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Games Entertainment

Loki Offers 50%-off Discounts to LUGs 152

Posted by CmdrTaco from the get-your-copy-of-tribes2 dept.
Robotech_Master writes "Looks like Loki is going to be offering substantial discounts to Linux User Groups wanting to make mass purchases of 10 or more copies of their titles. 50% off, and they cover shipping." Quite the deal for lugheads. Get your copy of Tribes 2. Loki continues to do really good things. I know things are tough, but hopefully they can make it. Good luck guys.
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Loki Offers 50%-off Discounts to LUGs More

Loki Offers 50%-off Discounts to LUGs

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  • Because without games in Linux, we can't achieve World Domination(tm) and overthrow Microsoft's desktop monopoly and restore competition and openness to the computer industry.
  • Is Tribes2 worth buying to play solo or does it really require a LAN party or a massively multiplayer Internet game? If it does require access to an Internet server, is that service free once ou buy the game or do you pay more for it ala MPlayer?

    Now if only we had a LUG in Salem, OR...
  • Umm. Loki didn't have anything to do with ALSA. Sam Lantinga (one of Loki's dev guys) developed SDL (which is used in the porting of games to Linux), and Loki has developed OpenAL in cooperation with Creative (who I'm not super-pleased with, but hey)...

    And yes, I don't think much of the DigitalRiver ordering system either (I ordered a batch of games - over $200 worth - last summer, and it did the same thing to me, I had to call up DR, then they cancelled my order and I just had to reorder). So I agree, they need to either FIX that, or as someone else mused, maybe drop DR altogether and buddy up with TuxGames for their online orders.

    Also, as far as the exceedingly long delay on SMACX is concerned, was there ever any final statement on that? Why the hell it took so many months to get it shipped? I played the demo LAST SUMMER (after downloading it while at DefCon - the demo was rather a blast!). Or do we still not know why?
    _____
  • Well, you can't because Microsoft published it. Microsoft will never allow a title published under their name to be ported to Linux, I promise you. Just like future Bungie titles won't be ported to Linux - once again, Microsoft is now wearing the pants in that relationship (since they bought Bungie).

    Try Kohan, it looks to be quite good, and should be available on Linux soon (if it's not already).
    _____
  • Tried FreeCraft? http://www.freecraft.org/ - check it out. I think it works with WC2. (Maybe someday it'll work with StarCraft too?)
    _____
  • Diablo, just like the rest of Blizzard's stable o'games, will never be ported to Linux. Why? Well, I don't know. Ask Blizzard. (Of course, they won't answer your question either - they might tell you there's not enough demand for it. Though I think we all can say that's a total load.)
    _____
  • Yeah, I'll bet. Nothing will ever happen there - and even if it did go forward, just watch Microsoft threaten said venture out of existence.

    Trust me, it's not going to happen. Microsoft will not allow it.
    _____
  • Compared to what you actually see on sale at retail at any given time,it's not that bad really. Many games these days are recycled versions of someone else's idea, or even their own.

    Who cares if WinDOS has 5 times as many crappier wannabes in a given genre?
  • That's a good point - one I hadn't really thought of. I've ordered the SMAC/Tribes 2 bundle from you, and I bought HG2 from you way back when it came out. In fact, I used the voucher I was given after pre-ordering HG2 at the higher price to pay for part of the shipping (to the UK) of this bundle. OTOH, I'm a LUG organiser, and I've already asked Loki for details of this offer, and announced on the LUG mailing list that I think we should take Loki up on it. I know Loki like you - hell, they recommended I bought SMAC from you rather than using their Digital River-provided store.

    I'm suprised to hear that this deal means that LUGs get games cheaper than you. That truely does sound unfair. I assume you heard about this yesterday, which is when I first heard, and I'm suprised that if you asked Loki about it then, they haven't got back to you yet.

    Being heavily cynical about this for a moment - what are you going to do about it? You're a store which carries only Linux games, and Loki are still the biggest (though not the only) publisher in the Linux market. Are you going to refuse to carry their games or something? Nope. You'll talk to them, probably shout at them, and you'll work something out with them - I know they've always seemed helpful, reasonable and friendly when I've spoken to them.

    This signature is my normal one - it just seems kind of appropriate right here:
  • Well Microsoft stock value is only half of it's previous high.

    That's quite a bit different from being worth only 1/20th of it's previous high. :)

    As far as Communism, I suggest you read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx. Communism has nothing to do with Central Planning.

    You're thinking of the very poor implementations of Communism by Russia, China, et al.

    They never became truly Communist, they got stuck in the "Dictator by the Proletariat" phase that Marx discusses.

    But then that's because Marx ignored the old saying "Power corrupts".


  • Redhat just released their annual report yesterday, and it does not show a company that is breaking even. It shows a company who is further and further in the red each year.

    They show a net loss of 53 cents a share. This compared to the net loss of 41 cents a share they had last year, and 13, 8 and 3 of the years previous to that.

    I'm curious where you get the idea that Redhat is breaking even?

    The last quarterly they lost several million, but they claimed these were a result of one time charges and if you ignored them they actually broke even.

    I can't see RedHat sticking around much past 2002, much less being profitable. Same with VA Linux which is in even worse shape financially.

    As far as Loki goes... Been there done that, sold the Amiga back in 1991.
  • I suppose it's time someone examined this more closely. Among my comrades we have always referred to GNU and Linux people as "Software Communists".

    There are quite a few similarities really. It's also not surprising that the link was made considering Stallman called his paper the GNU Manifesto.

    If you're not familiar, the work by Karl Marx which initiated the vision of Communism was called the Communist Manifesto.

  • Ahh, sorry. I am not as well versed in Communist propoganda as Linux guys are, I guess. :)
  • Here's something new: "The world doesn't revolve around you!"

    Just because YOU don't have a need for games on Linux it doesn't mean no one else has either. I personally love having Q3, Myth2, Shogo and UT for my Linux box, as a means of entertainment. Eagerly awaiting my Tribes2/SMAC bundle from Tuxgames.

    If you don't have a need for Linux games, don't buy them, simple no?

    -adnans
  • When I click on the shopping cart icon at www.lokigames.com when attempting a purchase, the URL I see is:

    http://store.lokigames.com/dr/v2/[...]

    Not Digital River at all. I realize that DR is their distributor (and, if you read my post you'll note that my lastest purchase was handled through tuxgames), however Loki needs to take responsibility for purchases handled through the ordering form on their web site. I've NEVER seen a company behave like this. Imagine Lands End or L.L. Bean taking an order from their web site, not shipping, and then blaming a distributor. However, the issue now is not Loki's order management and customer service troubles, but how the Linux gaming community will rebound through these tough times.

    That said, I wish Loki's former engineers and programmers good luck in their new careers.

    --Maynard
  • Businesses succeed by taking money for a product and/or service and then delivering said product to the customer. Should the equation "money for product and services" be disrupted, a business failure will soon follow. --M

  • I bought the windows version of SMAC with Alien Crossfire boxed at CompUSA for ~$15.00 several months back. It's a great game, no doubt... but lack of demand has brought the price down to bargain bin levels. --M
  • I don't dispute this fact one bit. While Loki's web form never made it directly clear that DR was responsible for shipping the product until after I confirmed my order, nor did it state the results of combining orders in the manner, I do recognize that Loki formed an arrangement with DR to handle their distribution. So we agree on these facts.

    So what?

    I placed a bundled order once, complained, and was told by Loki staff to please resubmit broken up and that they would resolve this problem with their distributor. Afterwards I re-ordered two other games which were on pre-order because of that promise. Then I waited several months without any response or update as to what was going on. Digital River was rude as hell to me and when I contacted Loki they offered me a ridiculous subscription to every game they might ever release as a "solution". Thank God I turned them down on that offer...

    These are the facts. You, and the other apologists for Loki continue to blame Digital River for the problem. I pulled up Loki's web page, placed an order by filling in the available boxes, and expected to receive some kind of product (or at least a regular update) like any other customer attempting a transaction with any other business. "Fault" and "blame" are irrelevant. No other online firms like L.L Bean, Land's End, etc etc etc behave like this because they want repeat customers. As I said before, I've bought ten games from Loki, which shows that I'm a repeat customer -- IOW, a gold mine to most online and mail order firms. In business the transaction is king, and those who forget their customers wind up losing transactions. Then it's bankruptcy.

    That's the real world of business. Fault is irrelevant.

    --Maynard
  • I dunno... I have a particular position regarding Loki and I repeat it when it seems appropriate; free speech and all. Why did Kayt Sorhaindo call me a liar on K5 and then never reply to back up her claim? Why did I recieve hate emails with threats to my life after my K5 post? Beats me.

    However, I don't hate loki, or the people who work for them. I simply consider them a business out to turn a profit. Therefore, I give them no special consideration that I might offer to the FSF, the GNOME foundation, Debian, KDE, or any of a number of other non-profits and/or individuals supporting the Linux community with code, documentation, artwork, etc. If Redhat and/or their staff had acted in the same way in their official capacity I'd be out on my soapbox regarding them as well. It's not a distaste for Linux games that promotes this behavior, but a deep rooted feeling that a company who publically insults its customers doesn't deserve the same kind of "slack" that a non-profit should within the Linux community.

    --Maynard
  • Since you didn't use quotes, you only imply that I used those exact words -- which I didn't. The links you provide most certainly do stand up on their own as to the veracity of the response against my original post, and the complete facts of my position at that time, and today. As for the suggestion that Loki is "out to get me", that's patently ridiculous. They're a business; at most they should be out to get my dollar. Whether they actually want my business or not I can't speak to.

    I stand by what I wrote then and today.

    --Maynard

  • No. (Score:1)

    by maynard ( 3337 )
    They were anonymous, I have no idea who sent those emails. --M
  • Most people would vent their frustrations once, and let it stay there.
    As I've written in the past, I originally posted to K5 out of frustration with their unwillingness to resolve my problem and the potential that it might happen to someone else. I'm actually be quite happy to learn that another person couldn't get into the same bind I found myself in last Sept-Oct. And, frankly, it's pretty much past history.

    If you read the first post I wrote in this thread I summarized my personal annoyance with Loki, but I didn't dwell on it. That post was primarily a note regarding my regret over seeing the linux gaming scene in it's current state and my desire and wish to see it succeed. Of course, I know nothing about Loki's internal situation beyond what's been posted publicly, but based on their inability to get new product out the door, the large number of engineers who have left, and this apparent firesale of SMAC and Tribes 2 I can only assume the worst.

    I honestly don't want loki to go bankrupt, or their staff to lose their jobs. However, I can't imagine any business succeeding given the assumption that I'm not the only one who's had a problem with them. I assume that if I've had a problem with customer service, other must have as well. In fact, while I received some threatening emails, I also received several emails from others who had problems with loki too. So, I wouldn't call what I've written a vendetta against loki or their staff. More a response to the overwhelming unreasonable calls to support loki no matter what -- even to the point of buying games that one wouldn't want or couldn't use. Linux users are wearing blinders that somehow if we all just buy one more game we don't want or need we'll somehow save the linux gaming scene. No... it doesn't work that way; that kind of market distortion is bound to fail across the long haul. A viable gaming scene will emerge once economic market conditions allow, and once the necessary software infrastructure is in place. Also, reasonable customer service helps.

    I never saw a note in any of their newsgroups which suggested that customers not pre-order games. And the thought that a customer should know beforehand that something like this might happen is simply ludicrous. One can say "caveat emptor", but once done the notion of a higher calling WRT a for profit venture is out the door. They are a business. Which is good... businesses employ people and are a necessary part of a civilized society. But just because they are a linux business doesn't make them any more (or less) responsible to their customers. That's my attitude about the whole thing. I'm a critic of the policy presented by my communication with Kayt and most especially by the virulent response from the linux gaming community; one doesn't forget death threats easily. I also write letters to my congresspersons, other businesses which behave in ways I consider inappropriate, etc... so this isn't strictly about Loki. I waste time on this because I think it's the "right thing to do". Quixotesque, I suppose; and arguably childish here given that it's six months after the fact and I've been trolled into this debate once again.

    Some of the engineering work in the games loki has released is just wonderful. The free software Loki has released, such as ALSA, is of real benefit to the Linux community as a whole as well. I don't argue that they've produced bad products, or that they've done a terrible disservice to the linux community through fraud or some other financial scandal. Loki has produced an honest product for the buck. But the customer support hasn't been satisfactory to my taste. I'm playing the role of critic here and hoping that with enough bitching some policy will change. Also, I hope to provide a balance to the absurd RAH RAH RAH that goes on WRT loki.

    You know, if a rep from Loki had attempted to nip this in the bud -- for example, contacting DR and just canceling the order and re-reinstating it into two separate orders -- this whole thing would never have happened. Seriously.

    If Loki won't let that kind of thing happen again (which honestly was probably a pretty rare event anyway), I'll be pleased and certainly won't claim that others might continue to get into that kind of mess. Can you publicly present a factual basis for that claim? I say this because you've been posting AC...

    Cheers,
    --Maynard

    ps -- I honestly DO want to see the linux gaming market succeed. I like playing games!
  • Mr. AC:

    I'm flying out on business tomorrow morning, so if you actually do write back know that I'm not blowing you off but am simply out of town and unable to access the net.

    Feel free to contact me via email, the address listed here is correct; I'll reply when I get a chance. If you must, send the note from an anonymous email account as well, just reference this post so I know the context.

    I've been thinking about what you said WRT loki fixing their web site. You're right, if they've taken action to prevent the problem from happening to others, I might have prefered a more open statement to that effect, but I'm certainly impressed. Loki's problems with DR are really their affair, I'm more concerned about customers getting screwed by placing an order which appears to be reasonable on loki's web order form without knowing the potential consequences. The more I think about it the more I realize that I'm amenable to resolution by such a policy change.

    I'd really like to be able to comment on Loki (good or bad) without having this whole mess come up again. If it's true that they've taken steps to resolve the problem then I really don't have much reason to bitch any longer.

    Cheers,
    --Maynard
  • This is terrible. I've ranted in the past about Loki's awful customer service, and I claimed I would never buy another game from them again. That is after having bought ten games from Loki.So I suppose their demise is justified, given how badly they've judged the Linux market and how poorly they served this customer. But it's terrible just the same.

    Loki screwed up in so many ways, which shouldn't have been obvious only in hindsight. For example, they focused on far too many 3D game ports like Heavy Gear 2, Soldier of Fortune, Descent 2, etc, when the driver support wasn't integrated in by the popular linux distributors like Redhat, Mandrake, et all. This meant that average users trying to install and play their games had to go through all sorts of hoops to get the stuff running on XFree-3.3.x, which further limited their market to only the most knowedgeable of the Linux community. If they had focused on porting more strategy games like CivCTP, which had a real potential market, they might still be financially solvent.

    They *still* have refused to fix their web page and still take orders which they know they can't ship. What I mean by this is that if you order a released product bundled with something that's to be released at a future date, they will hold the released product until the new title is available. I'm sure this is primarily a problem with their distributor, but they could have set up their order form to either prevent these kinds of orders, or at least inform the customer of his/her potential wait.

    All this said, I'm a hypocrite: after claiming I would never buy another Loki title again, I ordered the SMAC/Tribes 2 bundle from TuxGames recently primarily because I really like SMAC. I've got it running under Windows, but I like the game enough to bring it over to the linux side of my box... I have no idea how good Tribes 2 will be. Hope I enjoy the game.

    I very much want to see the linux gaming market succeed. However, I recognize that if the market is only large enough to support one porting vendor it's not a sustainable market. One economic downturn and *poof!*. It's not reasonable for Linux gamers to be begging folks to go out and buy any and every game to help support loki. The market should support Loki (or any other company for that matter) on its own. Go ahead and buy these games if they're what you want (I did). But to buy these games just to "save loki" is foolish, and a failed strategy over the long haul.

    I'm encouraged by John Carmack repeatedly stating that he will provide a port of Doom 3 to Linux. He probably won't sell a boxed version, but at least Linux gamers will be able to buy the Windows version and play under Linux. This is the seed that will keep the Linux gaming movment alive until the necessary drivers migrate out to the user community. Once XFree 4.x.x is ubiquitous we'll have the software infrastructure in place to support a 3D gaming market... at that point the primary issue will be whether there are enough users and buyers to support a company, not whether the market has the requisite skills necessary to configure their OS in order to play the game.

    --Maynard
  • I've just ordered from your company for the first time, I wish I had done so previously.

    It looks like you're going to be the next company to hold the linux gaming torch; you need to find an alternative revenue stream from selling Loki games. Maybe you could work out an arrangement with id for providing support for their upcoming Doom 3 release? They release a windows CD and the binaries to play on Linux, you offer support in exchange for a fee -- either by a 900 number or some other scheme.

    There are other companies producing cross platform games out there -- tribesoft and vicarious visions being the two best known at the moment. I hope you're able to find a revenue stream through while the linux gaming market recovers. It's important to note that for the first time we're seeing distributions which actually support 3D out of the box. RH7.1 does a pretty good job, I'm impressed. So the software infrastructure is now in place for install and play gaming.

    Good luck to you, sir.
    --Maynard
  • Q3A runs beautifully under RH7.1 with my Voodoo 3/2k. Some of the other Loki games, such as Myth II, have problems with running in 16bpp mode under GL (you have to update to the latest patch to support GL) with the Voodoo 1/2/3, however for the first time getting 3D support working under Linux is as simple as installing a distribution. If you've got an NVIDIA card you'll want to download the NVIDIA drivers, as the XFree4 drivers aren't anywhere near as good... but Voodoo and Radeon support out of the box is basically here.

    This is *much* more important than just being able to play games... it's critical to the scientific community that requires 3D support for molecular modeling, data analysis, simulations, etc as well as the graphics rendering and modeling community. The long term consequences of out of the box 3D support in Linux for the graphics and scientific communities means far greater Linux penetration within these markets. And that's where the Linux desktop is heading -- on the desks of engineers, scientist, and artists... not business users. JMO.

    --Maynard
  • I wish I had known before, because I would have waited and ordered with the LUG. Robert in Alaska
  • Loki isn't open source - they're closed source on commerical games. The only open source they do are development tools.
  • Then don't buy from Digital River -- buy from tuxgames or one of the other resellers. Loki's online store isn't run by Loki.
  • * I know I'm not posting anon * I have no idea about how or why the game market works with resellerproduction realtions. * You can't add extra cost of a reseller to pass this discount on to the LUGs. ( common sense ) You have the value add of bundles with SMAC. Perhaps you should seek to replace Ditigal River as Loki's online sells partner. They're are many people displeased with DR, and it could help both companies from a PR standpoint. Maybe you should try forming a better partnership with various companies and look into selling|sponsoring other commerical entertianment software like dvd players.
  • For example, they focused on far too many 3D game ports

    Oh you mean like SimCity3kU, Railroad Tycoon II, EUS, Heroes III, Myth2, SMAC, and CivIII:CTP right?

    The development of the 3D games helps to drive the development of good 3d drivers, as well as the use of the appropriate infrastructure in distributions.

    Looking at it here, I see that of the 14 games currently shipping, 7 of them are non-3d accelerated.

    And actually, for them it makes business sense to work on 3d games. Those who play them tend to have more funds available for buying the games in the first place.

    Looking at the list of most popular games, most of them do tend to be 3d games, so the argument that they would have made more money by concentrating on RTS style games is without merit. Additionally, the porting of 3d games has an ancilliary benefit, it disproves the notion that Linux is incapable of being a games platform. That will trend towards an increase in the available ports. Ini addition, porting the popular games is the best way to develop market share. Capitalize on the 'big names'. For exmaple, look at the people here complaining about the 'age' of the currently ported games. I'll wager these are the same people who won't buy them, and then c0omplain that Loki fell becuase nobody bought their games. In order to get the bigger games, you have to demonstrate success.

    Remember, they can't just unilaterally decide to port a game they don't own. They have to convince the original makers that it would be a good idea, and that it is even feasible. Good 3d shows that 2d can be done well, it shows a commitment and a level of expertise that many game-cos insist on. If you doubt this, go get Blizzard to let you port their titles.

    As far as those who see this discount as a sign of trouble, consider that many of us LUGs have been lobbying for something like this for quite some time. Also, by getting the games out to those who are on the forefront of getting Linux into the consumer's hands, they provide a more robust opportunity for Linux spread, as well as sales of their own games.

    As far as you bundle issue, DUH! When you but a bundle, you don't get it until the whole thing is ready, that's why it is called a bundle. ;^)~

  • I guess I don't understand why there's such squawking over the need for games under Linux. I have a Linux box at home for my network server needs, and I have a Windows box for my gaming.

    OK, I'll bite. I don't have a windows box, and I haven't had a windows box for almost 2 years. I have a few great Linux boxes, and I like to play games. Please put 2+2 together.
    --

  • Im sure we will all work out a deal or arrangement

    Yes, the obvious arrangement would be for you to supply the LUG's under the LUG arrangement so that your higher volume gets you a big enough discount to make it worth your while. To put things in perspective, you're looking at a situation here where your main supplier has to take steps to keep itself viable - that's as much your concern as theirs.

    I agree you deserve an apology for having heard about this move first in the news. I'd try to interpret that as thoughtless as opposed to malicious.
    --

  • Sounds like a good idea to me! I'd like to be able to do that myself :)

    I'm still trying to get my LUG off the ground for my area, which is south-west Indiana. If there's anyone in that vicinity (or even if you're not THAT close!) who would like a LUG to join, please look into tinyLUG [tinylug.org] :)

    --
    Delphis
  • There's a Saskatoon Linux Group? Damn. I didn't know that, and I've been using Linux for the better part of four years now...
  • Will you people listen to yourselves? You're buying more than one copy of the same game to try and keep a company alive. And in the same breath you talk about the Linux Revolution. What gives?

    I am currently posting this from Windows 2000. I use Win 2K at work because I need Windows do do my job. Sure, much of what I do is on a number of Linux servers across the country, but our main product staple is Windows based. For this reason I use Windows, it is the best tool for the job.

    Having said that, I am a gamer, and I like games as do members of our LUG. Linux, like Windows is just a tool to do a job, in some instances it is the better tool. Currently for gaming, Linux is not that tool, Windows is. As you can tell however, I like Linux (and Unix's in general) and I believe in supporting it. There is a catch 22 here. Without more Linux software there will be fewer Linux users.

    Do I think that Loki should be able to survive on it's own merits? Of course I do. Still, if I am given the option of buying the game for full price, or buying TWO copies for the same price, which should I pick?

    You can reference my previous comment [slashdot.org] on this matter.

    So, in conclusion I would like to commend you on an excellent trolling. I am just supporting something I believe in. I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

  • Our LUG is doing this. (Score:3)

    by Mr. Flibble ( 12943 ) on Friday April 20, 2001 @08:05AM (#277392) Homepage
    Our LUG solug.org [solug.org] is doing this. We don't really have enough members for 10 copies (or rather we do, but not all members are gamers) So there are 5 of us who want the game, and of those 5 we were going to buy the game anyways, so it looks like we will end up with 2 copies each. I can live with that, so can they.

    And it boosts sales of the linux version too.
  • Great point... I guess because I didn't post a link somewhere... sigh...

    Jethro

  • /. Buy-In (Score:4)

    by Jethro73 ( 14686 ) on Friday April 20, 2001 @04:36AM (#277394)
    So, who is going to organize a /. buy-in? We can get a hell of a discount on 10,000 copies!

    Jethro
  • Not another one...

    Yeah, a lot of the games aren't exactly new, but then Loki probably can't afford to pay the licencing fees on brand new titles. (Not forgetting that porting games takes time, of course...)

    Tribes 2, on the other hand, is only a few weeks old. It isn't going to be avilable at a "huge discount" for quite some time yet.

    Cheers,

    Tim
  • Tribes2 isn't a bargain-bin game, it just came out about two weeks ago.
  • Not so funny.

    I saw that "Alpha Centauri" was going to be released, but this is two months after my son buys it for $10 from EB, for Windows, natch'. Can't justify another copy for Linux, much as I'd like to.

    Would have liked it very much if "Black & White" had a Linux release simultaneously with the Windows release. Not a happening thing.

    Would REALLY REALLY like it if an equivalent of Links Golf was available for Linux. Heck, the game originated on an Amiga!

    Rant, rant, rant.... Markets, money, grumble.

  • I also bought the Win version a few weeks ago. I just sold it to a friend and ordered the Tribes 2 + Alpha Centauri double pack from Tuxgames. The idea of being able to play T2 and AC (both brilliant games) without resotring to the "boot-to-windows-game-partition" dance is wonderful. Go Loki!

    I would also urge people to support Loki (and Tuxgames and...) right now. If there games don't dell, there may not be as many new games for Linux in the future. Linux is great for software development and server stuff, and being able to also play games on it removes the last need for a Windows partition.

  • Considering the number of people here who's bought Loki games, me included, and who no longer are willing to put up with the crap windows gives you even for just playing games, I dont think Loki is going to have any long term problem. Especially with XFree 4 coming online in standard stable distributions.

    That they want to popularize linux gaming is understandable, since as far as Ive seen it's not even common knowledge in the Linux crowd that a lot of the titles are available, and they would do well to expand the market through some grassroots efforts, altho it would be a fine line to tread between alienating ordinary channels and reaching more potential customers. Still, the LUG's are probably somewhere around 5 percent of the Linux users total, so what the effect would be remains to be seen.
  • Oh, yeah, and the people who actually use the software. And multibillion corporations who want to cut down on IT budgets. And those with experience enough in the industry to know that with proprietary products you're gonna depend on a company staying in buisness and actually supporting their products (which usually isnt exactly what happens over a 5 year period). And those who need to customize their software. Well, ok, actually open source is for everyone who isnt a buisness basing their buisness model on selling proprietary software.
  • >This sounds like a great idea for any Linux company, go directly to the LUGs to find a dedicated user base.

    I'm sorry but this is the most obvious thing to do. They should have done this already a long time ago. Its not a great idea, its an obvious one

    When is it a good thing for a company to sell their product at a deep discount. Including pretty recent product, Tribes 2.

    This isn't to convert the masses as you have to be part of the user group already.

    Sorry, but as a business, this move doesn't look good for Loki.
  • >My buddy tells me that I can get it for half price, I just have to let him install linux for me

    You don't have money for a full priced game yet you have an extra hard drive? (and yes you would need that to fit all the required Linux/XWindows/Tribes2 stuff on)

    >Everybody wins.

    Not Loki. There is only one company to buy Linux games from. What does that say when they have to cut prices 50%?
  • Not to mention the extra business Loki will get. As long as 2x more people are willing to buy if it's 50% off, seems like a worthwhile proposition to me.

    Besides, Slashdot is like a LUG anyway.

  • Communism and capitalism don't mix (hence the failure of a capitalist firm in the world of Linux)

    Not this crap again!!

    Linux is successful because of its openness via the GPL. This is possible under any system of government that permits copyright protection. (required for the GPL to work)

    How exactly then is linux communist?

    I am sick of this pathetic non-sensical connection between people choosing to release something with a liberal license and communism. Change the fucking record or else say something new to qualify this nonsense.

  • I have seen that link made also, but I don't see it. A manifesto is simply a declaration of principles. I fail to see how someone who declares their principles now is somehow comminust simply because they use the same english word that Marx used when he declared his.

    And "quite a few similarities" doesn't convince me either. What similarities?
  • "Since the Windows rendering of Deus Ex was so crappy, they provided these files and made them available to the Windows community as well... They did NOT have to do that, but did it instead out of compassion"

    What the hell are you smoking?
  • "If you don't have a need for Linux games, don't buy them, simple no?"

    Yes, quite simple, and no one is. That's why there is not a plethora of titles, Loki deems it necessary to ofer a discount, and the zealots around here tell everyone to "Put up or shut up" and go out and buy them just to support the community.

  • "must have at least red hat linux 7.1"

    Doesn't that counter everything the linux community stands for? Are you trying to create another Microsoft?
  • I think that you are making the mistake that there are two distinctly different classes of users for Linux: Classical Hackers and Corporate Users. I will agree that classical hackers are less likely to buy software -- their commitment to open computing, however, is what created Linux -- never forget this. Corporate users are using Linux simply because it just works better. These users will (probably) pay for software although the evidence isn't fully in yet. The mistake seems to come when people want to make $ from truly end user software whose current only real market is Classical Hackers. For right now, the real money in software for Linux is server side. Just my .02
  • More than one. Tribsoft [tribsoft.com] is another; they're selling JA2 and are working on EU, Majesty and JA2:UB it seems.
  • Hey, cool! I remember you, Julian :) You used to call my BBS ;) Drop me a line sometime, or join the mailing list.

    --
  • I was actually wondering about how we could encourage more Linux gaming :) I'm with the very teeny Saskatoon Linux Users' Group [slg.org]; we're not exactly rich. There's been talk of an installfest recently, and having games to give out (or sell for small amounts) would really help out.
    --
  • Now I can go to an installfest run by a lug, get all my Linux stuff set up with working sound and 3D, and then get the games cheap! Sweeeet.

    Now if I could only find a Linux distro with 3D that works well enough to play games on Nvidia cards, right out of the box. Anyone know if Mandrake 8 is capable?
  • Actually, you have Communism all wrong. Communism, as defined by Marx, describes a socienty in which NO ONE, including a central government, owns anything. In a true communist socienty there would be no central government at all. The society you are describing is closer to Stalinism, a bastardization of Communism.
  • Standard line of FUD really. Sure some Linux companies are failing right now. So are a shitload of non-linux companies. Turns out you kind of have to have an idea of how to make some money if you plan to be a successful company. Imagine my surprise...

    Redhat's breaking even and I can see them being profitable. IBM likes Linux because it makes them money through hardware sales and services. VA Linux wants to be the Dell of the Linux world but I think the only Dell of the Linux world is going to be Dell.

    Most of the Linux users I know wouldn't have any problem spending money on entertainment, which is what games are. Loki's problem is that most of us don't mind booting to Windows to play games (Not me though, I've got no MS products on my hard drives at home.) Or firing up the Playstation 2. Loki may not be able to compete in the long run, but I think they'll be able to bring in enough money to pay the bills for the foreseeable future.

  • *Cough* [redhat.com]

    There was other coverage but I can't be bothered to find it right now.

  • What the heck is SMAC? The only thing I could come up with is Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, but thats the wrong acronym.
  • Get some SuSE 7.1.

    Works great with NVidia cards.

  • I guess I don't understand why there's such squawking over the need for games under Linux. I have a Linux box at home for my network server needs, and I have a Windows box for my gaming.

    I have the same setup, but for my home system, I would still love to see linux supported as a gaming platform. If Loki succeeds, there goes the only compelling reason to keep a win9x box around at home.

    Which means a substantial savings in time and money.

    It's funny this came up when it did, I was just thinking last night how this area needs a LUG. I'd be interested in any advice, I'm sure some people with experience organising a LUG will read this sometime...


    "That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
  • Although I think this idea of catering to LUGS is one that other companies should look at more often as well, I still think the main thrust is best placed with the distributions.

    Demo versions need to get shipped with _all_ distributions who's general mandate includes gamers. So many first-time users have no idea what sorts of games are available for linux. The other thing is that people who already paid money for a boxed linux CD are also more likely to pay money for the full version of a game -- maybe even give those people a mail-in rebate or something.

  • Re:Not very impressed AT ALL (Score:4)

    by sigyn ( 95171 ) on Friday April 20, 2001 @08:57AM (#277421)
    We received an email from Michael last night and will be responding to him directly. Still, we would like to address a few points here.

    The LUG program is intended to support the efforts of non-profit groups who are evangelizing Linux. Our program allows LUGs to purchase Loki products at a discount for promotional purposes (e.g. give aways and contest prizes) and to generate financial support for their efforts via resale to their members.

    There are strict qualification guidelines--you actually have to be a LUG, LUGs cannot sell or distribute products to anyone except their own members, and sales and give aways of products must be done at LUG meetings and events.

    Tuxgames.com is an online webstore which sells Linux products to end users. They buy the product at a discount and sell at a profit. The more they buy, the bigger the discount. There are a number of such sites in countries all over the world. A list of stores (both online and brick and mortar) that resell Loki's products can be found at http://www.lokigames.com/orders/resellers.php3 [lokigames.com]. We value our resellers and have worked hard to build relationships with them. We use Tuxgames, for example, to offer product discounts to our beta testers and, when we had problems with our own webstore recently, we emailed customers and suggested they use the Tuxgames site instead to avoid delays.

    Loki is proud of its record supporting the community of users and developers involved with open source software. We believe that our game products play an important role increasing the appeal of Linux to new users, and are excited about reaching new users by sponsoring LUGs with this new program.

    Kayt Sorhaindo
    Queen Bee
    Loki Software, Inc.

  • you should prob try reading the README next time you attempt to install the nvidia drivers (and make sure mesa doesnt overwrite your glx .so's or your OpenGL will be done in software)

    with my little 16 Meg TNT i get more than 15fps in UT and a bunch more than that in q3a.

    As for the people haveing fps probs in tribes2, they are idoits too, my TNT can pull 30fps outside and up to 70 inside (windows version, my linux copy isnt here yet).

    Read the T2 orums for that, almost all the people with fps problems are saying "I cant run 1600x1200 with all settings maxed on my voodoo 1, WTF dynamix sucks", idiots.
  • and I always thought LUG stood for Lesbian UnderGrad. What's the world coming to.
  • What is the normal discount provided to a store? That is, is this 50% discount more comparable to reducing the retail price to a wholesale price? If it is, they are just using LUGs as storefronts with great demographics.
  • hmm, when i ordered q3 from loki it didnt cost me more than 10$ for shipping to europe.

    isnt it possible for you to buy linux game at some company that is located in your country? here in sweden i can buy most loki games for less than 45$ over order. you can try to look at loki reseller list at http://www.lokigames.com/orders/resellers.php3 [lokigames.com]. there might be reseller near you.
  • i just checked out tuxgames they take 6$ for shipping to any european country
  • I guess I don't understand why there's such squawking over the need for games under Linux. I have a Linux box at home for my network server needs, and I have a Windows box for my gaming.

    What's wrong with using the right OS for the job?
    --

  • If their profit margins are halved, but twice as many people buy, you would be right. However, they probably have to pay $5-10 in packaging and printing per copy, so if you halve the sticker price, you more than halve their profits. So more than twice as many would have to buy.

    The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.

  • Time to pay your dues (Score:4)

    by jvmatthe ( 116058 ) on Friday April 20, 2001 @04:49AM (#277429) Homepage
    This means you can get Tribes2 for less than the Windows version. For once, Linux users have a leg up on the Win32 guys.

    Note that I'm not taking into account the limited time special prices you can get from local stores from week to week. The price for Tribes 2 on ebgames.com [ebgames.com] is currently $45. The price for Tribes2 Linux is $50, so you can get it for $25 or less with this LUG deal.

    Ok, Linux supporters...time to put up or shut up. If you truly want to help, lay out the money now.

    FWIW, I put down over $100 in games from TuxGames [tuxgames.com] to get my Tribes2, SMAC, and other Linux games earlier this week. Reviews forthcoming here [linuxgames.com].

  • Ok, Linux supporters...time to put up or shut up. If you truly want to help, lay out the money now.

    Loki is doing a great job and I would like to see them continue. But I'm not going to run out and buy their games yet, for this reason: there are no good 3D graphics drivers for my nVidia GeForce. Yes, I'm aware that everyone says how great these drivers are...but I don't see it. Last time I tried them (admittedly, before I upgraded my processor, but given my CPU usage I don't think that was the bottleneck), I got around 15fps on Unreal...not playable. The drivers have other problems, too...remember, they're beta at best. Look at even the known bugs list: SMP crashes, bad memory leaks, etc.

    Given that Unreal is that slow, there's absolutely no way I'm going to pay for Tribes2/Linux, when even the Windows version is known to be quite slow on a lot of systems. I'd consider buying 2D Loki games (I'd buy Starcraft in a second if they had it), but not 3D ones.

  • you should prob try reading the README next time you attempt to install the nvidia drivers (and make sure mesa doesnt overwrite your glx .so's or your OpenGL will be done in software)

    I did read that readme. I did the RPM installation, which found the lib[Gg][Ll]* stuff Mesa had left around and moved it out of the way. With pure software rendering, I get even worse than that...like 2 seconds per frame, not frames per second. So I do know it's doing something else. Also when games give info about the drivers they are using, it appears correct.

    Thanks for the suggestion, anyway. I guess I will try again now...maybe my (much) faster processor will help, as it did help in Windows. (From a dual-Celeron 500 to an Athlon 1Ghz. Much higher FSB speed as well.)

  • Not if you consider the available APIs, DDKs and SDKs. Sure some are coming along, some have been around and just needed hardware support, etc. But as long as a huge portion of the PC gaming market is in Windows, it is going to be hard to get all of the pieces to fall in to place for Linux to be a successful gaming platform. Loki is certainly helping, and games like Quake 3 show the power of Linux. But the power behind the PC gaming industry is money. That is why DirectX is so common, and why we have trouble getting Linux drivers from certain 3D game manufacturers. The few games I play are great in Linux. But for most of my gamer friends, Windows (or a Mac for some of them) is the only way to get their fix.
  • I'm still waiting on a War Craft II port, then I'll have all my bases covered.
  • As opposed to all the great, wildly profitable Windows games companies, like Looking Glass, and Sierra, and, uh...
  • I would buy some games if the shipping costs wouldn't be that high for Europe. 39$ shipping costs for a 30$ game is way too much for me. Can you also download games ? Haven't seen that option.
  • No, we arent. Which is exactly the point. What is to stop a competitor claiming to be a LUG (last time I checked there was no legal procedure or even procedure at all for becoming one) and undrecutting us? Whatis to stop US claiming to be a LUG? I hereby proclaim that I am opening the GLUG (Gamers LUG) and anyone may join, and now we can get the discounts. Yeah I could do that but that would be being underhanded and practicing bad business.

    Its all well and good giving discounts, but a lot of game players are in LUGS and they will *obviously* buy at the cheaper price when they can.
    I have employees to pay and food to put on the table. If this goes ahead and cuts out 50% of my business, then Im the one going out of business because I stuck to the Linux market and tried to support the cause.
    When your supplier undercuts you, its just bad form.
    Dont get me wrong, I do NOT AT ALL object to LUGS getting discounted prices. In fact Tux Games has offered discount prices ourselves to several LUGS because we DO support the community, but Loki offering prices LOWER than their reseller network have been buying for is bad practice.

  • Yeah.
    Its a pity you havent got the guts to stick your neck out and take a chance.
    Or to do anything brave in fact. Insulting me anonymously is as big and clever as a 3 year old.
    You, sir, are a troll, and I consign you to my killfile.
  • We took a community survey as to what the community wanted us to do. We made a lot of decisions based on that. Now hold on a minute, are you one of these people that flame companies for listening to the community - unless they are non-profit companies.
    Please.
  • Hmmm, goes to show you dont actually know anything about what Tux Games does.
    We are in the middle of implimenting a number of things to help the community that does far more than the average small LUG.

    We have plans to set up a support network where voulenteers get paid to support Linux, to give games companies a support network that allows them to publish games without the need to set up a Linux support department (which most of them refuse to do). This aims to give us all more games, and gives the Linux volenteers a nice extra income.
    We have been working with two open source games projects to publish their games in the hopes of providing them with a stable income and maybe enough for them to quit their day jobs and work fulltime on their open source projects
    We have been planning a number of other ways to assist the community that will bring more funds to good open source projects to allow them to continue their work. Im not going into those yet as the plans are a way away yet and we dont want people hassling us for 'when when when' before we are ready.

    While I do not in any way say that the LUGs are not important (they are, I used to run a small LUG a few years back so I fully understand how important they are), the business people are also important. We work hard to get the games to the customers. What would you rather Loki be doing? Would you rather they be developing new games, or spending their time shipping to customers and dealing with non-delivery problems? I know I for one would prefer they do the development. That is what the middleman is for, they take the hassle of distribution away from the product producers. We have the hassle of non-delivery, the hassle of shipping one game at a time. We do this and Loki doesnt have to care less about it.
    No middlemen mean less games coming out. Thats a plain and simple fact.

  • Hrm, good idea. I'll add it to the TODO list {:-)
  • Tux Games has no problem with Loki, we have a very good relationship with Loki and their people, and we fully support their attempt to bring cheap games to LUGs. We would prefer, however, that the LUGS be given an EQUAL discount not better.
    We dont like getting information like this from LWN where we first heard it, and we dont really like being undercut. However for anyone that read my statements as an attack on Loki, please re-read. Loki has done a great service for the last 2 years and we hope they continue to do so. Tux Games will continue to support them. Two companies are perfectly allowed to disagree on some points, whilst working together in others. Its all just part of the day to day of business.
    My comments did sound harsh (on re-reading) but when you see the business you have spent 18 months of your life on, being threatened by a decision like that, and you see a hundred people on slashdot saying what a great thing it is, well, it does tend to make me a little overly passionate about it. My apologies to anyone that may have been offended by it, but I stand by the comments that it could seriously damage the reseller chain. Without the reseller chain, sure, everyone will get cheaper games. Briefly.
    With no resellers Loki will have to spend all of their time doing shipments and customer service support. That wont leave much time for development, and that isnt what Loki is supposed to be doing. Companies have their specialities. Loki develops. We retail. Doing both is never a good idea, that is standard business understanding.
  • Yep, first I heard about this was from the link at linuxgames.com. I was, to say the least, startled.
    First thing I did was fire off an email to Loki, to try and find out what was going on. Im sure they will reply, and Im sure we will all work out a deal or arrangement, but until them I am in the dark. Its quite worrying seeing my whole business hanging on what Loki will reply with, and knowing that over there in CA they havent started business yet so I have to sit here twiddling my thumbs and waiting to see if Im still in business or not. I think that that accounts for the harsh tone of my first post. Stress!
    No, we wont ever stop selling the Loki games even if we have to sell higher priced than Loki does. Obviously we wouldnt get may sales but we would still carry them.
    We only refused to carry one game, and that was because the supplier (spiderweb software)demanded the email address of every purchaser...We refused to divulge private customer information to them, and they gave us an ultimatum... We chose to not do business with them.

  • Not very impressed AT ALL (Score:5)

    by michaelsimms ( 141209 ) on Friday April 20, 2001 @06:06AM (#277443) Homepage
    <rant-mode> As CEO of a company that has just shelled out MANY thousands of dollars on copies of Tribes 2 and Alpha Centauri, I was less than impressed to see Loki was selling to every LUG at a price LOWER than they are selling to their resellers. I can tell yuo for a FACT that Tux Games [tuxgames.com] dos NOT get discounts like this, and we have been ordering Tribes 2 and Alpha by the hundred, not by the ten.
    Loki has of yet not responded to my demand for an explaination, but I think this is NOT the way to win loyalty in resellers. If they charge LUGs less money than they charge resellers, the resellers may as well just pack up shop and go home.

    Suffice to say, we arent best pleased at this news. All well and good to give discounts to LUGs, but please, lower than the resellers?? Thats a great way to kill your reseller channel stone dead! </rant-mode>

  • name ONE linux-centric company that will still be around in 5 years, besides redhat.

    VA Linux, because they sell mostly hardware, Penguin Computing for the same reason. Cygnus (now owned by Red Hat, for better or for worse) was profitable long before this "Open Source" foolishness came about.

    Then a host of other companies that aren't totaly GNU/Linux, but they are headed in the right direction, e.g. IBM, Dell, Compaq, Sun, etc. In other words, a lot of the old timers of computing that want to get away from Microsoft. Again, mostly hardware sellers.

    As for the software side of things, well, I don't hold much hope for them. I think that creating Free Software is much better served by a non-profit corperation, such as the FSF, Debian, Freenet Project Inc., etc. Red Hat and a few others (like the aforementioned Cygnus) get away with it because they sell support or aren't pure Free Software.


    ------

  • Do you have the nvidia drivers or do you have the nv drivers? Simple hint look at XF86Config-4. My TNT2 pulls ~30 fps in UT. In short you either a troll or an idiot. Either way send me your card.
  • For me Linux is the right OS for the job. I have had much better luck with UT under Linux than I ever had with it under Winders. Just as fast, more stable, and I don't have to reboot to get all my other good apps when I get done. While a Linux desktop is not for everyone it is *very* good for those of us who know how to set it up.
    I simply have no jobs for which Windows is the right OS and it would appear that many people agree with me. :)
  • Oh dear. Think about it. Is giving bulk discounts the action of a company with healthy demand, loads of product shifting, flying off the shelves, great guns?

    Or is it the action of a company clogged to the U-bend with inventory (rapidly depreciating inventory at that) which needs to make a sale, any sale, ASAP to meet the next month's wage bill?

    Anyone? Bueller?

  • I bought Tribes 2 for Windows already...
  • How does that run? Is the sound okay?
  • Personally, I think Linux *is* the right OS for gaming. Gamers frequently report better framerates and stability under Linux than under Windows. It is true that the selection of supported 3D hardware is smaller, but the major players (currently ATI and Nvidia) are there en force.

    With decent video drivers (which now exist thanks to the DRI project and Nvidia), solid multimedia toolkits (SDL and OpenGL), superior networking code (I think Linux can take Windows to task on that one ANY day), and other niceties like SMP support (which 98 lacks), there is really nothing that makes Linux less capable as a gaming platform than Windows.

    Not speaking for Loki here; just my opinion.

    -John
  • This sounds like a great idea for any Linux company, go directly to the LUGs to find a dedicated user base.

    Of course, now MS can circulate a memo saying that Loki is using their astroturf technique to generate sales.
  • > they are all worth a fraction of earlier values...
    Of course, so are M$, Oracle, Sun, etc.

    > ...based on communist principles of shared ownership...
    Perhaps you're not clear on the notion of licensing as it applies to Linux. You certainly are not clear on ownership as it relates to Communism. There is no meaningful comparison between a license that allows limited use of software under strict licensing controls (such as those imposed by the GPL), and a system of centralized government decision-making and capital ownership (as Communism is implemented).
    You may well be correct that there will be few, if any profitable companies based soley on open source software, but it has nothing to do with communism.


    -------------------------

  • b/c I don't need to have two boxes to do it under linux?

    Why should I reboot to an O/S with crappier apps for the stuff I do regularly just to play a game?

    I have quake3, unreal tournament, tribes 2 all under linux and am quite happy with it. I don't have a windoze partition on any of my computers. Haven't since 1993, when I first discovered the joys of running OS/2.

    Windoze is counterintuitive, and doesn't allow you to work the way you want to work. Funk Dat!

  • The problem with porting Windows code to Linux, espically games, is that the code wasn't designed with cross platform compatiblity in mind. So you get things like Railroad Tycoon II not able to do multiplayer with Windows. (Works fine with Mac as they ported the Mac version, not the Windows version.)

    Quake 3 is thankfully a different kettle of fish and a slightly better plan. It's at least designed to be cross platform. Until Loki came along, id was fine with the one box mutiple platforms. id never officially supported their games on linux though. (You couldn't call tech support and expect help with getting things working on Linux.) With Quake3, Loki took that job and put out a special Linux edition. The special Linux edition isn't all that special. You get a tin box, and the cd has the linux biniaries instead of the windows biniaries. The CD still works on any platform once you download the point release. I got the Linux version, but played under windows for some time before I got 3D working under Linux.

    BioWare has the right idea with Neverwinter Nights. Design the game for cross platform from the ground up. With that design, there is minimal effort in getting the game running on four platforms. Should keep the patch levels unified across platforms as well. The ability to move between platforms will be nice. I'm sure BioWare will include support for EAX, and I've found that those audio extentions add something special to the game, and are just darn cool. I don't expect they work on Linux anytime soon however, so maybe I'll want to boot into windows from time to time.

    Another hurdle with the port the windows code that recently came to light is voice communication. From what I know (and I could be wrong) Tribes 2 has intigrated voice communication, but the Windows version and Linux version are incompatible. (Should be fixed in a later patch.) Big bummer. I use Roger-Wilco all the time with Counter-Strike. Linux needs something similar that is compatible.

    Sometimes it's the little things that make or break a title/company/etc. Loki definitly has the big things taken care of, but some of those small details get overlooked all too often...

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