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Games Entertainment

Videogames, Learning, And Literacy 247

Posted by simoniker from the i-kan-spel-gouranga dept.
Thanks to an anonymous reader for pointing to a GameZone.com article interviewing Professor James Paul Gee, the author of a new book advocating videogames as a learning tool. According to Gee, "It dawned on me that good games were learning machines... Many of these [game-contained] principles could be used in schools to get kids to learn things like science, but, too often today schools are returning to skill-and-drill and multiple-choice tests that kill deep learning." He goes on to reference "good learning principles" built into games like System Shock 2, Rise of Nations, and Arcanum, and advocates early gaming for learning: "In my view - and I know it is controversial - kids should be playing games from early on, from three years old, say."
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Videogames, Learning, And Literacy More

Videogames, Learning, And Literacy

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  • Hmmmmm... (Score:2, Funny)

    by canning ( 228134 )
    I wonder if he'd adopt me?

  • about time someone recognized (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ianmalcm ( 591345 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:02AM (#6389288)
    video games have always been helpful in the development process. I remember in grade school that all the "smart" kids owned NES or PC games. Theres been a couple studies recently supporting this theory.

    unfortunately games are becoming like the movie industry, only the big titles with big budgets make it on store shelves. Hopefully novel gaming wont go the way of the Bruckheimer.

    • video games have always been helpful in the development process

      Of course. Not only do they encourage hand-eye coordination, they also encourage important skills like pattern recognition (play any Mega Man game and you'll see what I mean) and innovative thinking (I could list a whole slew of games here...any strategy game, various Zelda games...in fact, any well made game will require you to innovate and adapt in order to progress through its levels.).
      • "Of course. Not only do they encourage hand-eye coordination, they also encourage important skills like pattern recognition (play any Mega Man game and you'll see what I mean) and innovative thinking (I could list a whole slew of games here...any strategy game, various Zelda games...in fact, any well made game will require you to innovate and adapt in order to progress through its levels.)."

        Absolutely.

        And additionally: Abstract thought that arises from complex strategic thinking. I expect that all peopl

    • Re:about time someone recognized (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Moridineas ( 213502 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:35AM (#6389373) Journal

      I remember in grade school that all the "smart" kids owned NES or PC games.



      Possibly because all the families that had enough money to buy these toys were generally better off families. Families that are generally better off generally have parents who are smarter and more high energy. These are exactly the same kind of parents that are more likely to work with kids, talking, encouraging them to read, reading to them, etc from a very young age.

      • Possibly because all the families that had enough money to buy these toys were generally better off families...

        Not here. I studied in a lot of (poor) public Brazilian schools, and most "smart" kids were in the lowest social classes (including me).

        It's true that most of them played videogames (well, the boys, at least), but around here we generally play older systems wich are cheap; for example, the first Playstation is still the most popular console.

  • Learning games (Score:5, Insightful)

    by luzrek ( 570886 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:05AM (#6389292) Journal
    Ok, now we need to answer the question of which games teach what.

    I would like to point out that his discussion of playing games "proactively," or thinking about the design of the games and how they work. From that point of view, just about any game, played that way, should teach some fundamental rules of logic.

    I actually have some trouble thinking of which "entertainment" games would be good for teaching individual facts. Several discuss how to make gunpowder (hardly what you want your kids to be doing), but most really screw up most of the fundamental science. Perhaps the best use of video games (also discussed in the article) would be to inspire children (and adults) to look stuff up. It's kind'a off topic, but I've read a lot about mythology since Stargate, SG1 started airing. Video games should be able to inspire similar interests.

    • Re:Learning games (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Some of the best games in regards to learning problem solving and logic would have to be the old adventure games. (KQ1, SQ1 etc) none of the point and click stuff, but actually require thought to even guess what was going on. The first time I had played KQ1 was at a very early age and feel it has still had a long lasting impression.

    • Re:Learning games (Score:2, Interesting)

      by JET 666 ( 28153 )
      i think the point is that video games can teach thinking skills, not facts. Nothing teaches facts better than boredom and a full set of encyclopedias.
      • I think you have the gist of it there. I don't really believe that Duke's look for the correct-colored keycard help me a lot early on but Myst did a lot for the think-out-of-the-box in my head.

        Yet I will never travel by putting my hand inside a book, will I?

        The thing is, it's the whole logic requiered to solve those puzzles that trigger some acual good thinking ... I think

        Then there is the fact that I work at a LAN gaming center, so I see pretty much every kind of gamer go trough the place, from the gee

    • Re:Learning games (Score:2, Informative)

      by Saeger ( 456549 )
      Ok, now we need to answer the question of which games teach what.

      A quickie list...

      • Hand/eye coordination: any FPS or racing sim
      • Logic/Problem solving: Lemmings, Tetris,
      • "Anti-social" socializing: IRCs "gimme ops!" game, The Sims, RPGs, ...
      • Coding: IRCs "scriptz", That old C-Robots game, ego contests
      • Capitalism 101: _$Latest_Sequel_ Tycoon, ...
      • Physics 101: Scorched Earth, Soda [sodaplay.com],
      • Dancing like a spaz: Dance Dance Revolution, EOL.
      • Boring facts: "Research" for /. posts, Trivia games, Google whacking (or whate
      • How about history and geography?

        I've learned quite a bit from newer games such as Medieval: Total War and older games such as Seven Cities of Gold (which wasn't geographically accurate, but had a lot of historically accurate information), as well as historical sims.

        Flight Simulators often have real world locations in them, and relative directions can be learned. Even combat flight sims often have real world locations.

        Simulators in general often have real world historical ships in them - the now fairly a

    • Re:Learning games (Score:2, Insightful)

      by golgotha007 ( 62687 )
      Ok, now we need to answer the question of which games teach what.

      one thing that I am sure most action games help with is peripheral vision.
      when you play Galaga, do don't stare at your ship while firing and moving, you typically stare at the center of the screen and let your periphery take care of the rest.

      I've played tons of action games as a kid (atari 2600, c-64) and my peripheral vision is incredible; I can take in most of my surroundings while looking straight ahead.
    • "actually have some trouble thinking of which "entertainment" games would be good for teaching individual facts. Several discuss how to make gunpowder (hardly what you want your kids to be doing)"

      Would you want your kids to make gunpower? Probably not.

      Would you want your kids to become interested in learning about chemistry? Yes.

      If they start talking about methods of how to make gunpower, then get them a chemistry set for their birthday. It's a lot safer than gunpower and they will probably learn s

  • Things I've learned from games (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Capt'n Hector ( 650760 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:06AM (#6389295)
    Civ II helped me learn the Cursus Honorum for Latin, and starcraft helped for middle school english vocabulary. Unreal tournament... well... not much from there.

    Also, sim city 2000 and myst were great in terms of general intelligence building. And don't forget the EV series! Now I know a bunch of major star systems. Bernard's Star here I come! Yes, it really does exist, however not all stars from fiction are real. I don't think fiddler's green exists.

    Anyhoo, a healthy dose of non first person shooter games can be good for the brain, and while those shooters certainly improve reflexes, the RSI, frazzled nerves and raised blood pressure of a good net match are hardly worth it.

    • Haha, the original EV games also teach you that an invincible space pirate named Captain Hector will hunt you down if you don't register your shareware within 30 days...Good times...

      Anyways, here in Cupertino, CA (courtesy of Apple Computer), we used plenty of video games in elementary school for learning purposes...Cross-Country USA and Cross-Country California for geography, Oregon Trail and Amazon Trail for history, Reader Rabbit and some others for English and other skills, and one other castle-based s
      • Anyways, here in Cupertino, CA (courtesy of Apple Computer), we used plenty of video games in elementary school for learning purposes.

        In my elementary school (so many years ago) our computer class consisted of playing Carmen Sandiego, Shufflepuck Cafe, SimEarth and SimCity.

        Good fun was had by all.

      • Re:Things I've learned from games (Score:5, Interesting)

        by silentbozo ( 542534 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:56AM (#6389409) Journal
        I played countless hours in elementary school playing Grammar Examiner on my old Apple IIc. That, coupled with a lot of reading, paid off in spades when I started writing for classes later in Junior High, not to mention all that standardized testing for English in conjunction with the SAT.

        However, I think trying to create a game is just as valuable as playing a well-written and educational one. Thinking up and writing down consistent rules, fine-tuning game play, imagining scenarios, researching details to make the game more realistic/interesting, and learning the programming (and debugging) skills necessary to implement your creation. That's what drove me to learn programming in the first place... though to this day, I have yet to code a full game. Well, one of these days.
    • Back when Tetris on the NES was new, I remember hearing my parents say that Tetris was good management training. Quick decision making while keeping a cool head, etc.

    • Some other noteworthy lessons...

      I learned how to jack a car from GTA3.

      How to fire a machine gun from Quake 2.

      How to run over pedestrians efficiently in Carmageddon.

    • the RSI, frazzled nerves and raised blood pressure of a good net match are hardly worth it.

      Sounds like excellent training to deal with cubicle work under tight deadlines and frustrating meetings with PHB's.
  • You know, the old school NES RPG game. I started out reading it slowly to make sure I got the whole thing and any possible clues as to what my quest was supposed to be. I guess I learned some things from it...

    People only say 1 of 3 possible sentences.

    Thou shalt now cross over the trees into that other land, for there are most largest beasts there to tear you apart.

    Seriously though, I guess you can easily learn problem solving, the try and try and try again principle, patience, extended mental focus/

  • Let me think... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by insecuritiez ( 606865 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:14AM (#6389317)
    In all the years I have spent playing games I can't think of much I've learned. I'm sure I would have learned more -- a lot more -- if the games were my only source of information, but reading and REAL LIFE covered 99% of any game long before I played the game. What kids should really be doing is reading and have parents that encourage and take part in teaching/learning.
    • Games have aided me in my thinking process... i think. I used to get horrible grades in 1st/2nd grade and right after I got my sega... my grades went up... a lot higher.

      There is no way any games can compete with books and some other forms of non-gaming literature because of the sheer amount of info they contain. If you can efficiently take in info from those sources then thats great. Some people forget... fortunately i'm not one of them :)
    • your looking at this too literally.
      From playing super mario through nes, snes, n64, gamecube I constantly kick myself for never looking at the bigger picture of the level, i tend to look towards route 1 to reach the goal, never looking around for easier or more interesting/exciting ways.
      Its this *adventurous/none conventional* approach towards games/work which IMO is the true benefit of playing games.
    • A big part of his point was that even though the games are really complex, people learn them, even kids who can't concentrate five minutes on a book. That means we could find good learning principles in the games.

  • Flight Sims... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hanzie ( 16075 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:15AM (#6389321)
    This reminds me of the F-22 test pilot on the discover channel talking about how the new kids who grew up with video games are unbelivably good at flying planes.

    Apparently flying a modern jet requires tracking lots of things at once and the gamer kids are pretty good at it.

    I also recall many pilots saying that the number one cause of crashes was pilots believing sensory input over guages, and how easy it was to fool your inner ear. I'd say this would be an advantage to vid game based learners, because gauges are all you have to rely on in a PC game. Further, I don't recall ever seeing a guage in a simulator program of any type that gave inaccurate info, ever.

    • Re:Flight Sims... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Saeger ( 456549 )
      kids who grew up with video games are unbelivably good at flying planes.

      and the kids who grew up programming video games will write the code that makes most planes pilotless; so who'll need those human Nintendo-pilots anyway? :)

      --

    • I've always wanted to learn to fly, and it looks like I'll finally have the opportunity in a year or two. I must have logged thousands of hours in flight sims over the years, including (at a rough guess) at least several hundred hours in FS98 where I was actually trying to do things 'right' in a Cessna (using real FAA Approach Templates and IFR/VOR and stuff).

      I'm very curious to know how much, if any, of my FS98 skillset will transfer over to flying a real Cessna. Certainly I have the principles of flight
      • Actually it carries over quite well. I have logged countless many hours in various versions of Flight Simulator, from the first version for DOS (green label with cream coloured text) to FS2002. In 1999, I was given the opportunity to fly a Cessna 172. Basically the "teaser" flight they give you in flight school prior to ground training. The instructor critiqued my skills, and was quite impressed with my overall confidence, handling, and trust in the technicality of flying over the tactile feel of flying. O

  • Language is where it's at (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:18AM (#6389328)
    When playing Grand Theft Auto III I got certain phrases on my mind("I kill you gringo!"). It occured to me that it might as well have a little wider repertoire of more useful phrases in some foreign language with optional subtitling, and I'd be able to pick up something while playing.

    Of course, even better would be a game with a lot more interaction, something like a Sierra-style adventure game.

    Actually, it's personal experience too, I learned quite a bit of English from 80s text adventures.

    • this reminds me of learning a little bit of German from Wolfenstein phrases before I ever had German or WWII history classes. Things like
      Mein Leben! (My life!)
      Scheutsteuffel (the SS)
      Aaaaaaaah! (Aaaaaaaah!)

      (hopefully I spelled those correctly)

      Even stuff like the letter to Eva Braun in the game identifies a historical figure, which for me, at least, was rewarding a few years later when I actually found out who that was. For that matter, having learned phrases in German, even not knowing what they meant, m

  • Answers the wrong question (Score:5, Interesting)

    by KNicolson ( 147698 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:20AM (#6389334) Homepage
    If you have a kid that doesn't want to learn in the classroom environment, but instead only wants to play games, then, yes, playing strategy, RPG or simulation games is better than just deathmatching Quake for hours on end.

    However, if you're wanting to teach that problem kid, there's surely better ways than sitting them in front of a computer with a stack of games.

    What's next, computer training by downloading pr0n - think about it - learn all about caching, searching for passwords, virus checking for trojan pr0n, proxies, ad blocking, ftp, IRC, KaZaA, etc. Excuse me, I must go now to write my book and get interviewed on GameZone...

    • Re:Answers the wrong question (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Nick_dm ( 580691 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @05:20AM (#6389556) Homepage
      I'm not convinced quake doesn't have good implications for brain use. If you look at it as a game where you "run around and shoot people" you may as well be watching some action movie. But a serious player will be doing a lot of things to keep track of what's going on in the game. For example;

      1) remembering spawn times for various items (eg. just picked up the armor, so I should return in 25 seconds to pick it up again) a good player should be able to do this for quite a lot of items at once (which won't always have the same gap between spawns)
      2) keeping track of your stats and team mates stats and locations,
      3) working out opponents possitions from audio cues, map/tactical knowledge, previous experience of playing the oponents.
      4) respond to team comunications, either voice comms or text, I've been playing for years and still can't absorb the infomation from a top clan using text comms when I'm watching a game, they can do that while playing (new instructions/information every .5 seconds)
      5) Some people will actually keep track of enemies ammo count (normally only in 1on1 games and with non-rapid fire weapons), listening out for explosions and such when the enemy is out of view.

      These aren't logical/reasoning skills for the most part, but being able to do this while running around and trying to concentrate on shooting people isn't easy, and is exactly the sort of multi-tasking skills that have been mentioned as the sort fighter pilots use. This also isn't some thing most people have naturally, but I think training your brain up to be able to deal with lots of information like that is useful.

      Anyway I think deathmatch games involve a lot more thinking than you might guess :)
      • "respond to team comunications, either voice comms or text, I've been playing for years and still can't absorb the infomation from a top clan using text comms when I'm watching a game, they can do that while playing (new instructions/information every .5 seconds) "

        That's because clans have macros for all these things. And they just have to see the line out of the corner of their eye to know which text macro the other person sent.

        What really surprises me is the macros they have. There's one I'll always

  • As a father of an almost 3 year old kid (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Advocadus Diaboli ( 323784 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:23AM (#6389341)
    I definitely say NO to this. Yes, I grew up in the good old VC-64 times and I played a lot, but that time I was already a teenager.

    In German we use the verb "begreifen" for the process of understanding something that you learn. That verb contains the "greifen" which means that you can grab something. And yes, I believe that kids of 3 years old learn the world by touching it and grabbing things and not by simulating the world on a TV monitor.

    And BTW, for my kid I found a sort of "catalyst" to make her learn. Its simple, cheap, runs without batteries and she enjoys it a lot: Books.

  • While he may be right about games being a learning tool, they can't teach everything. The problem with video games is that they often replace other sources of entertainment such as reading. In your opinion, what is more educational, a computer simulation or a book? Even if they were equal in this respect, most kids play more games than they read books, or they spend the time watching TV (something for the most part uneducational and mind-numbing).

    • Re:Everything in moderation (Score:4, Insightful)

      by fiontan ( 671239 ) <Troy.Laurin@gDALImail.com minus painter> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @04:10AM (#6389436)
      In your opinion, what is more educational, a computer simulation or a book?

      To rephrase the question (disclaimer: Probably violating the spirit of the parent poster), which is more educational, a Harry Potter novel or a Harry Potter computer/console game? The book teaches literacy through example, while the game (hopefully) teaches problem solving and hand-eye manipulation.

      A lot of older games used to cover the literacy front as well - adventure games in particular - but today's push for stunning graphics and voiceovers is removing that tendency. Conversely, the immersion factor is increased, so it is more like the player is actually doing things to some end, rather than asking (telling?) a character to do those same things.

      To revisit the book vs game question, I think that there's no good reason why the two should be exclusive. Rather, each should focus on its strengths, and refer to the other when weaker areas are encountered. Rather than having quizzes at the end of textbook chapters, have games included on a CD that requires knowledge (or perhaps even understanding, if the game designer is good enough?) of the chapter content to complete the next level... include a simple checkpoint system so the child is rewarded for getting through each chapter, and encouraged to move on to the next chapter. If chapters have a degree of non-linearity, then this can be reflected in non-linearity of the game plotline.

      Something like that would have had me rabid to get through my highschool textbooks, if decently implemented!

    • Re:Everything in moderation (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MrBandersnatch ( 544818 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @04:33AM (#6389477)
      My Kids (5 and 7) are AVID gamers. Railroad Tycoon II (History and Music), Sim City 4 (Literacy, numeracy and planning), Theme park world (Economics), Flight Simulator 4 (Geography), Robot Wars (Science) etc. etc with a good smattering of fluffy fun garbage (hand-eye co-ordination).

      They will hardly touch a book of their own volition but they have THE highest reading skills in their respective classes (in fact my 5 year old is outpacing my 7 year old gah!! ) because they WANTED to read what was going on in their games.

      Combine this with some good old-fashioned school education and some active parental involvement and I have some motivated kids who ENJOY learning about science, nature, mathematics etc. etc.

      So anyways - for younger children I personally believe that they have learned more from playing computers games (and watching television) than they have learned from books so far. That said they have learned a great deal more from their parents, teachers and peers than from games...because there really is NO replacement for teaching and good parenting.

      Oh one draw-back I should note - their handwriting absolutely sucks because they type everything *sigh*

  • A prescient pedagogical insight (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ebusinessmedia1 ( 561777 ) * on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:25AM (#6389350)
    This is a prescient interview. The market for gaming would explode if game publishers consciously took the time to embed learning scenarios into games.

    If this was done in a way that didn't seem pedantic; that didn't detract form the 'fun' or 'challenge' of the game; that permitted the player to branch to new experiences once certain 'pedagogic principles' were mastered; gaming would reach a new plateau - both in terms of cultural influence and sales. Every parent would run out and but a game console, no questions asked.

    This is the most compelling way to help people to "fail on the way to mastery".

    Imagine that a parent hears that little Suzy will do better in school (or on her SAT's) if she plays games that help her to learn the principles of elementary geometry, grammar, etc. as a part of playing the game, *without her consciously realizing it*. Clever game design could accomplish this. (Why isn't Wolfram Publishing authoring math game?)

    Of course, in many cases, conscious awareness that directed learning is taking place could also be permitted, as long as the game's design created stimulating scenarios that compel participation.

    This is really just the very beginning for games as learning tools. Years ago, in cognitive science seminars, it became clear that the best 'artificial' way we had to instill learning skills was through simulation. This is still true, and remain so for some time.

    Really, games are immersive, simulative, experiences. They will become more immersive, and sophisticated (in terms of simulation) as time goes on, processors get faster, broadband becomes a non-issue, and designers realize that learning can be fun.

    The future for this sort of thing is absolutely unlimited. In fact, there's no reason why serious simulations and models of very complex environments won't eventually be brought before very sophisticated learners (politicians, medical professionals, genetic designers, etc.) to help them "think through" potential consequences of their actions.

    Frankly, this is the most important pedagogical development in that last 100 years, if not longer. It will have import far into the future.
    • Frankly, this is the most important pedagogical development in that last 100 years, if not longer. It will have import far into the future.

      Ha, a bit of deja vu here. Wasn't that what they said when TV came out?

      Problem: I've played a lot of educational video games, and all of them were boring. It certainly would be cool if a game could unconsciously teach useful things, but in 20 years of gaming it has never been done, and I see no evidence that it's possible.

      E.g. I've played a platformer designed to

      • Strategy/logic games like Slay [windowsgames.co.uk] are excellent for teaching arithmetics. Arithmetic (and math in general) is an extremely useful thing later (and early) in life and it's a pity that so many people cannot master its secrets. For example, my sister (she is not considered stupid) had difficulties calculating 1+1 (when that was a part of the problem) and guessed that 2/2*2 might be 0. :) One of the Russian Ministers thought that when you fire 50% of people and spend the same amount on salaries, average wage will
    • Frankly, this is the most important pedagogical development in that last 100 years, if not longer. It will have import far into the future.

      It is not an original idea. It has been said many times before, since the 70's. But unfortunately, nothing will come of it.

  • Children have always learned from games. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by splerdu ( 187709 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:27AM (#6389354)
    Just about every learning activity that children indulge in is a game. Shape puzzles, lego, etc. Even with animals learning has always been a game.

    This makes you wonder why there is so much anti-videogame sentiment, and its sad that its only now that more people are looking seriously toward computer games for child learning.

    A friend recently got married and has their first child. Both parents have firmly ingrained computing habits, and hence the child has spent a lot of time in front of a monitor. At age 3, he knew how to operate the window's quicklaunch in order to get to media player (kid loves to watch stuff from Pixar, and they use the PC as a VCD/DVD player). Near age four, he could navigate most of the start menu. And the child isn't a geek either, he runs around much like any other and is a bit of a bully in school actually.
    • This makes you wonder why there is so much anti-videogame sentiment, and its sad that its only now that more people are looking seriously toward computer games for child learning.
      Even when I play myself, I have to have gibs and taunts turned off or my kids will be repeating the stuff all day long. It is a powerful learning tool--be careful what their learning!

  • Frogger (Score:2, Funny)

    by Rylfaeth ( 138910 )
    It's true! Didn't you ever see that Seinfeld where George had to play real-life Frogger to get his Frogger machine across a busy street before the battery that held his high score ran out?

    If only he had a little more practice..

    -Rylfaeth

  • Good (Score:4, Interesting)

    by lvdrproject ( 626577 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:29AM (#6389362) Homepage
    I think it's a great idea, personally. So many kids today are... like... i can't really put it any other way. Illiterate fucking idiots. Try joining Yahoo! Chat some time. I dare you. It's scary how bad it is. And the consensus is "Who cares, it's not important. I don't need to know anything about this". Maybe it's just Iowa, but, like, i'm going into twelfth grade next year, and there are actually a surprising number of kids that can't pronounce simple words like "consequences". Really.

    Those same kids, however, are very interested in TEH XBOZZZZ and all that. If you could somehow make education fun, like "Typing of the Dead", and things like that, i think it would work. The problem is, right now, that education games aren't fun. Not to most kids. Even the younger kids are being influenced by the older ones into thinking that anything that even remotely involves something other than porn or guns is bad. As such, i think i have a formula that may well be important to note in this instance:

    *breasts* + *violence* + * = FUN GAME

    Knowing this, i think we need to add more, like, shooting games and things to the educational genre. Quake III: Preposition Death Match. Dead or Alive Volleyball: XTREME Spelling Mastarz. Things like that.

    • You do realize you just burned through your week's allotment of commas in just one post, right?
    • "Maybe it's just Iowa, but, like, i'm going into twelfth grade next year, and there are actually a surprising number of kids that can't pronounce simple words like "consequences"."

      Honestly, I am more appalled at the number of kids that *can* pronounce the 'word' ROFLAMO.

      But seriously, I hear you. I am from the generation that was just on the leading edge of the 'net -- When I was in highschool, ICQ was still in the 5 million user range and the occasional person still asking 'what's the internet' or 'wh

  • PROs and CONs (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tibike77 ( 611880 ) <tibikegamez AT yahoo DOT com> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:30AM (#6389363) Journal
    YES, games CAN be good learning tools, but they also can be harmfull. It depends on the game. Almost "mindless" kill-em-all types of games seem to me as a waste of time as "educational tool" (one might argue "but they improve hand-eye coordination and... - and they would be right... but that's not education). Almost (and I repeat, almost) all games have SOMETHING that is good in them... even the crappy ones (oh well, make you realise that they are crap and help you build your own oppinions). PROBLEM is that not every type of game is good for "teaching" usefull things to the younger people... and the danger exists (in the nowadays MMOGs trend) that you will encounter vulgar language (which by itself, in small doses is not harmfull, but when in excess... no comment). What I want to say is... what happened to QUESTS (Lucasarts, oh where art thou), to REAL strategy games like "Gengis Khan", "Nether Earth"(that one's for Z80)... those were more than usefull, both entertaining and educative. The current "computer game industry" trend of "if more buy it it is good" and "more violence sells better" is a big problem. ___ As a "bottom line": IF it would be SCIENTIFICALLY proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for any dimwit (in the Congress or where they might be) that certain types of games ARE of educational value, it will be a major step forward.

    • Depends on your definition of mindless. My five year old daughter plays CtF in Unreal Tournament/UT 2003 and Jedi Knight 2 with me, and it's taught her a lot of 'intangibles;' acting under pressure, rapid data assimilation and application, basic tactics (both solo and team), resource management, decision making, and so on.

      Oh, and her reading comprehension is faster now, too.

  • Playing through the campaigns, you certainly find out a lot about history. Shame microsoft didn't pause to get their facts straight first though, as now there will be a whole generation of kids who think that Erik the Red found America from Greenland (when it was actually his son, Leif Erikson).

  • it's no joke! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by lingqi ( 577227 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:36AM (#6389374) Journal
    I am currently learning Japanese by playing Final Fantasy X-2. Maybe more "increasing the knowledge thereof" than "learning," but I do have the dictionary handy and would pause at instances where I don't understand and look up the word.

    It works wonders because

    1) it teaches you slang that's sometimes not in textbooks but people use often (must have good dictionary, however)
    2) you brush up listening comprehension
    3) you can pause the damn thing (try that with TV - well, one without TiVO and the likes)
    4) subtitle
    5) it provides a mental reference about the words, when I see "furikaeru" I would think to myself - ahh, Yuna says this in her final monologue and such and I can use the game scenario to remind me of the meaning; etc.

    So, games can definitely be a learning tool. In fact this the most fun I have had learning yet.

    Of course, as a friend puts it, an equally effective way may be to find a - ahem - sex toy who likes to talk during - ahem - activities. But looking up dictionary during such activities may be slightly inconvenient.

    • Re:it's no joke! (Score:2, Informative)

      by fiontan ( 671239 )

      There's a project in the works [lrnj.com] intending to teach (written) Japanese from scratch through a CRPG vehicle.

      I hope the owner manages to finish it... After completing the game, people could then progress to those Japanese CRPGs that were never translated!

      This perhaps becomes viable because of the volume of other Japanese-language games in the market... I'm not sure how well this general technique might apply to other languages, however.

    • I am currently learning Japanese by playing Final Fantasy X-2.

      ...

      Of course, as a friend puts it, an equally effective way may be to find a - ahem - sex toy who likes to talk during - ahem - activities.

      A while back, I came across this web page that teaches Japanese characters by rewarding you with a cartoon girl who removes clothing on correct answers. Wish I could find it again ;-)

    • I wasn't so much interested in Japanese language, but much of what I know about Japanese culture, I learned from hentai games. :) They also motivated me to travel to Japan and spend 3 weeks there. :) If I had to play these games in Japanese, I would definitely learn some. :)
    • I'm a third-year Computer Science student. Although my English is still far from perfect, it's good enough to read documentation, mailing lists and academic books.

      And I learned it from videogames, mostly SNES/PlayStation RPGs.

  • the *truth* from a user, from his mouth (Score:4, Insightful)

    by peculiarmethod ( 301094 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:40AM (#6389381) Journal
    ahem. hi, my name is p*something*, and i, too, was once addicted to video games. I started at the age of 6 when i got my hands on an early version of nintendo, 8 bits. i stood ground on every platform available to my mid-western-@ss, learning to program, hack, fix my gear.. i, because of a shear love for games, learned to program various languages, navigate and manipulate in serveral platforms, then versions, then chip set variants.. then came the short wave, then radio anten, wifi, war-driving, and all the meanwhile, i was enployed by companies who hired me due to knowledge of the technical world. - .. a world which will never leave us, so as long as the economy resides in modern western hands. (barring a miracle) so.. i should say from my experience, gaming can definitely lead one child to a situation of progessive learning curves, only mimited by his or her own imagination. please, mod parent down for bogaRTING.

    -P

  • Games and Learning (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tedrlord ( 95173 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @03:45AM (#6389390)
    "In my view - and I know it is controversial - kids should be playing games from early on, from three years old, say."

    Why the hell is this considered controversial? There's something horribly broken in the adult mind if playing games and learning are separated so badly. Why do people think kids have this urge to play anyway? Learning is the whole point! That's why they do it!

    Play is a natural technique for young people and animals to learn the skills they will need as adults. Social skills, survival skills, everything. Our brains are wired so that we play to learn and learn best while playing. It's as simple as that. If educators got this into their heads we would have a much better school system.

    • "Why the hell is this considered controversial?"

      Because videogames are the perceived evil for the youth of today, much as Elvis and the Beatles were for another generation. Hence, anything saying that they could be good for kids will be controversial.

  • The problem with video games... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @04:02AM (#6389418)

    This is presented as though it is original thought, but it really isn't. There is lots of research into education and video games over the years, and in the UK I know of several current government funded programs explore the use of video games in schools.

    The reason that we haven't seen more educational video games is not because nobody has thought of it, but because it is so expensive to produce them. In the early days of personal computing - when most software was written by individuals - there were loads of educational computer games, many of them very well designed and fun. But these days you need a budget of millions to create a game, so unfortunately there aren't so many educational titles around.

    • In the early days of personal computing - when most software was written by individuals - there were loads of educational computer games, many of them very well designed and fun. But these days you need a budget of millions to create a game, so unfortunately there aren't so many educational titles around.

      Not necessarily true. You only need large teams if you want to have the coolest new graphics and sound. If it's an educational program, the money might better be spent developing good concepts and good play

  • Literacy? Games? OK then... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fruey ( 563914 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @04:34AM (#6389478) Homepage Journal
    Literacy is improved by reading and writing, and to a lesser extent typing. But you have to do these activities a lot to gain any profit from them.

    Games where you have to interact a lot in a non repetitive way might be useful educational tools, as are books, as is a group classroom experiment, etc.

    However, I have yet to see a game that really wins on any of these points, although they are all complements to real learning. Chat rooms do not even have conversations in English any more, it's all LOL and ROTFL and smilies. I've even seen people in chat rooms who barely type anything else, in fact they probably just point and click macros that someone else created instead.

    Programming and logic, and of course hand to eye coordination, can be learned from computers. Doesn't beat real sport, which adds 3D sensory perception and much better spatial awareness. A good learning game will not beat a good book for improving literacy, but it might help with rule based learning, like mathematics, grammar and vocabulary building by repetition.

    • Zork I had a high level of interaction, and a lot of typing. Zork I was a really good educational game in my opinion.

      Of course it had no graphics, as I beleive that it was the first text based adventure game from Infocom, who had the best language parser around. Way ahead of their time..

  • If only... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @04:41AM (#6389494)
    now Game developers could put REAL messages in their games.

    I remember Civilisation II, and how I was disapointed that the best way to run your government was 'Fundamentalism' and it was minerals for production, farms for food. Very Simple.

    Also SimCity3k where the only people that mattered were petitioners who wanted a money making scheme. Just imagine if a SimCity player gets to be mayor of a major city.

    • Re:If only... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by AKnightCowboy ( 608632 )
      Also SimCity3k where the only people that mattered were petitioners who wanted a money making scheme. Just imagine if a SimCity player gets to be mayor of a major city.

      I hope you're joking, because if you haven't learned that's how real life works yet you're in for a big suprise. Lobbyists petition governments with money making schemes and pay off the corrupt politicians. It's just how democratic republics work.

  • After being in business for myself for awhile, it's dawned on me how similar a lot of strategic management games are like running a business in real life.
    The best of such games taught me to watch expenditures, invest in productive items, make more money which gets invested in other productive items and services.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm actually in a game,
    but with a system of much more interesting and
    gratifying rewards.

  • Thanks a lot (Score:2, Funny)

    by Psyx ( 619571 )
    Really Prof. Gee, did you have to provide scientific proof that my kids are better off playing Counterstrike instead of working on their history? Some help you are.
  • i kid you not; i learned how to read playing the old school sierra games - king's quest and space quest. you had to be able to read and write (albeit pretty broken sentences, lol) to play them, and i got so jealous of watching my older brother playing them that i learned to read by watching over his shoulder and then playing by myself.

    i even got skipped ahead a grade in reading when i entered elementary.

    this guy's got a great point.

  • What I learned from RPGs (Score:5, Funny)

    by kahei ( 466208 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @05:13AM (#6389543) Homepage

    I think playing through the great SNES RPGs of the Golden Age (Final Fantasy, Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, Tales of Fantasia, Secret of Mana, and so on) was a very important, formative, and educational experience for me.

    Among the things I learned:

    You can never carry more than a certain fixed number of objects.

    People may be small moving 16x16 blobs from far away, but up close they turn into large still images.

    Don't hit anyone, because if you do a little number will bounce out of them and it's kind of unnerving.

    When just wandering around in life, you'll need a wide range of area attacks to keep little problems at bay. But when facing a major crisis, such as Kefka or the Profound Darkness, you need big heavy single-target attacks.

    Two or three people co-operating can be much more effective than one -- but only if the game supports combo attacks. Unless it's Chrono Trigger in which case the combos are weaker than individual attacks. I guess there's a moral there.

    It is possible for an art to flourish and die out completely not only within one lifetime, but within just a couple of decades.

  • Pretty obvious ! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bushboy ( 112290 ) <lttc@lefthandedmonkeys.org> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @05:27AM (#6389563) Homepage
    I grew up on a strong diet of board games, card games, word games and later video games - I thought it obvious that games aid learning.

    In fact, this is how most of us learn pretty much everything at an early age.

    Why is it that these 'revelations' keep on cropping up when it's been known for so long that kids playing aid thier learning, no matter what form the game takes ?

    Have the 'power that be' that critisise video games got so powerful that people have forgotten the fact that games are good learning tools ?

    Still, it's nice to see this kind of article and more articles praising games could help to balance out the crazies who blame video games for all social ills.

  • Wizardry (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Bugmaster ( 227959 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @05:59AM (#6389626) Homepage
    I don't know about edutainment or anything, but Wizardry: Crusaders of the Dark Savant has literally taught me English. There was no real reason for me to learn how to read or write the language until then, but when I came to the point where I actually had to understand the story... Well, I had no choice but to pick up that dictionary and get cracking. As a side-effect, I actually spoke using "thee" and "thou" for a while.

    Basically, if it weren't for Wizardry (and, later on, Matrix Cubed), I wouldn't be posting this now. This is enough proof for me that computer games can be more than just pretty distractions.

  • The notion that we can significantly improve people by strictly feeding them one or other social diet has been the basis of much misery inflicted in the name of social progress.
    Children need, above all, to be free to play the way they want to, in a varied and challenging environment that includes many other people.
    Children learn best and most from other children, not from games or books, and yet role of child culture in the learning process is almost totally ignored by this kind of pronouncement. Games - e

  • It just DAWNED ON HIM!? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dmorin ( 25609 ) <dmorin @ g m ail.com> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:00AM (#6389830) Homepage Journal
    When I was in frickin high school, call it about 1983, our physics teacher and resident hacker Steve Kremer told me, "There's no such thing as games, only simulations." Man shoulda written a book.
  • I am a full-time (senior, even) web db-based app. developer and a part-time (evenings) senior CSE student at a major Uni. in VA. (No, not UVA.) I learned what I do for a living by a top down approach. (ie, How'd they do that? Borrow the code from webmonkey, etc, go to a commercial school for 3-5 days every couple of years, & figure out the rest "under fire") I appreciate the bottom-up approach of my CSE curriculum, but, oddly, we haven't got to the point where any of it is useful in my job, yet. I look

  • This isn't some great new insight; people have been railing against "rote" learning for about a century or so. More, in some places.

    So why was there more literacy and learning (among those attending school, with access to books, etc.) before all these wonderous theories of, er, non-rote learning?

  • Slightly OT (Score:2, Informative)

    by Jonsey ( 593310 )
    I know this is a bit off-topic, but I find that DMing pen and paper RPGs has helped me become a better public speaker. It has also helped me develop the ability to use rich descriptions where appropriate. Games that encourage interaction, even if only amongst a few people can be beneficial. Especially when people cannot shorten "you" into "u".

    I really, really loathe those people. /me skulks away.

  • Questron (Score:2, Interesting)

    by rgf71 ( 448062 )
    Honestly, I might not have been interested in learning how to count in hex if it weren't for Questron and the Commodore 64.

    You could edit the character files in a hex editor and give yourself gazzilions of $ or HPs:)

  • Games v. Violent Computer Games (Score:3, Insightful)

    by natpoor ( 142801 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @08:07AM (#6390233) Homepage
    There are at least three problems with his article. He conflates "games" with "computer games", "games" with "violent computer games", and he doesn't mention (unless I missed it) that playing games (not computer games) is something that all higher species do when they are young.

    These are all real issues, and since he doesn't address them it's a big problem for his interview. It's very easy to talke about games, but there are a lot of games and to treat them all the same is extremely problematic. There are non-computer games (lots), computer games, violent computer games, multiplayer... etc. I am so sick of people conflating computer games and violent computer games, you get this script kiddies here who think anyone who dares to question the violence in computer games is attacking everything including Myst.

    His article really isn't news either. It's been well known for a long time that all smart species play and learn from games. Human babies? Love to play! Primates? Play! Lions? The same! Kittens and puppies? They play all the time! It's a form of learning.

    It's also been known for some time that stories are an important part of human history. Before we had writing, everything was an oral history, essentially, a story. Storytelling is a vital and ingrained part of the human experience. The Odyssey? Beowulf? Stories! (That makes four problems.)

  • It seems that people are missing the ramifications of this guy's conclusions.

    IF we all agree (and it seems to be a generally-accepted proposition) that kids can learn from games, then do we also agree that children can be negatively influenced by video games?

    Does this not take us a giant step toward the people that believe the school shooting incidents (like the tragically infamous Columbine shootings) are a result of kids playing first-person shooters?

    Personally, I think I agree with both points, to a d

    • Kids playing Quake may learn how to navigate through a maze and blast enemies, but it's a huge jump to conclude that they're being programmed for the behavior at the same time. Learning involves a completely different set of skills than stimulus-response conditioning, which is what you're talking about.

  • My experience teaching with games. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pecosdave ( 536896 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @08:33AM (#6390498) Homepage Journal
    There was a boy at my old apartment complex who was mostly orphaned, he was being raised by his grandparents. He was well behind his age group at the age of 10 when it came to reading. Be it the Yorky I walked regularly, or the fact he liked checking out all the computer gear I worked on, he attached himself to me. It didn't take long for me to notice he could barely read. I got a pretty good handle on what the kid liked and I hooked him on two video games. I got him hooked on Illusion of Gaia for the SNES which required great amounts of reading admist quite a bit of overhead action. I also got him hooked on Gabriel Knight Sins of the Fathers on the PC (he didn't know it was capable of talking, and I turned the voices off). Granted, a somewhat scary adult targeted (and old) game, but considering his stacks of Playboys and scary movies okayed by his grandparents I deamed it acceptable in his case. After just two to three weeks his reading skills had more than doubled. He never compleated eaither game, but he did spent quite a few hours on each.

    Later he found a 486 in the dumpster with Debian installed on it. Well, hated to do it, but I reformated the drive and put Win98 on it, after I gutted it and put a P166 in it. Hey, he was only 10 or 11 at the time. His grandma had heard all about ebay and wanted to check it out. Perfect! I worked for an ISP at the time. I spoke to my boss/CEO, he allowed no setup fee and the first six months free, I paid for the next six months after that. He knew that I was on IRC at work all day (it was part of my job), I showed him how to bring up the JAVA client (I had more control over that than a normal client would allow) and he chatted all day. At first it would take him serveral minutes to type a poorly spelled short sentance in the room, to the point you almost didn't realize he was there if you weren't looking for him. Within six months he could keep up.

    It all started with video games.

    Before I moved out of that complex his grandmother left a thank you letter under the windsheild wipper of my truck. It's framed and hanging in my computer loft at home now.

    Two months ago I got married. That kid, now 16, was my best man.
  • Another important lesson that can be learned largely from multiplayer gaming is Teamwork. More specifically, leadership/followership skills. FPS games (i.e. quake series, counterstrike, Return to Casltle Wolfenstein) offer tremendous opportunity to interact with people as teamates in a stressful situation. The ability to work with others under pressure is a great skill that is practiced daily by the world's FPS gamers. Capture the flag - style games virtually require teamates to coordinate efforts and i
  • Many of the top 10 games list are great for kids. Look at Sims, Warcraft, Rollercoaster Tycoon, etc. Kids love that kind of open-ended gameplay. The trouble is that there's no kid-friendly mode of playing. What would it take for a "dollhouse" Sims mod with simplier objectives and interfaces? How about a "toy soldier" style Warcraft 3 mod...same game with more play objectives. They're great games...that's why adults like them. Why wouldn't kids like them too!

  • PQ2 (Score:2)

    by kmac06 ( 608921 )
    From all the King's quest, Police quest, and Space quest games I learned how to type quickly. I can still type "unlock door" "open door" incredibly fast

  • The things I learned from Video Games (Score:3, Informative)

    by Tarindel ( 107177 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @10:29AM (#6391887)
    I've been playing computer games since about the time I learned to read. It's amazing the things I've learned.

    I've learned TONS of geography. For example, I can tell you approximately where Bombay, Calcutta, and the Himilayian mountains are in India, thanks to games like Railroad Tycoon 2. I know where a lot of cities are in the Caribbean thanks to Pirates!

    I was reading Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond and he was talking about how fledgling societies that start near an abundance of natural resources tend to grow more quickly and advance faster. Anybody who's ever played Civ could have told you that.

    I've developed more of a vocabulary through encountering words I didn't know in an understandable context. I learned about storytelling through adventure games like Grim Fandango.

    I learned tons of problem solving. Wasteland and Everquest reinforced that often, using a little bit of brains is more important than using a lot of might. I've learned about consequence (killing NPCs randomly means you sometimes can't finish quests that involve them) and diplomacy.

    I learned a bit about math and statistics from playing RPGs like and influenced by AD&D from all that dice rolling and min-maxing.

    I learned about the principles of the stock market and speculating from playing BBS games. And about supply and demand economics from online MMORPGS.

    Games often tend to mimic real life, even when they include imaginative elements, and often do a great job of taking a complex system and making it simple and understandable by putting it in a larger context. It gives people the opportunity to explore a subset of a subject thats accessible to someone without much of a background in that topic area, and the knowledge gained can then be used as a stepping stone into more complex topics that are more directly applicable to the real world.

    As you can see, the above topics hit a wide variety of areas. I think that playing games gave me a better appreciation and a better foundation for the multitude of topics that I would encounter later in life. I've always wondered if it would be possible to write an interesting book entirely on the multitude of areas that computer games reflect real life -- because I think non-gamers simply don't realize how broad the correlation is!

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