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Classic Games (Games) Entertainment Games

IDSA Requests VIC 20 Cartridge Roms Takedown 62

Posted by CowboyNeal from the obsolescence-is-no-excuse dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The VIC20 cartridge dump archive has been taken down by FUNET following a request by the IDSA (Interactive Digital Software Association). More info from comp.sys.cbm." Of course, VIC 20 users are now going to have to buy their cartridges in stores, and by "stores", I mean garage sales, flea markets, and swap meets.
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IDSA Requests VIC 20 Cartridge Roms Takedown More

IDSA Requests VIC 20 Cartridge Roms Takedown

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  • Copyright (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aridhol ( 112307 ) <ka_lac@hotmail.com> on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:12PM (#5855192) Homepage Journal
    Remember, they are still covered under copyright. For the next century at least, unless Disney extends the mouse again. There's no such thing as abandonware. Which is why Disney can put their movies into "the vault" for long periods of time, only to open it again for the next generation.
    • No, seriously, mod them up as +1 insightful. Stupid though it may be, it is covered under copyright, and whoever holds that circle-C is the one who declares how it gets used.
    • I fail to see how the copyrights are able "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" if all the copyright does is keep things out of publication...

      • Re:Copyright (Score:5, Interesting)

        by aridhol ( 112307 ) <ka_lac@hotmail.com> on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:26PM (#5855376) Homepage Journal
        Hey, I didn't say I agree with the way copyrights are currently handled. I just said that, in the eyes of the law, they're "protected" by copyright.

        Personally, I think copyright should cease to apply when you no longer use the material in question. This would prevent Disney from "vault"ing movies, or software companies from suing abandonware sites.

        The only problem I see with this is handling old versions of software that are still being maintained. For example, Windows is still being maintained, but Windows 3.1 isn't. I'm not sure how to handle that situation.

        For most things (books, movies, alot of software), it would be fairly clear-cut. Of course, there's probably something I haven't thought of.

        • This actually makes me think of my grandfather's old farm. Don't mark me offtopic yet. Wait for me to tie it back in. Some of my grandfather's farm, as he explains it, was taken and given to a railroad company for a right-of-way. The rules were simple, if that rail line did not handle a certain capacity, then the land reverted to my grandfather's ownership--eminent domain. So, forty or fifty years later, once a quarter the rail company would drive a very small train, very, very slowly over nearly unusable t

          • So what's to prevent software owners from driving through quarterly? 'Yes, you can buy that. It will take 2 years, cost $500, and be in the form of punched cards you have to manually convert to a usable form.'

            • A very good question. I believe that a suitable level of maintenance would need to be established, either by law or precedence. Since the source of my opinion is derived from a rickety old rail line, which to all who witnessed it knew was truely not serviceable except to maintain rights, I would hope that a level set would show that the owner was making a reasonable effort to maintain and not trying to stall its release into the domain.

            • That would only be a problem if they cared about it. If Microsoft cares about Windows 3.1 they could just release new Windows 3.1 CD's yearly, and that's just fine with me. Meanwhile, all that excellent software from companies that no longer exist, or where the author would prefer to see his work live on in PD instead of dying, would become available without making the public at large criminals.

              The risk I see with this is that a single company (say, Microsoft or Disney) could simply buy old media from oth

    • Your argument would hold, if the letter was actually protecting the IDSA members' property. However, that may not be the case. Having had my own abandonware page (until I switched to review-only format) and still being active in the abandonware community, I've had enough exposure to IDSA and their letters that I know now that the vast majority of their letters is pure harrassment, not based on facts. They love to make two mistakes in their letters:
      • Name confusion. Often, there are several games with t
    • I was recently given a new mobile phone by my phone company as part of a promotion for their new 2.5G service. It has a camera and all the goodies, including Java games. INterestingly there are a lot of the old so-called "abandoned" games that are being ported to Java and sold for these new phones. Therefore the copyright owners are still able to benefit from their creations. However the abandonware sites severaly diminish the market for these conversions. I mean, why pay $5 (Australian - that'd be about $2
  • From the site... "Like I wrote, it looked like an automated form letter sent with a fake
    name, and we haven't received any further response."

    Fantastic! Now we have form letter Cease and Desist spam to deal with too.
    • Hmm... In that case, I may have waited to confirm the sender. However, as I commented earlier [slashdot.org], there's no such thing as abandonware. These files are technically in breach of copyright law.
  • They might as well go after TI/99-4A cartridge ROMs while they're at it.

    Does anybody in the IDSA truly believe that software archives for a 20 year old computer that hasn't been sold in over 15 years are really a threat to civilization? As if any of their members are planning to reissue this stuff. There is no market for it.

    • Re:Dumb. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Jerf ( 17166 ) on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:38PM (#5855533) Journal
      I [amazon.com] used [amazon.com] to [amazon.com] buy [amazon.com] this [amazon.com] argument [amazon.com], but [amazon.com] I [amazon.com] don't [amazon.com] anymore [worldvillage.com].

      (Note on the last one, I purchased that once for $2 just for Beamrider, which remains a truly awesome game.)

      Of course it need not be a "threat to civilization", it need only harm a bottom line, and the argument can be made that it indeed may. (Note a lot of old stuff is coming out for the Gameboy Advance, for instance; I purchased the Phantasy Star Collection [gamefaqs.com] recently, and I am pleased. What I'd really like is the Bard's Tale on the GBA, though. If it weren't for the infernal need to make money that would be a cool development project to undertake.
      • Right, but those are the rare few games that withstood the test of time. What I'd like to know is where I can find a copy of "Head over Heels" for the Commodore 64, and some hardware reliable enough to play it on. The problem is, not enough copies were sold, it wasn't popular enough to port, any old copies are suspect to failure, the C-64 was flaky back then, a used C-64 is a crapshoot at best, and won't hook into my television anyway.

        But, dammit, I loved that game. I don't see where society is served b
        • I agree with you, too. A better balance needs to be struck, between the extremes of 'everything is locked up for 150 years' and 'screw the companies, I can do whatever I want if I think I deserve it'.
          • I agree with you, too. A better balance needs to be struck, between the extremes of 'everything is locked up for 150 years' and 'screw the companies, I can do whatever I want if I think I deserve it'.

            Easy. Low-volume distribution of digital materials needs to be secure in order to make sustained availability work. DRM.

            Or copyright law could be rolled back to only protecting work for a short time, enough to protect works for a reasonable sales period before letting them fall into the public domain. This wa

      • The real way it hurts the bottom line is elsewhere, though. If you had access to every old movie/song/game/etc. for free, you might buy less new shit.

        That's why you can't share Kirby the Wonder Bug movies via P2P any more than you can share Matrix:Reloaded. That's why they don't want crap coming out of copyright for 90 years. It's not like Casablanca is that essential to their bottom line.

      • To quote T. Roosevelt, "Exactly!"

        One who repliled to your comment stated that the games you cited are the only ones to withstand the test of time. I disagree. How do we know that a certain game, now derelict, will not become a market sensation in a year or two? There is an old Activision game that I hated even when it was out, but my son loves it. So, for somebody to say, "yes, but the game I'm talking about wouldn't sell so it should be released," ignores the possiblity that it may sell. (This prevents co

    • There is no market for it.

      There must be some sort of market for these old cartridges, otherwise there wouldn't be an archive of them to download from in the first place.

      • It obviously must not be significant enough for the copyright holder to exploit it. Just significant enough to keep others from doing so.
  • Why are they going after enthusiasts that are keeping an obsolete platform alive? I can understand it if you could actually buy the games at a store, but this seems silly. They should do what more reputable companies do when their products become obsolete: support those who keep the flame alive. Instead of shutting people down, a much more nobel move would be to release the IP to public domain.

  • Blast! (Score:5, Funny)

    by jvmatthe ( 116058 ) on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:18PM (#5855260) Homepage
    I was just about done downloading these to save to 5.25" floppies! My Vic had been on for days doing this, poor little 300 baud modem, and I'd been praying that my wife wouldn't pick up the phone and cause it to hang up. Now they're gone!

    Can someone please put them up on a BBS so I can try grabbing them again?

    Thanks! ;^)

  • IDSA FAQ - very informative, scroll down a bit! (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:19PM (#5855286)
    What is the IDSA?

    Formed in April 1994, the Interactive Digital Software Association (IDSA) is the U.S. trade association exclusively dedicated to serving the business and public affairs needs of companies that publish video and computer games for video game consoles (such as Nintendo 64, Sega Saturn, and PlayStation), personal computers, and the Internet. Our members collectively account for more than 90 percent of the $5.5 billion generated by the entertainment software industry in the U.S. in 1998, and billions more in export sales of U.S.-made entertainment software. The IDSA offers services to entertainment software publishers including a global anti-piracy program, government relations, business and consumer research, and First Amendment and intellectual property prote ction efforts.

    What is the scope of the IDSA Anti-Piracy program?

    The IDSA Anti-Piracy Program is designed to combat entertainment software piracy both in the U.S. and around the world. Worldwide piracy is estimated to have cost the U.S. entertainment software industry $3.2 billion in 1998.

    IDSA anti-piracy efforts include: direct investigation and enforcement actions domestically, internationally and in the on-line environment, working closely with government agencies such as United States Trade Representative, the United States Customs Ser vice, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), and foreign government officials and training and educating customs agents & law enforcement officers in the United States and around the world.

    The IDSA is authorized by its members, who own the copyrights and trademarks for their hardware and software, to act on their behalf against violations of their copyrights and trademarks. This includes taking action against unauthorized ROMs, unauthorized hardware and software emulators, and pirated software.

    Does the IDSA have any affiliation with the U.S. government?

    The IDSA is an independent trade association that is funded by dues and revenue from other association functions. The IDSA is not affiliated with the U.S. government, or any other government, in any way, shape or form.

    Isn't it legal to copy video & computer games as a backup as long as you own a legitimate copy?

    U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet. Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. Also, there is not an unfettered right to sell "backup" copies. In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program.

    Isn't it OK to copy games that are no longer distributed in the stores or commercially exploited?

    No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant to its copyright status. Unlike trademarks, copyrights are not considered abandoned if they are no longer enforced. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because they are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and copying or distributing those games is a copyright infringement.

    Haven't the copyrights for old games (like Atari & Commodore) expired?

    U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 75 years from the date of firs
  • Find out WHO owns the rights and ask THEM about it. If you can cut a deal behind the IDSAs back, you can tell them to sit on a mid-digit and rotate...

    • Unfortunately, after 20 years, the companies have been bought, sold, or dissolved. To do the various court document searches to find out who really holds the copyright may cost tens of thousands of dollars (or less. But while I'm making up shit, I'll make it sound impressive:) You run into two final arbiters. First is one of the big companies that are still around today. Basically, they say, 'fuck you'. We might rerelease this Atari 2600 game one of these days. Or a developer who is now a used car salesmen
  • Is that "Fuck You Network?"

  • Your dollars will make the difference... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by OwnerOfWhinyCat ( 654476 ) * on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:47PM (#5855636)
    We all know that the copyright system needs a bit of an overhaul in the face of the technological changes of this and the previous century.

    We all know that it is in the most profitable interests of large content holders/providers to fight these changes.

    Whining will help, but not much.

    If you want the Vic20 cartridges, buy the rights from the copyright holder and release them.

    If you want to win the right to all the old cartridges and games and the technology that has blended into our cultural heritage in decades past, but is no longer profitable to package for consumers, support the EFF and change the law. This is not simply how honorable people fight these battles, it is how we win them in such a way that our children can fight new battles with these safely behind.

  • I've always wondered (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Deagol ( 323173 ) on Thursday May 01, 2003 @02:53PM (#5855711) Homepage
    Since most of these types of notices are form-letter-style, can't one request a paper trail from the organization to prove that 1) They do, in fact, represent the particular copyright holder; and 2) That the particular copyright holder does, in fact, own the copyright/trademark on the software being made available?

    I recall some ROM site (TI99/4A site perhaps?) where the owner got explicit permission from the copyright holders to post their ROMS, but he still got a letter from these goons.

    Short of the discovery process of a lawsuit, is there any way to force the hand of these organizations to prove they are in the right for each specific case?

  • What is a VIC 20 cartridge? A game system I don't know about?
    • The Vic-20 was a personal computer sold by Commodore Business Machines (makers of the Commodore-64), in the late 70s-early 80s which had 4k of onboard RAM. It had a cartridge slot (but could also use floppy disk or tape drives) and there were cartridges sold that contained all sorts of stuff: memory expansion, word processing, games, utilities, etc....

    • Re:me stupid (Score:3, Informative)

      by Spudley ( 171066 )
      VIC20 = The first computer I ever owned.

      Direct predecessor to the Commodore64, and identical in shape, though it was a slightly different shade of beige.

      Not a particularly inspiring machine really, if truth be told. The C64 was fantastic, but the Vic was just a little too underpowered. ...or maybe that's just me remembering my childhood jealousy when I was stuck with the Vic playing a poor-man's version of space invaders, while everyone else was playing Hungry Horace on their C64s.
  • I think that it would be very easy to migrate the archive to a Freesite on the Freenet, and just use a dedicated node to continually upload and refresh the archive.

    Its awful hard to sue for copyright infringement when you don't know where the data originates from, and you can't see who's obtaining it.

    Freenet a good fix for crap like this.

  • 3 questions for VIC 20 users (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lightspawn ( 155347 ) on Thursday May 01, 2003 @03:05PM (#5855821) Homepage
    1. Are there any VIC 20 games that are actually worth playing, and aren't inferior versions of games available for other formats?

    2. Is there a comprehensive list of VIC 20 software (like Cowering's goodtools)?

    3. How big would a zip file containing all available software?

    You can see where I'm heading with this...

    P.S. kids, where are the automated tools to automatically download rom list updates, locate the missing data through various channels (web, news, irc), download, verify and update?
    • Omega Race was one of the games, and a few of the later ones that came out -- I seem to recall a platform game involving characters from Manc Miner.

      But most of the games were done better on the C64 or Spectrum

  • Tape Drive (Score:2, Interesting)

    by gmhowell ( 26755 )
    Yes, this is about carts, but it made me think of the ubiquitous tape drive. Those things sucked, didn't they? Anyway, has anyone tried to copy those tapes to a cd, then hooked the cd player up to the tape drive port? That would be cool.

    I think I'll do that right after I finish strapping the JATO bottle on my Impala.
  • The IDSA has done this to quite a number of sites before this. They are more annoying than the RIAA/MPAA, but much less visible.

    Mostly, they go around to sites which specialize in old or obscure games, and request them to take down full versions of the games (even when the games have been out of print for many years or when the developer has been out-of-business for many years). The Underdogs [the-underdogs.org] comes to mind as one such site - they're definitely not a warez site, but rather, are advocates of independent ga

  • They were damage their revenue stream... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by curious.corn ( 167387 ) on Thursday May 01, 2003 @05:29PM (#5857407)
    ... M$ will push their mobile phone platform into everyone's ass sooner or later and these games are just waiting to be repackaged in a cool new .NET shrinkwrap (or .99 $ one-click dl ;-) You all know the crowds are holding their breath to play pacman on the cell... sigh! Sad to think I'm only joking while those fools are probably dead serious, eh? Let's play an old game instead: guess how many PowerPoint presentations have been wasted on these scenarios?
  • RIAA's comments on the Takedown:

    Damages estimated at $500,000, for stealing the "equivalent" of 10,000 roms (some of the ROMS were MUCH bigger than the standard 3k.) FUNET will need to provide full payment directly to the RIAA, who will use the money to make sure this doesn't happen in the future.

  • When you buy software you are really..
    a) buying a copyrighted material
    b) buying a patented virtual process
    c) buying a trademarked item
    d) buying a copyrighted, patented, trademarked license to "use" a piece of software at the sole discretion of the IDSA.

    Seriously though, the realy problem is what's making LAWYERS soooo RICH is the loosely defined boundaries that they keep arguing over what software is.

    Wait, you're not allowed to use that piece of software to make money, it's a patented process. Oh, patent

  • DeCSS (Score:1)

    by Hoch ( 603322 )
    What really makes me angry is that they are trying to claim copyright on something that has been deemed to not even be a form of speech. This is blasphemy!

    --hoch

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