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Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

To Kill An Avatar 44

Posted by simoniker from the wabbit-upset-at-being-neglected dept.
Thanks to Legalaffairs.org for their new article called 'To Kill An Avatar', discussing lawmaking in online worlds. Although this is an often-explored subject, some interesting examples come up, such as a case in which "..an avatar [in virtual world There] put up a 'For Sale' sign in front of a house that he didn't own.. the scam artist collected some serious Therebucks (the currency of There) before the creators of the world discovered what was afoot and took corrective action." The article concludes without much hope of resolution: "You could make a virtual world without the possibility of crime - but it would probably be about as dynamic as Pong or Tetris.. by creating virtual lives, investments, and freedoms, we create the conditions for virtual crime."
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To Kill An Avatar

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  • Well, in the real world... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by recursiv ( 324497 ) on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @09:15PM (#6404829) Homepage Journal
    We have authorities to stop this, such as police. Why should the virtual world be any different? Have some avatars be virtual police. Human or machine controlled.

    • welcome to the real world ... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by PaganRitual ( 551879 ) <splaga @ i n t e r n ode.on.net> on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @09:58PM (#6405047)
      ... i suppose thats what you get tho ... if you create a 'real' world, dont be suprised when 'real world' problems rear their heads ... ... if they are human, then you are effectively hiring people to become virtual police, which would effectively become a full time job, which they then have to be paid for. how much do you pay a virtual cop? surely not heaps, but it has to be enough to be able to keep them from wanting another job. ... if they are machine controlled then i can imagine a robocop style situation where the perp has stopped doing whatever is illegal, but the huge towering ED-209 is still counting down in preparation for destroying the bad guy due to some sort of dodgy AI loop. ... i suppose the only other answer would be to endow certain heavy users with police powers, mods if you will, but not employed mods, people that just play the game a lot who are rewarded with police powers. powers which of course would inevitably be abused ...
      • Why not just build it into the game?

        For example:
        the game could have a system through which the players build up a government, and that government would have the ability to setup law enforcement. Law enforcement would then be a profession that people choose to perform (as someone said in a past thread on a similar subject, like the Crimson Guard in .hack://Sign (part 3 released in the US on DVD this week, watched it last nite ;p). Maybe require some sort of training to become an officer, and then have addit

      • powers which of course would inevitably be abused ...

        Then you need a Police Complaints Authority / Internal-Affairs Dept, they need to watched too so a Police Oversight Committee, and on and on.
    • On one hand if you make virtual worlds which are similar to the real world, who would want to play ? I thought the whole "fun" in having a virtual world was the fact that you didn't need to abide by all the conventions of the real world. If I could have a pet dragon for real, I would have one, etc. On the other hand, there is the fairly large problem of "griefers", people who play these games specifically trying to ruin it for everyone else. Most people would like to see this stopped, but can you even r
    • Actually, it's not a bad idea. What's the punishment for committing crimes in the real world? Depending on the crime, it ranges from fines to jailtime to death. Why not have the equivalent? Fines would be the same, charge the user's account. Jail time would be expulsion from the server for a limited time (say, a week, or a month). Death would be expulsion from the game, period. I'm not saying a 1-1 correlation for in game/real life should exist (since PKing is a very popular action in MUD type worlds
    • I hate to break it to you, but despite having police, there is still crime out there in the real world. There exist "virtual police" and they are called GMs, and they have a stronger presence in some games than others. But since there is a limited number of them, crime can still occur (just like there are limited police in the real world). And the machine-controlled police are limited in what they can do (the article meantions that they can't even reliably prevent swearing).
      • Police don't exist to eliminate crime. That's impossible. Police exist to control crime. I think that's much how it should be too. How would you like to get a speeding ticket everytime you drove faster than the speed limit or jay-walked? If you can get away with it, good for you. It makes a more interesting and dynamic game environment.

  • It's time... (Score:5, Funny)

    by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @09:23PM (#6404863) Homepage Journal
    ...to bring back virtual flogging!
    • What about if the character gets busted killing someone, they get sent to the public stockades for 24hrs or whatever in real time. The player will have to wait until the time is up before having control of his character again. If he's detained in a public place, passerbys can throw rotten vegtables, which are near the stockades, at the character.

  • .hack//SIGN and virtual lawlessness. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by simoniker ( 40 ) * <simoniker@sla s h d o t . org> on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @09:25PM (#6404875) Homepage Journal
    Didn't put it in the main post cos it's a tad off-topic, but I just started watching Bandai's .hack//SIGN [cartoonnetwork.com] TV show on Cartoon Network, and there's some really interesting discussions of lawlessness in virtual worlds in that (seeing as it takes place in a MMORPG n' all.) It's an intriguing and thoughtprovoking show - do you go in a MMORPG to have fun however you want, even if it means being 'bad', or is imposing order necessary for the majority to have fun? That seemed to be one of the questions they tackled.
    • I have not been able to follow the show very well since I have found more interesting things to do on a Saturday night. Its interesting that not only is the premise of MMORPG lawlessness explored in the anime, but also the concept of self policing in the form of the Crimson Knights.

      I swear we were talking about the Crimson Knights just this past Sunday [slashdot.org]. That's two Crimson Knights comments in 4 days.
      • Personally, the only way I've managed to follow it at all is by picking up the DVDs as they're released.

        Personally, I like the fact that the show not only handles the idea of self-policing, but also shows that there is an extent to which the Crimson Knights still can not handle every possible circumstance (ie the fact that Tsukasa (and possibly others) can travel through the World in ways that are not supposed to be possible). That and the fact that at least one person in the hierarchy has some access to t
    • .hack touches on a lot of interesting issues, and I agree with you-- the players playing evil as a departure from their real life personalities is pretty interesting. Overall the show's a lot deeper than most suspect. Hell, for some of the "players" in the show, The World is not only the only social outlet they're confortable with existing in, but it's the only one they use at all. It's definitely one of my favorite anime, in that they could have done SUCH a crummy job with it. Just cover your eyes and

  • Divine Intervention over petty larceny? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Dr. Photo ( 640363 ) on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @09:31PM (#6404900) Journal
    ...before the creators of the world discovered what was afoot and took corrective action.

    Now that's what I call a full-service Universe! :)

    • Jews and Christians say the same thing happens occasionally in this world as well.

      In the religions that form in the worlds of Xbox games, is there a god named "Bill"?

  • My personal opinion of There (from what I read in Business2.0 and have seen mentioned online) is that it is simply a bunch of business/marketing people that sat down to decide how to put marketing inside a MMORPG. However, they forgot that they need a MMORPG to actually attract people. Right now it's just a glorified chat room. Apparently they are wanting to license the technology to real MMORPG developers but we'll see how that goes. It's really just a big ploy to get advertisers like Nike, Starbucks,

  • Rule Number One (Score:4, Funny)

    by bigsteve@dstc ( 140392 ) on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @10:45PM (#6405124)
    No lawyers

  • The PEOPLES court (Score:4, Funny)

    by August_zero ( 654282 ) on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @11:10PM (#6405258)
    Online liability, what a scary idea.

    What if every punk on Counter Strike could have charges pressed on them for acting like a complete git?
    "LOLZ I 0\/\/|) j00!"
    "Oh you think so? BAM! eat Subpoena 1337 boy! your going jail!"
    "|\|00000000! "

  • Expected stuff (Score:3, Insightful)

    by starlabs ( 610056 ) on Wednesday July 09, 2003 @11:30PM (#6405366)
    Anybody who has played any kind of massive online game already knows this - that being online and somewhat anonymous actually LEADS to behavior that is mischievous or harmful to others. It's easy to be an a-hole when nobody knows you. Having played Everquest for some time in the past, grief players and scammers abound. And you know what? It'll always be like that.

    IMO there's *more* "crime" online than there is in the real-world - why? Because what's the worse that can happen to you? Get banned? Yah, that's about it. For games with a persistent character, this is a somewhat effective deterrent (see Everquest). But really, this won't stop many people from ruining other people's online experiences.
  • Just do what the creator(s) of our virtual world did: leave it up to the people inside the virtual reality!

  • Every inn has a dark, shadowy corner (Score:3, Insightful)

    by wynterwynd ( 265580 ) on Thursday July 10, 2003 @12:49AM (#6405660)
    In the end, there will always be players in a MMORPG who work outside the basic rules, much like in real-life. I don't believe this will lead to the downfall of MMORPGs however, as long as the game provides an area to work out these anti-establishment feelings.

    As far as exploiters go, you find them in every MMORPG. Those who push the limits of every game-enforced law or rule, to gain an advantage over their fellow players. I would like to see a system that encompasses this, similar to moderation on a board. A panel of GMs could monitor the shady activities that go on, and adjust the player's game experience accordingly. A particularly devious game designer could even incorporate specific exploits into the system to draw those who are attracted to working on the fringes of the "law". I believe it would enhance the roleplaying experience for those not inclined to walk the bright, straight, and narrow path, thus leading to a higher subscription rate overall.

    You're never going to get rid of the cheaters. But since they're there already, why not make it a player class?

    Wynter
  • Alot of people create virtual lives for themselves. They see it as a chance of a better life, and if its worse they can destroy that one a get a new one. The "crime" most comit is to hide their real looks. Not everyone can be popular in the real world, but in the virtual world anythings possible. As for people policing them, their are moderaters and things., not to mention worse comes to worse you can call in a white hat.
  • What about the idea of something like There or the more real-life-like MMORPGs serving as a sort of enhanced chat room? Yes, I know, they're like that already. But I'll never sign up for it because I'm not really interested in meeting new people--I have enough trouble keeping up with the people in my real life.

    And that's exactly what would be missing from There (for me)--the people in my real life. I don't use IM to meet new people--I use it to talk to the people I already know (or meet in real life). I

    • It would be absolutely fantastic to interact with those people I know in real life in a[n online] world

      It would be way too easy to slip up and fall Out Of Character.

  • One word: The WorldForge Project [worldforge.org]. Should I say more? No. That is because the most interesting research in this field is being discussed on The WorldForge Project's public mailing lists [worldforge.org], which I strongly urge you to subscribe to. (But before you post any questions there please make sure to read the FAQ [worldforge.org].)
  • Committing a sexual assault in an online game should be an offence in the real world, because it has real-world effects. It could be dealt with in-game by giving the offender a really bad STD, in addition to in-game police. In a fantasy game, they could take a leaf from the Glorantha [everything2.com] game world, and have the rapist transform into a hairy goat-headed monster (this doesn't always happen, but it can happen to repeat offenders).
    • Virtual rape is not real rape. There are enough problems trying to get real rape cases through the legal system now without worrying about virtual rape. Anyone who gets seriously upset about something that happens in a VR game needs to find another hobby.
      • Very true.

        After all, it's just text on a screen, and maybe a picture. You can always ALT-TAB out of it. That doesn't work so well for real rape.

      • Anyone who gets seriously upset about something that happens in a VR game needs to find another hobby.

        but that's precisely the point of making the games as immersive as possible, so that people WILL feel a distinct connection to their character. if you DON'T feel something when someone does something to your character, then the game obviously isn't doing its job.

        that said, comparing actual rape to virtual rape is like comparing a simple auto accident with scrapes and bruises to a GTA-style mass hit and

        • Eh. No. Comparing actual rape to virtual rape is like comparing a real life hit and run to a hit and run in a video game: One is wrong, and one is not wrong at all.

          If the game designers don't want virtual rape in their game, then they are perfectly empowered to make it impossible. If they have not done so... it is part of the game.

          If there is a game that incorporates things that you do not like (ie griefers in The Sims Online) don't play the game. It's a really simple, 100% effective solution.
          • That's why I chose the subject line carefully. I consider it to be a sexual assault. It becomes tricky where one or more of the players is not the same sex as their character, though.

            If the game designers don't want virtual rape in their game, then they are perfectly empowered to make it impossible.

            From the article, I get the impression that the offender hacked the game to make it possible, or at least easier ("used a coding trick to control them and then sodomized them").

            • That's why I chose the subject line carefully. I consider it to be a sexual assault.

              Yeah. That's why I didn't bother replying to your original post. You've made a statement that makes zero sense to me. Why not say, "Books about sexual assault = RL sexual assault"? Or even, "Leafy greens = RL sexual assault"?

              If you're going to say two unrelated things are equal to eachother, you're going to have to explain yourself a little better. Not only is virtual rape not sexual assault, it's not even assault. You mi
  • I used to MUD every now and then (years ago) and reading this article kind of reminded why I stoped. When the MUD was still relitivly small player-wise it was easy to police things. Usually the wizards would do most of their work, except in a situation where a person pk-ed another person who had an anti-pk (they shouldn't be attacked nor were they to attack anyone else) flag set, which then allowed everyone (pk or otherwise) to attack them free of penalty. A kind of hard system, esp if you were a low lev

  • Comments that are better late than never (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bugnuts ( 94678 ) on Friday July 11, 2003 @03:22AM (#6413204) Journal
    I do a lot of MMORPG playing. I run large allegiances. I'm happy to address the social problems of MMORPGs.

    1) Some people like to cause trouble.
    A virtual world is, as one friend put it, a place where he can do bad things without fear of having bad things done to him. In other words, he sees his avatar solely as a distraction at $10/month, but others see it as blood/sweat/tears and really identify with their avatars. Thus, they have more to lose, and therefore he gets all the power. And he enjoys abusing that power -- something he can't easily do in real life.

    2) Some people like to complain.
    You will, in every virtual and non-virtual place, find people that will complain about anything. If the game is too hard, they complain. If it's too easy, they complain. If they report a bug that isn't fixed by the time they form their next (first?) coherent thought, they complain. These people must be ignored, and they exist en masse in MMORPGs and always migrate to the fansites and post in ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME WITH LOTS OF !!!!!!!. In general, I pity them because they have no control over anything in real life.

    3) Virtual police do not work.
    Some people do not like to play vs other players (pvp). Others find this the only exciting thing in games -- AI always fall short, but fighting real people can be a tremendous challenge. But what happens when a pvp-er attacks a non-combatant? The NC feels violated. Combine a pvper with #1, and you have a serious griefer. So let's say a bunch of folks get together to punish this person. The result is that a bunch of other people get together to punish the law enforcement. In real life, law enforcement usually has superior firepower... not so in virtual worlds.

    4) There is no stealing in virtual worlds (generally).
    Rarely do virtual words add the ability to steal, except in worlds where you can hunt down the offending thief. All other cons are just that: cons. If you get tricked into dropping your Dragon Platemail of the Elements, it's your loss. Many people risk their character's reputation to con other characters, and it can be a lucrative business. Never underestimate the greed or the ignorance of your fellow player. This has real world implications, because that dragon platemail can be sold on ebay for $100. I am waiting for the day someone is sued or actually hurt in real life for conning or exploiting someone in a game. I've heard rumors that it's already happened. Some games have made conning against the Code of Conduct, and will ban or delete characters that don't keep their words. But this has the problem of enforcement, and usually there is no way to appeal. Remember we're talking about items that may have real world $ value, and it's being decided by some random droid on the other end of a computer. Judge/jury/executioner, and usually no process of appeal. No thanks.

    5) If it can be exploited, it will be exploited.
    The physics of a game are coded very strictly, where players must be rewarded or they'll stop playing (and take their monthly fees with them!). So, things must be attainable by the normal player, yet things must remain challenging. There are people out there that will run the math and find the lowest cost:benefit, then do that. They see optimizing character advancement as the challenge, and are not interested in socializing or anything else. Maxing a character means winning the game. But these people are usually thwarted at every opportunity by the game manufacturers, which IMHO is a bad idea. What happens is that, in the attempt to thwart these people, the game manufacturers screw the normal player.

    I realize this doesn't paint a very nice picture of MMORPGs, but remember that these are the difficulties that designers face. Some of the advantages is that they provide wonderful places to meet people with similar interests in a virtual environment, where you can present yourself as whatever you want. Some try to roleplay, some don't care. Some play the opposite sex, some tr
  • I know I've seen a few stories posted about this game in the past, but I wonder if those who wrote this article had a chance to look at A Tale in the Desert [atitd.com]. In this game there are no laws for a reason - players must create the legal system from the ground up. Laws are then implemented by the devs (with some reasonable restrictions of what can be legislated). Examples of important laws passed so far would be laws that allow players to tear down or use the buildings of 'Departed Players', as well as laws

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