Bioware Release Neverwinter Nights Beta Toolset 293
Zed Pobre writes "Careful review of the EULA of the Neverwinter Nights Beta Toolset reveals the following clause:
Section 4(b):
"By distributing or permitting the distribution of any of your Modules, you hereby grant back to INFOGRAMES and BIOWARE an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means. Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available."
This is more or less the same as if a company producing a compiler wrote into the EULA that by distributing any program compiled with that compiler, the company would permanently get the rights to do whatever they wanted with that program, including reselling it for profit and then forbidding you to publish it yourself.
Derek French, the Assistant Producer for Bioware, confirmed that this section of the EULA is not going to change for the final release. Although he noted in the same message that similar clauses have been used by other companies providing tools for users to create their own content, NWN has a much greater scope than any of them by far, and it's now a profoundly bad idea for someone who wants to keep control of their writing, characters, or game ideas , or use those elements elsewhere, to make a NWN module using those elements publically available.
This kind of clause falls just short of "Bioware Owns Anything You Make", since if they want to sell a module you created themselves, the clause even allows them to forbid you from distributing your original version for any reason. The sole comfort in this is that the clause apparantly does not allow them to make a derivative work of your module, so it would have to be distributed "as is" -- but if the module contained enough "objectionable" material that they wouldn't want to take it for themselves, they could still forbid the owner from distributing it.
Once again, it seems that companies are only against piracy as long as it's their material being pirated. If they can pirate some individual's material by throwing an unreadable EULA up for a second at install time, it's perfectly fine.
The full forum thread discussing this can be found here."
Online D&D? (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't know too many people that play traditional RPGs since everquest and UO came out. Do any folks still get around and play D&D? If not why dont' you? Is it because of time getting people together and whatnot. If so this could be the answer for you.
It sounds like a neat idea maybe it will take off.
Maybe not.
Re:Online D&D? (Score:2, Interesting)
As for online D&D.. this isn't a new thing. Join an IRC network.. join #D&D or #AD&D and see if there are any games going. The sessions generally happen in a moderated channel, with the DM being the channel operator. Anything that needs to be said to the DM in private can be done in a private message or a notice. I've only played via IRC once, but it was fun. And there was no need to rely on a piece of software to interpret the rules.. it was just like a real session. The only problem with this is timezones, but you'll get that with any online game.
Re:Online D&D? (Score:2)
Dice & paper RPGs are a social activity. When I find a good group I enjoy playing with, I'll game more often. However, since I've been moving around a fair amount, I usually end up somewhere without a good group and stop playing.
So perhapse the challenge is finding a good group as much as the time to play?
One of the reasons I am interested in NWN is the possibility of getting togeather some of the old gaming group (who mostly have net access, even if they are widely seperated by geography). This could provide an interesting way to play some of the old campaigns.
Of course, I am also working with OpenRPG [openrpg.com]. OpenRPG is kind of like a digital kitchen table. It provides a gathering place to talk, space for your character sheets and other gaming materials, and a map to place "miniatures". The game itself is up to the players. With this environment, I've played D&D, Star Wars, and even Chess.
I would say the "dice & paper" rpg is far from dead. And perhapse the internet can even help those who don't have a local group. All it takes is the right tools.
Pen&Paper and Neverwinter (Score:2)
Some friends and me play good ol' pen'n'paper as often as we get to, but it's not easy to meet (working times, studying, "geographic challenges"). I'm seriously thinking about integrating Neverwinter into that schedule, at least if creation times for adventure settings keep acceptable.
And as for that EULA stuff, I don't think it's really valid or enforceable here (Germany) plus I'm thinking of a chicken-out license to stick to my modules that combines the convenience of private use and a postcard license.
Chicken-out license
This module is in no way meant for distribution. If you found it that means you either stumbled across a resource that I had to use in order to transfer the module for my own private use or someone else already ripped it from one such resource and made it available (since that person wasn't authorized to do so in the first place, this doesn't count as distribution by the maker!). However, since you're already at it, feel free to ignore the non-public nature of this module and let me know what you think about it.
Re:Online D&D? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Troll? (Score:2)
that is the essence of this game, a basically old school DM game, integrated with the new graphics.
*shrug* beats the heck out of me how pointing out how it has the advantages of both is trolling, but i certainly do like the concept behind the game, can't wait to see how it turns out
Somewhere in America... (Score:4, Funny)
Somewhere in America, an English teacher is crying and doesn't know why.
Re:Somewhere in America... (Score:2, Offtopic)
OMG. This is a new low. I thought slashdot stories could not sink this low.
It seems I was wrong.
Yeah, take my karma.
Re:Somewhere in America... (Score:2)
Re:Somewhere in America... (Score:2, Funny)
Hey, speaking of old jokes, welcome to Slashdot!!
NWN toolset and Linux (Score:2)
The game itself is coming out for Linux, of course.
/Janne
Re:NWN toolset and Linux (Score:2)
Mirrors... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the mirrors from the forum:
3D Gamers
Click Here [3dgamers.com]
Baron Bosse
http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE [130.237.161.56]
FilePlanet
http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?file=88066 [fileplanet.com]
gec
http://flinx.com/NWN [flinx.com] (Mountain View)
http://jibe.biz/NWN [jibe.biz] (Redwood City)
http://sol.olymp.org/NWN [olymp.org]
Use BitTorrent 0.7.1 from http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html [bitconjurer.org] to download http://130.237.68.4:8080/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE [130.237.68.4]
http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE [130.237.161.56]
AusGamers
(Sydney Australia) [ausgamers.com]
"Limited"? (Score:3, Informative)
You can do everything that you will be able to do in the full version, there are just only about 15% of the models & textures that will be in the game (or so says the readme file).
I've already made a small module with NPCs, monsters, custom scripts, conversations, etc.... It's great once you learn how to do stuff. Now if only I could actually PLAY the module I created! *sigh*
(...and for a Neverwinter scripting competition thing, visit http://members.rogers.com/scriptwars )
Mirrors - My good deed for today (Score:3, Informative)
(Grabbed from a NWN Forum post by Derek French - NWN Assistant Producer)
Greetings all:
We are trying to organize a list of Beta Toolset Mirrors. If you have the Toolset and have a mirror of the install files, please post them here.
Also, for your download security pleasure, here are the MD5 checksums for the individual files:
AUTORUN.INF - C14C468795575BCE73D84989262479B4
data1.cab - 181F15C7F19E07C92727D9C49E820E40
data1.hdr - B4F103D55E8FFAAA94505716A7C82DE1
data2.cab - A7B82CE88F1FAF469892FC12208655D8
ikernel.ex_ - 4D63BBFF28AFC7A69B6DEFAF048306A7
layout.bin - 26D40B394685321838E00002C30CBEE7
readme.txt - 6CD49925A70C04B3393DEF39F44F4B51
setup.bmp - 03A01D22277FFC06F91B475696946B81
Setup.exe - 1AEB989E361AF85F5099DE3DA25457F4
Setup.ini - FEB5DB091554FE2E65CFED8E2E9D292A
setup.inx - 5AFB35300108D078A2B942DD85759E45
FilePlanet version: NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE - 6D4B52FE7264C16BE9A0A3B506E9456C
MIRROR LIST: 3D Gamers Link [3dgamers.com]
(End of Derek's Post)Baron Bosse Link [130.237.161.56]
FilePlanet Link [fileplanet.com]
gec Link [flinx.com] Link [jibe.biz] Link [olymp.org]
Yet another mirror I have found: Neverwinter Vault Link [ign.com]
This could be ugly (Score:2)
Further information on the toolset (Score:2, Flamebait)
The BETA version of the Neverwinter Aurora Toolset provides most of the functionality of the final toolset that will be included in the retail version of Neverwinter Nights. The final toolset will allow users who purchase Neverwinter Nights to create their own adventures with the fully functional game editor that has been used by BioWare in the creation of the official NWN campaign. Just as a Beta Test provides consumers an early look at a game while the development team continues to test the game and define issues, Infogrames has determined that this toolset can provide that experience to players but is in NO WAY FINAL, and thus technical support will not be available.
There is also an introduction on how to use the toolset [bioware.com] at the Bioware website. It will be interesting to see what creations this toolset yeilds because there has been many games with great toolsets but almost no mods to speak of. An example that springs to mind is the underrated Dark Reign 2 [activision.com].
Clever bastards... (Score:2, Insightful)
( I know, I'll get moderated into obscurity when someone catches that one tomorrow, when they can't even connect to a server, let alone download.
Good thing its not from Microsoft (Score:4, Insightful)
If that were an EULA from Microsoft, everyone would be calling for a downloading boycott and legal action...
Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft (Score:2)
Yes, but three of the replies have goatse.cx links.
Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft (Score:2)
I'm sure there are template EULAs you could find and use if you wanted to do this.
Powerful, Easy to Use (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a wonderful thread here [bioware.com] which shows what people have built in the first 24 hours after the tool was released.
However, these screenshots don't convey the depth of the scripting language that you can use to customize just about anything in the game world.
I'm still looking forward to creating modules... (Score:2, Interesting)
For example, I have a friend who is a writer. If he decided to create and distribute a NWN module based upon a book that he had written, apparently Bioware would, according to their EULA, have the option to simply steal it and gain ownership of all the contents (characters, settings, etc.).
Further, what about modules derived from, or inspired by, popular works? If a module contains characters named Princess Leia, Wolverine or Ripley, does Bioware have the right to claim ownership of those names too?
The more I think about it, the more I realize that Bioware couldn't get away with this if challenged. They can't claim the rights of copyrightable (or copyrightED) stories and trademarkable (or trademarkED) characters by EULA proclamation. I guess it continues to prove that EULAs are a joke. :)
-Aaron
No, a different section covers popular works (Score:2, Interesting)
"(3) your Modules must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties"
So, basically, what this means is that if you make a module with copyrighted stuff in it you are not allowed to legally distribute it. And since Bioware only recieves control of modules you legally distribute, they wouldn't get control of Princess Leia or whatever.
By the by, it also follows that if you wanna protect your ideas, then throw a little framed picture of Calvin and Hobbes on a nightstand in some hut somewhere in your world. Sure, the clause I mention here would give Bioware the power to make you stop distributing it, but they already have that power from the clause that we're already upset about. At least they couldn't get control of it. -- Said argument relies completely on the assumption that one piece of copyrighted material makes the WHOLE module illegal.
Thoughts on Derek's comments (Score:3, Insightful)
I completely understand people being negative about an EULA like this, given the abuse we've seen by other major companies in the past. OTOH, witness the following (posted by Derek French of Bioware to the forum thread):
So back on the first hand again, you gotta admit, he's got a point. Bad PR is more damaging than the fighting the best lawyers in the world, any way.
But back on the other hand, the thing I think is bizarre is that they're sticking by their position, even in the fact of reasoned criticism from informed but non-hostile observers. Their licence agreement does appear to be considerably more strongly worded than the cited previous EULAs for other games, after all, and whatever Derek says and however faithfully, they do still seem to have the legal right to take your stuff, sell it without credit, and forbid you from distributing it on the whim of a management weenie.
If Bioware genuinely believe the claims Derek makes above, there would be no harm in rewriting the EULA slightly to clarify the position. Then they'd be raved about on one of the most popular boards on the 'net, instead of having their motives questioned. Good PR beats the lawyers any day, too. :-)
Re:Thoughts on Derek's comments (Score:2)
I expect the EULA as it stands is a "kite". Derek or someone else is going to go back to management & say we won't put up with it.
From the boards... (Score:2)
Derek posted to the Bioware NWN board and basically said "I'll be blunt; the EULA is final." The next post pointed out that the titanic would never sink, and all police officers and politicians have our best interests at heart. :-)
Re:Thoughts on Derek's comments (Score:2)
That's terrible (Score:2, Interesting)
Bioware's "License" is Not the First (Score:5, Informative)
Bioware's so-called "license" that lays claim to anything you create using their tools is not the first of its kind. Activision pulled exactly the same shite a few years ago with a "license" attached to a version of Worldcraft. And yes, Activision got flayed alive for it. But it's not clear whether they learned their lesson. Bioware certainly hasn't.
A copy of the old Activision/Worldcraft license is appended below (with minor reformatting for HTML). Honestly, these childish people who complain so bitterly and shrilly about "theft" really need to take a good, hard look in the mirror.
Schwab
________________________
Software License Agreement Summary:
The use of this software is subject to the terms of the Software License Agreement below. You must accept the Software License Agreement before you can use Level Utilities. The Level Utilities are provided strictly for your personal use. The use of the Level Utilities is subject to additional license restrictions contained in the Software License Agreement and may not be commercially exploited.
SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
IMPORTANT - READ CAREFULLY: THE LEVEL PROCESSING UTILITIES (THE "LEVEL UTILITIES") FOR USE WITH HEXEN II (THE "PROGRAM") ALLOWS YOU TO CREATE CUSTOMIZED NEW GAME LEVELS AND OTHER RELATED GAME MATERIALS FOR PERSONAL USE IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROGRAM ("NEW GAME MATERIALS"). THE USE OF THE LEVEL UTILTIES IS SUBJECT TO THE SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. BY USING THE LEVEL UTILTIES, YOU ARE CONSENTING TO BE BOUND BY AND ARE BECOMING A PARTY TO THIS AGREEMENT WITH ACTIVISION, INC. ("ACTIVISION"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT USE THE UTILITIES AND COMPLETELY REMOVE THEM FROM YOUR COMPUTER AND YOUR POSESSION.
LIMITED USE LICENSE. Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non- transferable, limited right to use the Level Utilities for the purpose of creating New Game Materials solely and exclusively for personal use. For purposes of this Agreement, "New Game Materials" represent computer data that modifies, substitutes for or adds new materials to the materials currently contained in the Product, thus modifying or replacing one or more existing game levels and other constituent elements provided in the Product. You shall not create New Game Materials, or tools that have no substantial purpose other than to contribute to the creation of New Game Materials, except as expressly permitted pursuant to this Agreement.
All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, its licensors. The Level Utilities are licensed, not sold. Your license and the use of the Level Utilities confers no title or ownership in the Level Utilities or the New Game Materials created using the Level Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Level Utilities or such New Game Materials.
OWNERSHIP. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Level Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you using the Construction Kit are owned by Activision or its licensors and are protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. In the event that you should, by operation of law, be deemed to retain any rights in any New Game Materials created by you, you, by using the Level Utilities, hereby irrevocably assign, without any further consideration and regardless of any use by Activision of such New Game Materials, all of your rights and interest, if any, in and to such New Game Materials to Activision. You also hereby grant Activision an irrevocable, perpetual, exclusive, fully paid and royalty-free license to exercise any rights, including moral rights, to any and all aspects of the New Game Materials. You agree that Activision shall have the full and complete right to package, publish, print, copy, promote, market, distribute, transfer and display the New Game Materials created by you and prepare derivative works based upon such New Game Materials, and any derivative works thereof, anywhere throughout the world.
LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You agree that as a condition to Activision's consent to allow you to use the Level Utilities, you will not use or allow third parties to use the Level Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you for commercial purposes, including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt of any such proposal or offer.
If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials created by you to your friends, family, co-workers and other fellow gamers, you agree to do so solely without charge.
You shall create New Game Materials only if such New Game Materials can be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the Product. The New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-alone product.
New Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any COM, EXE or DLL files or to any other executable Product files.
New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected works or other properties of third parties.
New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials' creator(s) and (b) the words "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION."
You will not use the Level Utilities to reverse engineer, extract source code, modify, decompile or disassemble the Program, in whole or in part.
TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights of Activision, this Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions. In such event, you must immediately discontinue the use of the Level Utilities and any New Game Materials created using the Level Utilities.
INJUNCTION. Because Activision would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that Activision shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Activision may otherwise have under applicable laws.
INDEMNITY. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Activision, its partners, licensors, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents (specifically including, but not limited to, Id Software, inc., and Raven Software, inc.) harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Level Utilities pursuant to the terms of this Agreement
MISCELLANEOUS. This Agreement represents the complete agreement concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. This Agreement shall be construed under California law as such law is applied to agreements between California residents entered into and to be performed within California, except as governed by federal law and you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal courts in Los Angeles, California.
If you have any questions concerning this license, you may contact Activision at 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California 90405, (310) 255-2000, Attn. Business and Legal Affairs, legal@activision.com
Hexen II(tm) ©1997 Raven Software Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Id Software, Inc. software code contained within Hexen II(tm) © 1996 Id Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Developed by Raven Software Corporation. Published by Id Software, Inc. Distributed by Activision, Inc. under sublicense. Hexen® is a registered trademark and Hexen II(tm) is a trademark of Raven Software Corporation. The Id Software name and the id logo are trademarks of Id Software, Inc. Activision® is a registered trademark of Activision, Inc. All other trademarks and trade names are the properties of their respective companies.
Greetings from BioWare (Score:5, Interesting)
First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.
Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.
Babbster - no, you cannot use your friend's novel nor on Star Wars, or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA. Your friend can create a module based on his novel. CoreyGH has it right.
Some other comments:
Windows only. Really? Then I guess I better shut down this Neverwinter Nights Linux dedicated server that I am playing on right now...
Toolset is Windows only. Borland was supposed to have Builder for Linux done a long time ago and that was what we were going to use for Linux. We use Builder for Windows for the Toolset. The Linux Toolset is just not happening right at this moment.
The distribution statement means that you cannot charge anyone to play Neverwinter Nights. Neither for modules, nor for server access. This isn't a MMORPG.
And yes, our game is designed such that the end users do NOT need to download the modules in order to play on the server. No matter what module the server is running (well, pretty much).
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:3)
About the Mac (or Linux) version (Score:2)
The status now [insidemacgames.com] is the same as it was two years ago [insidemacgames.com].
The good news is that NWN will ship with Windows, OSX, and Linux86 installers for Players and DMs on the same CD. The bad news is that the world creation tools are Windows only.
See also: Bioware's NWN FAQ [bioware.com]:
The real answer is that they created the Toolset in the first place using a Windows-only system, rather than the cross-platform environment they used to write the actual game. They've never explained why.
Protect from what? (Score:4, Insightful)
I understand that you may need to stop people from making Lord of the Rings modules and such, but there's a separate provision in the EULA for that.
Also, Sanuj's main concern on the BioWare thread doesn't seem to get addressed. I don't really care if Bioware distributes my module, but I would care if they used one of my characters in a spin-off novel. This isn't what the EULA is meant to allow, I gather.
Yogurt
Re:Protect from what? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Protect from what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or maybe all books should belong to the font maker and the word processor vendor. Again, all you provided was the "creative part".
Perhaps music should belong to the instrument makers and other electronics companies involved. Once more, just using someone else's tools. The creative part is obviously irrelevant.
Sorry, things are provided for an intended use. When they are used for that intended use then you should retain intellectual property -- because that is all you're providing in the first place. The IP laws are written with this concept clearly in mind. I'm sorry that you, along with numerous companies (Activision amongst them) have completely missed out on this.
Oh, and finally, yes Id did see many, many pennys from those people "reselling their mindshare". They had to buy Doom afterall.
Re:Protect from what? (Score:2, Insightful)
If you are simply reusing textures in the doom WAD files, which are either A> present in the demo version or B> you require the final version, you are not doing anything wrong. The people have purchased the game, and they have the right to use those textures.
The problem comes when you distribute textures to people who have not paid for them.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:3, Insightful)
First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.
Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.
What exactly does this protect the consumer from? The burden of receiving royalty cheques from the sale of successful modules they have written?
If you have no intention of using the powers granted by the EULA, then why do you include them? Perhaps they were included on the sly by your lawyers to encourage law suites and generate more income for the lawyers.
I have been looking forward to the release of NWN for some time, but clauses of this sor may make me think again.
I know! Brilliant idea! I'll develop the modules during busines hours, then your lawyers and my employers lawyers can fight it out between themselves to see who gets to own what I produced.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:5, Informative)
2. Permitted New Creations. Subject to the terms and provisions of this Agreement and so long as you fully comply at all times with this Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to create for the Software (except any Software code) your own modifications (the "New Creations") which shall operate only with the Software (but not any demo, test or other version of the Software). ID reserves all rights not granted in this Agreement, including, without limitation, all rights to ID's trademarks. You may include within the New Creations certain textures and other images (the "ID Images") from the Software. You shall not create any New Creations which infringe against any third party right or which are libelous, defamatory, obscene, false, misleading, or otherwise illegal or unlawful. You agree that the New Creations will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country in violation of the U.S. Export Administration Act (or any other law governing such matters) by you or anyone at your direction and that you will not utilize and will not authorize anyone to utilize, in any other manner, the New Creations in violation of any applicable law. The New Creations shall not be downloaded or otherwise exported or re-exported into (or to a national or resident of) any country to which the U.S. has embargoed goods or to anyone or into any country who/which are prohibited, by applicable law, from receiving such property. You shall not rent, sell, lease, lend, offer on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise commercially exploit or commercially distribute the New Creations. You are only permitted to distribute, without any cost or charge, the New Creations to other end-users so long as such distribution is not infringing against any third party right and is not otherwise illegal or unlawful. As noted below, in the event you commit any breach of this Agreement, your license and this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless ID and Activision and ID's and Activision's respective officers, employees, directors, agents, licensees (excluding you), sub-licensees (excluding you), successors and assigns from and against all losses, lawsuits, damages, causes of action and claims relating to and/or arising from the New Creations or the distribution or other use of the New Creations or relating to and/or arising from your breach of this Agreement. Your obligations set forth in the immediately preceding sentence shall survive the cancellation or termination of this Agreement.
Basically,
1. The Mod should only work with the full-blown application, not the demo
2. Do not distribute the modification to anyone that isn't legal allowed to purchase/use the application.
3. Don't sell the modification without going through us
4. Don't distribute if you break any other partys trademarks, copyrights or similar.
5. Break this EULA and you're on your own, ID & affiliates and not responsible for your actions
Now this doesn't seem half as harsh as "grant back to INFOGRAMES and BIOWARE an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means." basically saying ALL YOUR MODS ARE BELONG TO US (sorry, just had to do that
You don't see photoshop telling us that any creations formed by the use of this application also belongs to adobe.
I seriously doubt that you need to go to this length to protect us and yourselves against hungry law-men.
Speaking for myself, this won't affect my pre-order, I will still wait for the sweet thing to drop down in my mailbox, but I won't be doing any mods (if Wine or a C++ Builder port makes the tools usable under linux)
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's what the Starcraft EULA has to say:
C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not be entitled to:
(iii) use or allow third parties to use the Editor and the New Materials created thereby for commercial purposes including, but not limited to, distribution of New Materials on a stand alone basis or packaged with other software or hardware through any and all distribution channels, including, but not limited to, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution without the express written consent of Blizzard;
Aside from that, there is no other limitations on what you or Blizzard may do with any "New Materials" that you create. (It said earlier that "New Materials" refers to custom levels created with the editor.)
So, yeah, I think he's full of crap when he says that these other EULAs contain the same control freakiness as Bioware's EULA. In fact, I'm going to send him an email and a link to this thread and maybe he can come back and explain himself.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
Re:Legally enforcable contract without considerati (Score:3, Interesting)
You *are* recieving consideration, you just didn't notice
They are letting you use the toolkit.
Note: Do not interpret this clarifacation as support for Bioware. I hope some judge gets to look at this piece of crap and uses it as an excuse to rule all EULA's void.
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Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been quite concerned lately with the direction EULAs have been taking, and with some of the decisions being made at the leading companies in the game industry in particular. I would like to address two provisions in your EULA that could perpetuate or create new restrictions on players and hopefully persuade you to reconsider them.
One thing that troubles me is that your company is attempting to establish editorial control over the content users might wish to create and distribute. How am I or anyone else to know whether or not a package we labor over for days (to release for free to your other customers, natch) is going to meet with your company's standards? What risk does your company really incur if it permits customers generate whatever they desire with the toolset (and deal with the law themselves if they violate it)? More importantly, what liabilities has your company taken on now that it has more or less declared itself the policeman for all content generated with its tools? I know that the ISPs lobbied their asses off to avoid that kind of responsibility; are you sure you guys want it?
The second thing that concerns me is that with this EULA your company is attempting to create rights for itself to its customers' work. It's suspicious even if you only intend to use it to create a 'best-of' pack to distribute with Neverwinter Nights when sales of the original slow down (and, hey, I personally think that it'd be pretty cool to have happen with my work, but I'd at least appreciate an e-mail -- the Linux folk aren't demanding a copy of your software just because you're running it on their server, are they?) I'm comfortable with the idea that you don't want me or anyone else to sell modules I create for a profit, as I understand you'd probably prefer to license your engine for such things, but the statements in the EULA are excessively broad if this is all your company really wants to accomplish.
Whether or not you actually intend to exert this control, the perceived threat in this clause is enough that I wouldn't risk creating content for your game, and given the impact I believe it will have on the amount of quality content available for download I'd probably have second thoughts about buying it to begin with. I certainly don't think that any of you are out to screw us, but then again I never thought that Blizzard would punish their loyal fans either. I recognize that overbroad EULAs have become one of the hallmarks of the game industry from the big players, but I sincerely hope that, as an expression of goodwill to those of us who plan to line up at the stores to spend our hard-earned money on your game the minute it leaves the truck, you will have the courage to break with that way of thinking enough to rewrite the EULA to protect our interests with the same enthusiasm as you have protected your own.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2, Insightful)
<MOTHERLY TONE>So if everyone else were to go jump off a bridge, you would too?</MOTHERLY TONE> Seriously, just because other companies have done it before does not make it okay. Please, someone explain how this helps protect the end user.
Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.
This is like when the government says "sure, we have the ability to wiretap anything we feel like, but we would never do that because it would piss the citizenry off". A slippery slope, indeed... It begs the question: If you have absolutely no intention of ever using the power this clause gives you, why even bother to put it in there? Particularly when it garners this kind of reaction.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
What you are stating is your *explanation* of why you are doing this. It's not an *justification*. It's still immoral to have this kind of "legal stealing" clause in the EULA.
If everyone drives at 160km/h where the limit is 130 km/h you would likely also drive at 160km/h but it ***does NOT justify the wrongdoing***
Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.
We hear what you are saying, but it's what you *do* that counts.
So, if you don't plan to use the clause you can remove it from the EULA, right ?
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
Another analogy: I bought a gun to protect myself from intruders. Theoretically, I can use that gun to shoot anyone I decide I don't like. But I don't, because the consequences far outweigh the benefits of doing so. Same thing here. Just because they can doesn't mean they will. Infogrames is still a small enough company and the game market is volatile enough that one bad PR disaster can sink a game and cause massive loss in profit. They also know that one successful game can make a company big time, and one big flop can put them out of business.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:4, Insightful)
BioWare can take my creative labors, sell it themselves, and yank my rights to to my intellectual property. Not just comercial rights, but the right to distribute it at all.
Because its suicide.
This seems to admit that the EULA grants BioWare powers that "shock the sensibilities". The EULA is disgusting and you know it.
Pardon me for not trusting BioWare not to actually USE the disgusting aspects of the EULA. We've all seen companies commit suicide. They also try to get away with as much as possible just short of commiting suicide. And companies get bought out. If you really have no plans to use the licence in a suicidal manner, just REWRITE it.
Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. All of them say the same thing that we are saying.
I'll take your word for it. I never bought those particular games. NeverwinterNights sounded cool, but I can tell you there's no way I'm going to buy it, much less make content for it, so long as that EULA clause exists.
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Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
Personally, I don't see a problem. If I make a mod, and then they take it, put it on CD, and sell it without my permission, then hey, that's fucking cool, dude, because hey, I got fucking published! I'd love that. Talk about bragging rights. All I'd ask is that they let me know beforehand, so I could brag to my friends about it.
I do agree that the EULA should be changed. It's only fair to ask people what you can do with their mods. But calling a right given to them by the EULA 'stealing' is a whole other matter.
An interesting question would be if Bioware followed through with this and got sued. Don't get me wrong, I love the company, but I'd like to see EULAs challenged in court at some point. Bioware's not Microsoft, but it would be good to see them struck down.
--Dan
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
I don't see how what you said is any different than what I said: "The EULA is an outright licence to steal." They are giving themselves the right to commit legalized theft.
Personally, I don't see a problem... that's fucking cool
I'm really getting sick of that attitude. Sorry, but I've been seeing it in other threads here on slasdot. Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean no one else will have a problem with it.
The EULA clause only comes into play when it isn't cool. Think about it. If the EULA clause didn't exist, and they come ask you if they can distribute your mod, you'd say "fucking cool". They lose nothing. Then they go up to someone else who, for whatever reason, objects. The EULA lets them steal it. Not fucking cool.
The fact that they are claiming rights to my creative works is bad enough, but claiming the right to revoke my rights in my own works is simply obnoxious.
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Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:3, Insightful)
Surely Bioware wouldn't exercise their rights under this license to acquire and then profit commercially from someone else's work? If Bioware would compensate a particularly good module team, then the license should state that, or at least allow for it. Id, for example, has always included commercial terms for their products.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
Others have already brought up the "if you don't plan to use it, why do you have it" point. I would like to expand that a little further.
Let's be civil here and assume everyone at Blizzard are "cool" and not likely to abuse this clause. That's fine for now. But this is a business. Leadership in that business can change. Who's to say Blizzard's leadership will always have the same view towards use of this clause? Businesses sometimes go under and their assets get sold off. Who's to say the new owners of the NWN asset won't decide to make use of its pennies-on-the-dollar investment and exercise this clause?
Business law does not work on promises and intent. It works by the written word. And NWN's EULA has some words that lend themselves to some serious potential abuse of Blizzard's customer base. All this talk of intent and other EULAs does nothing to change the wording of this EULA.
Want to really take care of the confusion? Round up your corporate legal cousel and fix the EULA.
I hope Blizard does change the EULA. I would hate to have this issue darken all the hard work Blizzard has put towards what promises to be an increadible gaming environment.
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
I'm confused.
Blizzard wrote Warcraft, Starcraft, etc.
Bioware wrote/are writing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.
Blizzard may have an EULA like this, but why criticise them in response to a comment from a Bioware guy?
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
no, you cannot use your friend's novel [...], or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA. Your friend can create a module based on his novel.
This seems rather silly. You're saying that, while my friend can grant me permission (as he is the copyright holder on the novel) to photocopy it ten thousand times and sell the copies, he cannot give me permission to produce a Neverwinter Nights module based on his book? I'm sure that any authors who'd been planning to hire programmers or skilled graphic artists to create modules for their settings will be very saddened by this restriction.
Yet another case of a large software company attempting to redefine law through an illegal contract, I guess. (No meeting of minds, revealed after the sale, no legally binding signature.... Even the judgements/laws that say that using software is copying are somewhat tenuous justifications)
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2, Interesting)
Do you have a way to distinguish modules created by your toolset from modules created by a third party toolset?
With the vast majority of tech geeks that play BioWare games, it is only a matter of time before an editor gets released that has no restrictions on the content created.
Or are you going to restrict the creation of third party toolsets as well?
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2)
You need new lawyers, mate: the one's you're using know NOTHING about copyright. If my friend gives me permission to use his novel it is none of your business. You can write any crap you like in your EULA but it isn't a magic document that suddenly allows you to interfere in other people's copyright.
They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.
Yadda yadda yadda. What a load of fucking bullshit. You people are all the same, "I can steal your code/ideas but you can't use mine; it's for your own good". Who do you think believes this crap? 5-year-olds? You're just another pirate trying to hide behind legal-sounding claptrap.
In closing: stick it up your arse, you crook.
TWW
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:2, Interesting)
As someone else here has already had, you need to get new lawyers if this is your counsel-advised legal opinion. Copyright exists in order to give copyright holders the right to make a reasonable profit from their creations for the duration of the copyright (which is too long right now but that's an entirely different subject). That means that my "friend" has the unalterable right to say to me (and put such in writing), "Sure, Aaron, you are welcome to use Moe, Investigator of the Odd; Robin the Clown; etc. in your role-playing module! Go to town!"
You have no more right to restrict my ability to do this than (as yet another poster pointed out) Microsoft has the right to restrict my ability (having been given permission) to use C++ to create an entirely new video game based on those characters.
I understand that game publishers think (and have apparently been told by their lawyers) that if something is in the EULA, it must be true, but if this type of restriction is pressed I think you are going to find out that you're wrong.
-Aaron
Re:Greetings from BioWare (Score:3, Informative)
Not quite. Let's try Unreal Tournament, which is also released by Infogames. The relavent clause:
(quoted from System/license.int on one of the GOTY CDs, the license.int in my Linux installation doesn't even have this EULA (it may have been removed after installation, or it may not even apply to the Linux version from Loki)).So it looks like you got the "we get unlimited right to redistribute" from Infogames. But nowhere do i see any clause similar to Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available. From other comments, it appears yuor examples don't have any such clause either.
In summary: nice try, but it really helps to have your facts straight so you don't look completely clueless.
OOOhh Scary Liscense... (Score:2)
GPL infestation! Fun for the whole Penguin family
Re:OOOhh Scary Liscense... (Score:2)
THE question (Score:2)
Does it work in Wine or WineX ?
EULA (Score:2, Redundant)
Now the funny thing is that Bioware is in the US. Which means I'm not bound by their EULA, but if I slap one on my module, they're bound by that. <grin>
Re:EULA (Score:5, Informative)
Re:EULA (Score:2)
Solution: write an Open Source toolset (Score:4, Interesting)
I am sure this is eventually going to happen anyway, bad EULA or not.
Re:Solution: write an Open Source toolset (Score:2)
Do NOT agree to the EULA
Reverse engineer the file format.
Only create whatever minimal tools you require.
Create a mod by hand.
Thoughly document the process.
Release the mod, do not release any tools you made.
Give no hint that you didn't use their toolkit.
Then proceed to sue BioWare to hell and back when they steal your mod.
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EULA - This behavior must not continue! (Score:2, Offtopic)
Chill ... (Score:2, Insightful)
So this EULA says that anything you create is basically theirs? Yes, it sucks. But that's the conditions and you have two choices. Either you agree to it, or you don't.
It's not exactly a tough decision. However cool the thing is, you do have the option to not agree to the licence and therefore not use it.
Of course, it may mean you can't create your own Neverwinter Night scenarios, but that is what comes of not agreeing to their terms and conditions.
Put it another way. You can come into my house if you take your shoes off. That's the conditions, you either do it, or you don't and go elsewhere. And if you miss my party (and the copious amounts of beer that was there) because you didn't want to take your shoes off, then that is your decision and can't go blaming me for not letting you abide by my rules (however silly or pointless you felt they were).
I fail to see the issue here. Yes, the licence does suck. But they're not a monopoly, they're not forcing you to agree to the EULA and you certainly can continue to happly live in the world without agreeing to it.
Re:Chill ... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is equivalent to Ford saying that because I used Ford tools to machine after market engine parts for my Mustang that they can take ownership of those parts (or at least the design) at any time, and that I can not sell those parts to others.
I'm fine with the concept of selling software, I may believe in OSS but not exclusively, and as a coder I won't begrudge other coders the oppurtunity to make a living selling their software. What I am not ok with is Bioware turning corporate thug and trying to tell me what I can or cannot do with MY creations. Furthermore, I believe that despite Derek's statements to the contrary I CAN use copyrighted characters and settings provided that I don't make a profit from them, I'm reasonably certain this falls under fair use hence fan fiction.
Regardless of whether I agree with the license included, I don't have to live without the product. Bioware is (will be) selling a tool, once that tool is in my posession I can do with it what I like, when I like. I've agreed to the only license term that should be legal, I've paid some monetary price for the use of this tool, I will not copy it and circumvent Bioware's ability to make a living selling this tool, by distributing the copys, but that is the ONLY moral obligation I feel I owe once the product is purchased.
All I can say is that I wish I had the cash to fight them on this. It would be a worthy cause to start a company who's whole purpose is to expose the shit that software developers are trying to pull. I'd love to create a module, sell it for a penny and fight Bioware in court over my right to do so.
Lame Win32 installer (Score:2)
WTF is this, why do I have to install games into my OS installation? That's what D: and
Looks like they're shooting for the LCD here...
Re:Lame Win32 installer (Score:2)
BioWare killing their own fanbase (Score:5, Insightful)
I will never create content for any platform when the creator of that platform OWNS THE CONTENT. Many people have given many reasons why this is stupid, but I'll add my own: if UIUC owned the intellectual property rights to any website ever made that could be viewed in their web browser in 1993, would there be an Amazon or Slashdot or ESPN.com or (insert pron site here).com? No, absolutely not. Does Nintendo own the rights to every third-party game produced for Game Boy Advance or GameCube? No.
BioWare could have made US$49.99 per gaming friend of mine. They would have all purchased this product, to play high-quality games made by many different people -- and to create their own. NeverWinter Nights is a great product idea in that it gives people an arena to be creative in and it requires people to buy the game to see that creativity! It is practically a license to print money!
But, alas, most serious game designers -- the ones that make great games that stand the test of time -- won't touch this with a ten-foot pole. With this EULA, would there have been CounterStrike? Or Team Fortress/Quake? Probably not. How many people bought HalfLife to play CS? Or Quake to play TF? Enough to make clauses like the ones in the BioWare EULA an extremely poor business decision.
Of course, legally speaking (I am not a lawyer...) they are 100% within their rights to license their software in this way. If you just want to play the single-player experience, or to play third-rate modules, fine. Everyone else should stay away from NeverWinter Nights -- don't let your hard work get stolen.
Re:BioWare killing their own fanbase (Score:2)
I'd put money down that, either way, there will be more people that don't care than do. I sure as hell don't care. As specified in a previous post, if they put my stuff on CD and sell it, then hey, fuckin' a, bragging rights until the end of time. Most people who do mods don't do it for the money (money? from gamers? for something they don't have to pay for? HAHA!), and the few that do end up sorely disappointed. You're more likely to make money having your stuff packaged on CD and having people who buy it visit your website for updates and click on a 'donate' paypal link than you are to make people pay.
So really, what do you lose except control, and no one really has that on the internet anyway.
--Dan
Re:BioWare killing their own fanbase (Score:2)
Sure, the fact that this aircraft has a self-destruct button on each seat might sound a bit frightning, but it would be a ridiculously stupid idea for them to actaully be used... it would be suicide for anyone to push one.
You just know sooner or later the button is going to get pushed. Installing them is a bad idea in itself.
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EULA - Money for nothing and your mods for free (Score:2)
Everyone seems to be pissed about the part that gives Bioware and Infogrames the right to stop you from distributing some module you made for their game. That part doesn't shock me at all; in fact it makes perfect sense. Imagine someone makes a highly racist mod. Who do you think gets hammered in the media? The mod maker? Or the people selling the game?
Of course, the nice way of doing this would be to add a notice when you load a non-Bioware mod saying "Bioware has nothing to do with this; anything you see in this mod is the sole responsibility of its author". But of course, of they did that, they wouldn't be able to add the second part.
And that's the part that definitely does shock me.
Bioware and Infogrames want to automatically own every module that anyone makes, and be able to sell it for a profit while at the same time forbidding the modules' authors from doing the same thing.
If they want to release a module pack, fine. All they need to do is make the modules. If they want to use modules made by other people, they should be required to get the authors' permission (and if the author wants to get paid, they can either pay what he wants or simply not include that module in the pack). Likewise, if the module's author wants to sell it, he should have to get Bioware's approval.
This would be the same as Microsoft saying that any program written for Windows (which is "their game") or compiled with Visual C++ ("their toolkit") automatically belongs to them, and them only. Actually, I'm pretty sure that if Bill reads Bioware's EULA, some MS lawyers are going to get fired for not coming up with this first.
I don't know what laws are like in the USA and Canada, but I would be very surprised if this was even legal.
RMN
~~~
Re:EULA - Money for nothing and your mods for free (Score:2)
Hm... did you read the rest of my post...?
What's wrong with simply making people accountable for their own actions?
As I said (did you read the rest of my post?), that would be the right way of doing it, but then they couldn't claim ownership of all mods. How could they say "we own all modules but we're not responsible for their content"...?
RMN
~~~
Re:EULA - Money for nothing and your mods for free (Score:2)
If people accept that the modules won't belong to them (as many people here seem to), then they must accept any other restrictions (after all, if the module "belongs" to Bioware, why shouldn't they be able to decide if it lives or dies...?).
RMN
~~~
Straightforward IP Theft (Score:2)
Where's the incentive to develop anything if the publisher can just steal it from you ?
What's frustrating about this... (Score:2)
EULA to be reviewed (Score:5, Informative)
Good work to the concerned masses and good work to BioWare for listening to them
Re:Is there any other way to get the file? (Score:2, Interesting)
seperate disc if you pre-order the game.
I assume that you're going to need the game
to try out your adventures anyway, so you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Re:Is there any other way to get the file? (Score:2, Informative)
I can recommend wget, which has an option (-c) to enable resuming downloads.
It's available both for Linux (Unix) and Windows. Just Google for "wget download" and possible Windows if you need the port.
Of course, you can also use a GUI program, such as GetRight (don't know url). It has advertising banners, but I don't think you'll notice them if you let it download overnight
Re:So, what hapenedto the game? (Score:2)
C//
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hardly. That's like saying that because Apple has invested years into developing iMovie, I owe them unrestricted access to movies I make with it. Wrong. Their compensation from me came when I purchased their product. Why should I compensate them any further by giving them any rights to my creations?
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:3, Informative)
Okay, the difference that I see between the NWN toolset and iMovie is that what you create with iMovie is 100% your content. You went out and filmed it, and put it on your computer. Apple didn't provide you with people to be in your movies, stock plotlines if you're trying to make something cinematic, etc.
When you do something with the NWN toolset, you're USING NEVERWINTER. Not only have you been provided with the tools, but you've been provided with the content. ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION. While that may arguably be the single most important part of a good campaign, the fact remains that you've used our toolset to lay some tiles (which we made) place some models (which we made) use some textures (which we made - but it's possible for you to make) and use a scripting language (which we made) to provide behaviours. Did I mention that the creatures, weapons and items are all things that were made at BioWare? Oh, and you're working within a rule-set that belongs to someone else, too.
In the end, I think it's less about the EULA being a bad thing, and more about the law being something that everyone has to protect themselves from. BioWare and Infogrames lawyers have said (I suspect) that to protect ourselves, we must have this clause in the EULA. Yeah, that sucks, but that's the law. We don't want trouble - who does - but the legal system will make life hell for SOMEONE if something goes bad. I also greatly suspect that something like this is in the EULA BECAUSE there was trouble somewhere in the past.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm just a programmer, and I love NWN. If you don't want to create content because you're afraid that you'll be getting screwed, don't. There's a fantastic single player game that'll be well worth your money, and you don't have to worry about using OTHER people's modules, right?
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
You're kidding, right?
That's a pretty ridiculous chain of logic. What is it you added to your computer in order to help create NWN? That's right, nothing but your imagination. (making some assumptions,) You used an IDE written by another company, wrote in a language invented by someone else; you used various utilities written by other people, your computer was manufactured by others, and so on. Hell, you even used someone else's gaming system. (AD&D) So technically, NWN belongs to a whole group of people who gave you the tools you needed to make the game.
Of course, none of those people put clauses in the licensing agreement that you wouldn't own the things you created. Would you use a compiler that made you give up ownership of any program you compiled with it? If not, why do you expect people to want to use the NWN toolkit?
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
My point is that you get a lot more with NWN than with an IDE or something like iMovie.
Keep in mind that I'd be happier without the EULA, too. I'm a BioWare programmer, but I'm a Linux and MacOSX user, and I'm the only person at the company (that I'm aware of) that uses EMACS to edit code. In the end, though, the system makes the rules, and the lawyers just try to keep us out of hot water. The EULA may read harshly, but the way it's worded really DOES eliminate confusion, and I'll bet that it's hard to start a lawsuit with language like that in there.
But hey, I'm just a programmer.
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
It's Quake 101.
Of course a lot of work goes into creating NWN; it's a spectacular product. But a lot of work goes into Microsoft Windows, too, and the owner of that particular piece of work seems satisfied charging per-update rather than royalties for every piece of software that graces the platform. It's not about (shouldn't be about) the relative simplicity of the people creating with your product against the complexity of the work your programmers put into the product. Rather, it should be about finding a marketing system that works for the company.
On a tangentially-related note, The Sims is still fetching $40 in the stores after all these months (years?). Why is that, and is there something to that marketing plan that Bioware could tap into by encouraging a user community of cost and no-cost add-ons to the original product... which is reasonably groundbreaking at this time?
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
While I agree with the basis of your argument on some level, that everything is built out of pieces that someone else provided, I'm not convinced that the parallels exist. Maybe they do.
In the end, I'm really just trying to stick up for my company, and play a bit of devil's advocate at the same time. I really have no choice but to support EULAs, since they're a product of the legal system that we're in. I think we should really be looking at what can be done about a legal system that ALLOWS EULAs to exist. I don't think I've ever read one that I agree with 100%, but despite the rhetoric, it isn't so easy to just NOT install software.
Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
One of the components is a scripting language. Right there it puts the toolkit on par with an interperter or compiler, and puts the resulting mod on par with a program. As a programmer you can't fail to see it.
devil's advocate
Demon perhaps, but not devil
If you really want to play devil's advocate you have to argue the case for Microsoft's Windows Mediaplayer EULA. That one reserves the right to download arbitrary executables onto your machine at will and the right to explicitly trash your files. (Both of these clauses are motivated by DRM.)
I'm really just trying to stick up for my company
Was there a subtle (or not so subtle) hint that employees should try and do some damage control on the BioWare and/or Slashdor messageboards?
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Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules? (Score:2)
And you're right, I can't fail to see the parallel between our language (which is arguably a proprietary language on a proprietary system...but I'm not sure that matters) and a normal compiler. The OTHER pieces of the toolkit, though (the capacity to place objects, creatures and players, and have them exist within the rules of the AD&D system) seem to be a little more than a simple compiler.
Not at all... (Score:2, Insightful)
Geeks love gaming. A lot of them may wish that all the greatest games came out for Linux too, but that's simply never going to happen--realistically, some of the best games will always be "bought" or developed by Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, or developers in an "exclusive relationship" with them. Consequently, as closed and proprietary as most consoles are, a lot of geeks will buy them. Likewise, as proprietary as Windows is, a lot of geeks will always keep a Win partition or gaming box. One can still dislike the reality while acknowledging it.
I for one will always have Windows for gaming. Even if every new title were to start shipping with Linux support, that wouldn't replace my library of great and classic titles which are Windows-only What I'd really like is to be able to run all my games under one single unified platform--a pipe dream, even with emulators getting more numerous and better. No version of Wine is ever likely to run all of our favorite PC games, unless by some miracle the Win9x source is opened--yeah, maybe in 50 years.Likewise, it will be a very, very long time until we can play *Luigi's Mansion* under a Gamecube emulator for our computers. So, until those days come, there is no hypocrisy in using Windows or another closed platform for gaming--just as I can advocate better and more humane treatment for cows and other animals while not completely denying myself meat; just as I can be a proponent of alternative fuel systems to replace current oil-based systems, without having to walk everywhere.
Aside from which, if every Linux-using geek in the world never bought another Windows game again, it wouldn't make a dent in the sales figures. Almost all games are targeted, naturally, at a more general audience than "Linux evangelists, ages 12-36." What can be useful is buying the Linux versions of games that will have Linux versions--that way voices get heard, and game developers get encouraged to port to Linux. Not buying Windows-only games will not, however, encourage porting to Linux, since most end-users use Windows and a boycott by Linux users will be statistically insignificant.
Not that it matters, anyway, because I think NWN will have a Linux verion anyway if I'm not mistaken. So, go buy the Linux port when it comes out and stop whining. If I misread and a Linux port isn't planned, then write and politely ask for one, and enough letters may convince them.
In any event, stop trolling and go to bed. No soup for you!
Re:Not at all... (Score:2)
Mmm... generalizations. (Score:2)
Mmm. Yeah. I think I have a copy of Starcraft somewhere, with about six inches of dust on it. Might've gotten lost in a move. Could care less, really.
I run seven systems on my home LAN. Games are installed on none of them. Might be the fact I'm a Mac user. Might also be the fact that I have better things to spend my money on that hardware upgrades for systems that run photoshop just fine but blow chunks and repeatedly slam themselves against the wall trying to run Unreal Tournament above 5 fps.
I see the toolbox isn't available for MacOS/X. Somehow, this doesn't bother me. Oh yeah, it's because I haven't had enough free time for games in three years.
Re:hypocrisy (Score:2)
"regardless of your feelings" ?? (Score:2)
What seperates
1. Blizzard is evil. (Bnetd)- refer to continual mithering about bnetd case every time any form of Blizzard news makes the FP.
2. Warcraft III is gonna be cool!
3. MPAA / DRM / Entertainment Industry is Evil!
4. Matrix Trailer! Star Wars!
5. Windows is EVIL!- refer to any time any member of microsoft does anything that's not approved by the Moral Majority, which is immediatly posted to the FP.
6. Neverwinter Nights Toolset!!! Oooo! (NO mention that it's WINDOWS ONLY *ANYWHERE* in the article blurb. Had to read comments.)
Plain and simple,
Re:Massive Multiplayer? (Score:2, Interesting)
It lools more like a small community playing together on a single server or exploring servers.
Re:The difference is Modding versus story creation (Score:2)
Actually you likely can, copyrights don't last forever yet and I'm pretty sure that at least the U.S. copyrights for Metropolis have expired.
(This wouldn't include anything based on the derivitive work of the anime movie, just the original story is open for derivitive works to be made of it.)