PCGen to Charge for Data Files 158
ChrisDolan writes "The folks who benevolently dictate the creation of PCGen, a D20 character generator tool (e.g. for D&D), are going to start charging for downloads of data files. This comes after a long series of talks with Wizards of the Coast. The PCGen code will continue to be LGPL, but some of the data files (a separate download) will be more encumbered than just OGL (Open Gaming License). The specific data files that will cost are ones that were never released under OGL and have WotC IP in them. Details on the Code Monkeys site." PCGen is a nifty app, but all this stuff annoys me. I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.
Is this really a surprise? (Score:4, Insightful)
2) A company finding another way to try and squeeze a few dollars of revenue during tough times.
Re:Is this really a surprise? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Is this really a surprise? (Score:3, Interesting)
Threewave CTF ? Team Fortress ?
Re:Is this really a surprise? (Score:5, Informative)
These closed source data files were already typed up and hosted on sourceforge before WotC stepped in and put a halt to their distribution. This means fans of the d20 system already did the work to write up the data files using the dead tree books they already paid for. They were then hosting it on a system which WotC had nothing to do with, and didn't have to pay for. Fans were already filling this gap for free.
The key here, I think, is control. Wizards is afraid that by allowing the guys at PcGen to distribute their IP for free, people would lose interesting in buying the dead tree versions. To try and counter this threat, much of the write ups in the fan created content contained notes such as "As defined on page 231 of the Players Handbook". This compromise wasn't good enough, it seems.
As another point of interest, Wizards already created and sells their own version of a Character Creator [wizards.com] for the d20 system which basically competes directly with the open source PcGen. You can download the demo version for free from their website. As you say, the commercial effort is a lot more professional than PcGen, but PcGen has a lot more features.
Re:Is this really a surprise? (Score:1)
MIKE
Re:Is this really a surprise? (Score:2)
Now with this being said I still like 1st and 2nd Ed better but I can do simple math in my head and THAC0 makes a decent amount of sence to me.
What relevance does this have? (Score:1)
The team that's making PCGen isn't making any money off of this.
Conspiracy theorists might argue WotC is doing this to keep PCGen from competing with its own proprietary equivelent, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
Why, back in my day... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why, back in my day... (Score:5, Interesting)
On a semirelevant note, I modified an IRC bot I wrote to roll arbitrary numbers of dice of arbitrary sides and print totals to the channel so if for some reason you're playing over IRC you don't have to rely on any person to roll dice, this way everyone can see the roll. See here. [muohio.edu]
Re:Why, back in my day... (Score:2)
I agree with you about the d20 system over 2nd ed; MUCH more intuitive, and much easier to comprehend. It's also a lot easier from the GM's perspective. I've not actually played 3rd ed yet, as I've been playing White Wolf's Aberrant for the last four years, but the elegance of the system has me SERIOUSLY interested. I hope to start in a few weeks.
PCGen is actually one of the things that has me so interested in 3rd ed. Everything for a character (ok, not EVERYTHING, but most things) is managed, leaving more time for concentrating on the game itself.
Re:Why, back in my day... (Score:2)
It's been fun.
Ya, I don't get the point either (Score:3, Insightful)
With all due respect to the PcGen people, I could never understand the point of a "character generator". You download and install an app so that you can shave a couple of seconds off of character generation? What's the *point*? If anything, you lose part of the gaming experience.
I mean, how often do you need to generate a freaking character?
Not to be confused... (Score:1, Informative)
Charge users twice? heh heh (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Charge users twice? heh heh (Score:1, Troll)
heathen
I recall a couple of games where we did the whole thing diceless. you had an equipment list, etc, but the ref described to effect (you are feeling rather tired, dizzy, or whatever) instead of saying "that's 5 points of damage"
reguires the game master to be impeccably fair, and good at describing the intermediate stages
Re:Charge users twice? heh heh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Charge users twice? heh heh (Score:3, Funny)
Fortunately, DRM systems will close this gaping hole in the future. Thank God for Palladium and friends!
(and because there are morons, yes, morons who read Slashdot, "</sarcasm>". If you didn't realize that this message was sarcastic until you read this paragraph, I'm talking about you.)
Re:Charge users twice? heh heh (Score:1)
Most of the people I play with still use 2nd edition, don't think we'll be changing any time soon.
Check the whole facts. (Score:4, Informative)
Me? I'm sticking with my 3.0 books, and I'll borrow from what I like in 3.5, but I'm not shelling out the money. Quit whining! Sheesh, it's like you think you deserve free copies of the new books, or something...
Re:Charge users twice? heh heh (Score:2)
Who wants to bet... (Score:5, Interesting)
Boy... Wotc is sure grabbing for money now... this play, as well as the upcoming revised editions of the core books... which in all likely hood will not get the same reduction in price to start with as the un revised version did...
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:2)
Ya know, to check it out.
So, where's the charging??
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:1)
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:2)
If they're charging for something that will be available, but isn't now, that's different!
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:1)
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:2)
Yeah, you have to pay whole $5 to get data for every supplement published, or, lacking proper amount of money, get off your rump and actually generate the characters - gasp - manually. Evil money-grubbing capitalist fascist pigs! =(
Seriously: I have no problems with getting high quality, comprehensive data sets for, say, 5 euros. And PCGen is just so good that I might pay that much to get this data. The character generator itself is free, but I might clearly pay for the data.
Just hope they get WotC to sell it on CD-ROM in game stores, payable in hard cash - international banking is hell without a credit card...
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:1)
Myself, I'd like to know what percent of the cost goes towards PCGen, and what goes to WotC as licensing fees... not to mention that it's unclear if $1 to $5 will net you the entire set of data files, or if it will be per book... (probably per book, at a guess)
I actually prefer generating characters by hand anyway... PCgen just tends to make it simple to make and update digital copies of the character.
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:1)
Check the lastest Q&A [codemonkeypublishing.com].
Why do these data files change? Well, historically, developing versions of PCGen occationally break backward compatibility and/or reorganize the data files. There has always been a converter buit into the program, but I think it's range of updating old files is limited.
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:1)
Every company has one purpose- make money. You can throw all the BS you want at it, but money is what fuels the machine. Somebody has to pay for the staff members to write the rules, to test them out, to balance things. They also need to create the modules, expansion books, blah blah. Adults arent going to do this full-time for free; they have bills to pay, families to feed, kids to send to college, etc. This stuff takes money, and free beer for you isnt going to pay for that.
Grow up
Re:Who wants to bet... (Score:1)
-Those- books pay for the staff members.
You don't seem to get what PCgen is... it's a program that can be used to organise character data. the authors of the program went out of their way to create the data files so you need the books to understand what you're doing, because they want to support the companies as well.
Take a look at the old data files...
Crippling Strike
TYPE:Rogue
VISIBLE:No
PRECLASS:Rogue=10
SA:Crippling Strike SOURCEPAGE:p.48
Acid Fog
SCHOOL:Conjuration
SUBSCHOOL:Creation
COMP
CASTTIME:1 action
RANGE:Medium
EFFECTS:30' rad x 20' high
EFFECTTYPE:Fog
DURATION:1 round/level
SAVEINFO:None
SPELLRES:Yes
SOURCEP
DESCRIPTOR:Acid|Water
(2 random examples from an old version...)
Utterly useless without the book, no? There was a huge discussion at one point on the PCgen list about actually putting in a decription for the feats/spells/skills, but the creator chose not to, to prevent copyright issues from cropping up.
The -only- way PCGen costs WotC any money (seeing it's done by the community) is the fact that WotC can't make decent sales with thier own character creator (and other tools bundled with it), due to the low quality, and the fact that it was greatly delayed in release.
Now, if PCgen was released by WotC, as an official product, I can see them quite rightly having a cost associated with it... however it's not, and it's very existance is seen as a benifit by a number of other d20 publishers.
Waaahhh... (Score:4, Insightful)
Really now -- how much do RPG gamers typically spend on thier book collections (generally measured in bookshelf-yards -- I'm only up to about 4 feet or so, but I've been slacking off lately)? I don't even want to START adding up the cover prices of those books. Is a little extra cash to get the convinience of some of that data on a computer really going to hurt the pocket book?
Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that you have to pay for all of the GURPS character creators, as SJ Games certainly won't let you give thier data away for free. But it happens to a d20 chargen, and people start whining? Whatever.
Re:Waaahhh... (Score:2)
Re:Waaahhh... (Score:4, Informative)
Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that you have to pay for all of the GURPS character creators, as SJ Games certainly won't let you give thier data away for free.
This is demonstrably false:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/utilities/ [sjgames.com]
It can't be "free" in the "libre" sense, no. But from the way you state it ("have to pay") it's very clear that you are talking about "free as in beer", and the very links on SJGames' own site prove that you're incorrect about what they'll let you do.
-Rob
Re:Waaahhh... (Score:1)
That depends on what 'it' is. The GURPS system isn't protected AFAIK; just the way that it is described in SJG's books. Use the system without the existing writeups and you'd be ok. Personally, I've considered doing some stuff along those lines myself, as I prefer GURPS to D&D.
Re:Waaahhh... (Score:2)
Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:5, Insightful)
Giving away code is one thing but giving away someone else copyright is another. I imagine if they are going to be distributing stuff that is in the 3rd edition rules they had to make some sort of deal with WotC to do so. WotC is going to want some cash out of the deal so naturally Codemonkey is going to have to charge for this.
Before people light the tourches and storm the castle lets remember WotC past. They have been a lot better company than TSR ever was with IP stuff. The cost of the downloads might be reasonable. Its no differet than when they released the code to the Quake engine but still required you to buy the data paks to run it on Linux.
With WotC past efforts I'm willing to give them more than the doubt before I tar and feather anyone.
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:3, Interesting)
Uh, that's a big no, actually. Game rules are not copyrightable. They can be patented, but as far as D&D goes, the time for that passed long ago. Any copyright that exists is only on the specific way the rules were written. Rewrite the book yourself, using different wording but preserving the same meaning, and you'd be ok. Certain terms may be trademarked, but they're easy enough to discover and work around.
This is why the d20 license thing has been absolutely mystifying me. The only thing in it that is in the least bit worthwhile is the ability to _say_ that it's a d20 system and use that mark... but so what? You can do that for free, as fair use (n.b. trademark fair use is NOT the same thing at all as copyright fair use) permits comparisons between actual branded products, as opposed to with a thinly disguised 'Brand X.'
So what precisely is the hold up?
(I will agree that anyone is less litigious than TSR was, but litigiousness doesn't equal being right; check out the frontispiece in the first "Phil and Dixie" book for a good joke along these lines.)
As somewhat of an industry insider... (Score:1)
The D20 Open Gaming License basically gives you the right to call something D20 and use D20 rules and some IP, as long as you don't re-pring or suppant other IP. It's basically a branding thing. Here, you can have some of our branding which is just about the best in the industry, and in exchange, you have to play nice with our rules.
In conclusion, yes you can work around the OGL and just go ahead and print some rules and stuff, but there's not much benefit to you since you might as well just go OGL, or if you need more licence it from Wizards, it'll save you tiptoeing through a legal minefield and maybe getting sued (even if you do a real good job of avoiding infringment, you could get sued anyway, and you might even lose, since you ripped of something they made, and judges, unlike RMS, do believe in intellectual property...)
Re:As somewhat of an industry insider... (Score:2)
And WotC will lose that suit, if you're merely claiming that your rules are compatable with D20. You _can_ use other people's trademarks for comparison purposes you know. Just as a store that carries such materials can put up a sign that indicates that they sell them, since it's a mere nominative use of the mark.
class names are probably included here, as are any parts of the world, basically the whole Monster Manual, because while orcs and so forth are pretty much public domain, the WotC/TSR implementations are copyrighted, and most of the stuff in the MM is copyrighted in its own right
Class names aren't copyrightable. And a trademark on 'Thief' or 'Ranger' would be pretty ridiculous. And at any rate, a quick check of the trademark database at the USPTO indicates that they have not been trademarking class names.
The game world -- sure, that's copyrighted. But if you're creating your own world -- or even just a small bit of territory that a GM can insert into an 'official' world, you'd be fine. I never said that a developer could copy everything; just that the d20 license doesn't seem to amount to much.
Monsters are an interesting issue. Again, if you're making up a world, I'm not terribly worried about it. There's nothing wrong with there being a different species of monster, and of course, the MM would still be perfectly compatable. But yeah, monster _stats_ and _descriptions_ are probably protectable insofar as they are original. (a troll that lurks under bridges would not be -- trolls did that before D&D came along) Monster names aren't protectable, save as trademarks, and there appears not to have been any attempt to do anything along those lines.
it'll save you tiptoeing through a legal minefield and maybe getting sued (even if you do a real good job of avoiding infringment, you could get sued anyway, and you might even lose, since you ripped of something they made, and judges, unlike RMS, do believe in intellectual property...)
Yeah, but judges also know the law better than most game developers I've encountered. You have to remember, that even today, there are still limits to this 'IP' thing.
As for why to act outside of licensure, well, to the daring go the spoils.
Re:As somewhat of an industry insider... (Score:2)
But you can't put the D20 logo on the front cover without going OGL. Without the logo your new and unknown product will be placed in the exotiques shelf in the back of the store, with the logo your place is in the front shelfs with other D20/OGL products. With the logo you also get noticed and reviewed by (mostly Web-based) publications.
Want to make a RPG product, eh? To go with D20/OGL or not to go? Talk about no-brainer.
--Flam
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:2)
And WotC (back in the old, old pre-MtG days) got sued by Palladium for including rules on using Primal Order (their rules for gods) with Rifts in the book. I heard it almost drove them out of buisness. If you can afford to spend hours in court arguing copyright and trademark law, go for it.
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:2)
Actually, going back to 2000, the WOTC VP in charge of D&D was threatening that WOTC could claim ownership to any fan created material, stating that all work based on the D&D rules was a derivative work. Several of us argued that rules aren't copyrightable and that if we created our own settings and material using the rules, only using D&D terms as reference, we are in the clear. Dancy refused to budge, going on and on how they could sue and claim copyright over your entire work (more FUD, unless it was a wholesale ripoff, copyright would end up being shared with the new work being owned by the author and the derivative work being owned by WOTC). Basically, it would be like K&R claiming that any C program is derivative and owned by them since they made the rules.
In response, I pulled my entire campaign (2nd Ed, PO with some 1st Ed sprinkled in) setting that I created off the net. I know Dancy is full of crap but should they steal my material or sue me for it, I would have the funds of Hasbro (a company which has shown it will sue regardless of whether the claim is legit) vs my own ability to defend myself since I can't afford a lawyer. Dancy has since left WOTC but WOTC has refused to recant anything that he's said... until such time, my material (several hundred pages) will remain offline. I get a bad taste in my mouth these days any time I even pick up one of my D&D books.
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:1)
No, we don't have blocking copyrights in the US. Certainly I don't like how we handle derivatives though, so some reform is needed here. But if you have a work that is derivative, the derivative parts aren't yours -- and since they're likely inseperable from what you did do, you lose the entire thing.
OTOH, yeah, they were making a frivolous claim. To such an extent really that if they actually did sue, you'd have a chance at getting it thrown out of court immediately. (of course, very rarely a frivolous claim can work out -- recalling my prof arguing 'copyright misappropriation,' not infringement, and not an actual cause of action; she was representing the good guy, however)
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:2)
Now... If I decide to rip out the Marvel material and they encounter a woman that can cook with her breath and freeze with her eyes, I'm entirely in the clear. Copyright only covers the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. Taking the fact that the D&D rules are simply ideas, I should be able to create new material based on those rules as long as I don't lift the expression of the rules. Further, reference is always legal, so if I include references to generic D&D monsters (sans stats, which are arguably copyrightable), I should still be in the clear.
I haven't used any setting material from them (only setting book I actually own is the manual of the planes) nor any specific, developed characters. Save reference to concepts like THAC0, my work is generic enough that it can be used for any other game system. However, until WOTC specifically disclaims any ownership over works like mine (I don't need to have them disclaim mine specifically), my work will remain private because I can't afford a lawsuit.
A couple people, including Peter Seebach [slashdot.org] did extensive case research on this durin our discussions in rec.games.frp.dnd but Dancy still refused to budge
Of course, IANAL and neither are they...
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:1)
Actually, I'd imagine that AOL-Time-Warner, which owns DC would be making that claim.
I haven't used any setting material from them (only setting book I actually own is the manual of the planes) nor any specific, developed characters. Save reference to concepts like THAC0, my work is generic enough that it can be used for any other game system.
Then you're likely pretty good to go.
However, until WOTC specifically disclaims any ownership over works like mine (I don't need to have them disclaim mine specifically), my work will remain private because I can't afford a lawsuit.
Have you considered either getting together a legal fund for a test case (in which case the litigant needs to be absolutely impeccable), or talking with an IP attorney to see if it could be handled pro bono? The issue is an important one to a lot of people -- to let them chill an entire industry for lack of an absolutely clear precedent is a big PITA. I'm sure there's got to be at least one sympathetic, role-playing lawyer out there. IANAL... yet. Got about a year and a half until I take the bar though, so there will be at least one lawyer out there soon, knock on wood.
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:2)
Re:Doesn't Suprise Me (Score:1)
Fortunately SJG isn't as litigious as TSR et al, though Steve can be annoying to be sure.
At any rate, I'd hope that at some point soon the gaming community will rally together to keep the publishers in their place, as it were.
Nothing like being double #%@! (Score:1)
Re:Nothing like being double #%@! (Score:1)
Re:Nothing like being double #%@! (Score:1)
Re:Nothing like being double #%@! (Score:1)
A little offtopic... (Score:5, Informative)
And if you want to be "current", you're going to have to buy all the 3E books again. WotC is releasing what they call 3.5E -- updates to the three core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, and MM). Going forward, only the 3.5E system will be supported.
There is no trade-in or rebate offer for owners of the previous edition. So you're going to have to pay for 3E "twice" either way.
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:2)
Then don't buy them. I you don't think there is nothing wrong with the current rules then skip the update. If you think the new changes are worth the $$$ feel happy to shell out for them.
I for one will probably skip the updated rules but then again I'm still playing second edition and sometimes first edition.
Same here. I still use the original AD&D (Score:2)
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:5, Informative)
Apart from fancy binding, pretty pictures, and flavor text that you can get from 3E, what are the 3.5E books gonna have that isn't here?
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think people should be used to this by now. It's called, economics. No one wants to buy back tangibles that they sold you. It's your fault you bought them.. and it's your fault if you buy the newest ones.
Besides, is the game THAT much more fun between 3.0 and 3.5? Isn't your GM supposed to make adjustments to the games when he see's fit? Hell, i've seen really random spells given out when there's a plot difficulty. I.e. "Damn, no one knows how to talk to this creature, and our guy who is multilingual is in jail." "Ok, I'm giving you a spell just so that you can understand any one language you choose, but you can only do that language. No dual tounges while you use it. But when you go back to your old language, you retain the knowledge of what you talked about. Level 5, costs xxx mp."
And also, if you really need those books, get everyone in your group to pitch in and buy the latest ones.
Cripes..
No it is called planed obsolecence (Score:1, Troll)
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:2)
Did you know that if you bought a car, you can't drive it on public roads without getting a silly little plastic card?!? Now that we've both compared apples to oranges...
3E has been out for three years. Either their playtesting was inadequate, and/or WotC is trying to gouge the customers. Even T$R, at their moneygrubbing worst, didn't release a major rules revision for six years after 2nd Edition came out.
If you're happy about buying the new books, I have some software to sell^H^H^H^Hlicense to you...
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:2)
But it's NOT apples and oranges. Same thing happens with PDA's, microwaves, clothing. You buy it once, if you are lucky, you can sell it to someone else used, otherwise you give it away for free. And if you want the new one, there's nothing you can do.
So what if 3e is out for 10 years. They created a tool, they are giving away for free, they just want you to buy the data. It's not like you can't input the data yourself, or do it on paper. It's a convenience you are paying for. If you don't like it, don't buy it. End of story.
It's called maintence. You pay for it in a lot of things, especially when you "upgrade". Oracle does it with their servers. You buy the software and support (patches plus dudes on the phone). You do it when you add host entries to your dns (if you pay for dns). It takes 2 seconds for someone to update it, but you are paying for the convenience of someone else maintaining it with whatever they charge you.
And hey, if you did have a copy of word 6 to sell, i'd buy it since no one else sells it, and it's the last version of word that i actually liked. Hell, you kept it around for me (unintentially). If the price is right, ($20?), I'd sure as hell buy it.
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:3, Insightful)
However: The 3ed rules seem like they "just" came out, and there's lots of applications that will still use them. Neverwinter Nights, for example, prided it's self on using 3ed. Will we now also have to download or buy the next pack for NWN so that we feel up to snuff?
But, whatever, people that deal with WOTC are used to it. Think Magic Cards - every 4 months, release a whole new set, and then after two new set releases, you can't use any older cards in Type II tournaments.
Same Deal... you can still use the older stuff, just not in the "cool, new" tournament situations.
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:1)
http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd
So if you don't want to pay another $50-$90 (and I don't), you can download them to your laptop or print them yourself. I imagine some enterprising soul will compile a list of only the *changes*, too, which you will be able to print out and use if you want.
The 3.5 revision is not supposed to be a cosmetic revision as was the reprinting (you know, with the black border...) of the 2nd edition books. These books will have more content--320 pages each as opposed to 220-280 for the current ones. Also expected are a number of balancing and flavor changes and added material from some of the expansion books. Although not prefect, 3rd Edition was truly well playtested, and I have high expectations for 3.5.
Back on topic: What _would_ be nice is if WotC set up a "send us the proof of purchase for the book and we'll email you the data files" program. Because I don't expect they expect PCGen to be a huge revenue stream anyway, if enough people were to email them stating the case politely, they might well accept.
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:2, Interesting)
Let's assume they did this. Let's also assume that they don't want the hassle of opening all those envelopes and looking at proof of purchase labels. (All that does cost some kind of labor in-house, or paying a rebate-type service company to do it for you.) So they charge you a $2 handling fee.
Is that any different than the small fee they are going to charge for the data files?
Look at it this way, it's just a convenience fee.
IANAL but it seems obvious to me that you can certainly make up your own datafiles from the books and use them for your own personal use.
If you can't or don't want to be bothered, you can always pony up the couple of bucks (they claim from 1 to 5 USD in the article) and pay to download the file.
Re:A little offtopic... (Score:2, Funny)
Brilliant Q&A (Score:5, Informative)
Look at it here [wizards.com]
Oh give me a break (Score:2, Insightful)
I played AD&D before the software. Does the software do anything that you can't do on paper with your imagination and the books?
This isn't bait a bait and switch. hell, slashdot does this too. First, all of the articles were user generated, now some of them are ads.
Nothing has been taken away that you can't have already. It's not like, someone wrote something, got everyone completely dependent on it without viable alternatives, and then said, "Give me more money, or you are screwed." BSA and operating systems for instance.
Or the RIAA,we own the product, we can do whatever we wish within our own personal confines. Turning my cd into mp3, ogg, making 30,000 copies, cracking any code and decorating my walls with them isn't illegal. It's the redistribution for no cost that is illegal.
Damned whiners.
Re:Oh give me a break (Score:1)
Huh? Do you have any evidence of this, or it an opinion?
Re:Oh give me a break (Score:2)
Re:Oh give me a break (Score:2)
I remember that entry. I believe that it was published on an April 1st, if that helps you find it. Of course, now you don't need to, right?
Re:Oh give me a break (Score:1)
What if that redistribution is to someone who already has the CD? These data files are nearly useless without the books. Getting mad about redistribution (those many moons ago) just makes no sense... no one was making a penny of them or cheating them out of a penny.
Re:Oh give me a break (Score:2)
Hey, I know the basic rules, not the "well.. in that case" ones.
-s
Free Gaming Systems (Score:1)
I'm probably stating the obvious here, but now would be a great time for someone to post links to 100% free gaming systems!
-Teckla
Re:Free Gaming Systems (Score:1)
Here is a link to the web site:
Grey Lotus [greylotus.org]
Kind Regards
Re:Free Gaming Systems (Score:2)
Here's a list of about 350 freely available rpg systems: http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/full
And another list: http://www.homebrew.net/games/
One more: http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Free_Systems/
still using 2.72 (Score:2)
Re:still using 2.72 (Score:1)
Of course, wotc doesn't care about anything pre V3.0 you may have purchased, that was T$R then. Their primary interest, I'd imagine, is seeing some gain on their investment.
Annoying, but necissary (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, I would really like PCGen to stop paying full attention to just wizards. Yes, it's D&D, d20 is the 3E system and D&D is a very important game. But I think this is a VERY good opportunity to help some excellent companies (or at least one) who are REALLY in bad shape, and have been for a long time. I'm refering, of course, to Alderac Entertainment Group [alderac.com], publishers of two excellent games (L5R CCG and RPG) who started after wizards and really never stood a chance in hell of unseating them, and have been sitting around getting financially beaten up because no one will give their product a second look. It would be really, really nice if PCGen would branch out and try to include a game like L5R to help a great company (who at the moment have to pay their writers something like 2 cents per word. Well, at least the one I know) and help those of us who play either Oriental Adventures or Rokugan d20 in a conventional or L5R setting. For an extra few bucks, I think that would be a good deal for everyone involved.
4 times. (Score:1)
Once for the PCGen files to go with those rules.
Once for the new core books, each at $29.95, with the new rules coming out in six months. Dungeon and Dragons 3.5 as they are calling.
And again for the new PCGen files to go with the new books.
If you have the books... (Score:3, Informative)
A useful open source "product" would be a data entry program designed to make the creation and editing of these databases easy.
Sure, it's more work, but you shouldn't have any copyright issues unless you distribute the data you entered.
Re:If you have the books... (Score:1, Informative)
Why not let users enter their own datafiles? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not let users enter their own datafiles? (Score:2, Informative)
Besides, the price for the datafiles has been quoted as being between 1 and 5 dollars. Big deal.
What difference does it really make? (Score:1)
WotC data files.. (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, my god how tunes change. I remember when TSR was trying to say they had a patent and/or copyright to the game mechanics and probability tables in alt.rec.adnd.utils (? been too long) The community slammed them hard, and much like slashdot's armchair lawyer'ing - the general consensus was they could get bent on the data charts. The copy for a fireball description was protected by copyright, but a method for calculating damage by rolling 1d6 for each level of the mage? No way! Well, with current one-click patent rulings, I'm sure it is...
If people play, they will buy the books. I've got one of the TSR 'Core Rules' CD - A character generator and all the core books in RTF and a few other formats. Even the cheapest of the bastards went off and purchased a PHB (or stole mine), rather printing the file and make a bootleg copy . I still prefer paper for gaming, but the RTF's were handy for coding.
The in-game helper software was not created or usable. Paper and dice diminished. I watched all the folks who had played AD&D get sucked in by Magic, then Everquest rather than buy the later 2nd Edition or 3rd Edition books. I'm sure this move will bolster homegrown efforts to embrace the OGL and D20 licenses and improve the product. The technical term for this is "Pissing in the wind"...
Good Thing I'm still using PCGEN 2.73... (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually, while I'm on a rant - doesn't it piss anyone else off that WOTC has done some underhanded things - the Monster Manual for example. They bragged about how many monsters there are in there. Yeah - if you subtract all of the variations (Large, Huge, Small, Tiny, Medium) of the same monster and subtract all of the templates, you've probably got maybe 50 monsters in the book. MM2 is no better. How about their "generosity" of giving away converted spells, monsters, etc. from 1st/2nd edition only if you also buy Dragon or Dungeon Magazine or an RPGA Polyhedron and Living Greyhawk Subcription. Their "new" Fiend Folio looks like another stinker.
I recently bought Tome of Horrors (by Sean? Green) and have been extremely happy with it - it is well worth the $30 for a book containing over 400 monsters (292 of them being conversions from 1st edition MM1, MM2, and FF). Sure it has templates - *AS AN APPENDIX* - not as a part of the main 400+ monsters.
I would recommend that everyone who plays 3rd edition try out some of the 3rd party d20 products as they are as good as, if not better than, the WOTC content. With the current trend WOTC is taking, it makes me want to grab my copy of "D&D Cyclopedia" (a compilation of all the boxed sets for Original D&D) off of my bookshelf and start playing that again - but my players are firmly entrenched in 3rd edition - heck - one of my players *only* wants to play 3rd edition D&D, and only with the "typical pseudo-Western European fantasy" type of scenarios (i.e. keep the campaign in Waterdeep and surroundings.) God forbid that I have them playing in Moonshae Isles (Celtic with Nordic influences) and plan on throwing them in Kara-Tur or Maztica...
Here's a GPL version (Score:2)
print 3*rand(6);
}
THEN PUT IT IN YOURSELF! (Score:3, Insightful)
If you buy "the data" (which you didn't--you bought a copy of the data which includes the right to make reasonable and necessary copies for personal use), you can go ahead and put it in yourself, or pay someone else to do it for you--or pay the original company for a second copy of the data.
Or you can do what I do, and not use Wizards of the Coast material that's not OGL'd or in the SRD. Any gamer on
Twice bought, Twice charged (Score:1, Interesting)
God forbid... (-1: Dissenting Opinion) (Score:4)
The PCGen folks work out a deal with Wizards to so that they can license material that's not covered by the Open Gaming License, and you're complaining about it.
If you feel that strongly about not paying twice, no one is making you buy it. Additionally, you're totally free to create and distribute Open Gaming Content yourself. God forbid someone try and make a little money for their work.
"charge users twice" (Score:2)
I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.
Um, I think you're missing a point, Taco. With all the data files, many gamers can get away with not having the Player's Handbook at all. Character creation and updating is the most book-necessary part of the game.
I've got no problem with WotC on this front.
-Grant
Re:"charge users twice" (Score:1)
You must be joking. You can't do squat with the character sheet/info printed by PCGen without the books or the SRD (the d20 ref doc). If you add anything outside the core rules to your character, it's pretty much useless. Descriptions of things are not included in these data files.
Re:"charge users twice" (Score:1)
Bloody good news (Score:2, Insightful)
As things stand, for the price of a couple of pints, I'm going to be able to download datafiles for PCGen (which is a bloody fine piece of work in itself) that will allow me to bash out characters and monsters that
a) Can use all of the published features from the rules and addons
b) Stand a hope in hell of actually being numerically correct
Think people - when have we ever been able to do this before for the DnD world? Never.
For the people who are whinging about WotC releasing new editions to keep money coming in - if you don't want them, don't buy them. If you do, get 'yer hand in 'yer pocket and pay for them. And if I come across anyone ripping off the datafiles once they go on sale, they'll get a vorpal enema from me!
One happy DM!
The Rise and Fall of TSR (Score:3, Informative)
D&D used to be published by a company called TSR (originally Tactical Simulation Rules, then the acronym was dropped). While the company was under the control of Gary Gygax, all was good; but when Gygax left, he was replaced by typical business types. They decided that by publishing new books, they could make more money from their existing players; so, they published an "advanced" version, AD&D, which would live alongside D&D. Some time after that, they published a 2nd edition AD&D and discontinued both D&D and AD&D. The new editions were improvements, but people weren't happy with re-purchasing and re-learning the same things repeatedly.
Somewhere along the line, someone at TSR found out about the World Wide Web, and they weren't happy with what they found: TSR's copyrighted material, even complete texts, on personal web pages. They decided to crack down, but they came for not only infringing sites, but also legitimate fan sites. They made a public statement explaining what fan sites could and couldn't use. They made two grave mistakes; first, they tried to claim ownership over the term "hit points", by then already used universally in nearly every RPG around, and proposed a lousy substitute. Second, they said that fan sites could use monsters which come from mythology (their example: a Hydra), but not ones which are creations of TSR (Drow elves). Problem was, an edition of Webster's Unabridged Dictionary published several years before D&D had an entry under "drow", which described TSR's drow elves perfectly.
At the same time, TSR was milking the market for all it was worth. They published "2.5th Ed." of AD&D, which was 2nd Ed. in a slightly different presentation (more pictures), and they published dozens and dozens of unnecessary, low-quality, repetitive and inconsistent rulebooks. In short, they made a mess of 2nd edition AD&D, and earned themselves a dismal reputation as "T$R". The backlash killed them, and TSR was bought out by Wizards of the Coast.
Third edition was a symbolic fresh start; it discarded the mess of rulebooks created in 2nd edition, simplified things, and used the D20 license to show that, unlike TSR, WotC was committed to openness. Does a 3.5th edition and stopping one copyright infringement mean that WotC is reverting into TSR? Of course not; but it's a step in that direction, and could become the start of something more.
Re:The Rise and Fall of TSR (Score:2)
I can't actually find much information, but it seems that there are no plans to reprint any of their other books for 3rd. Edition, though I might be wrong.
Second, WOTC claims that the new products released after the 3.5 core rule books come out will be "backwards compatible," so to speak, with the original core rule books. So it will not be 100% necessary to rebuy the core rule books if you don't really want to (or prefer the old ones).
I personally do NOT like the idea of calling it "3.5" though. They should have called it "Revision 1" or something. Even though WOTC swears that the "3.5" does not mean they are half way to 4th. Edition, it really does bring up the suspicion that WOTC will release 4th. Edition before it really is necessary.
Personally, I'm giving WOTC the benefit of the doubt right now. Even though there are some "old-school" players who hate 3rd. Edition, I find the newer rules much better (as well as much easier to teach someone) than 2nd. Edition was. I think WOTC really has done a fairly nice job with D&D. TSR produced a mess towards the end, and WOTC cleaned it up.
Re:The Rise and Fall of TSR (Score:2, Informative)
This isn't correct at all. Gary Gygax oversaw the creation of AD&D. Prior to AD&D, D&D was a more free wielding system with lots of folks creating and adding stuff and no one really worrying all that much about Intellectual Property. If you were gaming at the time (I take it you were not) you would have remembered that Gygax increasingly started to assert IP rights insisting that the only official AD&D products were written by him and that the reader shouldn't be fooled by knock-offs.
While things certainly did take a turn for the worse in a number of ways after Gygax left, the seeds you speak of were sown by Gygax and company.
I don't know why so many folks who were not gaming through the late 70s and 80s like to speak like experts on something they are quite clueless about.
At the same time, TSR was milking the market for all it was worth. They published "2.5th Ed." of AD&D, which was 2nd Ed. in a slightly different presentation (more pictures), and they published dozens and dozens of unnecessary, low-quality, repetitive and inconsistent rulebooks. In short, they made a mess of 2nd edition AD&D, and earned themselves a dismal reputation as "T$R". The backlash killed them, and TSR was bought out by Wizards of the Coast.
This statement is just an opinion and not really fact. Yes, TSR did repackage the rulebooks for 2nd edition without changing the content, but the improvements to the graphics were eye catching and I know our gaming group bought several copies of the new set - partly so we could all read from the same page if need be, but also because the books were more pleasing to read. But, no one had to buy the new printings; the old books still worked just fine. Complaining about that is like complaining about a new printing of a book with some new artwork on the cover and cosmetic changes to layout. Who cares? No one is forced to buy it.
Now TSR did publish something that was a real version 2.5. That would be the Combat & Tactics, Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic books. Those were not a cosmetic change at all and radically changed how the game was played. In many ways third edition reminds me of these rules. Third edition sometimes feels like a simpler and better put together version of what they were starting to tinker with in S&P and C&T.
There's no way you could say that these rules were published just to milk the gaming world. TSR was genuinely starting to move away from 1st and 2nd edition AD&D (which were practically interchangeable for the most part). It was fun to be part of that experiment.
What I think killed TSR (and Game Designers Workshop and others) was Magic the Gathering and similar games. The old RPG companies weren't quick enough to adjust to the changing demographics of gaming and were blind sided.
The latter years of TSR were a sort of rennaisance on the creative side with a number of innovative (for TSR) campaign settings and supplements. We haven't seen anything approaching that yet for 3E.
I'll certainly give you that the d20 and OGL concept are great, and that the 3E mechanism is better than the older AD&D mechanism, but I'm still waiting for the cool settings like Planescape or Dark Sun. Seems that under WoTC the settings have reverted back to quasi-European munchkinism.
My My My... Busy aren't we all? (Score:3, Informative)
Some Info to Remove Speculation (Score:2, Informative)
* When 3.5 comes out, Wizards will release all the changes as a PDF file (liek they currently do with the Errata and FAQ). It will be a free download form the Wizards website, so you will not have to pay for the changes if you don't want to.
* PcGen ahs always allowed users to enter their own datafiles - especially easier now with allt he list editors in the latest releases. Thus, you don't have to buy the Wizards IP if you own the books, you can just enter the information yourself. The supporting Documentation inside PCGen is very helpful in this regard.
* The stuff Code Monkey Publishing will be charging for will only be for the Wizards IP. This means that things left out fot he SRD will be put back in (Mordenkeinen's, Tasha's, Illithid/MindFlayer, etc etc). Not only that, but you'll get full descriptions of skills, spells, feats, etc. Or you could do your own work and flesh out the SRD files that come with PCGen using the list editors.
* Code Monkey Publishing has axcquired the rights to fix and support Wizard's own Character Generator E-Tools, which, by many reports, is severely broken and has not been fixed sice it was released.
* Be aware that E-Tools only runs on Windows (as far as I know, unless you use a Windows Emulator on othe rplatforms), whislt PCGen, running in Java, runs on many platforms. So to my mind, this is a bonus, not hindrance to PCGen.
Well, that's all I have to say.
Ignore me, flame me, or whatever, but these are the facts, as they stand.
Kenosti.
Re:Some Info to Remove Speculation (Score:1)
The creators of PCgen are still commited to making sure PCgen is the best all-round d20 character manager in existence.
As well as the work on E-tools, they are stil working on PCgen, as well as working on creating and bringing out their own published material.
Have you been to http://www.codemonkey.org and seen their press releases and looked at their repsosnes on the bulletin board?
Have you looked at the PCGen Yahoo Group and seen the posts made by the creators of PCGen there?
Know the facts before you post speculations.
Kenosti.
Re:Some Info to Remove Speculation (Score:1)
Should be http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com
My apologies.
Kenosti.
D20? Why bother? (Score:1)
better ways to do a RPG than d20, ways that make the game simpler, more intuitive, and more realistic. Take, for example, the IGS system. These guys are a tiny company that no-one has heard of, but they have written a game system that beats d20 hands down, is fun and fast to play, and is as universal as GURPS without being as broken at the extremes. Check it out at http://www.igsgames.com/ - I dare you.