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PC Games (Games) Entertainment Games

Biofeedback Gaming 223

runningwater writes "A new kind of game was debuted at the E3 expo. It is called Journey to Wild Divine. The game features a biofeedback USB interface designed to allow a player (or players) to navigate through the game using their mind power, breath, and heart rate. This is a wild and visionary concept which works so fluidly you can blow on the screen and objects move as if propelled by your breath. The game features an awesome soundtrack, including Grammy-nominated artists and spanning many genres. This is the new generation of gaming, and you have never seen anything like this before." Their site has a page with more information about the biofeedback aspect.
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Biofeedback Gaming

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  • by BabyDave ( 575083 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:00PM (#6081987)
    Obligatory MegaTokyo link [megatokyo.com]
  • Tetris (Score:5, Informative)

    by Loosewire ( 628916 ) * on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:00PM (#6081990) Homepage Journal
    Tetris had this years ago, Tetris plus with and ear tag to measure your heartbeat then speed up the game as it beats more :-)
  • by MisterFancypants ( 615129 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:03PM (#6082003)
    I think this is the kind of thing you need to see in action to appreciate it.... The web site alone doesn't give it the sense of being anything special.

    Ah well.

  • by inkedmn ( 462994 ) <inkedmn@inkedDEGASmn.com minus painter> on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:03PM (#6082004) Homepage
    the PowerPad and PowerGlove Nintendo put several years ago? this seems like the next step in that direction ("physical gaming")
  • 2 questions (Score:5, Interesting)

    by astrashe ( 7452 ) * on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:06PM (#6082018) Journal
    1. Will the game be fun to play?

    2. Will playing a biofeedback game teach you how to do things with your state of mind that are difficult to learn in other ways?

    It's an intresting idea... the devil (or God) will be in the details, though.
    • Who cares - just wait 'til you see what this does for online porn!
      • Re:2 questions (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Ianworld ( 557858 )
        I think that quote gets modded up for every slashdot news post.

        More bandwith, " wait 'til you see what this does for porn!"

        New graphics card " wait 'til you see what this does for porn!"

        New Virus named after girl " wait 'til you see what this does for porn!"

        Chinese moon base in 2012 " wait 'til you see what this does for online porn!"

        Build your own fuel injection computer " wait 'til you see what this does for online porn!" :)

        -Ian
    • Re:2 questions (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      my younger sister has asperger's, and this treatment has been effective at helping her.
  • by SYFer ( 617415 ) * <syfer AT syfer DOT net> on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:07PM (#6082020) Homepage
    I see a huge synergistic opportunity for the good people at Parks Medical Electronics, manufacturers of Penile Plethysmographs (be sure and scroll down to see a photo of your future "interface"):

    Plethysmographs [parksmed.com]
  • by Peterus7 ( 607982 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:07PM (#6082023) Homepage Journal
    Mixed with AI, you could have some twisted ass dating sims...

    "Why are you breathing so hard? Hey! Stop looking at me like that!"

  • by Trent Polack ( 622919 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:09PM (#6082035) Homepage
    So, the new generation of gaming involves blowing on a screen while listening to grammy-award winning music? ... Right. If you'll excuse me, I hear my Super Nintendo calling my name.
  • by Snowpony ( 139174 ) * <snowy@sno w y . o rg> on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:10PM (#6082037) Homepage
    This certainly sounds like interesting technology but I guess I am skeptical until I get to see it first hand. The website [wilddivine.com] itself gave me an impression of one of those 'enlightenment' cults. Is it a game or a stress-relief tool? A way to inner peace and tranquility perhaps? It's hard to say.

    The testimonials [wilddivine.com] are what you would expect from a new product but with no mention of an estimated release date or where to purchase it makes me wonder if this could just end up being a marketing tool without an actual release.

    I guess I'm going to have to wait until I see something more tangible.

    • by Annon Kaies Zi ( 674211 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:29PM (#6082130) Homepage
      Actually, it does give a estimated date: "The Journey to Wild Divine, produced by The Wild Divine Project, based in Boulder, Colorado, and scheduled for release in September 2003, is a ground-breaking interactive computer journey that integrates the power of the spiritual quest with an innovative biofeedback interface and high-end multimedia production."
      • Oh Indeed! I must have skipped over that!

        I read through most of the rest of the website and it does seem to be a tool for meditation more than a game. The screen shots do appear rather nice if lacking in obvious movement (hard to tell from just screen shots granted).

        I do have concerns about a doctor called "Whitehouse" though that they use to describe the interface [wilddivine.com] - it makes it sound very official if you only give a cursory glance over the material.

        On the plus side it does appear to be going to

  • by tupshin ( 5777 ) <tupshin@tupshin.com> on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:10PM (#6082039) Homepage
    "We envision a world where vibrant wellness is the norm, consciousness transforms beyond fear, and people live in creative abundance in harmony with the earth."
    http://www.wilddivine.com/modules.php?nam e=Content &pa=showpage&pid=21

    OMG...make it stop
    • It's worse than that:

      "At the Wild Divine Project, our founding principles" ... "are to serve as an integrative force among groups aligned with our vision and mission."

      Are they anticipating an increase in followers after releasing their "biofeedback" game? Perhaps the flower wearing, left leaning, tree hugging people at the company are actually taking this "Rocky Mountain High" thing a little bit too far.
    • by Selanit ( 192811 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @01:12AM (#6083088)
      Yes; there's some hazy new-ageishness about their work. On the other hand, there is also some decent science there. Biofeedback, in this context, is used to measure alterations in your physical state, and that change controls what happens in the game. In essence, in order to control the game world you need to learn to control your own physical state: heartrate, sweat production, brainwave activity.

      When I was a kid, I was diagnosed with ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). At one point, my parents signed me up for some biofeedback sessions. I would go to this office in downtown Denver, and they would put one of those electrode nets on my head -- they always used to squirt some cold goop into each electrode to ensure good conductivity between the electrode and my scalp. This was annoying, because the goop got kind of crusty when it dried out -- always had to wash my hair when I got home.

      Anyway, once the net was in place they'd hook me up to a computer. The screen displayed information about the state of my brainwaves -- alphas, betas, gammas, deltas -- and my task was to attempt to control the relative levels thereof. The theory was that if I could learn to do that, I could apply the same technique elsewhere (eg in school) to sharpen my concentration.

      I never noticed that it worked especially well. I suspect there are two reasons for this: 1) I didn't stick with it for very long; and 2) the information about my brainwaves was displayed as colored graphs -- line graphs, bar graphs, and I seem to recall a pie chart, too. Staring at a line graph scrolling past on a computer screen for an hour is really damn boring. The objective was to heighten my concentration skills. Presenting me with a boring-ass chart was probably not the best way to do that.

      If I did well in a session, they would let me use their computer to play Commander Keen for a while before my parents came to pick me up. I was much more interested in playing Commander Keen than in those stupid charts.

      For that reason, I think this game may be a huge advance over the stuff they had me do. Having an external objective to focus on (ie manipulating the game environment) is much more interesting than trying to make colored lines stay low. If the price isn't too high, I may just buy a copy of the game and the USB controller and give it a shot.
  • Extensibility (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The Only Druid ( 587299 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:12PM (#6082046)
    Personally, I'm excited about this simply for the opportunity to have an emperical means for assisting people in meditation, in their own homes. This could open up whole groups of individuals for meditation and the related philosophy or theology with which they want to associate it.

    That said, I'd be particularly excited if the system could somehow be made extensible, i.e. that using a front-end software they provide you associate certain activities with normal system commands. In such a system, for example, you could perhaps script an interface to react to your GSR to control any game.

    Alternately, I'd hope that they have a simple front end so that an end-user could write a program to read the same information from the sensors. This would allow us to basically create parallel games or simply meditative tools without the "storyline" or particular format of their game.
  • i wonder... (Score:5, Funny)

    by bongobongo ( 608275 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:12PM (#6082047)
    ...what kind of in-game effect urination will produce? :D
  • by PS-SCUD ( 601089 ) <peternormanscott ... m ['yah' in gap]> on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:12PM (#6082049) Journal
    I sure hope this isn't a FPS.......
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:13PM (#6082056)
    I'm confused. How does this relate to SCO? Please let's stick to the topic!
  • by product byproduct ( 628318 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:13PM (#6082061)
    - Put a big monster just behind a corner in an attempt to scare the hell out of you.
    - Wait for you to turn the corner.
    - Check heart rate.
    - If heart rate > 150 write "gotcha!!" on screen.
  • Cult? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by trinity93 ( 215227 )
    wasent there an episode of Cowboy Bebop along these lines?
  • Can we mate the controller with a FPS? Players could be forced to get into a "somewhat meditative" state into order to use their flamethrower. How about a controller that measures additional biometric parameters? It could incorporate an anal probe, for example, and players could be required to bring their sphincter tension within a certain range to circumnavigate obstacles.
  • AI version (Score:3, Funny)

    by nick_davison ( 217681 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:19PM (#6082083)
    I'm waiting for a version with seriously inteligent AI and high quality VR before I plug MY bio energy in.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:21PM (#6082092) Homepage
    This is a wild and visionary concept which works so fluidly you can blow on the screen and objects move as if propelled by your breath.

    umm I had a biofeedback input device on my TANDY Color Computer in 1985. and it had a couple of games that allowed you to "play" them.

    Whil I'm sure they have advanced cince then it is hardly visionary.

    I love it when the new pup's learn old tricks they think they were the first to come up with it.

    Yes it's better cince they take more than 2 inputs (heartrate and skin conductivity for "biorythim") but then I played with a ekg input device in college in 1990 also..

    when they can make it so I can play quake with my thoughts THEN I'll be impressed.
    • OK, a disclaimer first: I think this is as weak as anyone, though I wouldn't call it gay like one poster above did, since that would be an insult to gays.

      However, the site claims to measure not just heart rate and skin conductivity, but the tiny variations in the time interval between heart beats as well. To wit:

      The Journey's biofeedback component measures a player's galvanic skin response (GSR) and heart rate variability. GSR measures sweat gland activity. Increased perspiration indicates increa

  • by Daffy ( 1599 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:21PM (#6082095)
    Ignoring the fact that this is being proposed as a game, its environment appears to be one that allows the mind to manipulate an environment.

    The environment itself is rendered (hopefully in real time!) with apparent triggers throughout the game. For example wondering up to a waterfall where your heartrate increases by a small factor could trigger a dolphin jumping in the water....

    This type of biofeedback is definately useful! If any folk have ever attempted meditation and reaching towards understanding of self, the lack of instant-feedback makes this process extremely difficult for the uninitiated.

    Overall I see this project as a very good idea that is hopefully implemented well. Ultimately, however, I don't see this catching on as society isn't designed around relaxation and exploring ones own self.

    And a shame....

    -Just some crazy duck.
    (wow, userid 1599 and i think this is my first post ever to /.)
    • ...I don't see this catching on as society isn't designed around relaxation and exploring ones own self.

      Why do you say that? I mean, really, is society designed, or does it evolve? If it is indeed designed (by the illuminati, I assume), then can we (read: you) speak for the intent of the designer without in fact being the designer. If you are the designer, why did you design something in a way that cou consider to be a shame? Even more basically: can something be designed around anything at all (survi
    • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @10:18PM (#6082516) Journal
      "The environment itself is rendered (hopefully in real time!) with apparent triggers throughout the game. For example wondering up to a waterfall where your heartrate increases by a small factor could trigger a dolphin jumping in the water...."

      Just what I need... the likes of me will probably end up downing three double espresso's before visiting the waterfall just so I can see that god-damned dolphin.
    • I'm not even sure I see why this project is a "very good idea"? I think the technology has some promise. (A system that coordinates such things as you blowing towards the screen and having items on the screen react to your breath is pretty cool, for example.) I just don't see this "new age, neo-hippie meditative journey" software as being the "killer app" that convinces us to buy into the USB control devices making it happen.

      Perhaps society is already as "designed around relaxation" as it can be, withou
    • by Anonymous Coward
      As far as I can see, we've got pre-rendered doors every ten metres that you open by reaching a different heart-rate, skin-response, and so on. Oh boy! Sometimes the door opening is disguised as making the boat move, sometiems as making the crystal ball light up, but really...

      When console controllers were equipped with analog triggers for the first time, did someone say "now we can have a revolutionary game where some of the tasks require the player to hold the right trigger just the right amount while hold
  • Duck Hunt? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by teklob ( 650327 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:21PM (#6082097)
    I think 'physical gaming' is much more fun to play and also more rewarding. Anyone remember Duck Hunt for NES? That game would've been pretty bad if it weren't for the fact that you could actually aim at the ducks with a gun and hit them. That totally redeemed the boring gameplay and ancient graphics. Actually I'm gonna go play now...
  • Meaningful? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Jad LaFields ( 607990 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:21PM (#6082098)
    We think you'll agree, there have never been computer images as beautiful and as meaningful as you'll see in The Journey to Wild Divine.

    I don't know, I've seen screenshots of me attacking innocent bystanders with a chainsaw in Vice City. One could derive all too much meaning from that kind of computer imagery...
  • Nice Ad (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:23PM (#6082110)
    I give the authors of this game +5 for creative advertising. That last sentence "is the new generation of gaming, and you have never seen anything like this before" gave it away as an advertisement though.

    Still, good job of slipping it past the /. "editors"
  • All I see is them talking about a game that involves biofeedback - is it your character's biofeedback you are manipulating?

    If this is the case, this game is completely inane.
  • by gricholson75 ( 563000 ) * on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:35PM (#6082147) Homepage
    That's what it looks like. No thanks.
  • I used software set up with an EEG (which measures brainwave activity), and the goal was to make the fishes on the screen more tranquil by relaxing myself. This game seems like it may train people to be more anxious constantly. (I'm not dissing the idea, which is really cool.)
  • navigate through the game using their mind power,

    Wouldn't this discriminate against idjits?
    • <flame mode>
      No doubt. All this talk of mind power and "energy"... no thanks, I think I will stick to conventional relaxation techniques that don't profess this granola-eating mumbo-jumbo. Meditation is about self-control, not this pseudo-scientific hippy shit.
      </flame mode>
      That's just my opinion though. I personally believe true happiness is found lifting bars with weights on the end. YMMV.
  • by FrankoBoy ( 677614 ) <frankoboy@@@gmail...com> on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:41PM (#6082177) Homepage Journal
    I've been working in some psychology research labs for some time now. One the professors I've worked with studies neurofeedback, i.e. monitoring the electrical activity of the brain with electrodes attached on the head. I've actually helped training a bunch of kids to move a cursor on a screen simply by getting them to be concentrated on moving it wherever it had to be at that moment. ( some info here [neurofeedb...ribric.com] and here [neurofeedbackcenters.com]. It's not excluded at all that in the near future, we'll be able to gain control of computer interfaces with a little help from such devices. It's my first post on /. , nice ;)
    • I've always wanted to play with that kind of stuff.

      What type of equipment is needed? Is it expensive type stuff or basically just an RF receiver taped to your head?

      What frequency are brain waves at? I would assume they are not very constant... kinda like reading a FM signal?
    • by MikeFM ( 12491 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @10:09PM (#6082476) Homepage Journal
      We did that in highschool for a project. Using a cheap kit we found in a electronics magazine (was like $20).. I think it was some sort of eeg. (I could be wrong.. neuroscience isn't really my field). we hacked a mouse driver to work with it and a couple of us learned to move a cursor with it.. then we hooked it up to Doom and could use it to run around. It took a lot of practice but was really cool. The input from our head shrinking device sent back waveforms as it's data so we used a library for word recognition to pick out whatever wave we could force ourselves to make on demand. Probably nothing as cool as you have but for a highschool project it kicked ass. The headgear wasn't very comfortable though and sometimes you couldn't control as well as you could with a mouse. :)
    • I really hope this kinda stuff takes off. Just simple, even inaccurate, mouse control could have so many possible implications. Think of Stephen Hawking, right now he communicates with a single button, upgrade that to a mouse and we may get the Grand Unified Theory of Everything by the end of the decade! Or how about controling extra interfaces on aircraft? You could change settings on the HUD without taking your hands off the stick. I bet this could be adapted to see if you are fit to drive (due to tiredne
  • Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Annon Kaies Zi ( 674211 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @08:44PM (#6082185) Homepage
    Well, I must say this seems very interesting. I am hoping this will be as good as it sounds. Hell, this might start a whole new genre in gaming. Can you imagine this technology being placed in a First-Person Shooter? Where your calmness actually affects your accuracy in using a sniper rifle. Or where being able to move faster depends on how your heart-rate is reacting. I think this could be the next step in a new generation of gaming. Where how you act effects your game play, and how focused you are. Imagine being in Unreal and being able to "know" if someone is near you, and (because of the senses) being able to react so fast you can aim at them and head shot before they can notice...
  • this would work great in a sniper-type fps

    being a real sniper requires control of your pulse and breathing... try a look at a biathlon event? you ski like crazy... then with your heart and breath racing, you're supposed to find the calm to shoot targets... training your control over your pulse and breath seems like a natural plug-in for a video game with biofeedback

    or maybe some deer hunter type game too

    totally turns the new age message behind this idea on it's head, but i think the grand theft auto crowd would get behind this sooner than the new age crap
    • or maybe some deer hunter type game too

      *obligatory hick joke*

      I wonder if it could tell if you're drunk, too...

      *end obligatory hick joke*

      Thanks to being from the south, I know dozens of guys who LOVE Deer Hunter but won't touch Quake 3. Sigh...
  • by Superfreaker ( 581067 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @09:00PM (#6082238) Homepage Journal
    Biofeedback, eh?

    I've seen these devices, they usually measure minute changes in the physical state of a person. Like they mention heart rate, others, facical temperature. All they simply are, is joysticks that are sensitive to other types of inputs rather than fingers and hands.

    I mean it will be cool and all, but not truly thought propelled. There is a learning curve with these devices. The one I saw had a headset that you had to get good with to use it effectively, because you had to train your facial muscles to contract to control the character.
    Bah.

  • The game will also be welcomed by scientists, scholars, educators, and students who are focusing on personal exploration or optimal performance, according to Whitehouse.

    Did they forget the military? (Keep pushing a soldiers buttons with an offshoot of this until you can't push'em anymore)
    How about hackers that want to really screw with your mind?
    How about cult leaders that require this type of game to "enlighten" someone?
    How about game makers that really want to start toying with the user's emotions?

    T

  • Breath (Score:5, Funny)

    by limekiller4 ( 451497 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @09:12PM (#6082275) Homepage
    From the blurb:
    "This is a wild and visionary concept which works so fluidly you can blow on the screen and objects move as if propelled by your breath."

    My gosh, that's amazing! All I had to do was click on "Hi-Bandwidth QuickTime Movie [wilddivine.com]" and their server got blown away too!

    How do they do that!? ...oh, wait...
  • by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @09:18PM (#6082296)

    Sort of...with the Mindlink [atarihq.com] controller. They were supposed to come out with biofeedback software for this device but the project was canceled. Ah, those were the days...
  • Sounds like Osmose and old Silicon Graphics Sponsored art piece.

    http://www.immersence.com/osmose/osmose.htm [immersence.com]

    I had a go it was kinda fun but not as amazing as people said. I no longer fear death was one quote from a wired article. I think deep breathing for long periods was starving their brains of oxygen.
  • by prockcore ( 543967 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @09:55PM (#6082418)
    I've played this game.. the graphics suck, it's basically just green lines on a black screen. There didn't seem to be any sort of plot at all. I think the name of the game was EKG.
  • Brainfingers! (Score:2, Informative)

    by mikegroovy ( 559853 )
    Actually I really think that the Brainfingers [brainfingers.com] technology is headed in the right direction.. Sensors need more development though, I don't want to have to shave my head to use it. :/
    Bio Feedback is key to learning how to control the various Brain waves that the device monitors, If I had a few extra Grand($ 2,050 + shipping)laying around I'd get the Brainfingers device! well that and a HDTV!
  • If you die in The Journey, do you die in real life?
  • by NeuroManson ( 214835 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @10:13PM (#6082498) Homepage
    One side effect of biofeedback gaming is that the player will have to learn to control their physiology to play the game. In other words, games like this (while overly sedate to some) will train people to be healthier. So first, we have video gaming to improve memory retention, visual response rate and eye hand coordination, but now they'll be reducing stress and blood pressure by practice.

    I think this can be a good thing.
  • Reading through the comments, I can't believe someone hasn't come up with this yet.

    While measuring heartrate, you could tie that to a "Sanity" meter (not unlike Eternal Darkness's).

    Sample scenario:

    While roaming through the woods in the dark, hearing random screams and shrieks and growls, your sanity begins to leave you as your heart beats faster and your breath quickens.

    As you feel the release of safety inside the haunted house, your heart rate slows, your sanity picks up...

    ...just as the beast runs

  • Developed by ClearCode Enterprises, a development firm based entirely in Clearwater, Florida, the Wild Divine allows users to explore their "reactive minds" in search of evil space aliens named Xenu. It is equipped with a pulse reader and polygraph machine, designed to ensure the most truthful exploration of one's soul.

    In other news, Scientology acquires Sierra Entertainment.
  • Bladder pressure.

    Speaking as one who, back in the days, used to be able to play Atari games until the scoreboard rolled over to zero. Eventually it became a matter of how long I could hold off bodily functions, and whether I could run to the bathroom and back without losing all my reserve lives.
  • You can be sure there won't be a Linux version. It is really a shame that an innovative concept like this is pigeon-holed by the worst common denominator.

    Why is it that right brained thinkers, designers and artistic types don't seem to care about whether everyone will be able to experience their creation? Is it just the path of least resistance?
  • Played it at Entros (Score:5, Interesting)

    by steveha ( 103154 ) on Friday May 30, 2003 @10:32PM (#6082571) Homepage
    Used to be, there was this cool place in Seattle called Entros. For a while there was one in San Francisco [salon.com], too. Now they are gone, with no trace save a "demo" web site [brazildg.com].

    It was a restaurant/bar that had about five entertainment areas around it. The entertainment areas were always cool and different.

    The most famous was "Interface", where one person wears a blindfold and a camera, and the other person sits in front of a screen watching what the camera sees; using two-way radio, the second guy tells the first guy where to go and what to do. "Go left, step forward, reach down, no, left, no, LEFT, feel for the ball, YOU TOUCHED IT! GO BACK!" Within a set period of time you had to accomplish certain tasks. If you got them all done, you were allowed to enter the victory lounge. I never got to see that lounge...

    Anyway, they had a sort of game show where you had to compete to see who was the calmest. They would hook up the players to biofeedback, and then they would do various things to try to shake the players' calm. For the winner, it played a recorded voice saying something like "YOU ARE THE BUDDHA".

    I miss Entros.

    steveha
  • Does it work with Mozilla?

    I mean, I hear the audio of "This is Chris Bailey..." Then, nothing. Very Zen.
  • I recall playing with a Rs-232 interfaced biofeedback system in the early 90s. The sample app was a skiing race game.

    We were investigating it for hands free operation of some soldier mounted equipment, but determined it was too distracting, and wouldn't work well in combat situations (duh!).
  • What Id like to know is what the hell happens if you get biofeedback spyware?

    You could have software which advertises products and then measures your unconcious reactions to see if you are affected. Its like the most sophisticated market research validation tool ever.

    On the other hand it would be cool......

    WHAT IF MY COMPUTER TELLS THE POLICE IM STONED????

The computer is to the information industry roughly what the central power station is to the electrical industry. -- Peter Drucker

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