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Games Entertainment

XBox Defects Draw Ire 479

Posted by timothy from the everyone's-a-critic dept.
jeffy124 writes: "An article at CNN indicates that the XBox is having problems with defects. But the defects aren't the problem, the issue is lousy customer support from Microsoft's repair contractors, which is really what's more annoying to those who got defective units. Customer support has been giving out conflicting advice and some customers are having their support records lost."
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XBox Defects Draw Ire More

XBox Defects Draw Ire

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  • That would explain why they're getting "lost" anyway. The support folks probably can't figure out how to search backwards. God I hate that software!

  • My Buddy's XBOX died. (Score:3, Informative)

    by MikeDataLink ( 536925 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:11AM (#2792918) Homepage Journal
    My best friends XBOX died last week. He's already received a replacement. I'd say it took about two days.

    My XBOX has been working flawlessly though. :)
  • ..after all they've been making TOYS for years!
  • The stakes are high for Microsoft, which shipped about 1.5 million Xboxes over the holidays.

    And then in a later paragraph...

    Microsoft sales and marketing director John O'Rourke said fewer than 1 percent of the consoles have proven faulty.

    Thats a hell of a lot (15,000) of people with faulty Christmas presents really. I'm surprised there hasnt been more publicity than this if that many are faulty.

    Have any slashdotters reading this actually had any experience with faulty XBoxes?

  • Why not exchange it at the store? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DaSyonic ( 238637 ) <DaSyonic@@@yahoo...com> on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:15AM (#2792932) Homepage
    I can't possibly understand why they would go through the trouble of calling customer support when they could go back to the store and get an exchange. Even software (which is notorious of being a 'No Refunds' purchase) can be exchanged for the same title if defective.

    Even if I purchased online I'd call the people I bought it from; not MS customer support. Ugh, some people...
    • Try it after 30 days and see if you get anywhere.
    • Well, it depends on where you go. I work at an FYE (aka Saturday Matinee, The Wall, Record Town... same company and I've worked for them all) where the official policy is that any hardware issues with game systems is the responsibility of the manufacturer and not ours. This is understandable as the margins on game systems are next to nothing and its not worth more losses in terms of time and effort excluding the fact that the company probably is reimbursed for defective merchandise. Now that's not to say that we don't always refuse a return, pretty much that depends on the manager on duty and the circumstances.

      Also, on a completely side and off-topic note... I just found out that FYE's parent company TWEC just signed a major deal with MSN to become its provider of music and movies location. Also we will be getting a number of kiosks for previewing movies and music on, each one running XP... shoot me now, please. So now I am part of the evil empire. I can use a Mac, refuse to fix my roommates horrible Compaq, but MS will find some way to get you. *sigh*

    • Stores were told.... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by bdavenport ( 78697 ) <spam@sellthekids.com> on Sunday January 06, 2002 @10:10AM (#2793716) Homepage
      a buddy of mine is the manager of The Game Stop [gamestop.com] (aka Babbages). he told us when we purchased ours (1st release day) that MS wanted all returns to go thourgh their contracted companies. His store (the most active store in Houston) was providing customers with this same info.

      not sure what would happen if an angry customer came in and demanded a new unit within 30 days [gamestop.com], but i do know he was told to refuse giving out his stock as replacements.

      his MS rep told him there were two reasons for this:

      1) giving out a new unit in exchange would lower the Xbox's launch sell total. MS was adamant that they would sell all 1.5 million units pre Dec 31st.

      2) MS wanted to be able to tightly manage returns - which it has greater control over when owners ship their defected units to centralized locations.

      sounds like the contracted company that MS chose sucked. guess i was fortunate...mines been playing 3-5 hours a day for the whole time! :-)

      • Re:Stores were told.... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jcostom ( 14735 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:58PM (#2794249) Homepage
        I purchased an Xbox a couple of weeks before Christmas from my local Target store (at about 11am, when they had about a dozen xboxes on the shelf). I also picked up the Monster 300X+100LX (essentially s-video + optical) connector, to get nice picture with DD5.1. Guess what? The DD5.1 was malfunctioning. I packed up everything and returned to Target the same day at about 4pm. I was first given the song and dance about MS wanted returns to go through them.

        I put it very simply to the sales weasel. It went something like, "I, your customer, spent over $500 of my hard-earned cash this morning in this very store. The product you sold me is defective. Are you refusing to exchange it for a replacement product, which presumably will work? Oh, you are? Get the store manager here, now."

        I explained the situation to the store manager, and outlined what I felt were acceptable options at that point... 1. Exchange the console and make me happy, or 2. Take back the whole lot, games and all, and give me my $500 and change back.

        Funny thing? 5 minutes later, I was walking out of the sture with one of the 3 xboxes that were left. Went home, hooked it up, and the DD5.1 worked great. Bottom line? Stand up for your rights as a customer.

  • All those of us that bought a PSX eary on have seen all the defects we'd ever care to. Ever since then, I just wait for the emulators to be released. Screw all the sneaky console bastards.

  • Is this a problem? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jchawk ( 127686 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:17AM (#2792937) Homepage Journal
    Well my initial response was yeah microsoft sucks, good for them for making crappy hardware. Then I actually read the article. And here's what I discovered.

    "Analysts said the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to spell serious production troubles"

    Well less then 1% of the 1.5 million systems failed. And out of those that did fail only 200 people received bad customer service.

    My question is this, why didn't these people take there X-boxes back to the store immediately. There were plenty of X-boxes to go around, at least where I live. There was really no reason they couldn't have exchanged it.

    If you look at the numbers Nintendo had a similar failure rate with the game cube. Was this news? No and neither is this story.

    I hate microsoft as much or more then most people on slashdot, and I want to see them fail, but this is not failure. This is just the slashdot crowd chomping at the bit and jumping on any little thing.

    • Re:Is this a problem? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by CMiYC ( 6473 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:41AM (#2793016) Homepage
      First I think CNN is making an issue out of nothing. Then come along Slashdot, and we're going to make it even worse. Everything has manufacturing defects and everyone has bad customer support problems. I'm still trying to figure out why these people are sending their stuff back in when Wal-Mart will give you a new one in about 10 minutes.

      • Why would CNN do such a thing? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:52AM (#2793048)
        First I think CNN is making an issue out of nothing.

        AOL/TimeWarner owns CNN.
        AOL doesn't play nice with MS. :)

        I wonder why they'd post such blatant FUD? ;)

        • Re:Why would CNN do such a thing? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward
          Actually it's not CNN, it's the Associated Press that wrote this news piece. This exact article will circulate through hundreds of news organizations and publications.

          Try check the exact article on Microsoft's (and NBC's) own MSNBC.

          http://www.msnbc.com/news/682392.asp

          Sorry not an AOL-Time Warner conspircicy.

    • Re:Is this a problem? (Score:5, Informative)

      by macpeep ( 36699 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @04:34AM (#2793305)
      "Well my initial response was yeah microsoft sucks, good for them for making crappy hardware."

      Of course Microsoft doesn't even make the XBOX. Flextronics does.

  • Probably almost no budget for support (Score:4, Insightful)

    by billmaly ( 212308 ) <bill.maly@m c l e odusa.net> on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:18AM (#2792939)
    I doubt MS has budgeted too much money to after sale support of XBox. Reasoning as follows:

    XBox sells for $300.
    Here's where it get's tricky...quoting consumer prices here, I'm sure MS buys this stuff by the truckload for a lot less...bear with me.

    Processor inside cost $75-100.
    Memory cost $50.
    Hard drive cost $75.
    Misc. hardware cost $50.
    Worst case, that's $275. Add to that the BOX itself, packaging, controllers, docs, etc...we're talking an item with a VERY low profit margin. MS spent some quingillion dollars developing this thing, so obviously, some money will need to be directed to recouping development costs. When all is said and done, I don't think that MS is making a lot of money on each unit.

    Is that an excuse for poor after market service? No, it's a lousy excuse! But, they had a price point they believed they had to hit, and something had to slide for them to hit it. As a tech geek, ask yourself, "Would I rather have a faster processor and more memory, or real good support that I'll probably never need?". Me, I'd pick the hardware and roll the dice on the support.

    Now, I don't believe that MS has tried to make a faulty product...they dove into the console war headfirst, and HAVE to shine right out of the gate, if they don't, major egg on the face. So, it behooves them , as it does any manufacturer, to create a quality product. I'm just stating the facts as I see them, not defending or accusing.
    • Kind of offtopic, but it seems to me that if they had used Athlon's instead of Pentiums they would have had a faster product (selling point to both buyers and developers) and could have sold for less (selling point) than the PS2 making the same amount of money due to the processors being cheaper.
      • Just because Athlons are cheaper than Pentiums doesn't mean that the cost to produce an Athlon is less than that of the Pentium. Intel gets a price premium because of their name, while AMD was sell with smaller profit margins to attempt gain marketshare.

        Microsoft most likely went with the company that gave them the lowest bid, which may well have been Intel over AMD, regardless of consumer pricing of their products.

    • No profit margin. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Sivar ( 316343 ) <charlesnburns[.]gmail@com> on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:32AM (#2792982)
      Consoles are sold at a loss, and the XBox is sold at more of a loss than any other console. Notice the business reviews of the XBox saying that Microsoft will lose several billion dollars and require over three years to turn a profit?
      Console companies make their money on the software, and it will take quite a bit of software to make up the cost.
      I'm sure that Microsoft knows what they are doing, though. They may not know how to design or impliment decent software. but nobody can argue that they know business.
      The XBox, if you follow news on Microsoft, is to get their foot in the door of home electronics. The X-Box combined with Ultimate TV (Microsofts innovative clone of Tivo) can potentially allow Microsoft to eventually control advertising on your TV, track everything you watch, and conceivably eventually allow Microsoft to influence what is actually shown on television.

      Compaq has a new business service called "Zero latency enterprise" which allows a company to look up your purchase history in less than one second. With an Xbox/UTV combo and a capability like this, Microsoft could display the absolute most effective ads for you and collect royalties from advertisers and networks.

      Okay, enough conspiracy theories.

      When Microsoft rules the world, I'm moving.

    • i'm not sure specifically about xbox, but historically, consoles have frequently been sold at a loss, with the expectation that they can make it back in game production, both in-house, and licensing to other companies who would develop games.

      then there's the notion of games that exist to draw people into a platform. for instance, final fantasy x will be big for sony, because all the people who devour the final fantasy series will need to have a ps2 to play it. console companies are willing to do almost anything to get these games released exclusively for their platform, as they want an advantage over their competitors. then, once these consoles and the draw games are in the houses of the consumers, the consumer will theoretically buy more games, since he already has the system.

    • From Acts of Gord [actsofgord.com], specifically Proclamations 2 [actsofgord.com]:

      Xbox. MS has decided to follow the Sega Model. Buy off the shelf parts, have someone else build it, and take a loss in order to push units out the door...

      Anyway, Microsoft is losing money per console sold, not including what they are spending advertising and support. Reports have it fall between $50 to $105 lost per console. MS has only said that they are losing money, and won't comment on how much.

      Known fact: almost all consoles are sold at a loss, usually a fairly beefy one. MS is basically pushing a little computer, priced at $300 is the only way they could ever compete with PS2 (look at 'em and the games, ask yourself if it could possibly be "worth" more than a PS2). The real money of the console market is in the games, not the hardware. At the moment, the only console known to be sold at no loss is the PS2. Sony researched it, developed it, makes the parts, assembles the units, puts 'em in the packages, and ships them; all in-house, because they are huge and have the facilities to do just that. MS does not.

      I'd say this information only reinforces your conclusion. Which is MS historically more likely to spend on: advertising or quality support?

      Daniel

      • Contrary to popular mythology, the idea of selling a console at below cost
        is a rather new phenomenon. It it not an ancient practice handed down
        through the ages.
        If you're going to take him as word of Go(r)d, at least understand his philosophy.
    • By your calculations, given that MS must be wholesaling the consoles to retailers for around $150-$200 (I'm sure someone here knows what wholesale is), they are probably losing $100 or more per console. That jives with what others here are saying. But, the money budgeted for hardware support is probably inversely proportional to their expenditures on the parts, and has nothing to do with how much they are making per console, because they aren't making money on the consoles. They may be willing to skimp on the quality of their parts and throw 50% of the saving at support. This appears to be the Palm/Handspring/cellphone model. But, they can't afford skimp too much, because of the bad rep they would get for producing a crappy console. This is more important in the console market than in the handheld market--for some reason, people expect their handhelds and cellphones to break when they drop them--they don't accept this for their consoles.
    • The xbox also has what is essentially a geforce 3. i don't think that falls under the $50 "misc" catagory. Microsoft is selling the xbox at a loss hoping that software linceses will make up for it (which it should in a few years)
  • A microsoft product defective?
    Poor technical support?

    Hell has now frozen over.

  • Death of Customer Service (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Sabalon ( 1684 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:23AM (#2792950)
    Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

    Wait on the phone for 1 hour to be transfered and then disconnected. A myriad of reasons why they can't accept a return on a particular item.

    Also, it seems as more and more things are basically computers with a different front end, problems are taking longer to creep up. By the time you may experience a problem, you are beyond the return date and you get to go through support hell.

    I had an APEX DVD 600a for a month. At the end of the month, I got Stargate and got the infamous branching/looping problem. Up till that DVD it had been working fine. The there was basically something that the software couldn't handle properly. I was just able to return it, but if it had been a week later, I would have been screwed.

    Oh well...that's my bitch...off to bed.
    • I had a rather fun experience with Creative a couple months ago. I wanted to wean a neighbour off a winmodem, which was typically connecting at around 23-26000bps, so looked about online for what would be a decent, but cheap, modem. (Hard convincing non computer folks to spend more when there's one for $5...). So, settled on a Creative one. It came, I installed it. The best it did was 33.6. I spent hours looking at init strings, scouring the net, etc, to no avail, so, finally, broke down and looked for a number for Creative's support. Then came the fun: As near as I could tell (and I doubt it's changed) there's absolutely no way to get a live person at Creative. Period. The support numbers just give voice recorded hell, telling you to go to a web page. I've still not got a reply to the email I sent them...

      I think eventually, all the companies that can't even support their hardware are just going to become extinct. It's one thing to have to handhold a naive customer through using one's product, but if it doesn't work as advertised (btw, a nice little usr modem connects at 49333 everytime on that neighbour's system... ) and they can't be bothered to answer their phones? To anecdotal nostalgia with them!

      As far as the Xboxes... did we really need another console, especially from M$? I still get off playing the N64, if I need some chewing gum for the mind. Between Sony and Nintendo, I think there's a nice, balanced market... and most the 'serious' gamers either own both or religiously stand behind one or the other. No room for the Redmond beast. Plus, who's going to be loyal when they start selling XBox'02 upgrades for half the price of the system, next year? :-)

    • OT: Yes (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Sivar ( 316343 ) <charlesnburns[.]gmail@com> on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:47AM (#2793034)
      HP, IBM, and depending on who you get, DirecTV are all good.
      HP shipped a $400 scanner to replace my $200 scanner, overnight delivery, and paid for shipping both ways to me when my motherboard's USB controller was flaky. Not even their fault.

      IBM offered to fly a technician to my house when OS/2 was refusing to use my soundcard. (it was a cheap SB clone at the time). Their suggestions got it working, so I was never able to test the offer.

      DirecTV has at least reduced their wait time to just a few seconds, and now has around 5,000 customer service people in 6 centers. Quite a few of them are fairly clueless about DirecTC though, but at least they are willing to find an answer to a question they do not know.

      Just wanted to point out some GOOD experiences, when there are so many bad ones to be heard about.

    • Re:Death of Customer Service (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @02:16AM (#2793104)

      > Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

      If you're rich, yes.

      While waiting my turn in the dentist's chair a couple of years ago I read an longish article in some rag (sorry; forgot which one) that went into a great bit of detail about the cold-hearted calculations businesses do about the ROI of giving good service vs. just blowing you off. In short, unless they can hope to make a lot of money off you-the-individual in the future, there's just no ROI in providing you any kind of service at all.

      Places like banks actually hope to lose your business if you don't have very much money, because you simply aren't worth the trouble to them.

      The article didn't go into the PR costs of blowing too many people off, but in a world of increasingly captive markets that's becoming less and less of an issue. (And where there is still competition, if that competition is equally cavalier about customer service then there's still no PR motivation.)

      • Re:Death of Customer Service (Score:5, Insightful)

        by seanadams.com ( 463190 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @09:56AM (#2793692) Homepage
        > Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

        If you're rich, yes.

        There's nothing especially cold-hearted about the practice. Manufacturers are giving the consumer exactly what they demand - the lowest possible price. Handling and refurbishing a product, in many cases, costs more that the wholesale price of the product itself, so you can bet it's in the best interests of the manufacturer to make the highest quality product they can, in spite of the cost constraints. Software is an exception - most consumers have incredibly low standards for even the most expensive software. For those of us who demand quality software, the stringent return policies give us no choice but to try a pirated copy before we buy, or switch to OSS.

        So people usually don't get pissed off when they have to return something, if they can do so without too much hassle. However, selling a product that has been previously returned and not properly refurbished (Fry's) is deplorable.

    • Lately I have come to see customer service this way:

      A company is like a stellar body. If it's big and the fires of enthusiasm run down, it collapses into a black hole from which nothing can escape, even (especially) customer service. In this state it may even consume smaller companies that come too close.

      When a company gets to that point -- the point where no customer service agent actually knows the answer to a question, the point where no one that you can reach has the power to find anyone to fix that aggravating piece of disinformation on the web site -- when they get to that point I just do my best to do without them. Sometimes you can, and sometimes (*cough*PHONE COMPANY*cough) you have to suck it up.

      Quality customer service has been dead for ages. I don't remember it being this bad 10 years ago but then again I have a rotten memory anyway.
    • Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?

      Last year when getting new local phone server I called Ameritech only to be told they didn't service my area, so I called Verizon, upon which a PERSON answered the phone, and told me that we was going to solve all my problems and was damn happy about it too. After about 2 minutes we figured out that Ameritech indeed was the only local provider available to me, and gave me all the information I needed to contact them. I dreaded calling them back. (If you've dealt with them before you'll understand.)

      By the way, this is in Indianapolis. Why can't they open up the phone networks like Fort Wayne did? And while I'm at it, why the hell am I charged ~$60 every time I move and need to get phone service? I know it can't cost them near that much to transfer my account, especially when all the wires and everything are already in place.

      Anyway, the moral is that customer service can be good. You try putting up with bitchy people all day and still be calm and rational with every customer and keep track of everything. I've had to do support for a small company before, it's not fun, but if you like your job enough, you still do your best.

  • errr what's today? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CMiYC ( 6473 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:25AM (#2792955) Homepage
    "SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Hundreds of people who bought Microsoft's hot new Xbox game console over the holidays received defective systems, and some say they waited for weeks before the devices were fixed. "

    I didn't get past that paragraph before I had to stop reading and go "what?" I think there is just a little melodrama here. At least on my Calendar the date is only January 5th. Which puts us almost at a mere two weeks after Christmas. Not even quite yet.

    I know everyone is in a rush to get the holidays in and over, but I think this is seriously starting to stretch it. Pretty soon when there is an article double posted on slashdot, people will be saying "oh come on, I just read that story 10-15 days ago! Right after my cup of coffee!"
    • I believe that Hanukkah (sp?) started around the 15th of December. And Ramadan before that. While the latter is only loosely a part of the 'holiday season' (at least traditionally) the former is more and more often seen as being included in that.

      In any event, it is unlikely that these people purchased the machines on the 24th of December. Most likely, they were purchased at least a week earlier. In many cases, perhaps parents caved in and gave the machines to their brats a little early (especially seeing as how many schools closed on the 21st) So, a broken machine on that date is at least 2.5 weeks.

      IOW, people who bought the machine during the holiday season (also commonly thought to start with Thanksgiving) got machines that broke, and they had to wait weeks for the device to be fixed.
    • That would make it "Several weeks", just. Although an X-Box is a little pricey for a Hanukkah gift. :-)
    • "Which puts us almost at a mere two weeks after Christmas. Not even quite yet."

      When it comes to retail sales in the US, "over the holidays" means that month-long gap between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

  • This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by alpinist ( 96637 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:25AM (#2792956)
    I know, I'll probably get flamed/modded down for saying anything in defense of MS, but... So what? The article is anti-MS FUD.
    So, out of 1.5 million units, a few hundred are bad. As the article even states, this is in line with the industry average, even compared to Nintendo who has more console building experience than anyone else in the market hands-down.
    XBox has been out about what, 7 weeks? Is it so surprising that the new player on this market might have a few snags with third-party customer service companies? Haven't you ever chosen to do business with someone only to find out your needs are not in harmony with their service? That is the real issue here. If MS had been in the console business for at least a year or two and people were have endless problems with customer support, then maybe it would be a big deal. Just because it's Microsoft doesn't mean their problems with third party CS companies equate to a poor product or a general neglect of their customers. This molehill is not that mountain.

    • Re:This is news? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @08:13AM (#2793565)
      "As the article even states, this is in line with the industry average, even compared to Nintendo who has more console building experience than anyone else in the market hands-down."

      They said the defective number of units is the norm. They didn't say that the lousy customer experience was. I've talked to Nintendo customer support several times over the years about various things, and have yet to have anything but a downright pleasurable experience. I've even e-mailed Sony once about their PS2 before I bought one and they actually CALLED me to answer my question. I can't say that my experiences with Microsoft support have been quite so rosy.

      "Is it so surprising that the new player on this market might have a few snags with third-party customer service companies?"

      As the article points out, this console market is possibly as competitive as it has ever been. They will receive zero mercy from Nintendo and Sony (remember, business is war). If this is a sign that Microsoft doesn't have all it's ducks in a row, then they're going to get left in the dust in a bad way. Investors might want to know about this as well as consumers.

      "Just because it's Microsoft doesn't mean their problems with third party CS companies equate to a poor product or a general neglect of their customers. This molehill is not that mountain."

      On the other hand, just because they're Microsoft means that they should have problems with customer support. While they may be new to the console wars, customer support is something they're supposed to have been doing since the mid 80's.
  • Is this really a black mark for the Xbox? I have never had a pleasant customer service experience with any consumer electronics barring Computers. I have come to expect a poor level of service if I ever have to call support for a DVD player or a TV.

    Besides, Microsoft will realize the current support contractor sucks, and pay out some cash for a better one. From the article it dosen't sound all that bad anyway.

    This is anecdotal eveidence of certain individual's problems - not a big deal.

  • Why mess with customer service? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Cerebus ( 10185 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:37AM (#2793002) Homepage
    I bought a PS2 for this Christmas, and somehow ended up with a *very* early revision system. Within a week, it had stopped playing any widescreen DVDs; I suppose we tickled a bug somewhere. I tried updating to no avail.

    So I went back to the store and exchanged it for another unit, this time a more recent revision. Problem solved.

    My point is if it fails to work because of a defect, why bother calling any kind of customer service? Return the unit to the vendor. This drops it back in the manufacturer's lap, and you don't end up being hassled. That's why God created return policies.

    And if you bought it from a place that won't accept returns on defective merchandise, I can only say: Caveat emptor, mon ami.
  • Over the years, I've come to accept the unfortunate fact that >80% of 'production' desktop software I'm going to run will crash on a regular basis.

    However, I have zero tolerance when an embedded system crashes, be it a consumer box or a commercial/industrial process controller.

    When was the last time the firmware in your Sony Flatscreen screwed up? VCR? Microwave? Granted, we're talking about way less lines of machine code, and a lot less data/processing flying through the pipes...

    I guess my major concern is that the almost inherent buggyness that plagues computer software becomes "acceptable" in embedded systems. M$ has been the catalyst in more than one "slippery slope" over the years...

    Ken.
    • This isn't a case of software bugs, I don't think. I think its learning more towards manufacturing defects. The same kind of defects that plague ANYTHING you buy in a store, including your shiny Flatscreen.

      Although, I do share your concern. Seems like as larger complex buggy systems get scaled down, their bugs come with it. It'd be nice if I didn't have to care about what revision my receiver's EEPROM had stored on it.

  • I work at a video game store... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by 10e 999 ( 128948 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:45AM (#2793025)
    specifically, gamestop.com (software etc, babbages, planetx, funcoland, and super software

    We have had two xboxes returned as defective. BOTH, were from physical damage resulting from the "bounce test" that occurs during shipping.

    There were obvious gashes in the cardboard of the box. One one xbox, the 2nd controller port did not function, and the other simply didn't power up.

    We've had similar situations with the PS2. There have been no Gamecubes returned and I can't even count how many defective dreamcasts we have.

  • US customers are the testers no japanese (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    We're just seeing what happens when the US market gets a product first. Remember all those faulty memory cards and DVD drives that didn't work in the PS2? No one really cared since it was all fixed by the time the stuff came to the US. Now we're the testers for the stuff.

  • Is anybody any better? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MhzJnky ( 443677 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @01:57AM (#2793054) Homepage
    When my original NES died after only 2 days of play it took 2 months to get a replacement from Nintendo. The store wouldn't take it back, they said I had to deal with Nintendo directly.

    When my Princeton Graphics monitor died I went through three remanufactured replacements before I got one that worked. Well worked well enough that I didn't feel the need to deal with those people any more.

    It seems today bad customer service is the norm. I'm not sure why, but it might have something to do with the fact that I never formaly complained to Nintendo or Princeton Graphics. I mean when was the last time you did anything but yell at the poor sap making $7/hour answering the phone. Do you think he reported your frustration up the managment chain? He sure as hell did not. He just noted your trouble ticket as completed in the computer and move on.

    If anyone is to blame it is the consumers for puting up with this and continuing to purchase goods from these people. I know I'll never buy a Princeton Graphics monitor again, but I did by a Super Nintendo and a N64.

  • Personal experience (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SilentChris ( 452960 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @02:01AM (#2793068) Homepage
    My personal experience with the XBox has been pretty favorable. The controllers and system are designed to take a beating, something I worry about with any first-time console manufacturer. The system also took a pretty big electrical shock without frying (surge... may have been a lightning strike some distance away).

    My only complaint is the ridiculous sensitivity of the DVD drive. If you have some dust on the disc or on the tray the system can spew "disc not found" errors after hours of playing. If you have a scratch on a disc you can practically forget it.

    It's not enough to seriously detract my enjoyment of the system (it's "crashed" due to "not finding the disc" 2-3 times... it puts you out to the Dashboard and explains the reason), but it's still a bit more than my PS2 has blanked out. Overall I'm actually pretty impressed with the construction and design, with a few "extra" points given since this is MS's first console (I did the same for the original Playstation -- my system overheated regularly). But it's nothing a CD lens cleaner won't fix, and as long as the games are playable -- and fun -- I don't complain.

  • My Gamecube (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Mean_Nishka ( 543399 )
    Works fine :)

  • I returned mine (Score:2, Interesting)

    by TexTex ( 323298 )
    I actually had a defective XBox unit. I took it right back to the store (Target) where I got it and asked for a refund. The immediate reaction was the standard line from the person at the counter about how exchanges are all they offer on certain products once any fingerprints have graced the case, etc, etc.

    I asked to speak with their supervisor just to get a better explanation and such. After about five minutes of explaining I realize it's not the stores fault and would simply like them to handle the problem rather than me contacting Microsoft, I left with cash in hand. The store felt it actually cost Microsoft less in the long run to have them deal with it than if I started using their support channels and such.

    And I'd buy it again from the same store.

  • Customer support? (Score:3, Funny)

    by DrCode ( 95839 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @02:51AM (#2793157)
    Just wondering... when you call their customer support, do they tell you to reinstall Windows?

  • I had WORSE problems with my PS2 at launch! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Blackwulf ( 34848 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @03:08AM (#2793196) Homepage
    Here's my timeline:

    October 26th, 2000: Was all alone at CompUSA for 3 hours before person #2 showed up at about 5AM - People were camped out at the Best Buy next door and the Circuit City across the street, but never thought of little ol' CompUSA. Even one of the radio DJ's came by to keep me company. Got the first of the 6 units at that store.

    That day, take it home, stick my Madden 2001 game in, and nothing happened. Stuck in a DVD, and nothing happened. Nothing. Nada. No spinning. No "Detecting".

    Called store, and they said they probably wouldn't get any more units until March of 2001, but would gladly refund my money.

    Called Sony, and they tried to get me to run diagnostics on the CD, which wouldn't work since it has to be able to know the CD was in the drive to do the diagnostic. So, they said they'd send me an airbill and I could send it to their Repair Depot in California.

    October 30th, 2000: Called Sony back, and said that they'll send the airbill tomorrow.

    November 2nd, 2000: Called Sony back, and they said they'd send the airbill tomorrow. I said screw it and sent it on my own dime.

    November 20th, 2000: After several calls to the repair depot, I get the tracking number of my repaired unit. They sent it UPS Ground during Thanksgiving. Thanks, Sony.

    November 28th, 2000: Received my replacement PS2, plugged it in. Put Madden 2001 in, listened to the CD spin...But that was all. Put in a DVD, listened to the CD spin...But that was all. It wasn't detecting the CD at all.

    Called Sony, and the guy said "Well we'll send you an airbill and you can send it back to the department..." Wanted to speak to his manager. "All of our managers are busy, sir, they'll call you back later tonight." Right. Sure.

    Amazingly, I got a phone call 45 minutes later. He reiterated the "send it back to our repair depot". I then asked for the address where my attorney could contact them. He then told me that he would personally send me an airbill (via FedEx this time) where I could send him my PS2 and he'd just send me a new one.

    November 30th, 2000: Amazingly, I receive an airbill in a timely fashion. I send out my PS2 directly to the guy.

    December 8th, 2000: Receive new PS2, and have been playing it to this day. I also have two of those blue boxes I keep just to mess with people, as I only sent the unit, but not the packaging materials.

    Remember, I sat in line for about 8 hours on October 26th to get a unit that I didn't get to actually play until December 8th. Let's just say, I'll never do that again. (Actually, I did, but I only was in line 30 minutes for an XBox.)

    Moral of the story: This happens with ANY console. PS2 had just as bad of a launch as XBox did to this respect. I have gotten lucky with my XBox, but the Software Etc. I go to said that they had 10 returns on launch day from the hard drive crashing.
      • Remember, I sat in line for about 8 hours on October 26th to get a unit that I didn't get to actually play until December 8th. Let's just say, I'll never do that again. (Actually, I did, but I only was in line 30 minutes for an XBox.)

      Sorry to say it, but you are part of the problem. You should have done what the store suggested in the first place: get a full refund, and take your business elsewhere (you'd have got one quicker, right?). That's what you're paying that retail markup for.

      Every time I see people saying that their new unit was DOA, I wonder why they put up with it. When you buy a new item that is unequivocably not fit for purpose, consumer law states very, very clearly that you are entitled to receive a fully working new item. A reconditioned or repaired one is not sufficient, and the sooner we stop accepting that crap from retaillers and producers, the sooner they'll stop channeling money from QA and support to marketing. If it breaks even a week down the line, reconditioned is fine, but DOA means it ain't your problem, and you've got the law on your side on that one.

  • God creates dinosaur. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man... Woman inherits the earth.

    MS creates xbox. MS destroys xbox. MS creates xbox-audience. xbox-audience destroys MS. xbox-audience creates linux-xbox-emu. xbox eats linux-xbox-emu... PS2 inherits the earth.

  • As much as I DISLIKE Microsoft... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by AnimeFreak ( 223792 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @03:42AM (#2793233) Homepage
    ...I can't say much against the X Box just yet. I do own a Playstation 2 and I wouldn't trade it in for a X Box, but if Microsoft dropped it in my hands I wouldn't be upset over getting free stuff.

    What angers me is that even on launch, Dreamcast had some problems. Overheating is one thing that came to mind. Even NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gamecube, PSX, PS2, etc have had problems of such calibre. What I see here is direct biasism towards Microsoft and that is generally unfair (even though MS isn't quite the fair company).

    Hell, there are defects in EVERYTHING. For instant, my video card does not like to sync properly unless I edit a few lines in my XF86 configuration file, but I don't go around saying XFree86 or my video card is crap because of that. It is just one of those flaws you have to deal with.

    Now, I am not saying that flaws are something we should ignore. Microsoft (and any company or developer) should acknowledge it's problems and attempt to fix them for future releases. Flaws are mistakes, if we acknowledge them and fix them, we have learned from them; if we ignore them, then we have not learned anything at all.

    As much as I dislike Microsoft, I am going against this article.
    • No kidding, I'd be curious what defect rates are for motherboards, because I've had several that gave me nothing but problems (MSI being one of them, and I had heard great things about them). I finally broke down and paid the extra cash and got an ASUS MB.

      By the way, you guys are complaining about 1%, and I bet that automobiles have a higher defect rate, and I'd be more worried about that than I would a game console.

  • A console is not just a computer... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Gribflex ( 177733 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @03:51AM (#2793251) Homepage
    The thing the people have to keep in mind is that the console market is directed primarily at those who are (partially or mostly) tech-illiterate, and aren't even old enough to drive.

    Sure, if I got a faulty system, I'd complain, and fiddle with it for a while, I'd know to take it back to the store (if they'd take it... no way of getting my snazzy new gift replaced until after the store gets a new shipment.. who knows how long that could be), or to be forceful with customer service when they started jerking me around... but think of the target market.

    Imagine yourself back in grade 6, you get a brand new console for Christmas, plug it in, just start getting excited, and it blue screens. What do you do? Fiddle with it, then complain to mom or dad. Chances are they won't be able to help, so they have to spend 20 minutes talking to customer support and another 2 weeks waiting. Meanwhile, you are determined that this Christmas sucked, and that mom and dad don't care about your gift. Will I tell my friends how cool my X-Box is? Will they want to buy one? Will my parents ever talk about how happy their kid was, or how good the service (that should be included in the price) is?

    Well?

    The problem with this disaster is not so much that computer problems happened, or that service sucked. It's that the people producing and servicing the product aren't used to the new customer base they are getting. 10 year olds... impatient 10 year olds.

    When you are producing products for children, they should be durable, reliable, and long lasting. A successful console is one that will stand up to all of the difficulties of having kids play with it, and one that will be around long enough to develop a loyal customer base.

    Do you remember Nintendo's, SNESs... even playstations? Those things are indestructible. And the service really is great.

    Anyhow, my point is this: This is not a product that can be dealt with hap-hazardly. These consumers are vicious, and uncaring. If it doesn't work well... every time... its crap. Period. In this kind of market you have to be able to back things 100% and this manufacturer isn't ready to do it.

    My prediction? With the exception of a few software manufacturers, the X-Box will be gone by next Christmas.
    • "Do you remember Nintendo?s, SNESs? even playstations? Those things are indestructible. And the service really is great. "

      WTF?? Indestructible my ass! My stupid Nintendo (2 of them) required setting a book on top of the thing to keep the game cartridge in place because that flimsy spring mechanism they used failed constantly. Basically every Nintendo unit I've seen has some sort of heavy object sitting on it to keep the game from springing out. :P

      The Playstation? *sigh* Just put the wrong modchip in it... then see how far you get. =/

      I have actually had no problems at all with my Dreamcast. :-)
  • Well, we imported an xbox (to Australia). You can imagine that we were doubly annoyed that when we got it the DVD Drive wouldn't open. We're going to have to send it back, obviously, but defects like these are even more annoying when you can't just send it to your local service centre.

    And while everyone is saying "Yeah, but it's less than 1%, and Nintendo has less than 1% too", think about what you are saying. With these figures, MS could have shipped 10,000 faulty boxen, and Nintendo 100, and they'd still be both under 1%. The only difference is that one has a 1 in 100 chance of failing, which isn't good odds in anyones book, anti-MS fud or not.

  • Customer Service (Score:3, Insightful)

    by futuresheep ( 531366 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @05:07AM (#2793342) Journal
    A 1.3% problem rate for customer service is pretty damn good, and much better than what some companies I've been invloved with consider an acceptable rate. Just like the delivered product, there are bound to be failures in service. Restaraunts try to deliver a meal the same way each time it's served, but sometimes the steak is overcooked, and every now and then a ride is down at Six Flags. Get over it. Mistakes happen.

  • This particular outsourcing company is horrid (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Hi-Tech Redneck ( 24821 ) on Sunday January 06, 2002 @05:52AM (#2793408) Homepage Journal
    The main reason X-Box support ranks so low right now is that it is outsourced to Harte-Hanks [harte-hanks.com] in Austin. Believe me, I've worked there. Despite the best intentions of the companies that hire them, somewhere down the overly deep trail of managers, the intentions get twisted into "screw the customer."

    The employees are undertrained high school students, college students, and poor saps like me who just couldn't find anything better at the time. Since management is never very forthcoming with information, and eventually, a phone tech gets tired of having to dig for information that should be readily available. So we give up, we lose any joy in our jobs, and the customer loses any hope of decent support. Welcome to the outsourced call center.

    In fact, having worked the Sega account there, I can sqarely place a large chunk of the blame for death of the Dreamcast on Harte-Hanks. As much as I dislike Microsoft's general business practices, the XBox is still a very nice system and I'd hate to see HH kill it, too.
    • Hiring harte-hanks is the corporate equivalent of saying "We don't give a F***"

      During my time there, my MANAGER told me that if a company really cared they wouldn't have hired the firm.

      They're somebody you hire when you want to say you have a call center, but don't care if anything is actually accomplished by it.

      One of the accounts I worked for was the warranty number of a defective tape measure that was being sold by Sears. Our job was to essentially tell them that unless the rivets had come out of the little metal tab that was attached to the tape measure itself, it wasn't covered by the warranty.

      The case fell apart during the first day of use? Too Bad.

      The spring that recoils the tape broke when you opened the package? Too Bad.

      The tape broke when you uncoiled it for the first time? Too Bad.

      And don't get me started on how they distribute "Information." Fuzzy photocopies thumbtacked to the cubicle walls.

      The training session consisted of a video on how to handle brokerage calls. Nothing to do with our jobs, but it was "phone etiquette" training.

      They also placed a lot of outgoing telemarketing calls. While I was there I made sure to put myself on all of their "Do Not Call" and "Do Not Mail" lists.

      We were also told not to put someone on the "Do Not Call" list until they asked to be removed for the second time in the conversation.

      I made the mistake of getting my manager when a caller wanted to "speak to the manger." I got chewed out for 20 minutes after the call. Apparently, you're supposed to hand the call to whoever is in the next cubicle and they become your "manager" for the duration of the call. This is to save the real managers time. I was once "Fired" by the girl next to me for the way I'd handled the call. After the caller hung up she and I had a good laugh at my "unemployed" status.

      I'm now VERY glad I got a PS2 today. Now that I know harte-hanks is handling the calls, I know Microsoft doesn't care about providing service to ANYONE who buys the product. "Ship it and forget it."

      www.matthewmiller.net [matthewmiller.net]

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