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Games Entertainment

X-server for PS2 157

Posted by michael from the don't-ask-why---ask-why-not dept.
PineGreen writes: "Alllinuxdevices.com has a story today about Metrolink porting their Micro-X server to Playstation2. Sony still refuses to sell their Linux kit outside Japan, and the Blockman Trading version works on PSOne only. Now, when will I have an excuse to buy a PS2?"
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X-server for PS2

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  • Of course, having an X server for PS/2 is nice, but it's not exactly crucial. Price is also an issue, so I hope that the XF86 team would produce something free if the need arises.

    One thing that people seldom realise is that there are numerous ways to use even the oddest devices. But considering the PS/2, an elaborate GUI (that could result from putting a desktop environment on top of X) will not be so useful because of the TV display issues.

    Naturally, this could change by the time when HDTV comes, but then from the other point of view, we shall have had a PS/3 by that time.

    • Without an X server for the PS2, _really_ is pointless. You can get more computing power for the same price. The reason anyone would buy a PS2 is that it's a special computer designed for doing graphics. They have done hardware optomization on par with Carmack's software optomization.

      So buying on of these and doing nothing with it but running a terminal would be kind of silly...unless of course you want to go and to tons of graphics programming in SVGAlib.

      • Well, there is no law that says you need to run X to do graphics. In fact, for many purposes, linuxfb + OpenGL would be far preferable to lugging around the bloat of an X server, even one as small as this. The PS/2 is seriously lacking in RAM for a general purpose device. If you are only going to run one application/one window at a time, X is mostly wasted space.
        • I agree. As I understand it, X was not originally designed to be a desktop GUI environment for a single machine anyway, but rather to serve other computers.

          The current trend of trying to turn X into the next Windows does not seem like an extremely profitable one and it certainly wouldn't work well in an environment with limited RAM and single application needs like a ps2-turned-development-machine would be.

  • Problems with the PS2 linux... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 11, 2001 @03:02PM (#2116347)
    I've been reading about the PS2 Linux on some Japanese sites and find the whole thing leaving a bad taste in my mouth. This version on Linux is not free (as in freedom) as you think. 1) First and foremost you have to sign a Non-Discosure agreement when you purchase the system. Because the PS2 is a closed system, Sony will like to keep it that way. 2) You have no access to the CD/DVD-ROM, firmware drivers, or bootsystem. Making a stand-alone app is impossable. 3) Anything that uses sound/graphics/BIOS routines but be done through a closed source staticly-linked lib. It is illigal to redistibute this. 4) The system requres a boot CD-ROM which you also cannot redistibute. 5) The video out reqires a moniter that can use video sync pulses only from the green channel. The PS2 does not use a normal RGB out as it will cause the DVD Macrovision not to work. 6) Odds are Sony will not release this in America beacuse America is too friendly to hackers that like to reverse-engineer things. (Sony v. Bleem & Sony v. Connectix)
    • Heh, sounds like a good use for the 20" sync-on-green workstation monitor I bought for $20.
    • 1) I don't know if they're making you sign an NDA. I've been allowed to talk about the unit at this point.

      2) Yes, you are correct. You can not make a stand alone app. They only allow their CD/DVDs to work. You have no access to firmware and boot. This is Sony's bread and butter and they do want to protect it. If you can make a stand alone app you don't have to pay them royaltees. Royaltees are how they make money. Good or bad, that's how it works.

      3) That's not correct. You get full system/programming documentation and get direct access to the sound and graphics. You get very low level libraries, so it isn't very friendly but you can do it. If I recall correctly nothing is statically linked.

      4) Yep. Again, this goes back to #2.

      5) Yes, it uses sync-on-green. That used to be a standard. It's not really a protection scheme. In fact, I suspect they just don't have enough lines to put the sync anywhere else.

      6) Sony is looking at releasing it in the US. I have no information on how that's going. My guess is that it went over well enough in Japan that they'll do it here. If they were worried about hacking they wouldn't have released it in japan.

  • OK, this has been bothering me for some time now... WHY? What's the use of putting Linux on a PS2? Just because? I have a toaster that anyone is welcome to try installing Linux on Just Because. For the same price of a PS2, you can get the parts to make a more robust Linux box (or I'm certain all you DIY Linux people already have the parts sitting around to build at least 2 Linux servers). It's a damn game console. If someone needs an excuse to buy a PS2, it should be because they want to play games, not try to cobble together a Linux box on a platform that's not really expandable or particularly robust for the OS.
  • I don`t own a game console, but before I heard Dreamcast was going under, I almost bought theirs just for tinkering with Linux on it.
    If Sony releases a Linux Kit for the US, then I`d buy one of theirs since I still don`t have one.
    Till then, I probably won`t bother making that decision.
  • You have to buy the PS2 devel kit (only if you are in .jp) - $250

    You have to buy this X server which you know isn't going to come cheap. - $$$

    Now, explain to me how the PS2 (which is already a computer that carries a decent price) would be a viable platform for home Internet/set-top box technology..

    I still feel that a computer w/a small size and Linux/Windows would still be less money than a PS2+goodies.
    • And it would probably be a better computer too. I thought that the PS2 contained a 350Mhz processor, so any new pc would be better than the PS2.
      • Yes, but you are forgetting that a PS2 is a relatively clean design with (IIRC) a 128 bit data bus all round the system, compared to a PC which has to support all sorts of legacy stuff at a crippling cost in speed, with buses from 8 through 64 bits.

        Also the CPU of a PS/2 is a nice RISC processor and comparing clock to clock doesn't cut it.I think you should regard the processor as about equivalent to 700MHz or perhaps even 1GHz equivalent in terms of clock warzzz.
    • Sorry, you don't have to buy the X server. It comes with XFree 3.3.6. I should know. I've got a japanese playstation running Linux in my bedroom. Any other questions?
  • I work retail selling games and systems. Joe blow has been suckered by M$ again. I have the exact same discussion two or three times a day whay the xbox is not god. These mindless minions see 733Mhz vs. 300Mhz. Thats it. They hear nVidia, and drool. Why? Because M$ is paying GameStop (formerly Babbages, formerly Software ETC. formerly...)Big ass bucks to hype the box. Yeas it's going to look great. Until it blue screens. Now what does all this have to do with running linux on the PS2? A lot of you have the toaster mentality, Sure I can give my toaster an ip, but why? Same reason to all that. Why the hell not? I have no illusions, I don't think this will replace those pretty sgi machines they show off on the local weather report, but put these in schools for a whole lot less than apple has been extorting out of the educaton system, and boom. Computer literate kids. Wow what a concept. I'm not talking about future MCSE's who can click in all the right places, but people who actually know how to use the tools. Computers are tools. And just like my wrench set, my linux box dosen't need constant supervision and intervention just to do the job. The windows box at work while supposedly faster and with twice the memory can't pull up IE in less than the time it takes for my box to load the newest mozilla build. and we all know how fsckn long that takes... My point is, well hell, I didn't really have one...
  • consoles are sold as a platform for running games.
    they should give the consoles away. the real money does NOT come from the hardware. it comes from software. They charge for the box to get money upfront to cover initial development and actual build/ship costs. After they recoup these costs it is all gravy.

    Remember back to BillG vs. IBM RE: dos and windows

    IBM thought it was all about the hardware.
    Gates knew it was all about the software.

    If you can run linux chances are high that you will also write or use free or at least non-sony software. This translates to Sony making less money from licensing of software for their boxes.

    Hence they will wait as long as possible.
    Or, even longer.
  • ...you can't get the Japanese Linux kit, is because it's completely useless unless you have a japanese PS2, due to the differing expansion ports recquired for the hard drive / ethernet unit.

    I have little doubt that when the US/Euro equivalent of that unit is released later this year a translated Linux kit will be made available.
    • check EBay. People are selling Japanese PS2's like crazy...I doubt it will be much longer before the Linux Kits start showing up.

      Thing is, if you wanna use it, you sorta gotta know Japanese ;-)

    • The fact that Sony is currently 'evaluating' whether or not it is profitable to release the system doesn't seem like a very good sign in its favor. In fact I tend to think that this is probably vaporware and importing a japanese ps2 and development kit is as close as you'll get to Linux on PS2 (or at least the official Sony Linux; what others do is up to them!).

      Traditionally in the videogame business, there have been many products that were released only in Japan, including both hardware and games. Usually the companies cited economic reasons for not bringing the products over here (they didn't they would sell well).
  • "Now, when will I have an excuse to buy a PS2?"

    Have you played NBA Street? :)

  • Q: Now, when will I have an excuse to buy a PS2?"

    When Metal Gear Solid 2 comes out! everyone knows that.
  • Consoles are very standardised. This means you slap in a CD and *it just works*. They all behave the same too, no performance surprises. Now imagine a postscript RIP and print server that *just works* with cheap USB printers. Imagine a fileserver that *just works*, doing RAID on firewire disks. imagine all these one-function CDs that can be made !
    The Linux PS2 is not a great computer, but you can be sure you will have *zilch* install problems. I took 3 days of typing strange hex numbers to install my latest server with redhat (ultra 66 problems). And another 2 hours to get X up. I would gladly hav bought a PS2 in it place, just for the time savings.
    • but people here bitch endlessly about them, too.

      The iMac and original 128K Mac follow this philosophy exactly: like a game console, it's a tight box, more like an applicance.

      As I said in an earlier discussion here, console generations are around 5 years long, and I should damn well expect them to be. Look at the first year PS games, then at the last year PS games: the difference is amazing, and goes to show what happens when a developer has 3 or 4 years to optimize and tweak for a standardized hardware set.

      I don't know about anyone else, but if my home computers don't get at least 3 years of daily usage, something's wrong.

    • No, it doesn't *just work*. Consoles are essentially computers with identical hardware, and the OS burned into ROM. Installing an alternate OS is going to require configuration and tweaking. Software doesn't magically become stable, self-installing and self-configuring just because you're running it on a dedicated games platform. If that was the case, everyone would be running their server on Dreamcasts.
      • I think what he was trying to say was that you dont have to go through all the trouble worrying about all the millions of different hardware setups people might have. You write a program and it will work exactly the same on every single computer.
  • I think being able to use a PS2 as a graphical terminal for PC is kind of nice and handy at times.

    But rather than some possibly expensive, commercial X server, I wouldn't mind having VNC for the PS2. Not only would that probably be a lot easier to develop, configure and use, it would also work with both Windows and UNIX machines on the back-end.

  • A couple of points wrt both the story itself and some of the comments others have made:
    • The "article" on alllinuxdevices doesn't actually say that this X server needs Linux to run. Maybe that's 100% certain and obvious to everyone with experience with Metro Link's products, but it sure isn't to me. What if they've written an X server to run "natively" on the PS2? Not obviously useful, but certainly cool. Coupled with a USB keyboard+mouse, and some form of network adapter (either USB or the "real" Ethernet adapter) that could turn the PS2 into some weird form of X terminal...
    • Some people are sounding awfully sceptical, for no apparent reason. Metro Link is a commercial company. If they think there's a market for a PS2 X server, then why shouldn't they be free to try and sell one? It's not as if it costs you anything that they're trying (unless you're a stock owner, heh).
    • From what I know of the PS2's graphics hardware, it might be less than straight-forward to implement an X server using e.g. texture mapped polygons for windows (because of texture size limits, among other things). However, with those 38.4 GB/s of framebuffer bandwidth, it might be possible to make it pretty snappy anyway. ;^)
  • If you want to tinker with Linux on a game set-top box, get a Dreamcast. Althought the PS2 is a cool thing, use it for games. That's what it's made for. --Ted
    • Althought the PS2 is a cool thing, use it for games. That's what it's made for

      Suggesting the Dreamcast isn't... actually your right :-)

    • Re:PS2 for...what? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GMC-jimmy ( 243376 )
      When I was in highschool, we took an old `76 Pinto, and modified it to hold a V-8, and worked it into a... well, sort of a hotrod.. which is where I first learn to work on my own car.

      The rest of the students and I had a blast watching that old car take the 1/4 mile in just over 12 seconds.

      Now think of all the fun and education I would`ve missed out on, if we had just stuck with using that car for what it was `made for`.


      Be different.
      Have fun.
      Enjoy life.
    • Dreamcast is dead now. Better let's wait for Nokia terminal...
  • I'm curious.. maybe I missed it someplace, but why are they refusing to sell the linux kit outside of japan? Is there some sort of thing in it that makes it so that its not distributable or something?
    • aren't they require to distribute the source publicly? it is linux so that is GPL.

      • Re:Why dont they sell outside of japan? (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        This is a source of many misunderstandings with the GPL. It does not require anyone to "publically" distribute anything; you merely need to provide with the binary distribution a written offer (valid for a minimum of 3 years) of at-cost distribution of the source to any third party. This means that the offer is only distributed to those who get the binary distribution. In any case, the presence of GPL is not a guarantee of public distribution, even though it encourages it. Furthermore, Linux kernel modules do not fall under GPL (at least AFAIK, I've seen no lawsuits against the makers of VMWare et. al.), so Sony probably just threw any interesting PS2-specific ultra-nifty code into a binary-only kernel module, (or a userland library, which is explicitly not required to be GPL according to Linux's license) which they don't have to release the source to.
    • Apparently the Japanese version has more hardware standard like a hard drive and some other cool gizmos. The US version with a kernel on it is pretty crippled as compared to theirs. They wont sell theyre kit in the US until theyre sure theres enough interest I guess.
      • The Japanese version does not come with a hard drive. The Linux Kit includes a combo hard drive/ethernet, mouse, keyboard, video/audio adapter, and Linux DVD.

        The main difference between the Jap version is that everything is in Japanese. The other big thing is that some Jap versions come with a Type III PCMCIA slot, which Sony had scrapped in favor of some proprietary interface long before the PS2 began selling in the US.

    • It has top secret military uses. . . Saddham would love it!
  • You should buy a PS2 if you want to play games for it, or if you have an urge to pay for an X server when there are plenty of free ones available for platforms more suitable to non-gaming uses.

    I'd buy one for GT3 and ZOE, but that's me.

  • Why? (Score:2, Troll)

    by Warin ( 200873 )
    All right...

    Why on earth would anyone buy a PS2, plus the Linux kit? You can cobble together a PC out of used parts that will perform at LEAST as well as the PS2 linux box for a lot less. And if you arent already technically proficient with PC hardware, building a machine will help you learn those skills rather than just plugging together the PS2 black boxes.

    Just because something can be doen, doesn't mean that it makes sense to do it.

    Or is this one of the He who has the most toys wins' sort of things? Sometimes it makes me want to cry...

    • Er, no you can't. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by oGMo ( 379 ) on Saturday August 11, 2001 @03:11PM (#2124244)

      The PS2 has a 256-bit pipeline, a specialized graphics CPU, and basically enough bandwidth to make your PC look like a gameboy. You could "cobble together" one of these as a Linux workstation for $500 ($300 PS2, $200 linux kit, including hdd, eth, Linux, X, GL and everything you need to program it, including the bare specialized hardware... and that's before any rumored price drop). The system would rival a SGI workstation for realtime graphics processing power. For $500. (Of course, you need to throw in some software, but you need to do that with the SGI's, too.) You could barely buy a GeForce3 for that. The PC solution would cost at least a grand, and wouldn't be nearly as powerful.

      Sony is already making high end boxes using 8x of the CPUs in a PS2. Licensing the CPU technology. Just think of the PS2 + Linux as the "low end" graphics workstation, perfect for hobbiests, small businesses, etc.

      It's not a toy by any means. Just because they market it to play games, doesn't mean there's not some serious technology in this box.

      • The PS/2 doesn't make a graphics workstation just because you throw linux on there. Bandwidth smandwith it doesn't HAVE ENOUGH RAM, nor does it have enough power to do rendering of images.

        for 500 bucks i can have a Athlon 1.3 ghz, 266 mhz bus, 512 megs ram, 40 gig drive and a Geforce 2 MX with 64 megs of ram that will *SMOKE* a PS in rendering, gaming, graphics and speed. Oh yeah, throw in a CDROM, Ethernet, Soundcard nad your still cheaper then a PS2 (with linux kit, hard drive, modem, ethernet, keyboard, mouse.. blah blah).

        • Not enough RAM my ass. I have a PS2 and it contains 32 megabytes of RAM. I've been playing Gran Turismo 3 a hell of a lot lately, it's addictive as heroin. Get this; when you do a 20 lap race, there are 5 other cars with real-time reflection mapping on the windsheilds, the body, and so on. There are windmills turning in the background. You can actually watch your tires turn according to the controls and bounce up and down in the wheel well during a bumpy road in a rally coarse.

          Now for the grand finale; all twenty laps (in this example) are stored in less than a meg of RAM! Every car on the track has this level of detail stored in the replay, and it takes up (on average) 100-400 kilobytes on your memory stick. The console programmers know how to squeeze everything they need out of the "small" amount of memory in their systems.

          As for rendering images, I highly recommend that you walk into a Futureshop or Sony store and try out this game (or any others) to see how badly this system gives computers a thrashing. Besides, it also has a DVD player and an incredible Dolby digital sound chip. I was a massive PC gaming buff until I picked up this bad-ass machine - and I still haven't looked back.

          • he, he. Okay, I would like to see a link to prove that all of that fits in a meg of ram. Maybe you can "save" it in that amount of memory on a memory stick, but that doesn't mean that's how much the game is using while you're playing it. Secondly, the reason that developers can do such amazing things with consoles is that they have a unified development platform. There were games on the original playstation that were as good and better than the crop of pc games at the time, and no fool would have argued that the psx graphics processor was better than a GeForce DDR. However, since the developers didn't have to worry about their users having 5 different types of processors and graphics cards with varying amounts of memory and RAM, they could really squeeze all the power out of that little box and do some amazing things with it. The same thing applies to the ps2 (and I don't think developers have even begun to squeeze all the power they can out of it). However, all this is irrelevant to the current thread of conversation because we're talking about graphics workstations and development, not what the finished product can look like. No real developer here or in Japan has EVER developed real games on a ps2 or psx (remember the Yarooze?). No, they used high-powered computers because those machines could render things in real time as they were being developed much faster than the game consoles could. Even assuming that the console COULD render faster, there's a huge software hurdle. There's an awesome amount of development tools for computers that no one is going to take the time to reproduce on a ps2. Maya, Lightwave, 3d Studio Max, etc., etc. So, I would say in conclusion that yes linux on the ps2 is cool and would be fun to tinker with, but it certainly doesn't make it a graphics workstation or even a serious development platform.

        • Re:Er, no you can't. (Score:1, Offtopic)

          by mosch ( 204 )
          things you listed -- $447
          • Athlon 1.3Ghz w/mobo -- $192
          • 512 megs of DDR -- $82
          • 40 Gig hd -- $95
          • Geforce 2 MX -- $78
          things you didn't -- $240
          • Case + power supply -- $35
          • Firewire port -- $20
          • Keyboard -- $40
          • Mouse -- $40
          • Gamepads -- $40
          • Sound card -- $35
          • upgrade to include TV output on video, seeing as you neglected to include the cost of a monitor, or a KVM -- $30
          Total : $687

          But wait... a playstation 2 lets 2 people play games against each other no problem. PC games all seem to require multiple computers for that too... so let's assume you only have one friend, and we'll double it.

          Total Cost : $1374

          but wait... now we need two NICs and a crossover cable.

          Total Cost : $1424

          Shit, you got a second friend. He wants to play too. Now you need 3 patch cables, another NIC, a hub and another machine.

          Total Cost: $2241

          So for $2241, you have a multiplayer gaming system that rivals... a $400 ps2 based setup. except it's a pain in the ass to setup, takes a ton of space, uses about 850 watts more power, and isn't as much fun as having your friends all huddled around one TV.

          • That $400 PS2 doesn't include a large screen TV which is necessary to accommodate a 2-4 splitscreen setup for multiplayer. Ever played Goldeneye on a 20" TV with 3 other people? Would you take an iPaq to a Quake lan party?
            • Okay, well in that case we need to include a few monitors in the computer setup as well. Let's call it $500 a monitor, adding $1500 to the total. And then for the PS2 side, get a nice big 36" Sony WEGA for $1500. the price gap remains, except with the PS2 solution you've now got a dope TV, with the PC solution you've got some pointless 21 inch monitors.
          • That $500 PS2 setup is using a television for your video. I'm not sure anyone in their right might would want to use a "workstation" by connecting it to their tv- that might've been tolerable 12 years ago on an Amiga, but today with 19" monitors running for $300 or so?

            Those are some expensive Mice/keyboards to run $80.
            Plus, we're talking about a workstation, not a game box. So what's the need for a gamepad?

        • This isn't a renderfarm node, it'd be a workstation. That's the thing you do your modelling work on.

          The Emotion Engine CPUs blow away a GeForce3, to speak nothing of a crappy GeForce2 MX. (I've got a gf2mx, in addition to rendering quality being crap, full of artifacts, it's generally not all that fast.) If you want a renderfarm box, the best video card in the world is irrelevant, because the rendering would be done in software, not realtime. (For this, yes, a stripped-down Athlon with fast ethernet and a local disk cache would be the way to go.)

          But you can't put together a PC to touch a PS2 for realtime rendering. Those specialized CPU's are what make all the difference. Higher MHz ratings are completely irrelevant here.

          RAM might need addressing, but then again if you make a specialized modelling suite (or adapt one), you should be able to work within the given constraints. (Remember, you can stream geometry and textures as you're rendering; keeping everything in RAM isn't necessary.)

          Oh, and the $200 kit included keyboard, mouse, and svga adaptor (in addition to hdd and ethernet). It already has a DVD/CD-ROM, sound, USB, firewire. There's no way you can throw together a system (even a generic one, ignoring the special graphics and sound effects capabilities of the PS2), minus the monitor, for $500, that would approach the completeness of the PS2 solution.

          • This isn't a renderfarm node, it'd be a workstation. That's the thing you do your modelling work on.
            Yeah. And you never run test renders on a workstation. Ever. No, you send everything to PRMan at once to make the finished render.
            RAM might need addressing, but then again if you make a specialized modelling suite (or adapt one), you should be able to work within the given constraints. (Remember, you can stream geometry and textures as you're rendering; keeping everything in RAM isn't necessary.)
            32 MB RAM is _nothing_ for 3D graphics workstation use. One may be able to create a small low-poly model of some sort as well as fit the 3d program in RAM, but if you have ever worked with 3D projects of some size you'd know how easy a model suddenly becomes large in size, 40 MB or more is not unusual. And that's only the wireframe, textures have to be stored in main RAM or video RAM while you preview the shaded/textured model and when it's rendering.

            That's not to say the PS2 (or at least the emotion engine) has no potential, Sony was (or is) working on a 3D/graphics visualizer (not a workstation, but a machine for previewing 3D graphics in real-time, full-resolution) based on the PS2 CPUs, called GSCube (link [eetimes.com]).
          • The PS2 can do 6.2 GFLOPS. The GeForce3 can 76 GFLOPS.

            I agree with you tho about it being the best possibility for the price. 300 for the PS2, 200 for the kit, and then pick your price for a monitor. That makes a fully complete PS2 WORKSTATION.

            Now then about the porting. Sony released the Japanese version after around 8,000 people registered in an internet poll. So far the US poll has near 16,000. So I suspect that they will be releasing it sometime in the near future.

            Even if they don't, we now have an X server for it, which was going to be the hardest part anyways. Its a MIPS proc, so we can always cross compile for that, but there was no way anyone was going to get the video specs from Sony to write an X Server for it (it'd still be nice to have it in XFree tho).

            The next steps are as follows:
            1. Hack (eg, solder) together some hardware for it. This is a difficult step, since Sony replaced the Type III PCMCIA Slot found in early Japanese models with some sort of proprietary interface the likes of which I've never before seen. Since we can't very well do anything with that, we should probably pursue Firewire and USB solutions for everything.
            2. "Everything" includes hard drive, ethernet, mouse, keyboard, and joystick, among others. At some point the BIOS will have to be flashed in order make the box boot these things at start up.
            3. An interesting idea would be to have the BIOS check the memory cards for kernels, and if not present, boot in regular fashion. The idea of having my favorite kernels on a memory card is just neat (carry your kernel in your pocket...).
            4. We need device drivers for firewire hard drive, etc. Not an easy task.
            5. Cross-compile gcc and install it on the box. Once this is done, we can install things like RPM etc, and then build distros.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GMC-jimmy ( 243376 )
      Not everything has to `make sense`.

      Sometimes it`s just out of fun.

      Another thing on my wish-list is a Linux based PDA.
      • Another thing on my wish-list is a Linux based PDA.

        The iPaq's a pretty sweet linux-based PDA; run QPE and ya get most of the same toys that WinCE comes with, too. Get the new ones and ya have enough RAM to run stuff like Mozilla, too (and with a PCMCIA NIC in the extra sleeve, you can do actual browsing). [though, of course, Konq/embedded is probably a better browser for that particular environment].

      • There is a Linux Based PDA.

        It's called Agenda [agendacomputing.com]
      • See, I can see the sense of a Linux based PDA.

        Unless of course it sucks as badly as Pocket PC/CE *evil grin*

        But the PS2 is a console, and what you can do with it can be acomplished with cheaper PC Hardware. I guess if your idea of fun is to spend a lot of cash just so you can say you did it..then go for it.

        As for PDA's, if they made a better cursor control on the Ipaq I'd buy one in a second. That way I could play all my favourite's with MAME.

        • Re:Why? (Score:1)

          by cduffy ( 652 )
          Not necessarily. If you've got any 3D projects which the vector processors help out with (and don't mind coding assembly versions of some of your inner-loop routines), the PS2 can be one heckuva buy. For that matter, I've got a friend who bought one because he enjoys low-level MIPS programming (sick bastard he is) and is using it as a development box to develop a framebuffer driver, and eventually maybe a VSTA port. I don't class this in with doing something "so you can say you did it".

          Unless you need high-speed general-purpose computing, I really do very seriously doubt that an off-the-shelf PC solution can be made to best these things. Their graphics bus is insanely fast, and the specialized hardware is really quite sweet. Remember, as well, that it's necessary to throw in a DVD player with the cost of any "comparable" PC.

      • make sense does not exist. All I know is make install, make clean, make bzImage, make dep, make zImage, and make menuconfig.

    • One good reason to buy a PS2 + Linux kit is to do architecture or compiler research on floating-point SIMD units, that may require measurements on real hardware. If the goal is to make a table comparing the four popular floating-point SIMD sidecards (SSE2, 3DNow!, Altivec, and Emotion Engine), the PS2 + Linux kit is the cheapest way to get the fourth column of the table.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by VFVTHUNTER ( 66253 )
      As a simple example, consider LAN parties. Instead of having to lug around a minitower, you can simply bring your small PS2, running linux and all versions of Quake. Plus, it's got tons of graphics computing power. And Sony even sells really nice backpacks to hold the box. So load your computer into your backpack, put your LCD in one hand, and off you go.

      And when everyone is bored from getting fragged, you can play GT3 ;-)

      For the home entertainment enthusiasts, having Linux on the PS2 means they can browse the web from their TV without having to A) get up and go to their computer or B) have a computer in their home entertainment center.

    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by PineGreen ( 446635 )
      Yep, you are absolutelly right, I could put together a cheap x-terminal out of an old 486, or even simpler buy an old Tektronix, and I can get new pentium machine for the price of PS2+linux kit. But, the only useful things I do with computer at home is write a latex document every now and then, check my email and surf a bit. I could do all this with a 486 as well, couldn't I? Why do I want to have a kinky gnome desktop when it really isn't that much more *useful* than twm? Because it's fun. Admittedly, we all use good machines because they are fun. And I think hacking a PS2 would be fun. You could write incredible demos using its powerful graphics or try to run N64 emulator on it. (Remember what people did with commodore 64 - today you can stretch hardware to that extend, simply because dirty trick wouldn't work your neighbour's machine; PS2 would be a chance to do some real messing on a chip level again...)
  • I'd install a PSX emulator on it so I could play the games that the PS2's built-in emulator has problems with (like, say, Final Fantasy Anthology).
  • But wouldnt it be great to put linux onto the X-Box when its released? Throw something like that into Microsoft's face. Die Microsft, Die.
    • Heh that is why the X-Box is still not released yet. I can just imagine the discussions going on right now...

      Drone #1: Our box needs to kick ass, or we lose big time. The guys over in the hype machine have set the bar seriously high!

      Drone #2: That means that it needs to almost be a PC because it is what we do best, besides everyone knows it is going to be one because it comes from us.

      #1: That's ok, we will make it up on the licensing. Thats how those Sony and Nintendo guys do it.

      #2: For that it has to be closed. Damn! that means we have to get it right the first time. No upgrades...

      #1: We can use the expansion port! Everyone has one on their systems right?

      #2: Not everybody buys them though. Expansions make it messy for the dev guys. Remember they said they would port if the environment was stable. If it gets ugly they will probably just stick to the PC. Better make sure we are covered on the hardware front and just take the hit on the price. We have deep pockets it will be ok. Remember they did say 'at any cost'!

      #1: What if we don't have the best games? Damn Sony and their contracts! The bigger the initial loss the more games we have to sell.

      #2: Are you kidding? We have great games. Between Sega, the PC ports, and those cool guys over at the Microsoft Game development team, our games are going to rock!

      #1: Ok, we are covered on the games. Sounds good! --Wait! What about all those hippy Open Source Linux running geeks! They are going to make webservers, mp3 players, emulators and all sorts of things on cheap hardware we paid for! What about that!

      #2: Linux does not run on Xbox, whats the big deal? Quit worrying.

      #1: Man, Linux runs on everything! It's even on a wristwatch for Gods' sake! You don't get outside the campus enough.

      #2: We will just have to make sure it will never run. We can encrypt the ROM and CPU like they do with some of the Arcade games. That combined with special hardware will make it tough. Who said you get to leave? Running Linux are ya?

      #1: No, never... but it's all over the web, just look at Slashdot. There are ports mentioned every couple of weeks! Besides, if our stuff runs, then they can look at that to make their stuff go too. We would just be adding to the price in order to put them off.

      #2: Slashdot-Trashdot, that is why the DMCA was passed remember? You worry too much.

      #1: So does that mean we have to include a contract that requires owners of an Xbox to buy our games? That is not going to make us look good at the DOJ.

      #2: Ok here's the plan. Every Xbox connects to a phone line and we set up a new free online service like Sega did with PSO Online. When the machine comes on it checks its boot media, if a non Microsoft OS is there, it stops and reminds the users of their duty as a citizen to follow the DMCA.

      #1: That does not sound like a very fun game machine. Tech support is going to kill us. They are already buried with product activation, this will send them through the roof. Ever talk to a pissed off Apple user. Clueless and angry, enough to drive you nuts. They are nothing compared to the parents who have to call about the game machine they bought to keep their kids busy!

      #2: It will be fine. Lots of things connect to the phone these days. Don't worry about it. Look at all those cable users with a phone line on their box. The geeks even like their TVIO machines with a phone line.

      #1: The new rage is cell phones, college kids all over the place don't even have a normal phone, and how are you going to do game parties.

      #2: lets call Bill and Steve. They can tell us what to do.

      Bill & Steve: IF LINUX RUNS ON THAT AND I SEE WEBSITES RUNNING ON MY OWN DAMN MACHINE TELLING ME I SUCK, YOU TWO ARE TOAST. GET IT RIGHT AT ANY COST!

      #1 & #2: !?!

    • rob... could we get a score:6,brilliant over here??? Let's all get one of those 'almost PC' boxes (they look really cool, let's be honoust folks) which they make no money on (all from licenses and stuff, correct me if i'm wrong) and use them for everything (webservers, rendering farms, video/mp3 players etc etc) except for what they were sold for... games designed for the X-box... Let's play xbill on it all day !!... This is a great idea !! Let's do it !!!
      • Sorry to burst your bubble dude but Microsoft learned the lesson that Sony didn't. They're retailing the XBox for 299$ which is about the same price (currently) as a PS2. However contrary to the PS2's initial release Microsoft is filling their box with well known and relatively commodity hardware. The main part of the lesson Sony did not learn was to have the ability to supply demand for your product. Microsoft's got two manufacturing facilities so far, one in Mexico and one in Hungary with one in Asia pending. American and European XBoxes will be coming from their respective continents which reduces much of the overhead that Sony has to pay for in shipping boxes in from overseas. All things considered I don't see Microsoft actually losing money on the XBox so every one you buy is putting some money back in their pocket. Buy one and stick Linux on it if you want but you're still bending over for the shaft that is Microsoft corporation.

  • Sony's Linux Comes with XFree 3.3.6 (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Caballero ( 11938 ) <daryll@noSPAM.daryll.net> on Saturday August 11, 2001 @03:57PM (#2146421) Homepage
    There seems to be some real confusion here. The Sony PS2 Linux comes with XFree 3.3.6 running on their hardware.

    Metrolink is selling their Micro-X product. That's based on XFree 4.0 and runs in a much smaller footprint. You don't need it, but with the memory limits of the PS2 it's not a bad idea.

    I've got a Japanese PS2 running Linux, so if people have questions, maybe I should do a more complete piece on Slashdot. I did a presentation for my local users group not long ago that could be adapted.

  • bought a copy of the linux/ps2 cd and brought it here? Now, what I don't know about linux could fill the library of congress but if linux is so uber why hasn't someone just ported it to US ps2's?

    ps: If the answer involves a part of the Sony distro that is closed, please tell me to shut up.(don't forget reverse engineering!)

  • "Now, when will I have an excuse to buy a PS2?"

    Maybe when they come out with this game [ebgames.com] for the Playstation 2 platform:
    "This is it! Your chance to experience the high-stress world of being an Air Traffic Controller with ATC Simulator - the most complete and most authentic Air Traffic Control simulator ever released for the personal computer."

    Oh the glory, the money, the excitement, the women, now I can live the life of an air traffic controller right from my own bedroom! Move over Everquest, I have a new addiction to feed!

    Sorry yea I know this is a little offtopic, but I was beside myself when I saw this game on EB's website.
  • I am sure that Sony just does not want mass world-wide distribution of this kit for fear that hackers will get a hold of it and use it against Sony. I ca't see any other viable reason for Sony's actions.
  • How many PS2 Linux Kit would sell here in the US?
    It'll be a small percentage of the installed base.
    Granted that there'll be people buying PS2 for the Linux Kit, but it'll be really minimal by comparison. Then again, the Linux Kit will shape the future of coming Playstation (PS3, PS4, ....PS9).
  • First off it's Metro Link - two words.

  • Can someone explain why anyone would want to put the wonderful graphics hardware in a PS2 to use displaying inherently ugly X windows? I much prefer the sunrays in GT3. :)

  • Sony's still mapping the interest for Linux (Score:3, Informative)

    by sph ( 35491 ) on Saturday August 11, 2001 @04:54PM (#2153684)
    Since Slashdot rejected my submission several days ago, I have to remind that Sony Computer Entertainment Europe is now mapping the interest for PS2-Linux release in Europe, Australia and other SCEE regions as well. Also the interest registration for the US (which was noted by Slashdot here [slashdot.org]) is still up and running.

    So if you want to see Linux on PS2 outside Japan, do your share and register here [scee.net] for European version or here [scea.com] for American version. And remember, this is only to see if there's interest, so the registrations don't commit either side to anything.

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