. The few of us that know we can make a difference lack the resources of these companies.

    However, I agree with you, although that has to be qualified. I think that we need to pressure our government to create fair laws to protect our rights from big companies. The only way to do this is if the majority of the people wake up and do what's right rather than blindly supporting Republicans and Democrats. We need new blood in our legal system. We need to wake up the public from their apathy. I think it's ok to hack stuff to use it fairly, but at the same time that should be secondary to making sure those in power understand that we have rights and they are not to infringe upon them.

    Unfortunately, in the crowd that is most technologically intelligent, we tend to think that we can ignore the government and it will go away just like our bosses at work. Instead, the government is more like a hyper child that just drank a 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew. We are the ones that control the government, not the other way around. Unfortunately, many of us end up doing like we do at work. When our boss asks for a stupid feature in a program we are making, we make it but find a way to get around it to work right. Other times we ignore that we were even asked to do something. However, in this case there are more consequences. The U.S. government thinks we are all very expendable, and most politicians would have no problem taking some money from a big company to make a law and proceed to put you in jail. Hacking for usage of pirating doesn't solve the problem, it only works as a temporary workaround, or could sometimes make things even worse.

  • Sorry good sir, but you are quite frankly an idiot. First off, I write network code. I know how easy it is to do this type of stuff. And yes, I have in fact done similar things in the past to get around some of the silly authentication.

    First off, you think I really give a fuck about my karma? Did you look at my user id? My karma bounces between 40-50 and I really could care less.

    why don't you learn who you are addressing before calling me an "ego-bloated /. user". You come from an .edu -- lets hope they can teach you some common sense.

    And yes, they are stupid folk. Most the population is stupid folk -- you just proved that as your response puts you in that class.

  • That is just when it gets fun. The authentication packets can obviously be detected (by the console and server) so you just run a replace filter on the router that detects these packets and replaces the information. Good kernel hacking going on there. It'd be a fun project to work on, if I had more time I would definitely jump on board if this came to reality.
    1. People will be annoyed they need a network connection.
    2. Various network, ISP, and line failures will make people more annoyed. They will remember the days of plunk-and-play.
    3. Someone will crack the protection anyway.
    4. Annoyed people will gladly use cracked games.
    5. Sony will have to start over with another system to annoy people.

      When any solution creates more problems than the problem, it's not a solution.
  • So if all the new games are only allowed to play on one console, how am I goign to rent a game to decide whether or not to buy it?
  • You're missing the point:

    Can't rent games

    Can't play your game at a friends house on their PS2

    If someone steals your PS2 or it breaks, the games break

    Need a net connection to play

    Sony's servers need to be up to play

    Can't sell your used games

    Sony can shut your game off if they remove it from their server (sorry, only PS3 games supported)

    Every one of these affect people that have LEGITIMATELY paid for their software. It kills the Doctrine of First Sale, as well as much of Fair Use.

    If this story is true, I would like to see the execs at Sony take a long walk off a short pier, preferably in an active volcano

  • ...but this is stupid. If I can't trade games with my friends, then screw this. I'll just go out and buy a DVD player and keep buying used games for my PS1.

  • (Granted, it's stupid to have a console in a car, there is a certain cool factor in doing it)

    Ah, there speaks a man who's never had to drive fourteen hours in a car containing children :)

    --
  • "Hey, this also means that these games CAN'T BE RENTED"

    Game rentals are safe. Game companies make too much money from them. Some game companies have even done special games that could ONLY be rented to promote game rentals.

    What this really does in ensure that only games designated for rental can be used on multiple PS2s. These games will never be sold to the public, only to rental chains, and regular games will only be sold via retail. This will accomplish two things:
    - First, game companies will be able to track all rentals, and make sure that they get a cut for each one.
    - Second, it will further the efforts of large rental chains to destroy small businesses. By integrating a system of charge per rental, they cut into the profit margins of the stores, both by taking a cut, and hitting the stores with the costs of working within the system. Of course, if the game companies have any sense, they will start their own rental chains, keep all of the money, and not sell games to rental chains at all.
  • While network connections, etc are common these days, I do not want to be **required** to connect my playstation to a network.


    Especially considering I do most of my game playing when my cable modem is out...
  • Great, so I guess you can't take some of your favorite games over to your friend's house without lugging your own PS2 over to his house as well. Thanks for that wonderful pain in the arse Sony! Plus I'm sure there will be plenty of cracks that come out soon to circumvent this anyways. What's the point?!
  • Does anyone think this'll prevent the general population from wanting to get a PS2 later this year? And what about /. users? Will you not buy these DNA-S games? I'm wondering if this plan will hurt Sony.
  • Hey, this also means that these games CAN'T BE RENTED

    I can't believe no one's stumbled on this yet. Of course they can be rented. You know how they're gonna do it? An affiliation with the major rental chains (*cough* Blockbuster *cough*) will let those serials be used--and Sony will get a cut from each rental.

    This is the same formula used in Video Stores across the country with movie studios. You get say 30 copies of Meet the Parents on VHS. You don't pay the $70 bucks a wack for them, as you normally would, instead you simply pay $20--but, Universal gets their cut. A video renting program must be installed and used on your computer that keeps track of when each tape was rented, therefore detailing the amount that has to be reimbursed to the studio (it communicates with a host via modem at the end of each day). After so many weeks, when the title isn't as hot and you have all these copies sitting around not doing anything, you send the unused ones back. But, those that are left on your shelves still cost you, but now only a lesser fee for each time they're rented.

    The video game scheme would work the same way, with everyone getting their cut.

    Never deny the power of profit.

  • Until somebody has a network sniffer on there, has cracked their encryption - or modified the hardware itself - and/or is selling a little black box to verify your games, or even better yet, has released linux software to do it for them. Time to save those old machines :). I'm waiting for a resurgance of "dongles" and the like for consoles.. heh

    Alternatively to that, I guess you could always copy the playstation CD/DVD, and then use a software hack like the "nocd" fixes that are becoming common for games in the PC world.

    Discs get broken and scratched! This isn't a made up problem .. if I drop $50 on a game, I better have the ability to store the original someplace safe.

  • Hopefully soon everyone will just get all this authentication silliness out of the way and just test the DNA of the person turning on the console. If you bought the game / console, you get to play. Otherwise it poisons you and you die a horrible death. I wouldn't fuck with trying to reverse engineer that system.

  • Anyone who knows anyone with a Sega Dreamcast can tell you very quickly why Sega was brutalized on that system : Piracy. Of course with the DVD of the PS2 it's less likely (at least for the next short while) but if the games can be installed on a harddrive it will become prevelant.

    Not that I wouldn't find this tactic incredibly annoying, but if you don't like it you don't have to buy one. These companies take multibillion dollar hits on these systems because the systems are subsidized by game sales. When piracy becomes so commonplace that Joe Average has a library of duped games they have to find alternatives.

    yafla! [yafla.com]

  • Online authentication is not just a way to verify software authenticity, it also allows Sony one more way to invade our lives and track what we do. This is an incredible way to monitor users and build demographic databases. Allow me to explain why.

    The system will require registration to use. Period. They will come up with a million BS reasons to support it, such as tracking attempts to play copies.

    The registration will give them the following information about the user:
    - Name
    - Address
    - Email account (Required so that they can send you a random password of course.)
    - Telephone number (For immediate contact in case of suspected fraud on your account.)
    - Age (They are required by law to ask, so that at least kids under the age of thirteen are not exploited like this.).

    This information can then all be linked backed to credit databases and advertising profiles to produce more information, allowing Sony to cross reference a user's buying, playing, and viewing habits. They will be able to figure out when you get paid, and use that as a basis for when to send you spam for a sequel to the game that you played for 200+ hours last year. Sony will generate a list of your favorite movies, and sell it to the MPAA, who will in turn allow movie companies to use the data to spam you with ads for like movies.

    Those of course are the nice uses.

    What happens when someone else wants to know what you do, what you watch? If someone is accused of a sex crime, the government will be able to subpeona your logs to see if you were watching kinky DVDs. After a school shooting, the state could use gameplay records to state that the offender learned to kill from video games, and prove it by producing records of all the games he played. A wife could divorce her husband on the grounds that he ignores her to play games all the time, and she could subpeona the records as proof.

    I have a Playstation 2 now, and I love it, but I have a feeling that I might not be purchasing too many future releases.
  • While Sony may indeed be testing such a system, there will be absolutely no major developer support for this type of setup for the PS2. The real danger is something like this becoming a fixture in the PS3 or future gaming consoles.

    The reason why it wont fly with the PS2 is simple -- the PS2 doesn't ship with any network options. Sure, Sony is going to add a HD and network adapter in the future, but historically such add-ons are purchased by a VAST MINORITY of total console owners. If its not supported in the base config, developers are not going to make it a requirement for using their software because that will drastically reduce their total potential market.

    There may be some exceptions..PS2 equiv games of Phantasy Star Online (can you say Everquest: Console Edition?) may adopt the system..but the vast majority of games will not.

  • That's very interesting. I don't really have a problem with THAT aspect of it, except that it seems like it may cut the "mop and pop" video stores out of the equation.

    Josh Sisk
  • And requiring the CD is just a royal pain in the ass sometimes. I use the NoCD patch for Microsft's Age of Kings: The Conquerors. I own the game, but my computer here at home takes about 2 minutes to authenticate the CD and launch. With the NO-CD patch, it takes about 5 seconds.

    I also used it to install the game on my work computer, for those days when I'm feeling a little bored. I never know when I'm going to want to play it, and don't feel like carrying the CD back and forth each day.

    At the risk of sounding like a Microsoft fan, this authentication mess with Sony only provides more incentive for people to buy an X-Box from MSFT.
    ---
  • Uh... just for my personal edification...

    I'm assuming the point of authenticating a Q3 copy has more to do with making sure nobody's cheating (remember, the source is GPL) and less to do with actual copy protection? If not, how in the hell do they get away with it?

    /Brian

  • What's next? (Score:3)

    by canning ( 228134 ) on Monday March 12, 2001 @07:25AM (#369393) Homepage
    If the PS2 encounters a false ser# one of the following will happen.
    • mechanical arms emerge from the front of the console cuff you and dial the local police department.
    • erases all the information on every memory card within 50 yards.
    • calls your Mom.

  • Urm, anyone else have problems with games which will only work on one console? What happens if your PS/2 breaks/gets stolen/has your 3 year-old put cornflakes in it? You then have a very expensive frisbee....

    It will also kill the second user market for games, but then, that's probably what they want...
    --

  • Just like that. How do we convince the VCs to lend us the several billion marketing budget? The answer is not to buy, but consumers don't have full access to information - if they did Intel PCs would have never taken off in the first place, never mind Windows NT.
  • How do you know they won't? What's to stop them? Only not buying the console will absolutely ensure that this won't happen, so I'm not having one.
  • Tribes 2 is going to use central authentication, but before the game load's there is a sort of community design. It has it's own IRC client, Email, News page, discussion board, all of which are tied to your account and the "tribal membership" of your account. To play a lan game or single player game won't require you to authenticate, just playing multiplayer over the internet.
    treke
  • Of course Quake 3 authenticates your unique key and nobody's bitching about that (much)...

    The key difference is that a pure multiplayer game (like Quake3 or Phantasy Star Online) will always have the network connection active and so the validation is no big deal. (As long as you don't want to go online, one can pirate Q3A all day long) But if Sony actually thinks people will go online solely to validate a purely offline game, they're in for a rude shock.

    I thought Sony was finished with botching up the PS2, but they've proven me wrong yet again.

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