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XBox (Games) Entertainment Games

Modchip Designer Taunts Microsoft 56

Posted by simoniker from the nyah-nyah-nyaaah-nyah dept.
Thanks to Polygon for posting a follow-up to the article we ran about Australian Xbox modchip designers releasing their schematics to the public. They have a story quoting AussieChip creator Grant Sparks as subsequently saying "It would be a little disappointing if [Microsoft] couldn't sue me. You see, I'm quite happy for them to take us to court, I just want to see it happen under conditions where we win. In order for them to argue they have not agreed to the download conditions, they would have to acknowledge that click-through legal agreements are not valid - which is something that I think would be very funny to see Microsoft doing. There are many other reasons why people want to use a modchip, and only one of them is directly illegal. I'd be happy to stand up and explain that in court."
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Modchip Designer Taunts Microsoft More

Modchip Designer Taunts Microsoft

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  • I admire your courage (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fiftyvolts ( 642861 ) <mtoia.fiftyvolts@com> on Thursday July 03, 2003 @11:36PM (#6364811) Homepage Journal

    <RANT>

    Firstly I was going to moderate this topic, but being as there was only 2 comments (and they were about being the first post) were there. Common guys, is getting the first post all that great? I mean we an easily display in newest first order. Then your FP!!! will be LP!!!! :-P

    </RANT>

    Now to my point. I think this is the right kind of attitude towards mod chips. Keep at it until modders get their way. As pointed out above mod chips have plenty of other uses than the illegal ones, we've all heard the arguments before.

    What I am most interested is how MS will handle (cause you know they won't sit and take this) the catch-22 that has been set up here. I'm sure they will try and down play it, but its sure to come up. I predict that MS will try to "steamroll" this poor guy into legal oblivion :-(

    Ah well information wants to be free so even if this falls apart there will be more mod chips to be had in the future.

    • Re:I admire your courage (Score:4, Interesting)

      by jayoyayo ( 650349 ) <justin@iraq4COMMAu.com minus punct> on Friday July 04, 2003 @01:27AM (#6365192)
      "What I am most interested is how MS will handle (cause you know they won't sit and take this)"

      I think Microsoft will do nothing and hope nobody notices outside the alpha-geek circles. This is common practice for a corporation when it recieves negative press. Search for xbox AND modchip on news.google and you're only going to see a handful of results-- Australian papers and geek.com... Thats great that this news made it to games.slashdot but it NEEDS to be on the slashdot main page. If it makes it to the front page it seriously has a chance of making it to more news 'sources'. If it generates enough press it could seriously create an impact.

  • I'm just waiting (Score:4, Insightful)

    by toddhunter ( 659837 ) on Thursday July 03, 2003 @11:41PM (#6364832)
    For a new contender to come into the console market. One that plays burnt disks out of the box, has an MP3 player, plays DVD's and burnt games.
    Would they just lose all their money to piracy? I doubt it very much. It would be rampant, but the popularity of the machine would far out-weigh this.
    Imagine if Microsoft allowed you to do all the things people are modding it for by default. I would buy one today.

    • Re:I'm just waiting (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 03, 2003 @11:47PM (#6364846)
      One that plays burnt disks out of the box, has an MP3 player, plays DVD's and burnt games.

      It's called "a computer." You are typing at one now.

      • Re:I'm just waiting (Score:5, Insightful)

        by toddhunter ( 659837 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @12:14AM (#6364947)
        Exactly, and an xbox is just a computer with the freedom sucked out of it. The computer of the future if you like.
        But even though a computer can do all those things, it's not the same as sitting on your couch and being able to relax properly whilst you do them. Give me that and I'll be happy.
    • And when you take your brilliant new contender to games developers, make sure you wear really thick pants.

      You'll need the pants to take the hit of the door in your arse on the way out.

      Sorry bud, but there's a lot more to marketing than just Freedom.
    • that is what palm did: sell the pda, and make the development tools free so that anyone can make a game... easy entry means zillions of apps, and more apps is a good thing... see also handspring, that made it's peripheral addon free to use, which made cool gps toys and the like more common, as the entry into the market was cheap!

      galette also did a famous campaign like this... "give the razors out for near free, and make your money selling blades"...or something like that. seems to be a good strategy...
    • I believe they called them "Dreamcasts". Can't play DVDs though.
  • I think the best part is that MS cant get the design without agreeing to the license! Or they can spend a few million dollars to convince a judge that click through licenses arent binding and we are all happy!

  • Idiot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 03, 2003 @11:50PM (#6364860)
    This guy is about to get an education in law the painful and expensive way.

    How many examples does it take to pound through some peoples' heads that it doesn't matter if what you're doing is actually logically technically illegal. Corporate lawyers and PR people can convince non-technical judges and jurries that just about anything they don't really understand is illegal.

    They have unlimited budgets, pannels of payed experts, focus groups and statistical research firms.
    You have jack shit.

    • Re:Idiot (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Daetrin ( 576516 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @12:08AM (#6364929)
      Wouldn't Microsoft have to challenge them in an Australian court, where they've already been beat at least once before on this issue?
    • That kind of law exists mainly in the land of the freaks, home of the obese. In the civilized world, most courts makes the right decisions.

    • They have unlimited budgets, pannels of payed experts, focus groups and statistical research firms. You have jack shit.

      I'll tell you what he has. He has the ability to whatever the hell he wants with hardware he legally bought. If I buy an Xbox I have a legal right to do whatever the hell I want with it. If I want to wipe its OS and throw Linux on it, I can do that. Microsoft trying to tell you what you can and cannot do with hardware you legally buy is quite frankly absurd.

      Example: if I buy an IBM compu

  • New XBOX vulnerability (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 03, 2003 @11:55PM (#6364880)
    This vulnerability [neohapsis.com] was posted a couple hours ago on VulnWatch [vulnwatch.org]. Here's the summary:

    Advisory: XBOX Dashboard local vulnerability
    Release Date: 2003/07/04
    Last Modified: 2003/07/04
    Author: Stefan Esser [se@nopiracy.de]

    Application: Microsoft XBOX Dashboard (up to today)
    Severity: A vulnerability within the XBOX Dashboard allows to totally compromise the security features of the XBOX.
    Risk: Critical
    Vendor Status: Vendor is not willing to talk about XBOX vulnerabilities.

  • whatever you're smoking, i want some! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by larry bagina ( 561269 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @12:10AM (#6364934) Journal
    It would be a little disappointing if [Microsoft] couldn't sue me. You see, I'm quite happy for them to take us to court, I just want to see it happen under conditions where we win. In order for them to argue they have not agreed to the download conditions, they would have to acknowledge that click-through legal agreements are not valid - which is something that I think would be very funny to see Microsoft doing.

    He reminds me of the warez sites that have a "disclaimer" to the effect that feds, police, fbi, etc are prohibited from browsing or downloading. I wonder if they really believe that works.

    • The difference here, though, is that Microsoft uses similar things themselves - EULAs, agreements prior to downloading things off Microsoft.com, etc.

      If Microsoft says that the click-through "license" isn't valid, they open up their own similar licenses to the same thing.
    • This is much different. Yes, those warez disclaimers are bullshit. That's because they're essentially a licence term ("You will not download this if you're a Fed") imposed by someone (l33t w4rez kiddie) on a work that he is not the copyright owner of (Adobe Photoshop or whatnot). You can't impose terms on intellectual property that you don't own. In this modchip case, the person who made the modchip is imposing terms on his own IP: the design of the modchip that he created. IANAL, but it seems just as legal to say "Feds can't download this software that I made" as it does to say "You can't reverse-engineer this software that I made". Now, in the real world, Microsoft's lawyers will find some technicality and sue the hell out of the poor guy. But, in principle, he's allowed to do this to his own IP.
      • But until they actually download (in your example) Photoshop's intellectual property, they don't know for sure that it /is/ Photoshop's property, and not the site owner's. That is, they're agreeing to a click-through license in bad faith, with full intention of breaking it. The fact that the other side happens to break it also does not change the fact that the Fed decided to ignore it, does it?

    • Isn't a "disclaimer" like that actually restricting access to the host computer and not to any specific items contained on it? I would think that could be restricted. It's a technicality I know but that's about right for this discussion.

      Ravi

      Not A Lawyer

  • My thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RCAMVideogames ( 653705 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @12:41AM (#6365054)
    I am a commercial game developer, money I make is through sales of games. I think Linux is dandy, yet I find myself using MS products for obvious reasons. Consoles can't be open for anyone to develop on, for the companies such as MS could not afford to produce them, they would not make any money from licencing. Sadly the issue here is quite different. This is about people pirating games. I am all for Mod-Chips that don't allow people to pirate games, such as the Cromwell Linux bios. This guy is selling ModChips that are being used for illegal purposes, thats the beef I and the rest of the game industry have with it. He is making a few bucks and the industry is losing thousands, not a wonderful trade off. Enough said.

    • Re:My thoughts... (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      what if the mod chip provided such an advantage to the consumer that xbox sales went up, and thus peripherally more of your game was bought?

      • WHAT advantage? (Score:1, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        mod chip provided such an advantage to the consumer

        WHAT advantages?

        The ability to copy games?
        The ability to cheat online and ruin the game for everyone else?
        The ability to run an OS on a system that was never designed for it?

        Face it - the first two are immoral, the last two are stupid. A $200 computer is going to run Linux way better than an Xbox ever will. The most popular use of mod chips is to RUN ILLEGAL COPIES OF GAMES.

        As a gamer, I sympathise with those wanting to make backup copies of their game

        • Re:WHAT advantage? (Score:1, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          I know two types of people who own an xbox.

          People who have modded it and love it: they can play emulated games, upgrade the hd, play mp3s, divx movies xbox movies, ftp content from their pc to the xbox.

          People who haven't modded it and hate it: there are too few games for it.

          Create a better box, more people will buy. How popular was the Apple with its tightly controlled applications and limited hardware? How popular was the PC with its loose hardware, nonexistant software controls?

    • Re:My thoughts... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      While I appreciate your profession, I can't see how you aren't trolling.

      Console's can't be open for anyone to develop on???

      WTF, computers shouldn't open for anyone to develop on either?

      Create something new and entertaining..I mean INNOVATE something new and entertaining and we might all have to rush out and buy it.

      This "Hey, I program for the XBOX and your mod-chips fuck up my life" attitude is bullshit.

      • The R&D and hardware costs that go into the development of a console are exhorbitant. Then the consoles are usually sold with little or no profit margin in order to achieve market penetration into the homes of general consumers (not bleeding edge early adopters).

        In order to recoup these costs the manufacturers allow developers to create games for those systems for a share of the profits. This requires contractual agreements. So not everybody can make games for consoles because they can't make a good en
    • And

      I am all for firearms that won't shoot the innocent
      Beer that tastes great and is less filling
      Women that are loving but don't speak

      And a world where all pirated movies, software, and music are really sales that would have been made at full retail.

      Oddly enough none of these things exist.
    • What I want to know is how many people own an XBox and don't own a computer? I'd bet it's very few. So what if you couldn't make games for the XBox if the Xbox disappeared - you still have that whole PC market to go after, which is really very large.

      • Re:My thoughts... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by chiavelli ( 681142 )
        Have you ever looked at a sales chart? Most top seller lists don't include a single PC game. PC developers have to produce a masterpiece to outsell even poor console games.
    • Yes, at present time you make money from selling games. That doesn't give you any moral right to live on selling games in the same way for the rest of your life.

      If consolemakers wan't to practically give away consoles, that's fine. They don't have any right to make profit, giving things away, though.

      Unfortunatly it looks like you're side is winning, and all aspects of fair use is being bought out of the law, as we're speaking.

      You might make me a communist, but I belive in the right of possesion.

  • Lord Britsh (Score:5, Funny)

    by IanBevan ( 213109 ) * on Friday July 04, 2003 @12:58AM (#6365113) Homepage
    This guy reminds me of Lord British.

    "You can't kill me, you can't kill me, you can't k..."

  • Being a Jerk Gets Press - News at 11 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Babbster ( 107076 ) <aaronbabb@NoSPaM.gmail.com> on Friday July 04, 2003 @01:14AM (#6365156) Homepage
    I'd identify a lot more with the guy quoted if he was making an effort to design his modchip so that it CAN'T play pirated games while still retaining the ability to boot Linux and play import games, something I'm sure is possible. As it is, the only reason he's thumping his chest and thumbing his nose at Microsoft is because he has the [probably reasonable] belief that Microsoft can't touch him while he's protected by Australian law. That earns him no more respect from me than would a punk calling me names on the street while hiding behind his buddy, Mike Tyson.

    • Re:Being a Jerk Gets Press - News at 11 (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 04, 2003 @04:24AM (#6365814)
      The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has ruled that modchips are perfectly legal. So, his belief that he is protected by Austalian law is certainly reasonable.

      So, all he is saying is: "Stop making vague threats and actually sue me, Microsoft", because he knows that if they do, they won't have a leg to stand on.

      He's not hiding behind Australian law, he's simply saying that Microsoft's allegations about modchips being illegal is FUD - and he wants to get the matter settled once and for all, so that modchip users and designers in Australia can stop fearing Microsoft's bullying tactics.

      If Microsoft took him to court, and he won, it would be perfectly reasonable for a LikSang style company to open in Australia and trade without fear of prosecution.

  • time flows like a river, and history repeats.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by deleted_soul ( 181808 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @07:59AM (#6366340) Homepage
    Only a fool would be for some telling you what you can and cannot do with something you own. Once a product is purchased it is 'yours'. How would you like it if I sold you some food but placed limits on its digestion or preparation? Would you be for me selling your grandfather a pacemaker and then deciding that it shouldn't be used by people over a certain age and remotely turning it off? How about me selling you a bottle of water and then suing you after its used to put out a small fire you created. If I was in court telling you it is not to be used to put out fires, that you should use another brand for that... You would call me crazy. GOD didn't create this planet so you could later copyright its fruits. Corporate Lawyers will be suing him next for defective gene sequencing. If you don't like the way something might be used then don't create anything or don't sell it to people its just that simple. As humans we change anything we come in contact with, Deal with it. Modding a (insert game system here) is not going to kill anybody. It is your entertainment system and you should be able to enjoy it however you see fit.

    The way I see it is I spent part of the limited time I have on this earth earning the money to buy your POS system or games, learning how to program, disassemble, repair, or have to go back to return said system. Can you give me my time or energy back? I didn't think so. People always say time is money. What makes my time worth any less in this scenario?

    Keep playing games with copyrights people and you will eventually be trapped in the web you weave. Are you ready to kill for your patent on mashing a button on a controller, buying something from a store or downloading/copying a CD? Oh! Sorry! A corporate ideal is always worth more than one persons life.

    Reading stupid crap stories like this makes me tired.

  • Crackers, do your work. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SN74S181 ( 581549 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @08:58AM (#6366542)
    What I want is not schematics for the mod chip insertion, not the 'X Box Secrets' that the mod chips manipulate.

    What I want is for crackers to start reverse engineering and releasing the code in the mod chips. I see no reason why we should buy mod chips from mod chip vendors. I have a PIC chip programmer and I could rig up an EEPROM programmer from existing known circuits. Let's liberate this knowledge from the mod chip vendors. It wants to be free!
  • There are many other reasons why people want to use a modchip, and only one of them is directly illegal.
    Can't the same the be said about DeCSS? Look what happened with that..

  • other sites (Score:4, Informative)

    by Doodleman3 ( 409554 ) on Friday July 04, 2003 @04:40PM (#6368994)
    Shacknews
    http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/2 7288

    ZDnet Australia
    http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/securi ty/story/0, 2000048600,20275965-1,00.htm

    Penny-Arcade
    http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.p hp3?date=2003-06 -30

    Sorry guys and gals but I don't know how to make a link.

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