Tribes2 and Alpha Centauri for Linux 261
Time Doctor writes: "Wow, Tribes 2 and Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri are actually shipping from Loki next week :-)
Faith has brought Linux Gamers two new games, and if sales are good, more will come. Sure we had some sad news today about the Indrema, but, keep hope alive! (thanks to Linux Games for the tip)."
Re:Alpha Centauri - what was the holdup? (Score:1)
Guess they either (a) found a different packaging solution, or (hopefully!) (b) got some money!
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:1)
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:1)
- Civ:CTP -- 1 month behind
- Railroad Tycoon 2: Gold Edition: 2 weeks behind Windows release of Gold Edition
- Quake 3: simo if you preordered the CD, 3 weeks if you waited for the tins
- SC3U: 3 months
- Tribes 2: 1 month (3 weeks?)
Now. Some of the other titles (Descent 3, Myth 2) were a bit older, but GEEZ. That's a decent track record. It's better than the other companies in this market...Re:WARNING: TRIBES 2 (Score:1)
Crossplatform libraries (Score:1)
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:1)
I do plan to buy SMAC and SC3K, and maybe Tribes if my 'doze using friends are into that. Hopefully Tribes is one of those games that can be played w/the 'doze version.
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:1)
I'm guessing for a $45 game... $20 to the retail store, including shipping it there... $6 for packaging & book & CD, $10 for royalties to the 'doze producer of the game. That leaves... $9.
Yikes I hope I'm off somewhere. Anyone have any real numbers or more educated guesses?
And what happens when the game starts selling for under $20? Who looses the most
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:2)
And I fail to understand why games cease to be 'great' ast time passes. Heck, Pac-Man and Centipede are still great games! Not as in-depth as today's games, sure, but they're still great for what they are.
And I for one really want to see Linux replace Windows as the de-facto desktop OS. This is an absolutely necessary step for that to happen. Sure, it would be much better if all games were released concurrently on both platforms. And some are, or nearly so. But late is better than never.
Cool! Is it best for Loki to buy direct from them? (Score:2)
I know it's good to show resellers that there's an interest in Linux games, but as another post mentioned, if they only sell 1000-2000 copies per game, Loki really needs as much money as they can get.
Last, Best, Hope... (Score:4)
In short, holding off Linux game purchases because the releases are not timely (i.e., on par with Windows) or cheap will ensure that they will always be neither.
Btw, as has been stated elsewhere on this story, Linux Tribes 2 is being released only 2 weeks after the Win32 version, which is hardly a significant period of time.
Re:Game Ports (Score:1)
Three guesses.
Still don't know? It's Microsoft. Microsoft will NEVER actually let any game with their name all over it be ported to Linux. Trust me.
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Re:Game Ports (Score:1)
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Re:Piracy (Score:1)
Pleasant surprises aren't entirely impossible.
Besides, there is no dishonor inherent with purchasing with more than just your immediate utility in mind.
Re:Games That Play Better Under Linux (Was: Re:Tri (Score:1)
Re:Nope, because they chose wrong games to release (Score:1)
It is infact the real thing.
Re:loki are idiotzz (Score:1)
Many of us object to wasting our money on crap, only to be forced into wasting more money on the same crap next year. In order for your claim to be true, there would have to be some quality wares to draw a comparison on.
Most consumer software (games or not) is simply crap. Game companies quite often shove games out the door prematurely depending on that 1st patch to fix things afterwards.
Linux took of not just because it was cheap and reliable. It also happened to support common consumer PC hardware before any of it's payware competitors did (Next, Sun).
It does one no good to BUY a $400 copy of NeXTstep if it won't even support your HD controller or CDROM drive.
Re:Shame Tribes2 is 3D (Score:1)
Game binaries installed under Redhat for my Vodoo2 "just work" as does newer stuff like Heavy Gear 2.
Even when I was running the V2 & V3 it wasn't any of the things you describe it as.
Re:Shame Tribes2 is 3D (Score:1)
Even the V2 performed adequately back in the day. Installation (using 3dfx's own instructions and rpms) were also a breeze. The only "interesting" part of the process was making that little 3dfx device module.
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:2)
Who cares what other people think? Linux will still be there. People who care will still write code for it. Linux will continue to get better. Anyone who doesn't use it is losing out but it's their loss, not yours.
Leave well enough alone. I want games. I don't have Windows at all, and I don't even have very modern hardware (still using a celeron 1), so I don't care if I have to play older games. In fact I prefer it. I'd rather get the cream of the crop than have to wade through the mountains of shit, like the Windows gamers have to do.
Huzzah for Loki. I've bought all your releases so far and I'm buying the next two right now.
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:2)
Who said anything about keeping it to myself? The whole point of Linux is that everyone can use it, share it, enjoy it, participate.
If they choose not to participate, then it is THEIR LOSS. But that doesn't affect me. Drivers? I won't get *less* drivers if they don't want to join in. You seem to believe not having something is a loss, even though you didn't have that same thing before! That's not a loss: that's called a break-even situation.
So let the "Linux is a toy" people enjoy their brief feelings of superiority. In 12 months time half of them will probably be using Linux. In 24 months time they'll be wondering how they got by with the crap they used before.
Tribes 2: No Mac version, plenty of PC excuses (Score:4)
Now, fast forward to Tribes 2, which was initially heralded as a Windows/Mac simultaneous release. The Mac version was quietly cancelled last year. The PC version just came out two weeks ago... and large numbers of users complained when it crashed frequently. The release was really only beta-quality, and a handful of patches appeared over the next few days and nights to hastily fix the worst problems.
On the in-game news board, Sierra actually posted an apology for the poor quality of the initial release, but they tried to defend themselves by pointing out the various hardware configurations they had to code for:
And thus they said they had to test over 75,000 different hardware configurations, so it's inevitable there would be some problems. (Not to mention that they wrote it for OpenGL and for Direct3D!) They end their apology by saying: "So now you can understand why developers are so interested in the Xbox."
I just have to point out that if Sierra had released the game on the Mac first, they would only have had to write it to support OpenGL and InputSprockets, which every Mac ships with support for out-of-the-box. Once they were sure the engine was solid, it would have been much easier at that point to work on the Windows port.
Sure, it would have postponed their Windows profits to release on the Mac first... but how much money has Sierra already lost through returns by people who couldn't get the game to run, through having to pay a support staff to handle the complaints and a dev team to work on patches ASAP, and through the bad word-of-mouth that the game's quality is terrible?
(Of course, this is the same Sierra which refused to release an almost-completed Mac Half-Life, and which cancelled the Babylon 5 game for which special video had been shot with the original series actors. Maybe money grows off trees in their land.)
Get the games gang! (Score:2)
Suffice it to say, I'm buying it.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Does the Market want Linux Games ? Not really.. (Score:2)
Time and again the general public has voted with its wallets and bought Windows ME as a games platform or a playstation/dreamcast etc.
Reality check: More games are available for Windows than for linux. This is because (until recently) the interest in linux gaming has been fairly small - only recently has linux started taking a place on desktop machines, and thus only recently has there been much demand for games to run under linux. Taking that headstart into account, along with the fact that (through illegal means) MS has the majority of desktops cornered - it's tough to buy a machine from a major vendor WITHOUT Windows (note: tough, not impossible) - it's only natural that support for gaming APIs would be rather small at the moment. Loki has been doing a phenomenal job of getting some great games running under linux - I suggest you take a look.
Why do Linux people continue with the fantasy that their operating system is anything other than a tool for elitist, arrogant techies (nost of whom long for the days when computers were hard to use, and resent Microsoft for making computers easy for the man in the street).
I could go on...
I also disagree with you about MS "making it easy" for people. Reality check: MS is only perceived as "easy" because everyone uses it. If your first experience with a computer is MS Windows - that's what will seem easy to you 2 years down the road. If your first experience was a *nix desktop, 2 years down the road THAT would seem easy to you. It's all a matter of perspective.
The Market has spoken, and it has said DirectX. Loud and clear, the message of the market is OpenGL sucks, DirectX rules. (I am speaking in simplistic terms here so the less intelligent slashdot morons can understand me).
One word: Bull.
To elaborate, "the market" only shows a strong showing for DirectX (a proprietary MS API) because Windows (a proprietary MS OS) has a vastly larger installation base (on desktops) than anything else right now. Naturally, more games will be available for it - and as a game developer, you'd be silly not to take advantage of any useful API that your host OS offers. That being said, many development houses are starting to see that there are better ways of doing graphics than DirectX. Take Baldur's Gate II for example - it uses OpenGL for graphics, but also makes use of DirectX for sound and other things. It's a case of using the best tool in your current toolkit for the job at hand. If your toolkit is MS Windows, then DirectX is in there, and can be used. Under linux, it's doubtful that you'll see support for a closed, proprietary API designed for an architecturally dissimilar OS. What you might see is a similar API developed in an open fashion (IE: done the "linux way") - but these things take time, and VERY few people are paid to do this stuff full-time. So...it can take a while. Linux is definitely capable of being as good of a gaming host OS as Windows - it just requires that developers spend the time to develop for it, and marketers to realize that there IS indeed a gaming market out there that WANTS to buy linux games. The availibility of dual-boot, however, stymies this a bit when developers release for Windows first -- as many people who would buy the linux version instead buy the Windows version, simply because it is available first.
Fact: Linux cannot and will not succeed in the games market. Period. Until it has good support for DirectX.
Reality check: DirectX is an API for Windows. Linux and Windows are dissimilar architecturally, so you're not going to see "DirectX for linux" anytime soon.
This, of course, isn't stopping Loki from porting games to linux. As linux gaming matures, I'm sure we WILL see a standardized API for direct system calls to hardware coalesce - it may not be there right now - but give it some time - linux gaming is still fairly new. Let Loki, id, and the other linux-gaming-friendly companies get some more games out, and start getting SIMULTANEOUS releases of games - then you'll start to see the market for linux games jump - and THEN you'll start seeing things like standardized APIs get discussed.
Unfortunately this will never happen because of the linux crowds pathological jealousy and hatred of Microsoft. Nonetheless it is the ONLY way that Linux is ever likely to get any real games support.
The linux crowd simply sees beyond the wool that's been pulled over your eyes. Microsoft has illegally forced it's grossly inferior product into a position of dominance - and has been supported by the government practically every step of the way. Do you think it's in Microsoft's best interests to EVER open the DirectX API, such that a port could even be conceived? No. Microsoft is in the business of making money. It's something they're very good at. They're conspiring with other large corporate interests (RIAA, MPAA, etc...) to strip your rights away. They want to make you RENT your OS, and the apps that run on it. They don't want you to have a choice.
Then again, I guess everything I've just said is completely irrational, isn't it?
Do us a favor, and crawl back under your bridge where it's dark and safe. Cuddle up with your "Tickle-Me-Steve-Ballmer" and your "Sleep-n-Snore-Bill-Gates", and stop spreading groundless FUD.
I, of course, am prone to being completely wrong.
Coupla things... (Score:1)
If Sierra wanted, they could contract the mac port to Aspyr (who did Deus Ex, Sims, IIRC Unreal, etc)...
Your Working Boy,
- Otis (GAIM: OtisWild)
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:2)
I've never heard of someone complaining of the obtuseness of OpenGL or SDL and praising DirectX's ease-of-use. I have heard the opposite, from the likes of John Carmack. I haven't found OGL or SDL to be non-straightforward. Clearly there is a level of opinion involved, but if which API someone finds more straightforward is based solely on personal preference, then you can't claim either is superior across the board.
and they allways work as predicted
I assume you mean DX always works as predicted, even though your wording would indicate that clause applied to Linux's API's.
Anyway, that is unsubstantiated, and contrary with experience. Are you really going to expect me to believe that DirectX always does what is expected, and that SDL/OpenGL frequently do not?
The large number of Linux distributions confuses and potentially compromise compatibility.
Ya know, just once I want to get into one of these discussions without hearing an argument that's 5 years old. The distribution issue has demonstrably not been a significant issue. I guess the keyword here is "potentially". Yeah, there is a non-0 probability of compatability problems. Then again there is a non-0 probability of compatability problems between win9x versions (including service pack numbers), and a significant probability of problems between NT and 9x. But I haven't seen vendors getting "confused" about that.
This is a huge FUD argument, and I'm dissapointed you felt it necessary to resort to it.
DX supports most, if not all, top of the bill hardware, whereas Linux hw-drivers will usually lag a little. The potential user base is much larger,
A good point. The reason DX keeps up is because the hw vendors make drivers for it (because of larger user base). As linux market share increases, the vendors will begin to target linux more (witness Nvidia), and that disparity should decrease and eventually vanish. Adopting DirectX now wouldn't help, though, since the drivers would still have to be made to work under Linux. Remember, DX is an interface to drivers, not the other way around.
windows games rarely need (debug) patches afterwards, free or not.
This is a joke, right? I'm not sure if I should argue, or just laugh.
Anyway, since my roomate is a heavy player of Win games, I know for a fact that this is BS. And having seen the number of patches released because of problems with DirectX, I conclude your earlier point about DX always "doing what it is supposed to" is also BS.
You may not like what is, but that`s not a reason to kill a man`s opinion.
I'm not killing his opinion, I'm pointing out the fallacies in his logic. I don't dislike his opinion on DX, I just disagree (i dislike his opinion of the community, but that's because it is an invention). If he can't back up his conclusion with reasonable arguments, then perhaps he's just wrong. It is possible to be wrong.
There are reasons why Linux could use DirectX, such as the prevalence of Windows games that use it. Everyone knows Linux is a small market (for now, I hope). Most of the other arguments made by him and you are either unsubstantiated or outright wrong.
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:4)
Except for that which doesn't.
Even consoles are getting it, like the XBox.
Haha. XBox is 1) made by MS, who by chance also makes DirectX and 2) basically a PC in a pretty box. Try again when PS2 uses DirectX.
Games that don't use it, such as WuakeIII, are very dificult to install.
What are you talking about? DirectX has nothing to do with installing (other than every game wants you to install DirectX, even if you already have it)? InstallShield works no matter what, and if you'd ever used Loki's installer, you'd know they aren't any different.
You people need to buy things.
You need to grab a clue about the "people" you're talking about. Seriously, you sound like a microserf from 1996 talking about us "longhairs who want everything for free".
Normal people=market.
Wow, almost a point. Yeah, Linux won't be a gaming platform until it gets bigger market share. How +1, insightful.
12 month old crap like what is being touted here
Like Tribes2? Damn, if you've had it for 12 months, why have you been holding out?
I suspect I will be flamed and modded down for this, but it is the truth.
Yeah, if "truth" means FUD based on other 5-year old FUD.
Re:tribes was never any good. (Score:1)
http://www.gamespy.com/stats/ [gamespy.com]
Moderators on crack? (Score:1)
The announcement of news://loki.games.smac (Score:1)
Subject: It's Play Time: SMAC to Ship Next Week!
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:47:28 -0700
From: Kayt Sorhaindo
Organization: Loki Software, Inc.
Newsgroups: loki.games.smac
IT'S PLAY TIME
Not one, but TWO Linux games will ship next week from Loki Software,
Inc.
Tribes 2 will be HOT on the heals of the Windows release by Sierra
On-Line, and the long-awaited Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Planetary Pack
by Firaxis will also make its Linux debut.
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Planetary Pack will ship to resellers on
Monday, April 16, with the low MSRP of $29.95. Tribes 2 will follow suit
on Wednesday, April 18, with an MSRP of $49.95.
Can't resist both of these exciting games? Take advantage of a
promotional bundle and receive both for the special price of $59.95.
This offer is available directly from Loki and from select resellers.
[Note that the Loki webstore will not be updated for another 48 hours
with this new information]
Look for these products at your favorite online reseller.
For more information visit www.lokigames.com.
Enjoy!
- Loki Software, Inc.
Now you have pissed me off. (Score:1)
Your attitude is infuriating. It is frankly seriously fucked that a shifting sea of libraries, versions of X, kernels, and the like make Linux support of any given game something of a crap shoot. Read me lips and read them well: this situation is broken and the situation in Windows is far better.
This is only true of the game sector. My Linux machine serves primarily as a SOHO server and development environment, and works really well for that. As a gaming platform, Linux is a bloody mess, and I frankly expect anyone who tries to sell it as one to fail horribly until the situation stabilizes - and there's no reason to believe that it will.
Re:WARNING: TRIBES 2 (Score:1)
A year from now, the Wall Street Journal will be writing about the severe slowdown of Linux and other open source projects caused by Tribes 2. Is that what you're telling us?
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
Come out with Chaos Gate, Counter-Strike, Rogue Spear, and Swat 3, then we'll talk.
Just come out with Counter-Strike and Rogue spear, and I'll live without Chaos Gate and Swat 3.
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Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
Thanks, but I prefer games that don't think SPAS means "Special Purpose Airsoft Shotgun", which the Tactical-Ops web page has said for at least six months.
(I assume you meant Tactical-Ops, not Tac-Ops, which is an old DOS wargame.)
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Re:$9.99 Loki Games at EBGames.com (Score:1)
Re:Loki is on crack (Score:1)
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:1)
The only warning I would give you is that alot of the games Loki released are extremely addictive. =)
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:1)
Re:Yes, I *will* buy it, but you can do more. (Score:1)
In the example for UT the binaries are avalible for download, I am not going to buy Deus Ex for Linux because I have already finished it, there is no replay value in it for me. (I finished it a few times already.)
I have considered purchasing the game a second time however. What I *DO* do is wait to buy a game if there is an announcement that there will be a Linux version. If this is the case, I will wait. If not, and I want the game? I buy it. (And do the reg-card thing)
Yes, I *will* buy it, but you can do more. (Score:5)
I am not going to bitch about that though, I bought the Linux version because I believe in supporting Linux.
When I purchased Unreal Tournament, there was no official Linux version. I sent my registration card back to Epic, and scrawled across the top in bright red ink were the words: "PURCHASED FOR USE WITH LINUX", lo and behold, there is official support from Loki for UT now.
I bought Deus Ex the instant it hit the shelves (I own anything and everything to do with Warren Spector), I did the same with this, sending the registration card to Edios with the same words on it.
Next thing I know there is a announcement about Deus Ex for Linux. Unfortunatly I had already finished Deus Ex. =( I would have waited had I known.
I knew Tribes 2 was coming out for Linux. That is why I did not buy the Windows version. I knew the Linux version would eventually come. My friend went into EB World and asked about the Linux version of Tribes 2, and he got a scoff from the sales person, "Linux? Who uses that? No, we don't carry any Linux software." My friend bought the Windows version (and now has a Linux server running) and the salesperson said "Heh, still gonna buy the Windows version eh?"
My friend responded "Yeah, I guess I don't have a CHOICE."
Just to be a bastard (Yeah, I have read the Advocacy how-to) I went into that EB World, picked up Tribes 2, and said "Cool! Tribes 2!" (With the same sales person next to me) I made a pretense of looking at the side of the box and then said, "Hmmm, it mentions the Linux server here on the side of the box, but nothing about the Linux client." He got smug again and said "Nah, we don't carry and Linux games."
I said "Oh, too bad, guess I will have to buy my games off of the internet then... bye." (Most of the local LUG is going to go do this to EB World...
Probably not the best solution, I don't know if I would reccomend that one...
So, yes, I buy Linux versions of software whenever it is avalible, and I make it known that I want more Linux software avaliable. My friend Todd who purchased Tribes 2 at EB World will probably play the game under both Windows and Linux, and certanly run the server on Linux, but he won't wait for the Linux versions of games, and he certanly won't pay more for them.
I can't say as I blame him really. It is not fair that we have to wait longer, its even less fair that the same software should cost more for Linux. So, if you can't be bothered to actually buy a Linux version of a game, fill out the registration card (Marketers for software companies take these *VERY* seriously, I know the ones at my work do!) and write in big bold letters "PURCHASED FOR USE WITH LINUX."
If you can't vote with your dollars (which is the best idea) then vote with the registration cards. It makes a huge difference.
How? (Score:2)
This is dangerously close to the too-good-to-be-true area. What's the deal with these guys? Are they selling at a loss, or pirates, or what?
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Re:Excellent! (Score:2)
IMHO you're wasting your time looking there. Linux games are like heavy metal CDs: you won't find anything decent in a retail store. Thank Yog for online shops!
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Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:3)
2) What software is available for Linux? Well, there's WordPerfect Office 2000 and Oracle 8i, to name a couple of fairly heavy-duty apps. Also, IBM DB2 and ViaVoice. Then of course there are the thousands of 'minor' applications like Blender and the GIMP. True, none of those are the 'heavyweight' office automation package (I assume you mean MS Office), but they are some pretty major applications.
Another way of looking at this is that it would be better for Linux to have -some- high-visibility apps than none, even if they are a little older.
Re:Who waited? (Score:2)
Re:Ugh, Tribes 2... A Triber's experience. (Score:2)
So, personally, I think you have some machine problems that need to be addressed if you can't even install the game correctly.
Tribes2 (Score:2)
AC will run on your system (Score:2)
Eric
Re:One more reason this game is important... (Score:3)
Big if.
> and many people playtest the engine
Notice that its still being debugged after its released. People call it good for a beta.
>and submit bug reports and the folks at Tribes2 keep on top of it,
They seem to be doing so too. Every day seems like a new patch day.
> you might see a whole slew of mods that may rival Half-Life's in terms of quality, only this time on the Linux desktop.
Er... no. HalfLife is a strange creature. Alot of companies would die to have that sort of community support but they can't seem to replicate it. Look at Quake3. Its available for Linux and modable, but nothing that noteworthy which gets close to TFC/CS is out yet.
Hard to see (Score:2)
Re:Yes, I *will* buy it, but you can do more. (Score:2)
--
Game Performance (FWIW) (Score:2)
Alpha Centauri Net Play (Score:2)
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
What about network multiplay? (Score:2)
OpenGL can't assure multiplay. Games don't pass polygons to each other during play, they send data about actions and unit positions. How different platforms render that data on screen is irrelevant, as long as the results are consistent.
For compatible play you need a compatible API such as OpenPlay [apple.com] or SDL_Net [libsdl.org] (personally, I'd like to see those two efforts merge in some way).
What network multiplay API did Loki use? Are their games compatible with either DirectPlay (Win) or NetSprockets (Mac)?
WARNING: TRIBES 2 (Score:4)
There are lots of good reviews about Tribes 2 (for Microsoft and Linux alike), so I won't touch on the game here (go read them!)
Seriously, the only thing that is a draw back in this game is the hardware needed to play it (it's just as bad - if not worse - on Microsoft). But if you've been looking for an excuse or good time to upgrade your system (3D card specifically), this is definately it.
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:3)
Here we've got the chicken and the egg problem. You need to get people to use the OS to get companies to make apps/games, but you need apps/games to get people to use the OS. Loki's really sticking their neck out (I would think - don't really know what sales are like) by selling Linux versions of games that are already available on Windows. Nevertheless, it's a good thing they are, because if Tribes2 sells well other companies will start to look at Linux as a potential platform as well.
I'd definetly consider buying Tribes2 for Linux - if I could get it at Electronics Boutique, so I could return it in the event that it doesn't work on my machine. euroderf's right on the DirectX thing. I've only tried installing demos on Linux because the risk of going out and buying it is too great at the moment.
It alkso needs new games, not 12 month old crap like what is being touted here.
Didn't Tribes2 just come out like a week or two ago? I think Loki's done a pretty good job on that one! Alpha Centauri may be a different story, but I choose to look at it as glass-half-full.
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
Now, what I would really like to be able to do is buy a hybrid game. I would pay extra for a game which I could run on both platforms.
Unfortunately, Loki is not able to provide this as the original game developer does not want to have to compete with their own game. So, Loki has to provide a Linux-only port, if they provide a separate product. And they have to provide a separate product, because otherwise there is no way to know how many people are playing the Linux version, and thus how much Loki should be paid.
Ideally, the original game developers would do the port. In order for this to be realistic, however, we need to set up an environment where porting a game requires no more than a re-compile. Unfortunately, Microsoft has made this very hard (intentionally or not) with their Win32 and DirectX API's, which can't reasonably be supported on other platforms.
What we need is a complete OS abstraction layer on which people can build platform independent software. There have been many efforts to do this (SDL, etc.), but these have mostly been fairly specialized, which means you usually need several different libraries to wrap all of the OS-specific functionality you use. Chances are that each library will have different supported platforms and other conflicting requirements. Sorting these out can be just as much of a pain as manually porting your code.
It's unfortunate that C and C++ don't have a standard API comparable to Java's. Not that I like Java, but...
Uhh... what were we talking about again?
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"new" games? (Score:2)
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
Thanks. Sorry you're post got modded down as a Troll. That was pretty lame.
But Will You Buy It? (Score:4)
But I'm kind of wondering how many of these people will actually buy the Linux version of these games? It seems like everyone wants someone else to buy the games. Even though I really want to see Linux succeed as a gaming platform, I seriously doubt I'll buy either of these. Usually if I want to play a game, I'll hop on my Windows box. In my experience, its been much easier to get something to work on my Windows box than on a Linux box.
I know that Linux is in a Catch 22 where games won't succeed until people buy them, but no one will buy them until lots of games come out. I wish I could say that I would buy one of these ports to support Loki. But honestly, I know I won't. And I'm pretty sure few Slashdot readers will. I just hope that in a few years, I'll be able to change my stance and say that getting a game to work on my Linux box is just as easy as my PC.
Anyone else feel the same way?
Yes, I will (Score:2)
1. It must be a game that I am interested in already. I'm not going to buy Railroad Tycoon, just because it's on Linux.
2. I must come out before I buy it for Windows. I will not pay twice for the same game, and I will not wait indefinately for a Linux port.
However, Tribes 2 meets BOTH of those criteria, and so I will buy it this weekend. Hooray for Loki! May there be many more Linux games for me to buy.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
So what happens for the next game? (Score:2)
The rise in Linux gaming should mirror the rise in Linux usage. If we try to rush this process, we may end up causing Linux gaming even more harm, because, as they say, once bitten twice shy. Gaming companies will be less likely to port if they launch a major release expecting the same kinds of figures as Tribes 2, and don't get it.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
I don't feel the same way. (Score:2)
I think Quake3 and MythII work great on my Debian box...wasn't that hard to install.
I, for one, am going to stop by fryes in LA in a couple weeks and buy TWO Loki Linux games. At the bottom end, they're $25.00!! How much is programming freedom worth to you?
Being proactive for Linux is very important right now. I donate to FSF and EFF as well.
If you don't use or like Linux, don't buy the games. But if you're a crazy programmer, or think Linux is pretty cool, help Loki and Linux provide a real alternative to Windows -- buy Linux!!
Piracy (Score:3)
-Brian
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:3)
I do not play that many games. Most of them are Windows only (e.g. Black and White) and so when something I really enjoy is available in Linux, it is worth it to me to purchase.
Besides, I seem to be reinstalling my Microsoft operating systems once every 4 - 8 weeks while my Linux install is completely stable.
For what it is worth, if a game came out for both Windows and Linux at the same time and played pretty much the same, I'd rather buy the Linux version than the Windows version.
I, of course, do not claim to represent even a significant minority. But hey, I represent me (most of the time).
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Re:Tribes 2 Ported To Get Servers Not Gamers (Score:2)
Linux performance is about equal to windows on just about everyone's account.
it's just that people are used to playing games on windows because there aren't enough linux games, and there aren't enough linux games because people are used to playing games on windows.
________
Re:Last, Best, Hope... (Score:2)
________
This is a big deal. (Score:4)
This is a big deal for linux gaming. This time you have to either commit to buying the linux version, or stick to playing on windows only. (To help with the choice, the Linux version is reported to run BETTER than the win version by the people who tested it and have played both.)
If Tribes 2 fails on Linux (and there's a fair chance it may) we may have missed the last effort of this level to bring Blockbuster games to our OS at the same time as win players, and the ONLY way to make sure companies have a reason to release Linux games is to back up our talk with our cash. We've all said that Linux has a market that game developers shouldn't ignore, but this is the point where we need to put up or shut up, because the free ride is over, and each of us has to make a choice, the results of which will impact every future title.
If you can't tell, I'm afraid of what the future of big-name gaming on Linux will be unless companies stop losing money on ports.
oh, and please check out the linux tribes website too...
________
Go Buy Tribes2 for Linux. (Score:2)
Available from Tux Games (Score:2)
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:2)
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Re:How? (Score:3)
The home office also recently shipped new store layout plans regarding a linux section, so the store finally has a linux section. No Mac section, but a linux games section.
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
I don't have to reboot. I don't have to worry about the game installation causing my system to reboot into "safe mode". I don't have to reboot, again. I don't have to delete five AOL icons from my desktop, start menu, and system tray (or their GNOME equivalents). I don't have to reboot after I play the game. I don't have to reinstall the applications that the game broke by overwriting critical shared libraries. I don't have to reboot after the system crashes every second time I start the game if its the first thing I launch after I log in.
All I have to do, is read the !@#$!@#$ directions and type exactly what they say and the game works.
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Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
So, here's some not-so-anecdotal evidence:
- Linux games do not update any libraries on your Linux system. They REQUIRE libraries. Or they provide libraries which are for their own use, and reside only in their own directory hierarchy. Many Windows games will update system DLLs, as is the norm for Windows software. Updating system DLLs without great care results in a condition commonly referred to as "DLL Hell" on a Windows9x-based machine.
- Linux does not require rebooting for installation of new software. Windows often does.
- Any decent Linux software is either packaged or installs entirely in its own directory (or in appropriate unique
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Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:4)
Sure, I see the connection... its open source, and somehow if one thinks hard enough they can conjure up a relation to socialism, which obviously to us right-wingers-living-in-our-bomb-shelters might as well be communism spelled differently.
Well, I'm pretty far to the right... and I love Linux. Most of my friends are right-wing too... they also "get it" when it comes to Linux. I like Linux for the same reasons you do... it does what its told and doesn't fuck up every third time like certain other OSes. We evil right-wing capitalists lose a shitload of money when our servers don't run... so we like things that don't crash. We also don't like spending more money when a better solution requires spending less money.
No heavyweight applications?
As for heavyweight applications, well, Linux has plenty. How about Apache? (60% of the Web). Oracle? DB2? First-tier Java support? (I personally love this one, as its saved/made my company hundreds of thousands of dollars.)
Desktop apps, you say?....WordPerfect, CorelDraw, Gimp, KOffice, and StarOffice, Gnumeric, GNUCash... and more little utility apps (Napster clones, MP3 players, FTP clients, Clock applets, Solitaire/Minesweeper games, and NetLoad meters than a big horse can shit.
The only apps I need to make me never even want to look at a Windows box again are CounterStrike and a Mozilla 1.0 based Galeon. I'll put my Mom on it once we get to the point where all desktop-oriented tasks (including software installation/management and hardware configuration) can be done without using a shell. (And Ximian seems to be making some VERY NICE progress on both these fronts).
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I smell conspiracy!!! (Score:2)
This being Slashdot, I smell conspiracy! Microsoft is behind these ports. Seems unlikely...let me explain...
Deep in college campuses and cheap apartments across the country, programmers are working long into the night to get more and more advanced versions of Linux out. Undeterred by lack of support and Micro$oft FUD, nothing can stop them. Thta is until, they get a copy of Alpha Centauri...three months later, they are stil working far into the night, but this time it is to get enough artilerry together to biseige that one enemy coastal city...and hacking ther kernel is left far behind.
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:3)
There's already SDL [libsdl.org], which has been getting some nice, positive feedback as a good, cross-platform multimedia API. Note that Win32 is one of those platforms. Oh, and the API has nothing to do with the install. If you've ever tried a Loki game installation, they're really smooth and easy. Unreal Tournament installed just fine on my system.
3)Get some bloody normal people to use the OS.
And one of the best ways to lure users is to get some games for it. Loki porting some Windows games to Linux is a step in that direction. Face it, the general public is not even going to consider Linux as their OS until there's a good selection of games for it.
It alkso needs new games, not 12 month old crap like what is being touted here.
Neither game is crap, and only one of them is as old as you say. Tribes 2 has only been out for Windows for what, 1-2 weeks, tops?
Re:WARNING: TRIBES 2 (Score:2)
Alpha Centauri - what was the holdup? (Score:2)
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:2)
You may not like what is, but that`s not a reason to kill a man`s opinion.
The nature of the linux crowd simply is a bit difficult to target by game companies, because they don`t know if they need to play the good guy`s with the sensible OS approach (VERY small market), or the pinguin braindeads that fly up whenever somebody insults a word ending on ux (substantially bigger, but still small, market).
Piece.
Business model failure (Score:3)
Forget products
Forget distributions
Forget boxed games on the shelves
This is what will happen:
You donwload the installer of your favourite game, install the thing on your fancy OS of choice, start it up, enter your VISA/Mastercard number, and wait a few seconds for the game to contact servers. Once the necessay stuff is donwloaded, you can play. When you`re done, the game erases everything except savegames.
This will work, but only when net congestion ramps down and everybody can say broadband 5 times in a sentence. Essentially it`s SUNs EJB or MSs
There is just no way people are going to survive on freeware, shareware, or a business model that sells products in the strores to a market that doesn`t really want to buy. See red-hat, breaking even, fnially charging money for it`s agent service. That stuff works, but only because they target the right people (companies) in the right way (easy & clean).
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
Generally, these Linux game threads are filled with lots of misguided advocacy - "Buy Loki to 'support' them!" and "Why would a 'gamer' use Linux?". And all of this rather misses the point -- if a desktop user base materializes on Linux (and it is), the games will follow and will be purchased by practical Linux users.
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:2)
1)Get DirectX support. I'm sorry, but the whole of the gaming worl uses it. If you don't support it, you are stuffed. Even consoles are getting it, like the XBox. Games that don't use it, such as WuakeIII, are very dificult to install.
Eh? What are you talking about, man? Quake III is no harder to install than your run of the mill DirectX game. Besides, what has the graphics API got to do with the installation process? You troll.
Oh and by the way, systems like the PS2 seem to be doing pretty well even though they don't use DirectX...
Re:Tribes 2: No Mac version, plenty of PC excuses (Score:2)
$9.99 Loki Games at EBGames.com (Score:5)
I got Descent 3, Heretic II, Soldier of Fortune, Quake III Arena, Heavy Gear II and Heroes of Might and Magic III this week (six games) for less than $70.00 after shipping!
And they were fast to ship, too!
Long live Loki and Loki games! They're identical to the Windows versions on my GeForce2 under XFree86 4.0.
Windows is hardly a gaming platform (Score:2)
However, I'd like to add that I don't think Windows can even be compared to a Dreamcast or Playstation. People buy console systems to play games. People don't buy Windows to play games. Rather, a lot of people have Windows, and so there is a market for games. It's much like what you said about Linux and games. You happen to be using Linux, so now you are a potential market.
Remember back in the DOS days when Windows started getting popular? No developer wanted to switch to making Windows games. In fact, DOS games continued to be made, despite Win95 being the default OS everywhere. Eventually developers gave in, and Micrsoft helped them along with DirectX. This is not comparable to a Dreamcast. This is called "following the market".
Windows is not a gaming platform. It just happens to have many games available for it. I highly doubt any of the current crop of game developers are really much in love with Windows development.
-Justin
One more reason this game is important... (Score:4)
You can get a developer's license of the engine for cheap ($100 and some publishing restrictions) [garagegames.com]
If this game is successful, and many people playtest the engine and submit bug reports and the folks at Tribes2 keep on top of it, you might see a whole slew of mods that may rival Half-Life's in terms of quality, only this time on the Linux desktop. It'll be a real shot in the arm for linux game development to have this stuff available at large, if it catches on.
There are some publishing restrictions on the license that you'll probably want to check out if you think this is the way you want to go, but if it'll bring over any programmers from the Windows ballpark, or at least prepare Windows game programmers to work with a game engine that has success on the Linux platform, that increases the chance that we'll get more and better games.
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:2)
I do engineering sims for a living - the engineering world of massive simulation and calculation is owned by Unix and Linx, so it is definately NOT a toy OS.
Engineers use windows when they get bumped into management and no longer need a high-powered workstation. Period. I see ti every day.
Ask the Verity or Verplex or hydrodynamics guys which os's they use...and then come back here and tell me which os is the TOY os.
Re:This is a big deal. (Score:2)
OpenGL assures there will be no differences in the different OS'es and they will be compatible in network play. The main reason to develop for linux is they needed STABLE servers since there is no central server. Plus it would suck making a huge world that crashes all the time becuase Windows sucks as a server.
NWN will rule when it comes out, I've seen it in action and it rules. A few more months and it will be ready to roll.
Arathres
I love my iBook. I use it to run Linux!
Re: (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3)
Ugh, Tribes 2... A Triber's experience. (Score:2)
Before you mod me down, let me explain. As a triber, I enjoyed many things about Tribes. You didn't have to have the fastest machine in the world (133 mhz would do) to run it, it was fast-paced and very fun, and really stable.
Now we get Tribes 2, after a three year wait. I bought the game for $49.95 from a local store, brought it home, and installed it on my Win2k gaming machine (it's nothing too great, but it plays Q3, Tribes, and various other games really well.)
The installation process goes fairly well, no big problems. It is a huge game, though, taking 550MB of space (standard install).
I start the game. Three required patches available (keep in mind, this is the same night the game was released!) I downloaded the patches and attempted to apply them, only to get a few errors regarding the files being invalid.
To make a long story short, Dynamix shipped a bad disc. I was lucky enough to get it. I went back out and found another copy of Tribes 2 at another store. Came back, uninstalled the previous copy, and installed from the new disc.
Started Tribes 2 and reapplied the three patches. They applied this time around. Tribes 2 launches and crashes, yet again. I used a fix described at TribalWar [tribalwar.com] in order to switch from OpenGL to Direct3D without entering the game. Restarted the game -- wow, I was in!
Now it wanted my CD key. Tribes 2 uses an authentication system (Windows XP/Office XP, anyone?) in order to create an account for you to play with other people via the Internet. I input my CD key.
"CD key rejected. Your key is already in use."
Uuuuuuuuugh! I reinstalled Tribes 2 and reapplied the patches. Woah, it accepts the CD key. I went ahead and created my account. There are plenty of servers, many with a great ping. I joined a CTF game, to be greeted by none other than a GPF.
I restarted Tribes 2. Re-entered the game. No GPF this time. Woohoo! I was about to play the most anticipated game of 2001! I join the game, OoO, 40 fps and it looks great.
I step outside (spawned inside) and my framerate drops to 7fps. This is with everything turned down at 640x480 on a 550 mhz PIII and a Voodoo3 (yes, I know, getting old, but it's way above T2's system requirements stated on the box, which are a 350mhz PII.)
Needless to say, I switched back to Tribes, which many people seem to be doing. That disc didn't earn its permanent slot in my CD-ROM.
I decided to read Sierra's message boards, where there was a thread about poor performance. You know what the developer's response was to us 3dfx owners? "Get a newer computer!" And they claim to support 3dfx chipsets from the V2 up.
Dynamix has taken everything that was great about T1 and thrown it down the drain. You have to have the fastest machine and expect slower gameplay.
To sum it up:
Dynamix was aiming to please people like IGN and Daily Radar, not the common gamer. Definitely not recommended. Many long-time Tribers feel the same as I do.
Oh yeah... (Score:2)
You do, however, have to publish your game through GG...
Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:3)
1) These games are old. Sorry, but Alpha Centauri? Look, you don't need to convince me it was a great game, but the key word there is "was!" When people on the street see news like this, they'll say "Hmm, so this Linux OS is just now getting this game? It must really be behind the times!"
2) To promote Linux as a gaming platform is to promote it as a "toy OS." Yes, I'm aware that Windows is heavily promoted as a gaming platform, but how many technically-savvy people would consider it anything less than a toy OS? Windows at least has the strength of having the "heavyweight" office automation package. If the average guy on the street asks what software is available for Linux, what do you say? "Quake III and Emacs?" We can't have the only high-visibility software for Linux be game software, because then Linux becomes a toy OS.
I think we would do well to avoid having these two misconceptions forced upon Linux. Linux already suffers from the perception of being an operating system that is targeted primarily at political leftists; it would be a shame if we had to add on two more ridiculous and hateful suggestions. I, like most Slashdot readers, love Linux. I know that "Linux is yesterday's technology" is bullshit. I know that "Linux is a toy OS is bullshit." So let's not encourage anything that would lead people to think otherwise, mmmkay?
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:3)
Well, maybe this was a bit strongly-worded. But it doesn't take a world-renowned detective to figure out that a lot of the hard-line, anti-corporate, Seattle-protester types are big into Linux. This does not help Linux's public image, IMHO. On top of that, there was the unfortunate (and IMHO hateful) story that Slashdot ran about how Linux was supposed to become the offical OS of the People's Republic of China.
As I write this we can all be thankful that our servicemen are on their way home from China. But I have to admit that I felt a bit guilty booting into Linux, knowing that those innocent people were being held hostage, while at the same time I was using their captors' favorite OS without giving it a second thought. I know this is silly; "one thing has nothing to do with the other", as they say
At any rate, you're right
Re:Games for Linux not necessarily a good thing (Score:3)
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you mean howmany people think that Windows is nothing more than a Toy OS, you have another thing comming. Most companies, you know the kind that make cool stuff to buy, and make money doing it, use Windows at least in part. Often you'll find that very tech savvy people work at these companies (like, say ID Software). Windows is not, by any stretch of the imagination a toy OS. It is used for games, but it is also used to do lots of serious work.
Actually, if I had to call any OS a toy OS, it would be Linux, but I don't mean that in a condecending way. Linux is a great os for people that want to play around. You have porbably a hundred different WMs to choose from and countless looks. You can hack around with the kernal and basically, play with the OS to your heart's content. It's the ultimate toy OS in that it's a hacker's toy. It's great fun for techies to play with and really, that's how it got its start.
Re:But Will You Buy It? (Score:2)
motorsabbath wrote, "I wonder why I got -1 trolled for that"
Beats me, but I just metamodded the two guys who "troll -1"ed you as "unfair."
Re:Eh? Whats the point of this? (Score:2)
we already have lots of wonderful games on Linux (Score:3)
Seriously, I haven't been holding my breath for commercial gaming companies to port to Linux. There are some nice Linux games out there, and I'd much rather see the tradition of open source games continue. The classic UNIX games (rogue, etc.) are great, and they are great because lots of people contributed. I think the gameplay is still better than in most of the commercial games. Let's bring back that tradition.
Game Ports (Score:2)