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Lik-Sang Back Online, Minus Modchips 259

Posted by michael from the excess-inventory dept.
A reader writes "Lik-Sang is back, and it turns out that it wasn't just Microsoft that filed the lawsuit - Sony and Nintendo both joined in. The end result is that the modchips are gone."
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Lik-Sang Back Online, Minus Modchips More

Lik-Sang Back Online, Minus Modchips

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  • Yay for the "little" guy! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:30AM (#4454116)
    I'm glad these guys are back - They were a great source of legitimate goodies (LCD screens, etc) for my MP3Car project :)

    ~m

  • Gone for today... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by name_already_in_use ( 604991 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:30AM (#4454123) Homepage
    ...but back again tomorrow. When will these people learn that they will never be able to stop people inclined to play around with new technology playing around with new technology?

    learn to program the right way [slashdot.org]
    • They can easily move their mod chip manufacturing out of Hong Kong, and market them through flea markets, swap meets, and street vendors rather than online or in conventional retail outlets. This would probably get under Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo's radar. Economics 101: anything demanded will be supplied.

    • Re:Gone for today... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This is not about playing with new technologies. MS, Sony or Nintento couldn't care less about a small percentage of users modifying their consoles -- it's the mod chips that enable playing pirated games their biggest, and may I say, legitimate conserns.

      There're lots of rich people in China who can't wait to shell out money for a console. However, depsite this potentially huge market, both MS and Sony have so far decided _not_ to release PS2 or X-box in China. Want to guess why?
      • because its illegal as they're classified as super computers?

      • Re:Gone for today... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Gooba42 ( 603597 )
        As I recall, the modchips aren't 100% devoted to pirating. Some of them defeat region controls similar to DVD in order that people can play games from other regions i.e. that Japan-only release of Final Fantasy 5 that won't play on an unmodified US console. ( No, I don't know for a fact that FF5 in particular couldn't play on a US console, but off the top of my head it was the first game I thought of that wasn't released in the US.) Price fixing and captive audiences are not cool by me and I would definitely be less judgemental about the modchips because they aren't just a pirating tool.

        • Re:Gone for today... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by drasfr ( 219085 )
          That and other things, I do have 2 PS2 at home, one US, and one Japanese, I own quite a few Japanese games, including Para Para, DDR that I love to play. I actually put an order for a modded PS2 just the day liksang closed, because I was tired of having to switch between my 2 PS2s for games !!

          I don't care about pirated games, I think it is normal to buy things you use. But I want to be able to play ANY games I want and own, but I PAID for, on ONE console, and not have a mess of 2, having to unplug the cables and everything depending on the game I want to play. So, I am sorry, my usage of the modchip is perfectly legit!

          and I do want also a modded Xbox, not to play games, but I am very interested in Linux on it, why is it illegal to use Linux on a Xbox ?

  • Hmm.... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Mindcry ( 596198 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:30AM (#4454124)
    Time to set up a non-profit to pass out chips from foreign countries... or just relabel them as accessibility devices.

    Sucks.. someone fix it ;)

    • Re:Hmm.... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Jucius Maximus ( 229128 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:38AM (#4454201) Journal
      "Time to set up a non-profit to pass out chips from foreign countries... or just relabel them as accessibility devices."

      I think that the accessibility devices idea has merit. The same strategy is used to sell macrovision removal devices [stardevelopment.com] in the north american market without trouble from the mpaa.

      • Actually, call them "Backup disk players" because they allow you to play your one backup copy in case the first is broken. :) You should have a legal right to backup your software, and to use that backup copy should the first be destroyed. I think reverse engineering is even legal for interoperability, so probably no problem there.

        • Re:Hmm.... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by malfunct ( 120790 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:21PM (#4454535) Homepage
          I think the reason that "modchips" finally got nailed is they often use parts of the original bios of the machine which is copyrighted. Thats trouble no matter what you call the machine.
          • Yeah, that may be true. I'm not clear on how far the rights go for people hacking for interoperability. Reverse engineering, AFAIK, is allowed for this particular purpose. It's not breaking copyright laws still if you are allowed the one backup copy. That should hold true for BIOS as well. If you have to alter your backup copy to make it work, then that seems like reverse engineering for interoperability to protect a right that shouldn't have been taken away to begin with. What they could do and get away with is have people send in thier old bios chips and they could destroy them/fix them and send them back a fixed bios. It would be like me taking a book, converting it to brail(or an ebook), and sending it back. It shouldn't be a big deal for me to just distribute the ebook itself to people that have the book if there was a way to ensure that they had the book. The law is iffy here. Who breaks the law, the guy who lies to get the software, or the guy who takes the other by his word and sends it to him. It seems to be the later, but logically, I think it should be the first. The person actually getting the benefit of the operation is the first, and only he has a motive.

            I hate law :) Eventually I'll have to go to law school and try to make a dent in the stupidity.

    • Re:Hmm.... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by b1t r0t ( 216468 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:57AM (#4454363)
      I think Open Source Modchips would be a much better idea. After all, aren't most of them just code running on generic microcontroller chips?

  • Hide them. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Trusty Penfold ( 615679 )

    I noticed that LikSang sells joypads for the consoles. They should put the modchips in them - ie. bypass the console's security through the USB port - that way Microsoft, Nintendo, et.al. won't realise. Also, you wouldn't have to void your warrenty by soldering the modchip to the processor.

    • Re:Hide them. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Kenja ( 541830 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:34AM (#4454164)
      Even better, they should have the MOD chips be sixth dimensional constructs containing an infinite amount of three dimensional matter with a psychic link to the XBOX. Oh wait, that's just as unlikely as a USB only MOD.

      • Re:Hide them. (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        USB mod's exist for the PS2..

        • Re:Hide them. (Score:4, Informative)

          by Kenja ( 541830 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:40AM (#4454218)
          "USB mod's exist for the PS2."

          Yes they do. However they STILL require soldering at least one connection in the PS2 itself. The only solderless MOD for hte PS2 is internal and bridged between some ribon cables.

    • Re:Hide them. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 )
      "They should put the modchips in them - ie. bypass the console's security through the USB port..."

      Though I have no doubt the XBOX could be exploited this way, I'm reasonbly sure that Sony and Nintendo couldn't be bypassed this way.

      Actually I didn't really have anything interesting to say, I just wanted to make the "MS security is so bad that it could be infiltrated via the USB port" comment and obligatorily get modded up as interesting.

  • So now they (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fred911 ( 83970 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:31AM (#4454136) Journal
    will sell cheap programers,instructions and blank bios chips and show ya how to find the code.

  • the disclaimer (Score:5, Interesting)

    by exhilaration ( 587191 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:31AM (#4454138)
    However, Lik Sang is not committed on selling the questioned products in the future

    Are they waiting for a final ruling from the court? I guess the sentence above means that they'll wait to see which way the court leans before they bring the mod chips back.

  • So is this the end of X-box modding? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by merchant_x ( 165931 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:31AM (#4454140)
    Was Lik Sang the only supplier of X-Box mod chips that worked? Or does Microsoft now have to go and hunt down a dozen other distributors one at a time?

    • Re:So is this the end of X-box modding? (Score:5, Informative)

      by FreakinAye ( 617408 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:56AM (#4454357)
      Lik Sang was the only supplier of the Open Xbox PCBioxx chips. They're a LPC modchip which is flash upgradable via a LPT port without removing the cover of the xbox. A useful feature. From my understanding, LikSang actually bought Open xbox, so they were the sole first-level distributer... there may be other retailers who purchased large quantities and are still selling them. Freakin

    • Re:So is this the end of X-box modding? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by aGeMo ( 229752 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:00PM (#4454390) Homepage
      Nope the X-box modding scene is still alive and kicking. In fact the new no-solder mod (Matrix/Xodus) has been selling like crazy from easybuy2000.com. Since this chip comes with out any bios, i.e. free of any of Microsoft's copyrighted code, I believe they are free from Microsoft's wraith but that is yet to be seen.
      • Hack the xbox because it's fun [and free] to get it to run linux [which is free], but then have 3rd party vendors soak you for 59.00 bucks for a mod chip.

        It doesn't seem to fit the overall theme of hacking the xbox, but hey, if you're stupid enough to spend 59.00 bucks, go for it.

  • Ridiculous (Score:5, Funny)

    by unicron ( 20286 ) <unicron@@@thcnet...net> on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:32AM (#4454144) Homepage
    If these mod chips become any more difficult to obtain, I might have to buy the games I want...alright, fuck that, how much does a plane ticket to Hong Kong cost? Can't be that much, right?

    • Depends... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Rareul ( 537940 )
      You want to be crammed into economy for 24+ hours:

      $737.26

      9:25 PM Depart New York (JFK)
      Arrive Hong Kong (HKG) 9:35 AM +2 days Tue 5-Nov
      24hr 10mn China Airlines 11 / 601
      Connect in Taipei (TPE)
      Total stops: 2

      2:25 PM Depart Hong Kong (HKG)
      Arrive New York (JFK) 7:25 PM Thu 7-Nov
      17hr 0mn China Airlines 608 / 12
      Connect in Taipei (TPE)

      Or, you want one-stop lux:

      $12,315.26

      9:45 AM Depart Newark (EWR)
      Arrive Hong Kong (HKG) 6:15 PM +1 day Tue 5-Nov
      20hr 30mn United Airlines 895
      1 stop


      11:45 AM Depart Hong Kong (HKG)
      Arrive Newark (EWR) 5:09 PM Thu 7-Nov
      17hr 24mn United Airlines 896
      1 stop

      ?sp
      • I must be missing something. Why is it quicker getting there than coming back? And no, it doesn't have shit to do with the date line, overall flight time is overall flight time.
        • I think the jetstream is the answer. Flights from the UK/Europe are an hour or so shorter than the other way, for the same reason.
    • YM "I might not be able to buy the games that I want"

      Try obtaining a PAL Playstation version of Chrono Trigger sometime. Or Chrono Cross. Or Legend of Mana.

  • Whoah (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Apreche ( 239272 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:32AM (#4454145) Homepage Journal
    I can understand Microsoft and Sony going against Modchips, but why Nintendo? A mod-chip isn't going to do anything to a gamecube. I haven't seen anyone be able to bootleg gamecube games yet. AFAIK they are mini-dvds that spin backwards. That's a tough one to copy.

    It's also interesting how they go after lik-sang, but http://www.modchips.com aka http://www.gamegizmo.com is still up, and selling the best chips around. We modded our PSOne with one, and it works great.

    It's just like the Napster thing. They go after Napster, but Kazaa, Morpheus, WinMX all get to live.

    If 10 companies are breaking the law can't you sue them all at once?

  • From the article: (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Bobulusman ( 467474 )
    Please note that Lik Sang International Limited has always sold the products in questions with the legitimate use in mind and the products haven't been considered as illegal. All the Court Orders have been issued before hearing a single word from the company. However, Lik Sang is not committed on selling the questioned products in the future.
    Of course, it doesn't say they are committed not to sell them. Hmm....

  • ahhh justice... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 10 Speed ( 519184 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:32AM (#4454149)
    All the Court Orders have been issued before hearing a single word from the company

    remind me not to have legal problems in Hong Kong

  • Nintendo too? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by /ASCII ( 86998 )
    I thought this lawsuit was about mod-chips for running pirated software. But the gamecube uses those funky ~3 inch discs, so all GC mod-chips do is let you run legit games from another region. What am I missing?

    • Re:Nintendo too? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Sloppy ( 14984 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:46AM (#4454274) Homepage Journal
      None of this has anything to do with pirated games. It has to do with pirated BIOS. The chips contained derivative works of Microsoft's and Sony's, and Nintendo's BIOSes. The functionality of the modification (e.g. getting around region problems), is totally irrelevant. This isn't about vicarious or contributory infringement, it's about direct infringement.

      • Re:Nintendo too? (Score:2, Informative)

        by runderwo ( 609077 )
        This is not correct... PSX/PS2 modchips have never used Sony BIOS to accomplish protection defeating; they modify the protection data as it is transmitted across the system bus.

        The gamecube mod that exists is also a microcontroller mod.

        Xbox is only a copyright infringement case because they are using a cracked BIOS to defeat the copy protection. Not that anyone is selling the chips with the code on it, but because they are apparently marketing the blank flash devices for that purpose.

  • a lack of development products (Score:3, Interesting)

    by absurdhero ( 614828 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:34AM (#4454172) Homepage
    Unfortunately, they have been forced to not only stop selling mod chips, but they also had to stop selling console development tools. Such as the Gameboy Advance linkers. I guess I wont be buying a BGA to write software for.
    • Odd thing is, the SNES backup devices are still there, yet Gameboy ones are gone. PSX 'mod-free' boot discs are still there, yet Sega Saturn modchips are gone. Weird stuff indeed.

      There are plenty of other places to find such things, or you can even learn how to build your own if you google for the schematics. It's easier than you'd think.
  • "...it turns out that it wasn't just Microsoft that filed the lawsuit - Sony and Nintendo both joined in. The end result is that the modchips are gone."

    That must be plenty embarrasing to all the people that cried "MS is enforcing law in China!!!" when this whole BS started.

    • No they shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)

      by FreeUser ( 11483 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:23PM (#4454560)
      "...it turns out that it wasn't just Microsoft that filed the lawsuit - Sony and Nintendo both joined in. The end result is that the modchips are gone."

      That must be plenty embarrasing to all the people that cried "MS is enforcing law in China!!!" when this whole BS started.

      By "MS is enforcing law in China" I assume you are either (a) disingenuously putting words in people's mouths no amount of perusing the old comments can corroborate, or (b) you were characterizing (for whatever reason) comments accusing MS of defining the law in China, export US law to China, etc.

      All of which may be true, to one degree or another. No one should feel at all emberrassed to have made such accusations, which appear on may fronts to be demonstrably true. Now, if someone said "Microsoft is the only company defining law in China/exporting US law to China" then they should be quite emberrassed. After all, it is clear, at the very least, that the member corporations of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) have been doing likewise, and others may well be engaged in similiar behavior. Yes, even other software companies *cough* Adobe *cough* or, in this case, a trust of gaming companies.

      The fact the Microsoft has been shown to be part of a trust, a consortium, or if you prefer, a cabal of corporations engaging in the same ill-mannered and obscene behavior shouldn't make anyone feel emberrassed for having pointed out the fact ... indeed it merely confirms their behavior. The fact that others behave equally despicably doesn't make Microsoft any less despicable.
      • "No one should feel at all emberrassed to have made such accusations, which appear on may fronts to be demonstrably true. "

        Actually, nobody was running on any good info. As this article points out, it turns out that MS wasn't the only one involved. The news article that originally ran did not:

        a.) Say what law was broken
        b.) How the Chinese Gov't was invovled
        c.) Provide a point of view other than MS shut a company down.

        Lots of people went off half-cocked about what was going on and flung accusations left and right. And yes, they should be embarrased about it. You should never reach such extreme conclusions without at least doing a little research first. Whether their suspicions are right or wrong is not the issue, the issue is that they arrived at that conclusion ill-informed.

        Check out this +5 post:
        http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=41966&c id=4422 793

        "Another proof, if any more was needed, that US laws don't apply to US citizens only..."

        Niether article says which law was used. In other words: Who says it's American Law? How do we know that Lik Sang didn't break Chinese law? The answer is: We don't. It is very clear that the injunction against them prevents them from discussing the case. So, because of this lack of info, lots of peeps make wild assumptions that MS did some Dr. Evil-esque superplot.

        I'm not saying MS was right or wrong. I'm saying that I've seen a bunch of silly extremist crap flying around with no base in reality, and a bunch more people saying "yeah!! he's right!". With some people, the less they know, the more right they think they are.

  • Lik Sang is back..... (Score:5, Funny)

    by BlameFate ( 564908 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:38AM (#4454202)
    ...... not for long, here comes /. :-)
  • A quick search for the GBA/GBC ROM modules (like the Flash Linker) turned up nothing. The MultiBoot stuff is still there, but that's it. Unless these items were removed long ago, in which case I'll stand corrected.

  • Good to have 'em back. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:39AM (#4454209) Journal
    They're a great site for console game freaks like myself, I've ordered a ton of hard-to-come-by and import stuff from them over the years.

    I can understand why certain mods are illegal, but not all of them.

    Ie;
    The xtender mod for xbox should be illegal. It's a bios replacement that contains a hacked copy of MS's copyrighted BIOS.

    The openxbox/pc-bioxx 'mod' is a blank flashrom with a parallel header. It could not only be used on an xbox, but on any motherboard that uses 8mbit bioses and has an LPC bus. It has tons of uses aside from piracy or running linux on xbox. Ever want to try that crazy bios hack for your mobo that unlocks freakishly high FSB and vCore settings? Here you go.

    Why can't they use the "primary function" clause to their benefit in this case?

    Why not just say the primary function of the device is to replace/play with the bios on the mobo in your PC, and not mention xbox?

    This isn't some shady trick to keep selling them, but frankly the truth. It really is a poor mans flashrom writer.

    Anyhow, anyone who really wants his xbox modded (provided he has the early revision that can be) can do so himself quite simply, if he has a mobo around with a socketed bios that he can use to flash the xbox' chip with.

    I worry the next step will be MS, Sony and Nintendo getting an injunction to stop them from exporting Japanese software to American/European markets. That'll really suck eggs.

    • Re:Good to have 'em back. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dirk ( 87083 ) <dirk@one.net> on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:15PM (#4454495) Homepage
      The openxbox/pc-bioxx 'mod' is a blank flashrom with a parallel header. It could not only be used on an xbox, but on any motherboard that uses 8mbit bioses and has an LPC bus. It has tons of uses aside from piracy or running linux on xbox. Ever want to try that crazy bios hack for your mobo that unlocks freakishly high FSB and vCore settings? Here you go.
      Why can't they use the "primary function" clause to their benefit in this case?
      Why not just say the primary function of the device is to replace/play with the bios on the mobo in your PC, and not mention xbox?

      If they were sold as "motherboard extenders" or something like that, then it would probably be legitimate. But it's hard to claim the main function is anything other than an XBox mod when they are sold as "XBox mod chips". If they marketted them as "motherboard extenders" they wouldn't sell many, because people wouldn't know that they worked with the XBox. It's a catch-22. If you don't market them as "XBox mod chips", people don't know what they are and won't buy them. If you market them as "XBox mod chips", you are admitting their primary function is to mod an XBox, and will be sued since it is illegal to market them.
      • It's a catch-22. If you don't market them as "XBox mod chips", people don't know what they are and won't buy them. If you market them as "XBox mod chips", you are admitting their primary function is to mod an XBox, and will be sued since it is illegal to market them.

        So advertise them as:

        Motherboard extender - WARNING: THIS PRODUCT IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN PLAYING BACKUP GAMES ON THE MICROSOFT XBOX(TM) GAME CONSOLE."

      • If you market them as "XBox mod chips", you are admitting their primary function is to mod an XBox, and will be sued since it is illegal to market them.

        Presuming you aren't using a copyrighted BIOS in your mod chip, please explain how it is illegal. Why is modifying the motherboard of a conventional PC fine, but doing the same thing to an XBOX not? There's nothing illegal about modifying something you own.

        Now if the goal was to market them as "XBOX copyright evasion devices", then you might have a point.
        • It is illegal because you are bypassing the copy-protection on the XBox, which is illegal under the DMCA. We can argue all day that the DMCA is a bad law, but until it is changed/overturned, it is the law. Regular motherboards don't have any copy-protection, so changing them isn't illegal under the DMCA. But the XBox has coopy protection, so by bypassing it you are breaking the law (whether it should be a crime or not).
          • But the XBox has coopy protection, so by bypassing it you are breaking the law

            How am I breaking the law by running Linux on an XBOX? What copy-protection scheme am I breaking? I'm not circumventing a copy-protection scheme, I'm circumventing the mechanism to prevent software not licensed by MS from running. No copyright involved.

            The access control mechanism being circumvented is access to the -device-, not to copyrighted material. The DMCA only covers mechanisms controlling access to copyrighted material, not access mechanisms in general. It may be illegal to hack a DRM player to play DRM content without checking, but it isn't illegal to hack a DRM player to play non-DRM content.

    • Why not just say the primary function of the device is to replace/play with the bios on the mobo in your PC, and not mention xbox?

      Because people who want to do that to their PC will have already bought the chip from a dramatically cheaper source and slapped them into their eprom burner. Console gamers typically will want to just buy a solution and have someone solder it in, and they won't be smart enough or well-informed enough to find the right part if it's not labeled clearly.

      Lik-Sang is a retail site, they sell (generally) finished products as their main business. They sell to average consumers, not just geeks.

  • Argh! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Twintop ( 579924 ) <david@twintop-tahoe.com> on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:41AM (#4454223) Homepage Journal
    Now the X-Box is going to suck again!

  • out on the street (Score:5, Funny)

    by khuber ( 5664 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:41AM (#4454229)
    You know these kids are just going to buy their chips on the street now. Who knows what those are cut with? Very likely inferior conductors.

    We will see a lot of kids getting hopped up on modchips and most likely addicted, only to suffer painful side effects like electrocution and intestine blockage due to the poor production standards of street fabs.

    -Kevin

  • I'm also noticing that mod-chips for dreamcasts are gone, which is rather interesting, because I sincerly doubt that Sega would try to sue Lik-Sang in their current state. Looks like they're just gonna play it safe for awhile.
    • Even odder is that a dreamcast mod doesn't enable pirated software.. That's already possible in it's unmodded state.

      All a dreamcast mod does is allow imported originals (read legitimate) to play.
    • Slight correction -- the dreamcast modchips and import adapters are still listed on the site, but are said to be "out of stock". hrmmmm.

  • ModChips (Score:5, Funny)

    by SniffleBear ( 604984 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:46AM (#4454278)
    ModChips allow consumers to use the hardware in a way it wasn't intended to, or to add enhancement or new features to the hardware.

    But then I see no difference with that and cutting up my PS2 and using the shell as a crap pot and using the circuits to make a mouse trap electrocuter.

  • Why Console Companies Use Copy Protection (Score:5, Insightful)

    by peterb ( 13831 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:49AM (#4454297) Homepage Journal

    Hint: It's not because they care if you play pirated games.

    Frankly, it's not as though mod chips are a very good deal for the consumer. They're expensive, they're a pain in the ass to install, and whatever you "save" in money (which, given the expense and risk that you ruin your console in installing them is already marginal) you easily outspend in time wasted copying lousy games. Frankly, the biggest problem facing today's gamer is not "games are too expensive" but "there are too many lousy games out there, how do I determine which ones to play?" A few well-chosen rentals are a more effective way of saving money than spinning your wheels doing surgery or CD burning.

    No. Very few consumers -- other than those addicted to piracy on general principles, or who get a kick out of feeling like they're getting away with something -- will ever install or use mod chips. The copy protection isn't there to prevent you from playing pirated games. The real target of copy protection in consoles is -- other game companies.

    For every PS2 game made, Sony gets a cut. For every Gamecube game made, Nintendo gets a cut. For every Xbox game made, Microsoft gets a cut. The copy protection on these consoles is the console manufacturer's way of making sure that they are not squeezed out of the transactions between the game developers and the consumer, the way Atari was with 3rd-party 2600 games.

    --peterb
    • For every Xbox game made, Microsoft gets a cut.

      What I don't understand is why is Microsoft more concerned in making a petty cut, when it is not able to sell the XBOX in the first place. I believe that the prospect of mod-chips and linux on XBOX fuelled the interest in XBOX and might have actually helped its sales. Well for a moment I was considering buying it. But now it remains doubtful.

      Seriously, if were Microsoft, I wouldn't bother spending a huge amount of money on some petty lawsuits, that too away from america in some foreign country. I'd actually use that money to secretly fund these kind of guys to make more research for these kind of mod-chips. In return I'll try to understand their techniques and make my product more secure in future (But I personally want Microsoft to fail always!). In the process fuel interest in the product and sell it more.

    • No. Very few consumers -- other than those addicted to piracy on general principles, or who get a kick out of feeling like they're getting away with something -- will ever install or use mod chips. The copy protection isn't there to prevent you from playing pirated games. The real target of copy protection in consoles is -- other game companies.

      For every PS2 game made, Sony gets a cut. For every Gamecube game made, Nintendo gets a cut. For every Xbox game made, Microsoft gets a cut. The copy protection on these consoles is the console manufacturer's way of making sure that they are not squeezed out of the transactions between the game developers and the consumer, the way Atari was with 3rd-party 2600 games.

      Now wait - you say that modding the game console is a niche market (which it is) and that not a whole lot of people do it. I agree with this. So how are the game companies protecting their investments against 3rd party games? Niche markets don't drive game development. So any 3rd party game that was made would only be able to be played on a modded system. No game company is going to go to that trouble.

      I don't really see big deal about mod chips. Now that there are legitimate uses (FAIR uses) for them, hopefully someone will market them as such. As long as it is marketed and sold as a legitimate use device (such as the GNU/Linux Xbox Chip) could MS go after the sellers? It isn't like you are installing another game system, it is a totally different environment. So it wouldn't even be about stifling the competition. Maybe that is what Microsoft doesn't understand. :-)

      • The idea is that a console without protection is a console that any idiot with a compiler and a CD burner can make games for. If your console gets flooded with a shitload of crappy indy games on the store shelves, your console dies (ref: Atari 2600).

        Nathan
    • They're expensive, they're a pain in the ass to install, and whatever you "save" in money (which, given the expense and risk that you ruin your console in installing them is already marginal) you easily outspend in time wasted copying lousy games.

      Many of us find soldering to be a relaxing activity which can be performed in our spare time. We think nothing of soldering 20 leads to legs of surface mount components because we have a temperature-controlled iron with a chisel tip and we aren't afraid to use it.

      How much do you charge yourself for leisure time anyway? "Well, me, it took you four hours to fix our car, that'll be $375." WTF? It's your time, you wouldn't be working in the fifteen minutes it takes to gut your PS2 and install a modchip anyway. You'd be sitting on your ass, playing GT3:A-Spec (I dunno what the hot PS2 game is now, I sold mine to pay rent) and not making a dime. Unless you're a playtester or game reviewer, in which case, write a review of the modchip.

      • Re:Why Console Companies Use Copy Protection (Score:5, Funny)

        by peterb ( 13831 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @02:37PM (#4455711) Homepage Journal

        Many of us find soldering to be a relaxing activity which can be performed in our spare time. We think nothing of soldering 20 leads to legs of surface mount components because we have a temperature-controlled iron with a chisel tip and we aren't afraid to use it.


        Ok, Ok, I admit it. Your penis is absolutely huge. I bow before your mighty staff, o hacker of hackers.

        As for me -- I actually charge quite a bit for leisure time. It's the most precious time I have. If you find soldering to be as rewarding an activity as playing videogames, then you're right -- installing modchips is a valuable use of your time. Those of us who find it an annoying, menial activity that is a complete waste of our gigantic brains, however, have a different decision-making process.
    • There is another angle to this. Not only to Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo get a royalty from every game sold, but they are also in competition with each other for game titles.

      So lets suppose you are a game developer. You can release on one, two, or all three of the platforms, but each platform is a costly port.

      Two of the platforms make a big point of making it hard for pirated copies of your game to run and the third does not. Would that make a difference in which of the three platforms you release on?

      After all a pirated copy of a game costs the console maker a royalty payment but it costs the sofware developer a whole sale.

  • So what? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SexyKellyOsbourne ( 606860 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:49AM (#4454300) Journal
    There are about a billion other websites that pop up in your face if you want modchips whenever you go to a good ol' http warez site. Just close down enough porno banners and eventually you'll find a modchip site -- it's a lot easier to find than the actual warez on the site itself.

    My brother installed a PS1 modchip when he was 11 years old, and it's not that hard at all to DIY.

    Lik Sang does sell tons of other cool stuff; modchips aren't their only resource.

  • Mr. Justice when I'm supposed to speak ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AlCoHoLiC ( 67938 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:49AM (#4454303)
    Lik Sang and it's employees couldn't even speak about the case due to an injunction of the High Court

    and

    All the Court Orders have been issued before hearing a single word from the company.

    I can't talk about the case and the injuction is issued before can I say anything? Honk Kong really looks like a nice place to live...

  • Manufacturer of Flash Linker Advance disappeared! (Score:4, Informative)

    by PsyQ ( 87838 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:51AM (#4454316) Homepage
    Visoly Inc. made a flash cart writer for use with the Game Boy Advance. It's used by many hobbyists [gbadev.org] to develop games.

    If you visit www.visoly.com now, all you get is a single line of text saying "Psychedelic Experimentation". A bug report form [visoly.com] on the same server is still intact as I write this.

    I hope this is just the work of script kiddies and has nothing to do with the Lik-Sang lawsuit, even though Lik-Sang must've been one of the largest distributors for Visoly products.

    If this does have a legal background, I thank Nintendo for taking away my only reason to own a GBA.

  • Modchips aren't Gone (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bluephile ( 596384 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @11:51AM (#4454317)
    As I understand, the legal problem with the chips is the bios that is included, as it contains copyrighted code from the console it runs on. Chips such as the OpenXBOX and Xodus/Matrix all ship without any bios included; you download the bios and flash it yourself. No legal problems with this, as they don't ship with any copyrighted code. I imagine that this is the future of chipping consoles; people can just go get their BIOS's from IRC, connect their modchip to the parrallel port, and flash.

  • Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rogerborg ( 306625 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:07PM (#4454446) Homepage
    • At September 16th a lawsuit against Lik Sang International Limited and it's directors has been filed in the High Court of Hong Kong by the companies Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft on infringing on copyrighted material and selling Mod Chips or other development and backup devices for the Plaintiffs consoles.

    Why would Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft buy mod chips for their own consoles?

    Oh, wait, I see what they mean. They mean "consoles made by the Plaintiffs, but then sold to purchasers with EULA's prohibiting modification in 2 point italic WinDings font on page 32 of the manual."

    I see where the confusion is coming from. Well, now that we've cleared that up, perhaps Lik-Sang could just explain Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft's mistake, and we could get back to doing whatever the hell we like with the piles of plastic and copper that the Plaintiffs chose to sell to us, and which we now own.

  • just selling an empty chip, and a small device that connects to a computer to program the thing?

    Then they can make the code available over the internet. Considering the customer base they probably don't even need to do this from their web site but rather they can spread it on file swapping services.

    Tor

  • The ability to make homebrew apps adds value. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Maul ( 83993 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:29PM (#4454613) Journal
    I knew that Sony and Nintendo were against modchips from the start, so it doesn't really surprise me to find out that they were part of this as well. Microsoft was still the big stick in this case, it seems. It is pretty strange that this happeend soon after people got Linux working on the X-Box.

    Apparently the tools that you need to develop homebrew GBA apps are also gone, however. I don't think that Nintendo needed to do that. The ability to create homebrew apps ADDS VALUE to systems.

    Not only is there a good selection of GBA games out there that I would be happy to go to the store and purchace, the fact that people have made tools that allow you to tinker with development make it an even cooler thing to have.

    I'd wager that the majority of people who make homebrew GBA apps also buy GBA games and are longtime Nintendo fans.

    At the very least, Sony provided a Linux kit to those who wanted to tinker with their Playstation 2 consoles. It might not be what everyone really wants, but it is still cool that Sony is at least meeting people half-way on the idea.

    Nintendo and Microsoft could benefit by following Sony's lead. By providing development kits for their systems, they could make some money by selling the kits, and increase interest in their system by featuring "fan made" games online that could be played and offering the added value of homebrew app development.
    • I'd wager that the majority of people who make homebrew GBA apps also buy GBA games and are longtime Nintendo fans.

      And I'd wager that the majority of people who buy flash kits from Lik-Sang did so to download roms and have bought few, if any, games since.

      I modchip my consoles, but I do buy domestic release games. And all units like modchips and flash kits have their honourable uses. Unfortunately, it's the pirating majority that these companies are worried about. Weird how the PS2 copy protection was easier to crack than the region protection...
  • It appears that most people on here don't understand what it is that is "wrong" with the MS X-Box modchip.

    A -- It contains MS Proprietary code that is copyright protected.
    B -- It was compiled using the Microsoft SDK (which in order to have you must sign an NDA and a HUGE EULA)

    So _PLEASE_ all the "It is my box I can do with it what I want" comments STOP! Sure it is -- if you wanna hack open your X-Box / VCR / DVD player / Microwave oven and "mod" it by all means do so. But oh -- wait -- you don't have the MS SDK? Or you don't know how to program ... well too bad. If someone comes out with a modchip that contains NO Microsoft code AND doesn't need the MS SDK to compile then MS wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But until then (and that will be a while). It is no different than them going after people pirating XP. I am sorry RMS -- I am not a mechanic ... I am not a dishwasher ... I am not a tollbooth clerk ... I wanna get PAID for my programming ability.

  • I remember when this news came out a week or 2 ago and all of you just bashed Microsoft left and right. Now it comes out Sony and Nintendo were involved I don't see any of you out bashing. Thats the problem with many of you on sites like this, you are so hateful of MS it blinds you. I think mod-chips should be stopped. They are being used to pirate games, and in turn thats going to hurt us in the long run since these companies make their money on game sales, not hardware. As for being able to play Japanese games, first there aren't really anything like that for x-box, second I do think we should be allowed to play them. I think there should be some kind of add-on sold by sony and Nintendo that allows people to legally play Japense games. I don't know about all this. I just wish some of you would open your eyes on issues like this.

    • Re:Your behavior doesn't suprise me... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ronfar ( 52216 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @01:52PM (#4455349) Journal
      Hi. Ok, this statement:
      I think there should be some kind of add-on sold by sony and Nintendo that allows people to legally play Japense games.
      shows a severe lack of understanding of the import issue. Sony and Nintendo have spent a great deal of money on research to make it difficult to play games in regions which they weren't produced for. The original "mod chips" were simple things like cartridge slot extenders. In early Playstations, all that was needed was to boot an American game, and then swap it during the boot process with a Japanese game. As the protection got more complex, the modchips also got more complex.

      The way you've written it, it sounds like you think that there is some need for Japanese games to be different than American games and Sony and Nintendo should just create a licensed adaptor. Why would they want to solve a problem which only exists because they've created it?

      As a customer, I don't think that Sony or Nintendo are any more worthy of my money than Microsoft. I think that the current business model of the console market should end. I mean the whole protection racket which the console manufacturers have with the game publishers, "Give us a kickback or we won't let your games run on our machines." It would be better for gaming if console makers made their money from manufacturing consoles and selling them for a profit and game publishers made money from publishing games without having to give kickbacks to the console companies.

      The trouble is, allowing the model to change would shift the power from the console companies to the game publishers. I think that would be a better model. I'd love to see some of the great Japanese game publisher slip the leashes that have been put on them by the console makers and operate more like PC game companies. I'd like to see what they would do with that freedom.

  • Game Boy Advance tools gone also (Score:5, Informative)

    by dstone ( 191334 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @01:00PM (#4454915) Homepage
    The parallel port & USB flash ROM tools also appear to be gone. This has nothing to do with BIOS, by the way. These are tools that allow you to upload binaries (either copied or original code compiled with GCC and other tools) to a flash ROM and run it on any GBA. These products are likely offensive to Nintendo because:
    1) consumers could pirate games with them
    2) smalltime and wannabe developers could create demos and games with them without forking out big money for the official GBA dev hardware

    I'm sure #1 is the main concern for Nintendo. But they've really done a disservice to the GBA demo scene and developers & students that want to get their feet wet with a really great platform.

    If you're unfamiliar with #2 (developing your own demos/games/apps for GBA), please take a look at some GBA developer scene links:
    GBADEV [gbadev.org]
    GBAEMU [gbaemu.com]
    Yahoo GBADEV Group [yahoo.com]
    GBA Dev'rs [devrs.com]

  • Interesting (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The Bungi ( 221687 ) <thebungi@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @01:30PM (#4455157) Homepage
    It's really interesting to see that this story doesn't have 700+ comments bashing the Evil Empire. Now that Nintendo and Sony are involved, it's still bad, but not that bad, eh?

    You gotta love Slashdot. And yes, the truth hurts.

  • Dreamcast Mod Chips (Score:2, Interesting)

    by docstrange ( 161931 )
    I noticed that Lik-Sang is still selling dreamcast Mod-Chips. (well they're still listed anyways but out of stock)

    http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=42&pro du cts_id=68&

    I understand that the dreamcast has reached the end of it's life. I also understand that most dreamcast consoles can run "backups" with no modchip whatsoever; however so have other consoles that had equipment designed for them removed from the site. Maybe sega just doesn't care, or maybe they overlooked it. Either way it's bold to leave anything out there when you're under the microscope like I'm sure these guys are right now.
  • The last mention of this [slashdot.org] not only painted MS as the big bully that shut these guys down, but was also filled with posts about MS's crappy business plan that required strong anti-piracy|theft tactics. When we do our homework and realize that Nintendo and Sony were also involved, we easily ignore the fact that we spent 100's of posts bashing MS for "strong-armed" tactics. Why aren't we bashing the other two companies left and right?

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