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Portables (Games) Entertainment Games

Nintendo Researchers Talk Next-Gen GBA 58

Posted by simoniker from the insert-blatant-speculation-here dept.
Thanks to an anonymous reader for pointing to TotalVideoGames.com's report that initial details of technology for Nintendo's GameBoy Advance successor have been revealed - specifically, the screen design for future Nintendo handhelds. According to the report, Takeshi Kiyuna of Nintendo discussed his research at a recent technology seminar, and "..it's expected that the screen will offer a resolution of [at least] 300x200, supporting a color palette of over 260,000." Additionally, "..comments made later in the seminar suggested that Nintendo were looking into the possibility of implementing an organic electroluminescent (EL) screen, which allows for superior definition screens that require lower power demands on the battery."
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Nintendo Researchers Talk Next-Gen GBA More

Nintendo Researchers Talk Next-Gen GBA

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  • Competiton (Score:3, Informative)

    by jnguy ( 683993 ) on Saturday July 05, 2003 @05:05PM (#6373848) Homepage
    Although the gameboy line of products from Nintendo is pretty good, a little competition can't hurt. Sony is now venturing into uncharted waters for them, and Nintendo now has to work a little harder to compete with the new handhelds that came/are coming out.

  • Optical or Cartridge media? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Daetrin ( 576516 ) on Saturday July 05, 2003 @05:39PM (#6373986)
    That's the big question i have about the GBA2 or whatever they choose to call it. The size and nature of the screen is really of secondary importance.

    Nintendo currently has a huge dominance in the handheld arena, in large part because of the huge number of games available due to backwards compatibility. However i'm worried that what we're looking at seems really similar to the end of the SNES era.

    For better or worse, i think Nintendo is eventually going to have to switch over to optical media, unless the PSP completly bombs, but even then i think it will just delay the inevitable.

    If the PSP maanges to get a foot in the door however due to a large amount of third party support, and Nintendo sticks with cartridge format, Nintendo is going to have set themselves up for a fall.

    They could continue to stubbornly stick to cartridge format, just like the N64, and they'll slowly see their share start to slip. (Not as quick as with teh N64, because backwards compatibility will still do them some good.) On the other hand, they could decide to follow Sony's lead and switch to an optical disk format, at which point they're going to get slammed because the second generation PSP will presumably be backwards compatible and have a huge library of PSP games to draw on, while the new Nintedo optical handheld will have just lost it's backwards compatibility with the previous cartridge games. Sit back and watch the PS2 vs Gamecube situation happen all over again.

    The second best solution to this problem that i can see is for Nintendo to switch over to optical disk format for the GBA2, but make sure that the disks are the same size as the Gamecube's disks. They'll be going head to head against the PSP, each with no backlog of playable games, but it will be better than waiting to make the switch. When the next generation comes out they'll hopefully have improved the design enough such that Gamecube games can be played on it directly. At that point the new GameBoy would have two large sets of games that it was backwards compatible with and hopefully crush the PSP.

    The _best_ solution would be to bite the bullet, and spend a lot of money and research figuring out a way to make a system that could play both cartridges and optical disks without costing a fortune. The physics would be simple, at least if they did the intelligent thing like Sony and packaged the optical media in pseudo-cartridges like 3.5 floppy disks. Make the slot wide enough to hold a cartridge the size of a GameCube disk, with a notch cut out of the "bottom" edge to fit a GBA or GB cartridge. The optical media reader would be in the "top", and the cartridge interface would be at the back.

    The complicated bit would be reducing the size and cost of having both types of hardware in the same machine.

    • Um.. I don't want my games skipping....
    • " On the other hand, they could decide to follow Sony's lead and switch to an optical disk format..."

      I hope not. The optical disc will not automatically yield better games. It will, however, create a more delicate, more expensive, and more battery hungry system that is not likely to fit in anybody's pocket.

      I don't think the PSP will do well. I'd like to be wrong, afterall it would mean competition for Nintendo, and that'd be good for all of us. However, there have been plenty of attempts to make a po
      • I don't feel that Sony can make this work. I'm having a seriously difficult time imagining that this device will be as small as an original Game Boy. If I found out that information's wrong, then I'll reevaluate my opinion.

        They claim it will cost about as much as the GBA. [totalvideogames.com] Obviously if it's as large as a GameCube it won't sell. However if it were say, 25% bigger than the original GBA, would you turn down a device that could play movies, music, and PSX games for the price of a Gameboy Advance just because

        • a device that could play movies, music, and PSX games

          Seeing as how the PSp uses UMD [ps3insider.com]s and not CDs, there is a near zero chance that it will play PSone games (not to mention the increased cost in supplying that backwards compatibility).

          (And yes, i'm simplifying the issue, but there is a strong correlation between 2D games vs. 3D games and cartridge format vs. optical format)

          Not really... there is just a correlation between 2D vs. 3D games and time, and a correlation between cartridge vs. optical

          • Seeing as how the PSp uses UMDs and not CDs, there is a near zero chance that it will play PSone games (not to mention the increased cost in supplying that backwards compatibility).

            First of all, i was speaking in generalized way about the type and quality of games for the system.

            Despite that however, i see no reason to assume 100% that it can't play PSX games. Given the large amount of research they've put into emulation for the PS2 (note that Sony has said that one of the reasons for the projected low

            • I can't save games on my original FF for the NES anymore.

              1) Open the cartridge
              2) Replace RAM battery.
              3) Save games like new.

              Worked fine for me on my NES copy of the original Zelda.
            • Ummm... maybe you aren't familiar with non RAM memories. I'm not sure if these carts use it or not, but they could be using some form of EEPROM. Which is what a memory card uses. It seems to me that a small amount of EEPROM in a gba cart would be inexpensive and last nearly forver (at least as long as the transistors hold out).

              But, that's just my electrical engineering knowledge talking. And once again, I've no idea if they do or don't use this system. Obviously the NES did not. These days, I'd say
          • Not really... there is just a correlation between 2D vs. 3D games and time, and a correlation between cartridge vs. optical media and time. Polygons became a viable option about the same time CD-ROMs did.

            There's often substance to correlations like this, but the relationship between polygons & CD-ROMs isn't one of them. 3D has one distinct timeline based on processor speed, while CD-ROMs have a completely different timeline based on advances in consumer-level hardware.
    • How about some sort of standard cartridge which then has an interface into some sort of external CD-ROM which can then play optical media

      Rus

      • This would completely not work. For one, it would be a costly extension. Can you imagine the work it would take to get that to interface properly? Also, it would be bulky. It would be pretty darn hard to get that to fit into a cartridge slot without wasting a lot of space. This would also make it ugly.

        Basically, it would be a better solution to have one slot for a cartridge and one for a mini-cd. And even this would be pretty stupid.

    • There's good reason to avoid optical (Score:5, Insightful)

      by xenocide2 ( 231786 ) on Saturday July 05, 2003 @07:21PM (#6374397) Homepage
      Discs are great at storing large amounts of data cheaply. However, there's plenty of feasible reasons to opt for cartriges.

      1)Bulk. With a optical disc you have a rotational engine, a laser reader, the disc itself, and some way of removing and inserting the disc. On the other hand, a cartrige only needs a bus connector.

      2)Laser. Adding a laser complicates the system, since many countrys have regulations on the usage and protection from lasers. For example, in the US, they must be completely contained for use in electonical devices.

      3)Batteries. Nintendo has repeatedly chosen longevity over performance. The longer batteries last the more likely your customers are to continue playing and maintain interest in your other game products. Optical media spins, thanks to a small engine. This rates among the largest consumers of power, just like regular hard drives. You can add in some hardware to help predict and cache the disc, and you can instruct developers on how to organize the disc so that latency and spin times are reduced, but hardware means more bulk and cost, and developers are typically focused on time to market and overhead costs (thus not likely to spend much effort reducing battery consumption).

      4) Current investments. Probably the most compelling reason for Nintendo to select cartridge format is a current investment in cartriges. Its become less of an issue with the investment in optical media they made with the gamecube. You might also consider backwards compatibility as a current investment, something which Nintendo should be wary to break. Every dollar Nintendo spends it plans to recoup from the consumer, which counts hardware costs and research and development fees. Believe it or not, Nintendo is making money from GBA sales alone. Its not as high margin as their software, but its still profit.

      5) Latency and throughput. Its a hard balancing act between load times and power consumption when you choose optical, and "Loading" screens are often a liability. The current GBA cartridge is designed to minimize latency and maximize throughput, without such a huge hit on power consumption. It takes like 4 cycles to give it an address, and every subsequent poll advances the address 1 while returning data.

      There seems to be a vocal yet very small group of people clamoring for 3d geometry and optical media, but honsetly, I don't think there's a need, or even much use. Camera issues have always been a liability rather than a feature; until developers can figure out how to make the camera emphasize rather than detract from the gameplay, I doubt it will see much popularity in the handheld.

      In a similar vain, optical media is best at storing large amounts of data, yet the demand for data is minimal. Successful portable games are designed to be fun at 5min+. If you've got at least five minutes, the game will be fun. The mario series with its short levels is excellent for this, and Nintendo has recognized this, by offering a save mechanism. If you're required to sit and watch a video for 3 minutes, that video better be fun. The other use for large amounts of storage space is 3d geometry and textures. Each polygon takes at least 9 numbers, probably more. And each polygon will need at least some sort of palleting, and probably a texture. Probably the largest problem with 3d is the small screen size. Until Nintendo ramps up the resolution, high quality textures are mostly irrelevant.

      More importantly, the GBA (and presumably successors) allready feature scaling and rotations that allow for reasonable 3d. Look at Golden Sun's battle presentation. Its completely turn based, but its an immediate cinematic hook. The camera system is dynamic and the characters and enemies look fine (compared to a SNES or PS1 polygon title).

      • Re:There's good reason to avoid optical (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Daetrin ( 576516 ) on Saturday July 05, 2003 @07:57PM (#6374564)
        All valid points, all possibly pointless in the face of faceless consumerdom. Nobody said "let's make/buy games on the N64 for the features the N64 does well, and same for the PSX," the developers said "Hey! The other guys have cheaper media so we make more money!" and the consumers said "Hey! You guys don't have [LATEST_COOL_FAD_FEATURE]"

        The PSX games had bad loading times, occasionaly skipped, didn't use 3D very well, and wasn't cheap when it first came out, but that didn't stop it from selling like hotcakes.

        I'd like to have faith that the average consumer wouldn't buy into the 3D hype without something to show for it a second time, but i'm too much of a cynic to convince myself of that. Why do you think things will go any differently if, effectively speaking, Sony puts a PSX handheld up against a N64 handheld? Nintendo will have a big backlog of old games going for them, but if Sony is smart they'll make it as simple as possible to port old PSX games to the PSP format, and they'll quickly build up a huge library.

    • Check out what the article had to say about the screen requirements alone:
      The emphasis appears to be mainly put upon the durability of the device, claiming that any screen technology should be able to be dropped safely from heights, be able to resist high temperatures and also survive rigorous motion tests.
      I'd imagine they'd want a media technology that is at least as durable as their screen, and optical just doesn't cut it.
    • Actually optical media is becoming a fairly feasible technology for portable equipment. Shake a gamecube while it's loading, you'll see. The new GameBoy system will undoubtedly be using either high capacity cartridges (100+ mB? N64 had 512 mB carts, but GBA carts are less than 10 so far) or disk media that could be anywhere from 200 to 1.8 gB. If they want to compete with the PSP; which will be a portable upgraded PSOne; they'll need to make a portable upgraded N64. If they don't, they'll quickly lose their
    • Nintendo probably wouldn't have to design a special notch for cartridges. Since the optical disks are read only, Nintendo would have to include some way to save games. Internal memory is probably a bad idea, so memory cards would be used. Just make sure that GBA cartridges can fit into the memory card slot. Or just use GBA cartridges as memory cards (if possible, I don't really know).
      • Since the optical disks are read only, Nintendo would have to include some way to save games. Internal memory is probably a bad idea, so memory cards would be used. Just make sure that GBA cartridges can fit into the memory card slot. Or just use GBA cartridges as memory cards (if possible, I don't really know).

        That's a really good idea! That would probably make the memory cards a little bigger than necessary, but it would probably save space overall.

        I don't think you could actually use cartridge games a

    • Or you could just put the optical media in a caddy the same size as the cartridge.

  • Sound (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jerf ( 17166 ) on Saturday July 05, 2003 @06:01PM (#6374057) Journal
    Personally, I'm most interested in the sound department. The GameBoy Advance's sound capabilities were underpowered, even by the standards of the time. Even Sonic Advance 2 (fairly recent) has the sound effects stomping on the music.

    I'm hoping that they get something up to at least a wavetable type of sound with some decent number of channels. And panning that has something between "hard left", "hard right", and "dead center". And maybe a few effects tossed in... doesn't have to be some sort of full EAX, but you know, some cheap chorusing or reverb.

    Both graphics and sound quality are asymptomptic curves to increase quality; the GBA is doing pretty well for its screen size in the graphics department, even in 3D now (it's never going to look like a Playstation 1 at that resolution), but the sound quality is so early 1990's. Giving the sound system 10 or 20 times the power of the GBA would really add a lot to the system, IMHO.
    • The chip in the GBA is 8-bit, and requires you do a lot more with software mixing before handing it off to the sound DSP. This is why most of the GBA titles sound like ass, even though there are a few that sound great. Those that do sound great are still limited by the fact that it uses 8-bit sound sampling, which is why games like Metroid Fusion are a joke (auditory wise) compared to master pieces like Super Metroid.

      Nintendo was hoping developers would use the amazing ARM CPU to do wicked sound processi

  • Next Gen GBA to-do list (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mupp252 ( 263650 ) on Saturday July 05, 2003 @06:03PM (#6374064)
    1. Keep the backlight. (Unless you want people hacking your systems again.)

    2. Add more buttons.

    And.. umm... that's about all I can think of.

    • Keep the back-light? (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Sorry, Nintendo doesn't make a back-lit GBA. The GBA SP is technically front-lit, and it shows. If you want to see how crisp a back-lit handheld system looks, pick up something like a GameGear, and marvel at the difference... ...then curse at yourself for picking up something that chews through 6 batteries faster than a FRIST POST! troll can refresh /. =P

      Definately agree with you on the buttons though.
    • The article implies that the screen will be OLED. If it is, a frontlight (the Afterburner/ GBA Special lighting system) will be completely unnecessary.
    • 3. Put the damned headphone jack back in, you crazy Redmond-infected folk! :)
  • I predict that its spiritual successor will be Nokia's new handheld gaming device + cell phone, the N-gage [n-gage.com]... although I guess no matter who wins, it'll be the "Big N", hehe
  • I would see this as the biggest limiter as far as technology goes. if they decide to play the cartrige game again, they'11 screw themselves as badly as they did on the N64 against a Sony PSP sporting mini DVD technology.
    • Would you rather have optical media. or would you rather have something that won't get crushed in your backpack?

      We're talking about handhelds here, not consoles. The mere fact that Nintendo has owned the market for over a decade should tell you that this is an entirely different ball game. You can't try to draw analogies to the console market, unless you want to be as wrong has many of Game Boy's competitors have been.

    • Time to buy a clue--
      Cartrige = limited media at higher cost.
      MiniDVD = Massive Media storage at little cost.

      It holds true on the console, and it holds true on handhelds. If both systems have equal processing power, which is more likely to have the better games? The one with the higher/cheaper storage values simply becuse more audio/video/textures/etc can be fit on it.

      And THAT was my point. If Nintendo takes another cartrige format against a disk format, they might as well kiss it goodbye like they did the
  • What about all the rumors of wifi implementation and wireless connectivity in in a GameBoy? Bluetooth adapters are getting cheaper all the time and how hot would it be if I could get my Pokemon battle just be seeing the WAN (a la Apple's fabulous Rendezvous) The progression of the screen has been a staple in the GameBoy evolution but thats more or less the only major change for the past 15 years or so. Sure color screens and backlit count for something but this is NINTENDO, why not give us something that'll
  • IMHO, Sony completely BLEW it by not using MiniDiscs for their upcoming portable. They're small, have shells... perfect for the type of thing they're attempting to do... small & portable optical.

    Nintendo should go with an optical format much like MD.
    • They're using Universal Media Disks, which are actually the same size (if not SMALLER) than mini-disks, and they also have shells. Not only that, but they have 7 times the capacity of normal mini-disks. The PSP will even support Mini-Disk sound formats for superior sound quality in small packages (1/5 the size of an MP3 with the same quality).
  • If they make the screen 320x240 (rather than 300x200) just think of all the old crap that would be trivial to port. I bet the talentless games company executives are salavating at the idea of using cheaper factory-floor labour to convert old IP rather than the higher-paid and annoying talented designers.

  • God damnit... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AlexMax2742 ( 602517 ) on Monday July 07, 2003 @07:35AM (#6382179)
    I JUST got my GBA SP, and they are ALREADY coming out with a new GBA.

    :cries:

    Still, I honestly beleive that the GBA SP has a LOT of untapped life still left in it. Look at how long they supported the 8 bit line of Game Boy's and all the stuff coming out of it right up until the GBA came out.

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