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Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

Multi-User Dungeon Pioneer Interviewed 23

Posted by simoniker from the single-user-cellar-pioneer-snubbed dept.
Thanks to Stratics for posting an interview with Richard Bartle, the co-creator of the original text-based multi-user dungeon (MUD) environment. This chat with Bartle, who is also renowned for writing Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades: Players Who Suit MUDs, an early exploration of the effects of PKing (player killing) on virtual worlds, discusses the current crop of MMORPGs and their likely longevity: "Sooner or later a major world WILL be closed down, but I think they are far more stable then many players realise." Bartle's website also contains a treasure trove of early writings on MUDs, both by Bartle himself and other pioneers, and it's interesting to contrast this new interview with a 1995-era interview with Bartle, in which he foreshadows this new era of graphical MMORPGs.
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Multi-User Dungeon Pioneer Interviewed More

Multi-User Dungeon Pioneer Interviewed

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  • "HCSD" is good but ... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Friday June 13, 2003 @08:49AM (#6190234)
    I disagree with his assertion that a world "needs" PKs. I played UO for a number of years, and had a lot of friends leave precisely because of PKs. Guess what, getting killed was NOT fun for a lot people -- if a person is not having fun, the game is not a good one.

    • Re:"HCSD" is good but ... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Kevin Stevens ( 227724 ) <kevstev.gmail@com> on Friday June 13, 2003 @09:03AM (#6190357)
      I think a necessary component of allowing TK's is making the penalty for being killed not that onerous. It sucks to get killed and then lose a level, your equipment, etc, and then have to work your way back up. In addition, PK'ing needs to be tightly controlled, so some level 500 or so player doesnt prey upon some newbie. Confining it to specific areas and allowing it only within certain skill ranges is necessary. In general, it is best to let the noobs run around fighting NPC's, allowing only the higher level characters to kill each other- especially since they are more involved in the game and therefore better equipped to handle it- A player may have a vendetta against another player and use his social connections to seek revenge, and as long as it is all done 'in character' and somewhat maturely, it could add a great storyline to the game.

      • Re:"HCSD" is good but ... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by KDan ( 90353 )
        I disagree 100%. What's very important is to make absolutely certain that a player who's careful and quick enough can avoid being pk'ed - that there are no ways that you can be pk'ed without any warning. Ie, give every player a fair chance of getting out of it alive no matter how good the pk'er is.

        However, making the pk onerous is a requirement for there to be pk's at all! For instance, in Diablo 2 (not hardcore mode though) there is no pkilling. It's all a joke, because you don't lose anything except a l
        • I used to play (and admin) a similar MUD, well it was not similar to much.. no scroll of recall or such (it had its own engine).. anyway, the similarities was that there was not many levels and if you died, you fell hard.. a lot of exp and all your belongings etc... And you could PK everyone without any restrictions from the game itself, the admins might be a bit grumpy about it though... Anyway, the problem as I see it with PK is that all it takes is one asshole to ruin it for everyone, one disgruntled per
      • I've always wondered how successful a game might be that went in the other direction, such as in HC mode in Diablo II. Your character dies, and that's it, no matter what level you were. Because it would apply to not only the people being PK'ed, but those doing the PK'ing, also.

        After all, how many players would take all the time to develop a strong character to PK people when they can lose it quickly? After all, you kill a couple players, get the rep for being a PK, and get hunted down and killed yoursel
      • I like the idea of confining PKing to specific zones.

        I played on a mud for a long time, and there was a specific zone I frequented because of the relatively easy kills but great XP I got. After a certain level though, you weren't allowed to enter the zone again because the kills were much too easy with higher level EQ (well, that and the stats). It worked well though because everyone got to play there once and it was no big deal. Keep in mind the zone was PK-able, but only to a certain range of levels (t

    • Re:"HCSD" is good but ... (Score:5, Informative)

      by kulmala ( 3852 ) on Friday June 13, 2003 @09:05AM (#6190377) Homepage

      I disagree with his assertion that a world "needs" PKs.

      In the interview, Bartle claims he has made no such assertion:

      [People] seem to know me for [...] writing a paper, "Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades: Players who Suit MUDs," where I advocate PKing. I did write the paper, but I don't advocate PKing in it; rather, I explain what effects of having (or not having) PKers are on virtual worlds, so designers can anticipate the problems associated with their preferred approach.


      And, in HCDS itself, Bartle writes:

      As mentioned earlier, this paper is not intended to promote any one particular style of MUD.


      FWIW, I don't detect any strong pro-PK bias in HCDS. (Back when I used to MUD, I myself disliked PKing.)

    • Re:"HCSD" is good but ... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by (trb001) ( 224998 ) on Friday June 13, 2003 @10:31AM (#6191153) Homepage
      Most of the time, when people say that PKing is needed, I would agree with this caveat...PKing is one of many different ways to play a game. Exploration, questing, building, these are all important too. PKers are important, IMHO, because they add and indeterminate amount of danger to a world.

      Imagine a world with no PKing...what mortal dangers does your character really face. It's not a real world simulation if you can't kill each other. Now, as many have pointed out, your typical PKer would walk into a room with you, slay you, and be headed off to the next room to kill your buddy before you could type 'Ho there!'. Most players could probably be described as 'jackasses'. That doesn't mean, however they aren't necessary. What is necessary is a way to curtail the behavior so that, just as in the real world, there are consequences for your actions. If you kill another player that happens to be good alignment, I would imagine the local authorities aren't going to like you. As with the real world, you best make sure you can handle the authorities and the gangs of do-gooders that will come around looking to snag the price on your head.

      I do think PKing is essential...I don't a game should promote ONLY PKing (a lot of MUDs advertised for that, and I failed to see how they kept a user base).

      --trb
    • I'd say with some six billion people on this planet, there are bound to be some who: A) only will play a game with PKing in it, B) will play games that have it, but would prefer to be able to avoid it, and C) will only play games with no PKing (or a switch where they can "opt out" of it). My assertion would be that category A contains the fewest humans (most of them "hard core gamers"), B has more, and the majority of the human race falls into category C. The most popular multiplayer games online by shee
    • I think MUDs do, maybe not MMOGs. It seems (mind that I'm not an MMOG player, hate the damn things) that people playing in MMOGs get MORE connected to their characters and such than in MUDs. Also people in MMOGs seem to take the game more seriously than MUDers did. Maybe this is a generational thing, or a "time spent gaming" thing. People who start online gaming with MMOGs didn't participate in the PK laden atmosphere of most MUDs, so take it as a personal affront, and don't have the practiced patience

  • Odd (Score:2, Interesting)

    by DumbWhiteGuy777 ( 654327 )
    That was kind of an odd interview. He kept giving weird answers. I also would've expected him to really be playing more games, since he's famous for making the first MUD. I thought he would've been one of the huge MMORPG people.

    • Re:Odd (Score:2)

      by KDan ( 90353 )
      He's probably got more interesting stuff to do these days. Can't blame him for not investing 5 hours a day playing utterly pointless (if fun) computer games...

      Daniel

  • Best Bartle Quotes (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Demona ( 7994 ) * on Friday June 13, 2003 @09:02AM (#6190341) Homepage
    From "Interactive Multi-User Computer Games", Dec. 1990:

    Running a MUA is not simply a case of mounting a game on a computer and inviting all-comers to play. MUAs arouse such emotions in their players that they will often resort to lying, cheating and vitriolic abuse to achieve whatever goals they have set themselves.
    MUAs which are played mainly by teenagers are more likely to be violent and acrimonious than those played mainly by adults in their thirties.
    Top-heavy games are hard to deal with, because once players have reached wiz level it is often impossible to remove them without causing even worse problems.
    ...almost every MUA has its prophets of doom who will tell anyone willing to listen that the game has gone downhill since the "fun" days of yesteryear, and it's only a matter of time before it keels over. Reviewers who are talking to players should be ready to hear this kind of morose rambling, and only give it credit if it is substantiated in talks with others.

  • forever (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If UO were to be shut down, I expect that player run shards could last nearly forever. I don't know about some of these other MMORPGs ability to be run off server emulators, but as long as someone out there wants and has the ability to run a server, the game can't really die.

    For example, back in 1995 Fujitsu launched what was would have, at the time, been called a "virtual world." More like the whole Snow Crash thing than an actual game. I seem to forget the names of several 3D virtual worlds that were lau

    • Re:forever (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Doctor Cat ( 676482 )
      and a little support from the developer

      That's really the key phrase for me in the above comments. I think in general, when the control of the game is in the hands of a small company or group of people that did the project not only as a business venture, but as a labor of love, there's some chance of them trying to keep it going for more than a decade. (Though they may lose interest, focus, financial resources to do so, or get sucked into newer projects that pay the bills). I know Gemstone III is still

      • Re:forever (Score:2, Informative)

        by Psychochild ( 64124 )
        More recently, two of the original programmers of Meridian 59 got the rights back from 3DO, and seem to be doing ok so far, even fixing some old bugs and adding new features.

        Yep. We're located at http://www.meridian59.com/ [meridian59.com]. We're even working on a new rendering engine for the game.

        The trick is to stay small enough to be self-supporting until you can grow normally. I love Meridian, so we've taken steps to make sure it'll be around for a long time. :)

        My thoughts,

        Brian "Psychochild" Green

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday June 13, 2003 @11:02AM (#6191458)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Linux Journal interview with Alan where his work on AberMUD basically gets creditted as why he got involved in Linux:
      http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?si d=5045

      Somewhat lame MUD Planet interview with Alan:
      http://www.mudplanet.org/interviews/index.p hp?p=al an_cox&t=Alan%20Cox
  • In addition to his excellent website, Bartle has also been doing a column at Skotos Articles [skotos.net] called Notes from the Dawn of Time [skotos.net].

    The column tends to be more technically focused then the other columns at Skotos, with topics including issues of mud text parsing, code inheritance and heirarchies in muds, methods of generating quests, etc.

    -- Herder of Cats

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