Genderplay in Videogames 416
thenovacrisis writes "Game Girl Advance has an interesting article about the various female characters in videogames. She talks about the important balance between alienation and identification, the Aesthetics of Sexy Girls, and various MMORPGs. An interesting read for all." A lot of games are compared, and issues raised. Good food for thought for character design.
One Word (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:One Word (Score:2, Funny)
Re:One Word (Score:2)
yea, and all that anime is viewed by people who are purely artistic minded, too.
(suppressing laughter)
Re:One Word (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One Word (Score:4, Funny)
Damn
Gender Play (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, we need more gender play.
Re:Gender Play (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Gender Play (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Gender Play (Score:5, Insightful)
The problems with the treatment of women in the game industry aren't new - the work environment for women at Atari was said to be worse than most auto body shops. If you've ever been to E3, it's humiliating - humiliating for me as a man, who doesn't need to have my libido pandered to in order to get me interested in a game (and who generally doesn't expect his libido to inform most of his other activities except, you know, sex.) To see all those bored models dressed in skimpy costumes is just a way of saying "we're an industry and culture completely dominated by the fantasies of frustrated adolescent boys! Don't take us seriously! And girls, just stand there so we can look at you!" It's a horrible, depressing message. It's no wonder that women don't go into the gaming-room, the entire gaming culture has essentially been hostile (and, yes, being the object of constant sexual and romantic attention is hostile, in its way) to women from the get-go.
I have nothing against a little pandering in its sector. If you go to a video store, there's an adult section. But it's not like the entire display rack is filled with bikini models. Pandering to sex drives should be a niche market, not a dominant theme.
Re:Gender Play (Score:3, Interesting)
Face it, the minute the marketroids in this country decided that sex sells, it was all over. Even Baywatch, with zero content, sells T&A worldwide and is still really popular.
There will always be those who grab something for the cover and those who grab something for the content. Same goes for books or anything el
Re:no kidding (Score:5, Insightful)
"Pandering to sex drives" is a dominant theme in everything in western culture. Its perhaps done in a slightly 'classier' fashion than the game industry in most other cases, but only marginally so, and in fact the more I think about it, not at all. Just look around. Look at a typical magazine section in a store. Almost all of the womens' magazines (e.g. Cosmo, Femina etc) feature sexy, photoshopped women wearing almost nothing. And so do almost all of the (adult) mens magazines (FHM, GQ) etc. So do the magazines for teenage girls. So do the magazines for bikers. So do the porn mags (of course). So do the photography magazines. So do the frikkin comics! Look at television and movies - most of the shows are full of sexy women, and many of the shows don't even try to pretend that they're not just displaying sexy women to attract viewers. Yes, go into a video store and really take a look, you will find that MANY of the non-adult shows are flaunting beautiful women (and NOT just the obvious movies like Blue Crush). Look at the music industry, almost all our female stars are damn sexy. Look at their music videos, they all have to dance around wearing practically nothing, grabbing and touching their breasts and genitals and writhing sexily. Even trade shows in other industries (e.g. mining/defence) have their "booth babes" - some shows may do it slightly classier than others, but a booth babe is a booth babe. No matter how classy she is dressed, you know she is only there for one reason (and its not for her knowledge about the mining or defence industries).
Everybody does this, EVERYWHERE in society, and nobody sees it as out of the ordinary, having long discussions about it on sites like /. In fact, the field of computer games stands out as being quite singular in the fact that people do see it as something unusual (and in some cases see it "as a problem", like this website).
People still seem somehow awed by the idea of sexy women in computer games. Get over it, the whole of western culture is fascinated by boobies. To make a fuss over the fact that this would apply to computer games too just seems prudish (and thus a bit immature) to me. Think about this, does society consider mags like GQ "immature"? No? Then why are tits in computer games considered "immature"?
Re:Gender Play (Score:3, Insightful)
Tomb Raider had what was possibly a new Samus character, strong and independant. EA dumped all of that and turned her into a sex symbol. It was a major disappointement for these girls who wanted someone strong to identify with, not another Barbie clone.
I think they have a point. People like their character to have personality. It's like the Tomb Raider marketing department was run by 15 year
Re:Gender Play (Score:5, Funny)
Gotta give a guy credit for posting as a perv (like the rest of us) and NOT doing it as AC.
Re:Gender Play (Score:2, Funny)
A precious little girl walks into a pet shop and asks, in the sweetest little lisp, "Do you keep widdle wabbits?"
The shopkeeper gets down on his knees, so that he's on her level, and asks, "Do you want a widdle white wabby or a thoft and fuwwy bwack wabby, or maybe one like that cute widdle bwown wabby over there?"
She puts her hands on her knees, leans forward, and says in a quiet voice, "I don't fink my pet python weally gives a thit."
Re:Adventure (Score:4, Funny)
> GRAB PENIS
I don't know what that is.
Guess you're right!
What sex do you play as? (Score:5, Interesting)
And yes I am male.
The number 1 reason I do this is because I would rather be staring at a sexy gal while I waste my life on these games then a male character.
Besides isn't the point of RPG's to pretend to be something you are not?
Re:What sex do you play as? (Score:2)
I like to play RPG's to act how I would act (Score:2)
In games like diablo, I pick a character that matches my physical disposition, mental state, and so on. I guess I don't have much to be ashamed of or I am very confident in myself if I want to portray myself as best as possible. If I could put my face on UT2003's characters, I probably would.
Re:What sex do you play as? (Score:2)
Its rumoured that at LinuxExpo in sanfransico that Hemos and CmdTaco did this on a big screen and it was funny as hell. I missed it. But I got a look at the hot red BSD chick in leather thats posted here quite alot at LinuxExpo 2000 in New York. I had to try so hard no to get a woody in public. Dam
Yeah (Score:4, Funny)
That game is shit, though, I got bored of it after a day.
Tim
Re:What sex do you play as? (Score:5, Insightful)
Having played both genders in Everquest, I have not found this to be true in the slightest. One of my main characters was a female cleric, which I role-played as the aloof, matronly high elf that seemed to fit a "priestess of Mother Tunare", and did not reveal my real-life gender to the other players. With that character, I formed many parties and led them into many adventures. Nobody ever questioned that "she" was in charge.
I can't help but think that the easy authority that the woman who wrote the article found when playing male characters had much more to do with how playing the male avitar influenced her attitude and behavior than anything else. She logged in with the expectation "I'm presenting as a male now, so they will respect my opinions more," and the resulting confidence resulted in a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Re:What sex do you play as? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What sex do you play as? (Score:3, Insightful)
My #1 motivation is an asthetic appeal to me.
And asthetics, I would rather be looking at that.
You asked about pink or blue undies. I am gonna pretend that I know where you are going with that remark.
I wear pink and blue striped undies.
For one I think that the idea of 'cyberdating' is, in a word, lame.
Seriously.. seriously lame.
Bottom line on this is that if you are talking to a female character on any MMORPG it is statistcly more likely it is really a guy anyways.
So if
Re:What sex do you play as? (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a great short story by Maureen McHugh [fantasticfiction.co.uk]titled "A Coney Island of the Mind" (the title was taken from Lawrence Ferlinghetti's poem) that riffs on this idea -- it's set in a virtual Coney Island. Can't seem to find the anthology it appeared in...
Equal Opprotunity (Score:5, Funny)
Female characters are great (Score:3, Funny)
The name sounds familiar (Score:5, Funny)
HAHAHA! Mod parent up! (Score:2)
Speaking from experience, (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The name sounds familiar (Score:5, Funny)
Now that's a true gamer.
This is Sexual not Female (Score:5, Interesting)
Let the women stand up, don't degrade them as sexual tools.
A real woman standing up. (Score:5, Insightful)
And personally, I've never heard of Syberia.
The bikini-girl games are the ones that get a lot of press. TLJ, I never would have heard of if a guy at work hadn't had it and offered to let me borrow it.
Here's a novel idea, though.
Women are not sexual tools. They are, however, sexual. Every portrayal of a woman doesn't have to deliberately throw that away in order to be 'serious'. Which seems to have been part of the upshot of the article--it's not inherently evil that these things happen. There just needs to be an awareness that women are people. That even incredibly model-gorgeous women are people.
Okay, granted, I'm not one of them myself. I wear glasses and a size 15. I have hips. I even kinda like my hips. And what the gaming companies may eventually get is that there are women *like* me out there who'd pay through the nose for a character who was strong, deep, and not in the least bit asexual.
The thing about being a woman is that a woman is not somehow gendered but sexless. Trying to insist that we *should* be is no better than saying we should be sexy but mindless.
Re:A real woman standing up. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A real woman standing up. (Score:3, Insightful)
Sex is healthy. Acting like a goddamn frat boy is not. We have more than enough frat boys and misogynistic gaming geeks in the world; we could use a bit more maturity, and perhaps a forced sterilization program for the more obnoxious twits as well.
Making games that actually feature strong female characters without absurdly out
Guys in games. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Guys in games. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Guys in games. (Score:4, Insightful)
King's Quest IV stars a female protagonist, and not a single sexist tone in that game. Unless you count her wearing a purple (no magenta!) dress as a stereotype. (Might be related to the series being written by a woman, inventor of the graphical advernture genre Robera Williams)
Still, Zak got his girl in the end.
Re:Guys in games. (Score:4, Insightful)
Girls should not have to assume they have to live up to unrealistic body expectiations depicted by video games.
They already get plenty of that from Cosmo, Glamore, and all the other magazines geared specifically for girls.
Male idealization (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Male idealization (Score:3, Interesting)
You did know that the ultra-girly characters of Sailor Moon were designed by a Manga house made up entirely of women artists, right?
To say nothing of what you see when you flip through the magazines that most women choose to read.
Re:Guys in games. (Score:3, Funny)
Oooohhhhh we could simulate disabled in first person shooters by randomizing the keyboard every 3 minutes. At exactly the same time you figured out which one was your 'see through walls/auto-aim' key it would randomly switch. That would make you look retarded and play retarded.
Re:Guys in games. (Score:3, Interesting)
I mean, Tombraider was a good game. Even if you replace ms Croft with a stickfigure, the game was actually good and groundbreaking at the time. To streer clear of it just because the press mentioned boobies tells me that this girl just doesn't appreciate games for the sake of games.
And yeah, I've read quite a few of the ar
When (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:When (Score:2)
Thoughtful (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, games are generally a reflection of what the public demands, but have they also conditioned the public to expect sexy vixen heroines?
Another thing I find interesting is the inclusion of playing crossgender. I tend to do this simply because it helps me learn interaction skills on the other end and thereby get a better play experience all around.
The suggestion towards the end "Set up some rules and let the players play with both the gamespace and the genderspace, however they wish. Don't push girls away from games like Tomb Raider just because you're afraid boys won't like to identify with Lara. Don't insert gratuitous sex - or for that matter, violence. Make it *mean* something. Don't bind gender with too many built-in characteristics, but let girls be girls in your game. Allow a lot of different types of female characters, not just thin, pretty, busty ones." is a great one, and something I think might be incorporated into future RPGs and MMORPGs.
Ewww PC (Score:4, Interesting)
Getting things politically correct is all nice and good, but games are meant to be fantasy. For the average person it is a fantasy to be a huge muscle bound superhero or a sexy woman that can domainate.
__
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Re:Ewww PC (Score:3, Interesting)
Empathy (Score:5, Interesting)
Now there really are a large majority of right-handed persons on earth, but the gender balance is 50-50. So when you are designing games that appeal to young males, but seem odd and obviously sexist to young femails, you turn off (or just marginalize) potentially half of your paying audience.
Wait, you say! Games are geared toward males because that is overwhelmingly who play games. Could that be a chicken-and-egg thing, even if true? If so many popular games weren't so obviously geared toward male sensibility and away from female sensibility, perhaps that breakdown of gamer gender demographics wouldn't be so pronounced.
How do tools get built for lefties? Either because left-handed people demand it, or by empathy on the part of right-handed tool builders. 'If I were left-handed, how would this tool work for me? Hmm..not very well. I'd better make an adjustment.' So too with game designers. If you want to capture the other 50% of the market, can you empathize with that other half? Can you think about how they view those images and gameplay strategies?
Interesting article from that perspective. It's good to remember how others think.
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Re:Empathy (Score:3, Interesting)
I think part of the problem is women not being a large demographic in video game markets. It is the same reason us linux users get screwed, you never notice how windows centric the world is until you use something else, basically women in vid games like the Linux demographic isn't commercially viable for large scale production.
I definately agree, no
Re:Empathy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Empathy (Score:2)
Now that's not to say that there aren't women who "think like" men and vice versa...but there are definite (and interesting) ways that men differ from women.
What I don't appreciate is women who sit on the sidelines criticizing the way games get made. Don't like it? Write your own.
just when you thought it was safe.... (Score:2)
What girls want (Score:3, Interesting)
So girls want to play SimCity and The Sims.
Yeah, I can get behind that.
Re:What girls want (Score:2)
Seriously...I find that CTF and its variants are way more fun to play than plain vanilla deathmatches. Strategy, tactics, offense and defense, etc. A lot more fun.
And hey, isn't Counter Strike the most popular game even to this day? That's a game you can't play without coming up with a cooperative strategy. If you don't have the strategy, you get slaughtered. Peri
Ultima Online - Chesapeake (Score:5, Interesting)
Only idiots allow the fact that an avatar is female to sway their behavior. With a signal to noise ratio inherent in a MMORPG, there are alot of idiots doing it and I've had idiots act differently towards my female chars. You can actually bring in quite a bit of loot bank crawling with a female in distress, I've known many who've gotten away with outright scams this way.
Everyone else pretty much ignores female/male, since they know it doesn't matter what the avatar looks like it's the personality and skills behind it. This is probably most of the UO population, especially since there is very little "suspension of disbelief" or "game immersion" when playing within UO except on certain rare occasions.
The Role Players are a subset of the above, they however make a point to play RP in appropriate situations to the gender of the avatar. So even though they may be acting like their judgement or actions is swayed by gender, in reality they are going to roleplay such events as they see fit, and not be coerced into giving away valuable items as the idiots are likely to do.
Jonah Hex aka DogMeat of Oberon Pass [MoO]
Her famous "Sex in Games" article (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Her famous "Sex in Games" article (Score:2, Funny)
Try typing with BOTH hands.
Nintendo has been a pioneer in the field (Score:3, Interesting)
Since then, Nintendo has continued to be a trailblazer for featuring females in prominent roles in games, and that is something I am quite proud of.
Re:Nintendo has been a pioneer in the field (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not about Male or Female, it's not about graphics, it's about GAMEPLAY. Nintendo got this a logn time ago, and I am glad they did.
(And I get to reply to someone who has my dream job. Always a bonus.)
Re:Nintendo has been a pioneer in the field (Score:3, Funny)
Do we really want realism in video games? (Score:3, Insightful)
No.
The funny thing is that one person insulted gaming geeks as not every getting any play.
That is odd because many gamers I know are more social and apt to do things outside of computers like actually dating. Other types of geeks like comic book geeks or programmer geeks etc..etc.. tend to stereotypically have a bit more trouble in this regard. Notice it is all a stereotype and I myself fit into a couple of the above categories and I have a wife, kids and I actually weigh under 250lbs.
Everyone wants the ideal. They want to play the bulked bad ass kicking rear and taking names.
Do you really want to play a short hairy balding character with dark circles under your eyes from lack of sleep?
No, that is the villian you kick the crap out of on the third level of the game.
The weird ones are the ones that play the opposite sex and really get into it and off on it. They worry me.
Am I the only one... (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, I thought I was. Carry on.
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:2)
Any interested ladies fitting the description in the parent post please contact me.
Tension (Score:2)
She is right, this is very important. All female characters clothing needs to be very tense in order to show off the cleavage they have underneath.
C'mon folks. (Score:5, Insightful)
The article isn't claiming that she feels victimized or 'whining' about the portrayal of the female body. It's actually quite good, IF you're capable of turning off your 'the world hates me for being a white, middle-class, male' alarms. Show some dignity and don't have a hissy-fit over a woman commenting on gender in games.
Getting to her final comments I think she has some well formed points, and I agree whole-heartedly:
"I don't want to see a shelf of pink boxes of "girl games". I just want to see better games in general - games which are more thoughtful, more provocative, more interesting, with better character design.
Something you hear over and over again in the research around what girls want out of games are themes like "open-ended" and "less-goal oriented" and "co-operative play". These are also the themes which most adult gamers seem to want, too. Talking with my friends who are game developers and designers, they don't want to see bouncy boobs, necessarily (although there's a place for that, sure); they want evolved gameplay, emergent gameplay - with great characters. Set up some rules and let the players play with both the gamespace and the genderspace, however they wish. Don't push girls away from games like Tomb Raider just because you're afraid boys won't like to identify with Lara. Don't insert gratuitous sex - or for that matter, violence. Make it *mean* something. Don't bind gender with too many built-in characteristics, but let girls be girls in your game. Allow a lot of different types of female characters, not just thin, pretty, busty ones.
The end result isn't just going to appeal to women, it'll appeal to a lot of people across the board who want smart, fun, engaging games."
Anyone who likes games can relate. This isn't femi-nazi rhetoric, so allow yourself to ponder it a bit before being a reactionary.
Re:C'mon folks. (Score:5, Funny)
Let me help you out. First of all, this is slashdot. My guess is 20% of the people actually read the articles. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the time, its because the article has been slashdotted, so they cant get to it. Some people treat not reading the article like a badge of honor.
The funny thing is, more people probably read THIS LINK [gamegirladvance.com] instead, about the game girl vibrator, including image of girl in panties using it.
As much as nerds love reading, they love porn more.
Re:C'mon folks. (Score:3, Interesting)
I would like to see more intelligent games and I think there are more intelligent games out there than DOA, that volleyball game and Tomb Raider, and I think that men and women alike know where to find those games.
Re:C'mon folks. (Score:5, Interesting)
To expand, it seemed that the writer was expressing something many of us have expressed: We want gaming environments (virtual surroundings and people) to respond to us in a realistic fashion. For example, if I'm playing an RPG as an exceedingly beautiful female elf and engage a male halfling NPC in conversation, the halfling could be expected to stutter and fawn a bit, and be willing to provide just about anything I want. If I engage that same NPC as a human male in tattered clothes, that halfling should respond more negatively and require a bit more "convincing."
Nowhere in that article did I get the impression that she was calling for more realistic female character models, nor did she seem to be complaining about the types of games being released - she even seemed gleeful that while playing Arcanum her character had to sleep with someone to get what she needed.
I found the article to be a breath of fresh air in terms of the "female gamer perspective" (which all too often can be dominated by the more militant feminist viewpoints) and I'll certainly be checking back to read some more. I enjoy reading the opinions of smart gamers, and she's certainly one of those.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I really need to try again to get Hitomi to wear that Venus swimsuit.
Re:C'mon folks. (Score:4, Insightful)
And I know you're going to say "Oh, but that was a joke". However, it struck few people as being a joke and in spite of the fact that a lot of people have complained about it in the comments, she still hasn't mentioned it in the two or three responses that she's made there. I respected and agreed with most of the article after that, despite the fact that she didn't mention the positive roles that women have had in video games in recent years and stuck to a sort of "the sky is falling" argument, but I can see where the people that criticize her are coming from when the beginning of her article has that bit in it.
Afterthought: I just searched the article again and found the part where she mentions the "joke":
good point, xocet... i meant the "laughably phallic" to be more of a joke than a serious criticism. i think though that other people have written about certain alienating aspects of the interfaces in videogames (Poole mentions it briefly in Trigger Happy).
So in other words, it was a joke... but it wasn't. Depends on how stupid/offensive you thought it was, I guess? And what about the ridiculous comments about the Xbox's controller and color scheme? No mention fo that.
Her delivery was weak. (Score:3, Funny)
the original Xbox controllers which are too big for my hands,
actually, that should read too big for human hands.
Regardless of the veracity of her points her delivery was flawed.
For example: the laughably phallic joystick,
with subjectivity bleeding through in the first paragraph, you know you aren't being given a fair shake- this is not a truly academic analysis- this is just a rant. Joysticks haven't been phallic since the war pilots who came up with the name.
Most controllers have some variation on the 4-way cross, or a small, stubby analog thumb controller. These modern day controllers can only be construed as phallic by those with millimeter peters.
And around every corner is a highly personal take.
For example:
"
But the hype surrounding Lara Croft was gross. The hype undercut
her image as strong smart archeologist. The hype made her into a
sex kitten. "
I had no idea lara croft was an archaeologist, so you are correct that the 'hype' (or 'advertising', as I like to call it) under cut that. But she wasn't presented as merely a sex kitten. No, she was presented as a BAD-ASS Sexy action hero. NEWSFLASH! Strong is sexy- always has been, always will be. THe strong/sexy woman has been a dominant character type in contemporary fiction; especially science fiction (with the venn diagram of Sci Fi lovers and gamers being significant).
While I admire someone's effort to bring to light something I take for granted (gender issues in games) I really would hope for a bit more rigour in the work (and no, defining "genderspace" doesn't count as rigour unless this is a freshman year undergrad writing course. and then you would only get a C...)
Re:Her delivery was weak. (Score:2)
Final Fantasy X-2 has all girl cast (Score:3, Informative)
I think people needs to stop stereotyping things into "girls stuff" vs. "boys stuff," and instead just into "good stuff" and "crappy stuff."
Granted, most gamefaqs kids are in the midst of their teenage-hood so probably still searching for "oneself." But anyhoo - these stereotypes should not be propagated in the first place. I do wonder where they start.
I think it's a good point. (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is this: while a whole bunch of gender stereotyped Lara Croft clones with huge tits and wierd dialog might be great for 13 year old boys, its really jarring to those of us who are buying it more for the escapism than for the battle cleavage.
I don't want to get jarred out of whatever minimal plot they've kludged together by something SOOOO campy I can't even willingly suspend my raucious sarcastic laughter, more less my disbelief.
I'm not saying no softcore and no random bimbos, but it needs to be balanced and used intelligently. (If that isn't inherently contradictory.) The best selling games are those that have either phenominal gameplay, or acceptable gameplay with great plot. Over and over you see games that are technically mediocre and well written crushing games that are technically superior and thematically challenged.
Just my opinion.
Journalism mimicking academia... (Score:4, Interesting)
I have followed GGA [gamegirladvance.com] for quite a while and whilst I appreciate Jane's [gamegirladvance.com] enthusiasm, I do feel that her take on games journalism is particularly exploitative.
Moreover she has the annoying habit of selling her work off to the reader as an academic piece. If she wants that type of prestige, that an academic career offers, then she should follow that (she is eminently capable of this). The halfway house she occupies at present only acts to accentuate her apparent insidious vapidity.
I am all for constructive academic discussion on the medium of videogames, but I will not advocate frustrated games journalists who feel slighted by their chosen career path.
Do not get me wrong, I agreed with everything that [gamegirladvance.com] article puts forward. It is just the execution that I contest to being overtly manipulative.
Promiscuous linking (Score:2, Funny)
This is more of a complaint about a common practice on Slashdot, rather than this particular story.
When posting stories, the original poster often puts in too many links. For example, the above story has a link to Game Girl Advance even though it has the link to the story itself, making the first link redundant.
Enough [sonypictures.com] with the promiscuous [techtarget.com] linking [vgcats.com]!
Blah Blah Stereotypes Blah (Score:2, Interesting)
I got three titles for you. "The Longest Journey". "Syberia". "Duke Nukem". The first two games are great games with leading female charaters -- emphasis on "great games" first and "woman power" a distant second. "Duke Nukem" is the male version of "Tomb Raider", stereotype-wise.
You may point out that games like "TLJ" and "Syberia" are exceedingly rare in today's market. Guess what ? So are good movies. Last time I checked, most modern movies feature explosions and sex, or emo
Phantasy Star (Score:3, Interesting)
The lead character of the game was a woman named Alis. Later a cat name Myau joins your party as well as a somewhat androgenous character named Noah (it is never explained whether Noah is male or female).
Reading it like that you'd think the game was a rather sugar coated girly game, but it's not. It's a serious RPG. And it's excecuted so well that any notion that this is somehow "less" of a game because it stars a woman is just not there because of how strong of a character Alis is. There was no sexism in the game, no larger than life boobs, no skimpy clothes, none if it. Alis was taken seriously in the game, and the designers allowed the player to take her seriously as well w/ the way the portrayed her.
In a time, especially in the 80's, when female leads were not even heard of, let alone designed w/ dignity, this was one game that really got it right. I was very surprised when, even today, there are very few games that take women lead roles seriously, as something more than just sex objects, floozies, etc. Indeed, Phantasy Star was well ahead of its time in that sense.
Flame on!!! (Score:5, Funny)
I stopped at the above quote. So much for objectivity. I think the author needs to get laid.
Re:Flame on!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Cheesegirls (Score:2, Funny)
You know, almost every food sells more with cheese on it (except root beer).
And everything sells better with a girl on it.
I'm going to start renting cheese-covered girls to auto shows.
-- We're not civilized. We just have better toys.
TH3 (Score:3, Informative)
In their shoes (Score:5, Insightful)
First, it's been brought up that Duke Nukem, with it's tight-shirted muscle man didn't offend guys the way Tomb Raider offended some women. However, Tomb Raider didn't present the option of paying male strippers. For that matter, you spend all of Tomb Raider starring at Lara read end, while you spend Duke Nukem starring at Duke's boot.
Next, on the whole issue of out-of-place sexuality in games, just think how many gamers were pissed by the Hot tub scene at the Honey Bee in Midgar in Final Fantasy VII. If it had been hot chicks in skimpy swim wear we probably wouldn't have heard as many complaints, but the instant male gamers are forced to deal with a hyper-sexed male game character, they freak.
On the whole issue that people go to games for fantasy, and expect fantasy style characters, I find mostly plausible. However, it breaks my suspension of disbelief when my knight's armor offers as much protection as my female assasin's bikini. Also, when you read classic (aka. good) fantasy and mythology, you don't find hot chicks, you get beautiful women. Helen of Troy didn't have the 'Ass that Launched a Thousand Ships'. Odysseus' Penelope kept well clothed. Tolkein's Arwen could sleep on her stomach. You can still have attractive female character, just try and follow the rules of human anatomy.
Finally, the comments that 'Teenage Males are the video game market' is absolute heresy, considering how many anime fans Slashdot has. You know how the cycle works:
- American Business declares that American's don't like Anime, so they put out a lousy translations with bad voice actors.
- People get pissed by the bad translation and voice acting and don't buy the video.
- Sales come in slow and American Business declares that American's don't like Anime.
Teenage males buy the games because the games are oriented towards teenage males.Unfortunately, we're stuck with it (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm. That's somewhat opaque. What I mean is that it's selling to a market of sales figures, not a market of players. You only need a small fraction of "hardcore" gamers who thrive on blood, guts, and T&A to be buying 75% of the games, which will drive out a HUGE fraction of the buying public.
And let's be honest--it's easier to throw some jiggly cleavage and 'real life blood splatters' into a game than it is to come up with a convincing and immersive world. Easy, guaranteed sales vs. difficult, small sales and a rewarding game. Not many publishing houses are going to support the latter.
As an aside, there are two EXCELLENT games which have important female characters, although not the main character. One is System Shock 2! Blood and guts, first person shooter, with a few women scattered throughout, and...Shodan.
The other is Grim Fandango. Just about as wonderful (and funny!) as an adventure can get, and several women are pivotal to the whole game.
Women in Computing (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/news/proje
While this page is on girls and video games, there are other sections that are also interesting. Read the previous article on programming classes.
Not all characters are perfect.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Tomb Raider in Japan (Score:5, Interesting)
Who cares? (Score:3, Funny)
Stacking the cards? (Score:3, Interesting)
Big guns, big boobs, and big explosions... gee, that sounds a lot like a hollywood blockbuster. Except you're not limited by what actors you can find to play your roles, just by your imagination. What, is she insecure that every woman is like a 40DD-20-30? Has she ever noticed every guy is like 60-40-50? I don't know any guys that this seems so much of an issue to, and I certainly don't know any that look like that. Ok, there's the "mysterios wanderer" characters, but they are as often guys as girls - and hey, why do the old men always have canes and walk hunched over? Shouldn't she be getting her panties in a bunch over that too?
And I'd just like point out a quote from her article, "the laughably phallic joystick". Yeah, because most gamers I know love fiddling with phallic objects for hours on end. If she'd think about it from any other angle than how the gaming industry is out to get her, she'd realize that a making a control phallic would turn away more gamers than it encourages. Maybe she's referring to a different type of joy-stick than I'm thinking of.
Oh, and I'd like to point out that video games are played for pleasure. And beautiful characters (male, female, alien (crystaline, robotic, whatever) ) are more pleasing to look at. Take the Final Fantasy series. Why is a 5' man swinging a 10' long, 1' wide sword? It looks cooler! I don't know about you, but eye candy is a big part of my graphics score; and better graphics means the game is more pleasing to me. So am I going to have to deal with some unrealistically proportioned women in the name of artistic license? Sure, but I'll make that sacrifice.
"Arcade Games with Female Protagonists" (Score:4, Informative)
"Killing time at the airport the other day, I got that whisper of a question in my head -- that whisper I'm sure we've all heard... the one that says:
Now, I'm talking about arcade games where the only possible protagonist was female (unlike games where you could choose a different character one of which was female Gauntlet, or games where you were female for just one particular part Return of the Jedi, or games where player one was female, but player two was male Aliens). I'm also not talking about games where the gender could have been either Space Invaders, Asteroids, PONG.
Searching my little mind I could come up with only the following:
I'm pretty sure this was a female spider because I think it had the "hourglass" mark (which I believe the male lacks).
Here are games that I have been /msg'ed about:
Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
It gets worse further on, though. The writer states about Tomb Raider: "I never played this game" and then goes on to say "Eidos, you really blew it - you alienated all the girls who would have *loved* this game." Excuse me, but how do you know? You never played it, remember? Maybe the gameplay wouldn't even have been of the sort that girls enjoy? I've never played Tomb Raider either, so I certainly won't bash Eidos for "blowing it" in any aspect of its gameplay
Following along she makes a good point about the DOA Volleyball game, but then blows it with a rant about a barmaid in Baldur's Gate. Okay, I don't know about you... but when I play some game with medieval feel I expect my barmaids (wenches) to be ditzy, busty, and generally exactly like the description she gives. It sounds like a perfect fit in that kind of game to me. Guess what, sluts and whores are real and they are a part of the collective group of women on this planet no matter how embarassed you might be about it.
Also, who the hell is "Justin"? I have a hard time taking an article seriously when the writer talks about random third parties without any introduction. (I do know who Justin is from reading other stories on the site, but I might as well not from the article. it's bad writing.)
Moving along I see another thing which frustrates me. She makes a comment about the genderless trolls of Tolkien's world and how they are "inherently male." Okay, fine, let's say I take that at face value (I don't, if something is genderless than it is genderless). Then she goes on to say that she "would like to see more experimentation with genderless or gender-ambivalent characters" Well, which is it? Pick one, please.
Okay, other than that she doesn't trip up. However, I have another major gripe with this article and another point which keeps me from taking it seriously. She never mentions the "male stereotype" that is just as easy to find in videogames. Main characters are always buff and bronzed, always fighting their way through situations. Very rarely if ever will you find a male protagonist in a videogame who is a scrawny 5'2" pasty-faced kid with glasses. Or a chubby awkward boy. The main characters as adults and children are idyllic, and anything that diverts from the stereotypical perfection is villainous or sinister (evil genius plotting destruction) or comic relief (fat person struggling to keep up, always wanting to eat).
She really blows it here. Instead of taking the issue of female stereotyping and the overall shallowness of most videogames (I agree with her) and using it as representative of the greater problems with the total lack of realism and sensibility she totally ignores every other slight to every other class of people because, in typical human fashion, she portrays the injustices as directed primarily at her chosen group of identification. It's a very human thing to do, but also extremely frustrating for someone trying to find some subjective analysis and critique where it is sorely needed.
At any rate, if she had just been up front about wanting some more intelligent, realistic, and more engaging games to go with the testosterone infused ones I think this article would have read much better. However she didn't, and the article (and her cred) suffers because she attempted to take a good point and emphasize it with good evidence (ample in the world of gaming) but instead beat it into the ground with some bad examples and a terribly shallow view. It's a definite shame.
Totally agree with the author (Score:4, Insightful)
My point is GOOD GAMES DON'T NEED to throw sex in our face to make us play. I mean really... who played Zork or Space Quest? Was there a ton of sex in those games? Did a lot of people play them? I *know* we can do better than this.
Video games were a gateway for me into computer science and programming as a child... by appealing only to men you add to the problem of pushing the feminine percentages down in this field.
I have to admit that this is because I find somewhat nerdy girls attractive
Kickass women? (Score:3, Insightful)
I suppose this has a bit to do with the difference between consequence and intent. In the case of the former, the new-style badass female hero, at least superficially ceases to portray the female gender as subordinate and prone to victimization. However, I feel that sometimes, perhaps even often, this is done the purpose of boosting the "sexiness" of the particular character. I think that one characteristic of the contemporary male worldview is that a certain aggressiveness in females is desirable and sexy. And not that making females sexier, by whatever means, is necessarily a bad thing or a form of discrimination. I think that the intent behind this, though, might be seen as a new way of emphasizing female characters' sexuality in a way that appears to be feminist.
Maybe to put it another way: can I ask the males out there if they think girls with guns is sexy? I used to joke around with my friends about making the ultimate sell-out movie and calling it "Breasts with Guns." It's not just that guys like guns, it's that women with guns is sexy idea. To guys.
And so what if it is? It's okay to be sexy. But seen from another point of view, I think there is a certain novelty factor to the supremely empowered female heroine, and sometimes this is done so deliberately and exaggeratedly as to emphasize their femininity. When I say sexiness, I mean both "sex appeal" in an obvious sense, and more importantly, I also mean the strengh of the sexual identity of the character. I guess what I'm proposing is that the empowered female character appears to the audience first and foremost as a powerful female and only secondarily as a powerful person.
As a comparison I might bring up the Chinese term "nu3 qianq2 ren2", or "strong women", which is used to describe the liberated modern female. You'll often find it used when people mention famous female politicians or busniesspersons. I've talked to some of these women (not really famous, but successful), and they've claimed they don't like the term. Of course, on the surface, it's a term of praise. It lauds courage and success. The problem is that it uses the term woman and emphasizes their gender. There's no corresponding "nan2 qiang2 ren2" ("strong man") term.
I'll admit this isn't a perfect comparison to buffed-out women characters, since there's no obviously stated emphasis of the gender of the character, but I get that feeling nonetheless when I see some of the female characters in videogames and movies and whatnot. It's really hard to pick and choose between examples...it's simply a sensation that I get. This feeling is also reinforced when I know that certain works are created by males for males. It's not fair to say men can't imagine women in a reasonabl sex-objective way, but I do think that this is frequently the case in pop-culture works.
Why I dismissed this article (Score:3, Interesting)
OK,
- B
Re:Oh equality my ass (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay. First, I've read both articles and found both to be quite good reads. The Rez Vibrator article was great. The thing has no real obvious applicable shape other than what she did with it. It's like the company said: 'don't waste time on design, their stoners. They'll figure some crazy way to use it.' I don't think the article was any more than a that: an article. It wasn't exploiting the authors sexuality for hits or money.
Second, the genderspace article is NOT screaming in a neo-feminist way for 'equality'. It's simply making what I see as a very good statement about the assumptions and generalizations withing the industries character design. She is not shying away from T&A games, she is simply saying 'hey, girls play games now to, why not some good girl characters that alienate us less?'. She even likes the idea of DOA, it just doesn't appeal to her.
But, you could have RTFA.
Instead you chose to feel emasculated. I think that says WAY more about you than the issue of 'equality'.
Re:Oh equality my ass (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah well, they need an equal audience and without a share of sexuality to attract the guys, the overly present shades of pink would make most guys run away screaming. At least. To be perfectly honest, I just skimmed the linked article a bit, disregarded it as over-analyzed, mildly feminist propaganda which can be summed up in 5 lines of text. Then I just clicked the link with the word "vibrator" in it. So, cheap pushing of their site... Worked on me at least :(
I hope it doesn't become a hit. I would NOT li
Re:What I thought the title meant... (Score:2)
Re:whine whine whine (Score:2)
Re:whine whine whine (Score:3, Insightful)
I like women in my games to have big tits and small waists.
Girls just flock to you don't they?
Re:whine whine whine (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, just like the laughably phallic handle on my frying pan, the laughably phallic handle on a tennis racket, or the laughably phallic bannana I had for breakfast today.
I think it was John Lovitz in an interview that told a story about the time he went to see "Crimson Tide" with a girlfriend. When he asked her what she tought of the movie she answered something along the lines of "It was a phallic movie. Subs were phallic shaped, torpedoes were phallic shaped, etc". His reply was "Thanks god it wasn't vagina shaped or it would fill with water and sink."
My point is, those who see penises everywhere are just plain obsessed. Even Freud said that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Re:whine whine whine (Score:2)
Unless you're Monica Lewinski.