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The Courts Government Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games News

Castronova's Notes on Hacker Court 156

Posted by CowboyNeal from the virtual-litigation dept.
scubacuda writes "Cal State Fullerton's Edward Castronova (who recently wrote an excellent analysis of gender inequality between male and female Everquest avatars) has just updated his notes on 'Hacker Court', a mock trial held at Vegas' Black Hat Conference on whether virtual items destroyed during the hack of an online video game constituted real loss. 'No verdict was reached, but the jury and audience agreed that the damages were real,' says Castronova."
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Castronova's Notes on Hacker Court More

Castronova's Notes on Hacker Court

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  • OK....so? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Scalli0n ( 631648 ) on Thursday July 31, 2003 @11:43PM (#6585601) Homepage
    A mock jury decided a mock decision.

    How about we mock the geeks that are still crying over this?

    • Re:OK....so? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Frymaster ( 171343 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:44AM (#6585833) Homepage Journal
      How about we mock the geeks that are still crying over this?

      feel free. but the exercise actually has touched on an important issue: the "value" of "virtual" items.

      let's look at two theories of value, shall we?

      1. labour theory of value: both adam smith and karl marx agree on how to assess value (whoda thunk?) value is represented by labour. (marx's theory is here [marxist.com], adam smith here [drexel.edu]) the bottom line is that the value of an object is the labour that goes into making it. raw materials are "just there" and only have value because of the labour expended to extract and refine them. add up the work hours to make something and you have its value.

        now, with virtual items this is tricky. baboo the barbarian "worked" for several hundred hours to win the +12 shears of torpiary. so, to baboo, thos shears have a "value" of 100 hours. however, some programmer wrote up those shears in 2 minutes and created a dozen of them with a keystroke. so, to the authors of the game, the shears are worth 2.01 minutes of labour.

        the bottom line is: the labour value of virtual items depend on who you are. this is totally unlike "hard" items (ie, real shears). labour value theory fails us.

      2. the scarcity theory of value: this is the supply and demand stuff everyone seems enamoured with these days. you know it. now, we'll ignore things like elasticity and fungibility to keep it simple.

        to baboo, there are only 12 shears in "existance". since they are highly sought after (demand) and there are very few (supply) the value of the shears is high. however, the authors of the game can create, destroy, modify and, most importantly, duplicate these shears with near-zero effort. the supply can be upped instantly. the shears can be modified to become useless, thus reducing the demand. the authors can make as many shears for themselves as they wish...

        so, once again, the value depends on who you are. totally unlike real shears. the scarcity theory breaks down with virtual things.

      so. do virtual items have value? no matter how you calculate value, the answer depends on who you are. this is a major readjustment of the whole concept of value and will need to be addressed by governments and the law as the distribution and use of virtual items (not just in the gaming world, but everywhere) becomes more prevalent.

      we don't need a digital millenium copyright act, we need a digital millenium value theory. of course, coming up with that will require some knowledge of economic theory and some hard thinking - so don't expect one from your politicians anytime soon.

      • Re:OK....so? (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        All you are saying is that Marx and Smith are wrong. "Labour value theory fails us." - we already know that. Value has always been a relative thing, and has depended on culture, class, etc.. It is an entirely human ascription and as such, has no basis in objective reality.

      • Re:OK....so? (Score:3, Informative)

        by Arker ( 91948 )

        What you're talking about isn't new, it's called the subjective theory of value, and the austrian school of economists worked it out a long time ago.

      • How much time went into the design process for the shears? How about the time playtesting the shears to make sure they fit into the world properly? The labour is not just the coding time, but the entire systems development life cycle comes into play.

        As for real shears, what about shears your grandfather owned? They may have value beyond that of the labour spent making them. They would also cary a value based on the fact that your grandfather owned them for 50 years and used them to trim his prized rose
        • They [shears] would also carry a value based on the fact that your grandfather owned them for 50 years and used them to trim his prized rosebush.

          Of course, they'd have a slightly different value had he used them to trim your grandmother's bush.

      • Re:OK....so? (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        How much time did you spend writing that post and was it worth it considering all it got you was some karma(as worthless as the shears) and some quite stupid responses by people who did not put nearly as much thought into their posts as you, or even fully understand your point?

      • Re:OK....so? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 )
        "the bottom line is: the labour value of virtual items depend on who you are. this is totally unlike "hard" items (ie, real shears). labour value theory fails us."

        The notion that a virtual item has little or no value to the game company is not completely true. For one, game companies may sell in-game items to some extend. Witness Ultima Online, where the game company will buff your character for real-life dollars.

        In-game items are almost like currency when it comes to value. Like currency, virtual
        • In-game items are almost like currency when it comes to value.

          Hmmm, interesting. Does that mean E-bay is the precursor to an online Wall Street?

          --K.

      • Re:OK....so? (Score:1, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Paper money has essentially the same properties. (I think there's probably an argument that the value of all real world items depends on who your are, but paper money is obvious.)

        and fwiw, the "labor theory", aka just price, has failed in practice (in the real world). When replaced with supply and demand driven price, that succeeded. So there's a reason everyone is "enamoured" with it.

      • however, the authors of the game can create, destroy, modify and, most importantly, duplicate these shears with near-zero effort. the supply can be upped instantly. the shears can be modified to become useless, thus reducing the demand. the authors can make as many shears for themselves as they wish...

        Wahey! Back on topic...

        This is the problem with proprietary software. It's value lies in scarcity, but the scarcity is patently artificial. Artificial scarcity is what copyright and patent laws exist to

        • Re:OK....so? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Ed Avis ( 5917 )
          So maybe an analogous question to ask would be: if you have a copy of Microsoft Word on your hard disk, and someone wipes it, what is the value of the damage caused? I'd say the time taken to reinstall Word, not the cost of buying another original Word CD at full retail price. Similarly the damage caused by deleting a virtual item is just the time taken for the sysadmin to recreate that item.

      • now, with virtual items this is tricky. baboo the barbarian "worked" for several hundred hours to win the +12 shears of torpiary. so, to baboo, thos shears have a "value" of 100 hours. however, some programmer wrote up those shears in 2 minutes and created a dozen of them with a keystroke. so, to the authors of the game, the shears are worth 2.01 minutes of labour.

        An interesting analysis, but in some sence your not comparing like with like. As I see it theres two different worlds going on here. The in g

      • Re:OK....so? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Buzz_Litebeer ( 539463 )
        The shears in and of themselves are worth nothing at all!

        The entire value comes from the service of playing the game. Getting items is a PART of the SERVICE of playing that game. By "spending 12 hours" to get the shears, you have spent 12 hours on the service in pursuit of enjoyment.

        If the game company decided to nullify your service early, even if you have a level 60 everquest avatar, the only thing you SHOULD be able to get back is your unused subscription amount.

        IE if you played 1 month of a payed f
      • I think the value should be measured in labor, but bounded by usefullness value.

        If I work all day at bending paper clips straight, do the paper clips have more value?

        The value of the items in the game can in no way be more valuable than the game itself. If you spent 20$/mo for a year, everything you have in the game summed up can be no more valuable than 240$. 240$ worth of entertainment would have been spoiled by the hackers, not 1,000$ worth of work to get the items. The usefullness of the items is s
      • IANAE, but what I do remember from micro is that the opportunity cost theory of value was a damn powerful idea: the value of a pair of shears is what you can get for the shears.

        This is a relative measure of value, and as long as you can only trade the shears for other virtual items it is very difficult to pin down a specific cost. However controlling a character with shears or some other virtual item is presumably more fun than controlling a character without, so the shears have some entertainment value.

    • Maybe they could make a better use of there time by getting the operators to improve security rather than wasting time with a mock jury?

  • Damn (Score:4, Funny)

    by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Thursday July 31, 2003 @11:52PM (#6585638)
    I read that as Casanova's Notes and I thought /. was finally going to tell me how to be a babe magnet.

  • Sorry... no real loss. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tinrobot ( 314936 ) on Thursday July 31, 2003 @11:52PM (#6585639)
    I'm not an Everquest player, so I may be talking out my rear here, but the logic seems fairly simple.

    Somebody with bad intentions hacks into the server and destroys your virtual items. Later, the hack is revealed. The sysadmin either goes to the backup or resets a few counters. Virtual items are returned to you. Problem is solved.

    The only tangible loss I can see is the Sysadmin's time and effort.

    • Only if the operator is nice (Score:5, Interesting)

      by achurch ( 201270 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:05AM (#6585692) Homepage

      Somebody with bad intentions hacks into the server and destroys your virtual items. Later, the hack is revealed. The sysadmin either goes to the backup or resets a few counters. Virtual items are returned to you.

      I suspect that's the crux of the problem--whether or not the sysadmin would actually return the items/counters or just say "tough luck". As an off-and-on FFXI player, I've had to deal with Square taking the latter position (albeit on bugs rather than cracks) far too often. If it took you X number of days to acquire an item or the like, and through no fault of your own that item suddenly disappeared, then yes, the real time you spent acquiring that item is a real loss.

      • Get a grip - its only a f**king game!

        Alex

      • Loss is subjective (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Steeltoe ( 98226 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:41AM (#6585817) Homepage
        In the objective sense, everything happens as-it-is. If something disappears or gets created, it's just an event happening in a world, in this instance the artificial cyberworld of Everquest. In fact, if Verant wishes to, they can easily implement a system of degrading items or having NPC thieves pickpocket you. It's their game, their chose. They even claim no warranty for preserving anything you "gain" in the game in their license you agree to every login. They also have a history of banning people who auction out virtual stuff. It's not real. You pay for the experience of these events, wether you judge them good or bad, not any objects in their world.

        It's your choice to play the game, and also how you're gonna handle a setback. Obviously, you have a goal of earning as much level, eq, money, power, respect, whatever, as you can. This goal is also subjective, and varies a from player to player. I won't go into details here about that, that could last for days..

        One lesson, as in real life, is that things come and go. There's no real value to material stuff, because in the end THEY WILL ALL GO, including our own body. When you realize this, you can see everything as events with hidden lessons in them and let go of it. This doesn't mean you should never complain to get your character fixed or do anything dogmatic. Nobody can tell you what you MUST do, and rob you of your choice!

        It means that in the end, you know you're perfectly safe because you're going to lose Everything anyways.

        • Re:Loss is subjective (Score:5, Insightful)

          by achurch ( 201270 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:49AM (#6585853) Homepage

          You could say exactly the same thing about the real world, you know. Get your car stolen? That's real loss. Hard drive goes up in smoke (this happened to me two days ago)? That's real loss. In the End, no, nothing matters, but until then--which is subjectively quite a long time!--being pissed is, IMNSHO, a perfectly normal and reasonable reaction.

        • I only skimmed the middle of your post before replying, so I didn't notice that you also make the comparison to real life. My point was that the hermit life (that's probably a bad way to put it, but nothing else comes to mind at the moment) isn't for all of us; whether good or bad, those of us who do invest time or money in material things, services, whatever, get upset if that investment is put to waste (again, not the best choice of words). That may not be ideal, yes, but it's the way people are, and it
          • I'm not saying we should abstain from enjoying life, wether we play with things, people or fantasy. In fact, we should really celebrate life. It's great: Superb resolution, realistic sound effects plus some exotic touch-effects! I almost believe I'm really here!!! ;-)

            I'm also not saying we should abstain from worry, anxiety, sadness, anger or any emotion. If they come up, just let them. We probably need the release, and blocking it can do more harm.

            However, we can be natural and cherish knowledge more. In

            • In fact, we should really celebrate life. It's great: Superb resolution, realistic sound effects plus some exotic touch-effects!

              Damn, where do you get the touch effects? I must need an upgrade... ;-)

              Overall, though, I agree with what you're saying, and (to be at least vaguely on topic) I think that the number of people who play online games demonstrates at least to an extent that there are plenty of people not satisfied with the world the way it is--and I think that's why players complain so much when

              • Damn, where do you get the touch effects? I must need an upgrade... ;-)

                Comes with the girlfriend upgrade I got patched half a year ago ;-)
                But, seriously. Take a few hours walk in nature and touch all the trees you want! There are lots of interesting things to touch! :-)

                Overall, though, I agree with what you're saying, and (to be at least vaguely on topic) I think that the number of people who play online games demonstrates at least to an extent that there are plenty of people not satisfied with the wor
      • "As an off-and-on FFXI player, I've had to deal with Square taking the latter position (albeit on bugs rather than cracks) far too often."

        Isn't FFXI in beta still? Why are you complaining about what you lost in a beta test? You are beta testing the game... good job finding the bug... go find the next one, stop complaining, and do your job there.

        If that still happens during release, then thats a problem, but not in a beta.
    • First, I imagine the game updates too quickly for them to make backups, so they can't restore your items because they're not going to take your word on it.

      Second, if the items and experience are worth real money in the real world, then it is loss (not how EQ money is worth more than the Yen against the dollar).

      This is still debatable because it is "just" a game, but the losses are real.

      A possible comparison would be if a banks records are hacked and destroyed, do you lose your money? I'm sure they have
      • "A possible comparison would be if a banks records are hacked and destroyed, do you lose your money? I'm sure they have backups all over the place, but it's a similar concept."

        Even if I did my bank is backed by the Bank of England so even if my bank went tits up I'd get my money back. When you enter into a game you make a pledge to play by the rules, if I deposit my real genuine pounds sterling into a bank they guarentee to look after it (and pay me interest ;-)

        What do the rules of these games say about t
    • "Somebody with bad intentions hacks into the server and destroys your virtual items. Later, the hack is revealed. The sysadmin either goes to the backup or resets a few counters. Virtual items are returned to you. Problem is solved."

      If the company reverts the game server to the state of yesterday, the people who gained some valuable item today will be stiffed. It's not that simple. If the server is hacked and reverted, anyone can claim they found 'rare object xyz' that day and demand a replacement. Fo
    • "Somebody with bad intentions hacks into the server and destroys your virtual items. Later, the hack is revealed. The sysadmin either goes to the backup or resets a few counters. Virtual items are returned to you. Problem is solved."

      I don't play EverQuest, but I have been playing Ragnarok Online [ragnarok.co.kr] for the past 4-5 months and they've had at least one (maybe 2) major incident of account hacking since I started. The one I remember, the GMs, after some delay, rolled back all of our items and money by a week.

  • This is an easy one (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31, 2003 @11:53PM (#6585643)
    Just award them some virtual money.
    • Surely most money is virtual these days. I expect most "real" money exists solely on a disk somewhere at XYZ Bank/Visa data centre.
      • [blah] Never heard of Fort Knox [maineguide.com]? [/blah]

        Anyway, you're probably right. Interrestingly enough some peoples were able to 'create' money out of nothing (like Serge [parodie.com] Humpich [amazon.com]).

        And to stay on parent topic, the 'hacker' should first earn the virtual money to give back. Which probably means buying the game (in his situation, i wouldnt try with a cracked one). And spend some time playing to get the right amount of 'virtual' money...

        ...Or perhaps he should crack the server again and restore the same amount of items

  • a! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Did they arrive at a value for the loss of pride associated with going to an Everquest convention?

  • I have a dream. (Score:1, Redundant)

    by paroneayea ( 642895 )
    I have a dream that one day everyone will use the terms hacker and cracker correctly. Well, I guess that one's not going to happen today.

  • Does this mean virtual deaths are real too? (Score:5, Funny)

    by happyhippy ( 526970 ) on Thursday July 31, 2003 @11:57PM (#6585661)
    So Im looking at a couple of thousand life sentences for playing Counterstrike?
  • Haha, I hope I'm not (though I am certain that I am...) the only one that, at first glance, interpreted the headline as Fidel illegally obtaining some cheap Viagra on the 'net or some equally funny sexually-enabling object.

    In all seriousness though, I have to admit that I have serious doubts regarding any impact that this story could possbily have...The 'mock trial' has no real-world implications, and even if it did, well...inconclusive.

    So, why? this is the part where you rip into me for missing an 'obvi
  • While I understand the issue, if I spent hours of time leveling up, gsearch for secret items and rare bonuses I'd be pissed too, if someone hacked it and all my hard work was for nothing. But what about the devlopers who design the game constantly changing it, giving some really kewl items, then for no reason they nerf it out of existance, so it becomes worthless. I feel the next big jump in mmorpg's will be when the users have more control over what happens in the realm of the game, then things will beco
  • You can also look at the losses in this case as being a loss of real time and effort on the part of the people who created/obtained the virtual items. Sure it's a mock court, but the philosophical principles upheld are real in many ways.

  • Div's Happy Hour (Score:4, Funny)

    by akedia ( 665196 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:08AM (#6585705)
    I just want to take a moment to talk to all the retards.

    So, you spend your real money in order to get pretend money in your online games.

    Then, for the privilege of spending that pretend money - in a pretend world, on pretend things - you pay more real money, every month.

    What a bunch of fucking brain surgeons.

    (Credit goes to Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com]. Seems apropros here. Seriously guys, get a life. It's disturbing.)

    • Re:Div's Happy Hour (Score:1, Flamebait)

      by RLiegh ( 247921 )
      What you described points to a good reason why I am turned off of online games particularly MUD -if I want to learn a scripting language -I'll do so for real; not in the context of some crappy [imho] text-based star trek MUD.

    • I could make a snide remark about people who spend real money for the privilege of pretending to have sex, but I'll pass.

    • Can't argue with economics.

    • Re:Div's Happy Hour (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Idarubicin ( 579475 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:49AM (#6586174) Journal
      I just want to take a moment to talk to all the retards.

      So, you spend your real money in order to get pretend money in your online games.

      Then, for the privilege of spending that pretend money - in a pretend world, on pretend things - you pay more real money, every month.

      I spent some real money the other day on a pretend world. It was a world created by Arthur C. Clarke. I was entertained for a few hours, and now that pretend world full of pretend things sits on my shelf.

      Yesterday I went to the local video store, where I spent some more real money on yet another pretend world. Today, I returned the video--if I want to visit that pretend world again, I'll have to cough up more real money.

      What's the difference between people who spend X dollars per month on Everquest et al. and the people who sink X dollars per month into satellite television? It's all entertainment. People don't usually buy either product with 'useful' ends in mind--they pay the money to be amused and pass the time. It's their money; it's their time. Sure, they could be giving both to more 'worthy' causes, but so could we all.

      • I spent some real money the other day on a pretend world. It was a world created by Arthur C. Clarke. I was entertained for a few hours, and now that pretend world full of pretend things sits on my shelf.

        and any time you want to revisit that pretend world, you can pick it back up off the shelf without spending any more money. Alternatively, you could've gone and picked it up from the library for free, as long as you returned it on time.

        Yesterday I went to the local video store, where I spent some more
    • Why not link to the actual comic instead of writing out the text of the comic and then providing a link to the comic's index page? Here's [penny-arcade.com] the comic in all its visual splendor.

  • "Preaching From The Choir" (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    So, a bunch of people who play EQ-type games get together and decide that getting their EQ-type characters messed up is "real damage."

    What does the other 99% of the population think?

  • whats the point? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by August_zero ( 654282 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:44AM (#6585831)
    I admit that I play some online games that I end up having to pay for. I play PSO with a few friends and my brother from time to time. I played AC2 for awhile, I am playing in the FFXI beta right now.

    But I could never see the justification in buying items with real money. I mean its a freakin game, as soon as it becomes so important to me that I'll spend $100 for an imaginary sword I hope that somebody is kind enough to snuff me out. The "items" one finds in a game are, at most, numbers. I can no more own a magic broad sword +2 vs Nose goblins as i can own the number 7.

    People cheating/hacking can disrupt my enjoyment of a game, but its a game. Im not going to press charges against them, im not going to go over to their house and tell their mom. If the host of said game can't keep the miscreants under control than I will quit and find some better use for my money, simple as that.

    People are just way too attached to their own self worth. It wouldn't be hard to throw in some arguments about artifical spirituality and psuedo-relegious behaviors associated with online gaming but I am out of scotch

    • But I could never see the justification in buying items with real money. I mean its a freakin game, as soon as it becomes so important to me that I'll spend $100 for an imaginary sword I hope that somebody is kind enough to snuff me out.


      But you're paying the upfront and the monthly fee to PLAY the game already?! Why is it a big leap of logic to then pay a little more for in-game items?
      • That would be akin to sitting down with some friends to play a game of "Monopoly" and mid game when Steve has 6 hotels on various properties, I take a 50 out of my wallet and hand it to him in exchange for his property. Its a game, I payed Parker Brothers $30 to own a copy of their real-estate trading game, but I bought it so I could play the game. If I only derive pleasure from owning little red plastic hotels I am missing the point of the exercise.

        People don't climb Mt Everest so that they can have a b
        • Very well spoken!

          Hear hear!

        • Re:whats the point? (Score:4, Interesting)

          by GMontag451 ( 230904 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:55AM (#6586191) Homepage
          No, it would be akin to paying someone $50 for a stack of Magic cards. If you had 10 mint Beta Black Lotuses (approx total value: $7000) and someone stole them, would you say "Oh well, it was just a game."? I sure hope not. Now say you have 20 foil Birds of Paradise in Magic:Online (total approx value: $1000) and someone hacks WotC's server and steals them all. Would you say it was just a game then? The line gets blurry, especially when you consider that you have to pay for packs of online cards just like you pay for packs for real cardboard.
          • No, it would be akin to paying someone $50 for a stack of Magic cards. If you had 10 mint Beta Black Lotuses (approx total value: $7000)

            Reality Alert

            These things that you are talking about are small pieces of printed cardboard. Their 'approx total value' does not exceed ten cents. If you paid more for them, that's entirely your problem.

            • Speaking as someone who wasted far too much of his money as a teenager on bits of cardboard (building an evil red/blue direct-damage/jujitsu deck), you're right. However, the number of Magic:TG tournaments with real money prizes can make it worthwhile buying cards if you're good enough.
            • These things that you are talking about are small pieces of printed cardboard. Their 'approx total value' does not exceed ten cents. If you paid more for them, that's entirely your problem.

              That stack of $100 bills is just a bunch of cloth paper. The 'approx total value' does not exceed $5. If you paid more for it, thats your problem.

          • You should draw your comparison even further. Anything has a value if someone else is prepared to pay for it. Our normal currency works that way - we only accept the usage of coloured paper as currency since banks are willing to guarantee their value. Anything can be used as a currency if the same applies - and it need not be banks - it's enough if _someone_ is willing to pay you for the items. Whether they are "virtual", a deck of gards or little bird dropplings is totally irrelevant.
    • Where did you find magic broad sword +2 vs Nose goblins? I'll trade you for it!
    • "People are just way too attached to their own self worth. It wouldn't be hard to throw in some arguments about artifical spirituality and psuedo-relegious behaviors associated with online gaming but I am out of scotch"

      Nope, it's just about money. I haven't paid for in-game items but I can see why some people would. And if I would lose my items because of a hacker, I'd be seriously pissed.

      Suppose you own a large virtual house in a desirable location on one of the game worlds of Ultima Online. A hac
    • I can no more own a magic broad sword +2 vs Nose goblins as i can own the number 7

      Are nose goblins kinda like underpants gnomes? I'd kill for a magic broadsword with a +2 against underpants gnomes!

      Speaking of gnomes, I'd also like a sword with a bonus against the little bastards that keep hiding the keys to my Accord. That'll fix their wagons but good...

  • Solution (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Julian Morrison ( 5575 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:50AM (#6585857)
    Require payment of damages - in the game's own virtual currency, "gold pieces" or whatever.

  • "Real" damages? Are you kidding? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by tgrigsby ( 164308 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @12:51AM (#6585860) Homepage Journal
    Ok, so let me get this straight. You played a game in which someone cheated. And now someone has to pay you for it? No, you go play a different game. This is covered in kindergarten here in the U.S.; I'm not sure how this particular life lesson is passed on in other countries.

    Look, everyone wants to get pissy when someone "wastes time". I spent X hours playing this, and you cheated me out of points/wins/lives/etc. Well, then you just go to the next game. Or you complain to the folks running the game and they sympathize and set you up with the stuff you say you lost. Or they don't because you'd be "wasting their time." And then you go play someone else's game and let them rot with their insecure gaming software. Vote with your participation and watch gaming software quality improve.

    But to try to track down and sue someone because they cost you time playing games is severely unrealistic.

    It occurs to me that people who see real damages in that situation need to tear themselves away from the computer and join the real world now and then.

    As for me.... I'm going to go sue the crap out of that guy that tripped me during the weekend warrior basketball game. Who knew there was money in getting cheated?

    • Good point. I wasted 2 hours watching a crappy film at the cinema and was cheated out of enjoyment. For some reason I don't expect my money back. Maybe my kindergarten worked after all.
      • In Germany, people sue travel agents if they think their holiday was less enjoyable than it could be (bad hotel, dirty beach, or sometimes even a late tour bus!), and what's scary: they often win...

        And, wasn't their even a case in the US, where the operators of a game show cheated by giving the more handsome candidate advance knowledge of the questions and answers. There was even a movie [imdb.com] made of the incident.

        And yes, if a movie is really bad, some people do try to demand their money back

        So there does ind

        • In Germany, people sue travel agents if they think their holiday was less enjoyable than it could be (bad hotel, dirty beach, or sometimes even a late tour bus!), and what's scary: they often win...

          People take less responsibility for their own lives now than before. Many unconsciously think that if they can just sue, complain and harass everybody else, everything will be neat and tidy the next time. If just everybody _else_ changes, then it'll "work itself out" somehow. The people around them is to be res
    • "Ok, so let me get this straight. You played a game in which someone cheated. And now someone has to pay you for it? No, you go play a different game. This is covered in kindergarten here in the U.S.; I'm not sure how this particular life lesson is passed on in other countries."

      This isn't about cheating, it's about hacking. I think there would be very few people who would think to sue someone who killed and robbed them in-game, or someone who used a clever scam to cheat them out of some money or items.
      • This isn't about cheating, it's about hacking. I think there would be very few people who would think to sue someone who killed and robbed them in-game, or someone who used a clever scam to cheat them out of some money or items. Yes, that is part of the game and part of the reason why people play.

        Hacking is another matter. Suppose someome hacked into a few systems and wiped all the prepaid call time off your cellphone account, and all your frequent flyer miles with the airline, and so on. You'd want them
    • This is covered in kindergarten here in the U.S. (...)

      You are so right. However, the world will never be the same after mankind discovered ways to sell, buy, and sue each other over ASCII strings used as Internet domain names.

    • Ok I'll bite. While I agree with you in most cases lets look at EQ specifically.

      I'm paying 13.95 a month to play on Verant/SOL servers. Part of that montly fee could be seen as a promise from Verant/SOL that every single time I log into the game the things I have accuired in game will be there.

      Enter A hacker who breakes into their servers (which I'm paying them to maintain) and deletes my stuff.

      Now according to you its tough luck on my part and I should just go find a new game. But my wallet is
    • You played a game in which someone cheated. And now someone has to pay you for it? No, you go play a different game.

      You get mugged on the street in your hometown and your wallet is stolen. Do you go to the police and try to get justice and get your wallet back, or do you just pick up and move to another town?
    • As for me.... I'm going to go sue the crap out of that guy that tripped me during the weekend warrior basketball game.

      I hope you're not looking forward to another one of those games... I stole the ball.

      But thats OK, right? Basketball is just a game, I mean, sure, you put money into the game by buying the ball, but its still just a game and the fact that you paid is irrelevant. Besides, your basketball should have had GPS and an explosive device which armed if I took it from the court, to prevent me fro

  • Both sides' virginity was upheld (Score:5, Funny)

    by Sagarian ( 519668 ) <(ude.tim.mula) (ta) (rellims)> on Friday August 01, 2003 @01:03AM (#6585900)
    unanimously

    by an undoubtely [poorly] HUNG jury.

  • Virtual money (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kiddygrinder ( 605598 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @01:16AM (#6585937)
    Don't you buy Virtual money everytime you use a bank? Wouldn't you be a little pissed if someone deleted your bank account and said it wasn't real anyways? Obviously this is different, but only because it's not worth as much as 'real money'
    • Don't you buy Virtual money everytime you use a bank?

      Nope. You're not buying anything. You're making a deposit. You still own that money, they're just holding it for you.

      Your bank can keep track of how much of your money they have electronically, or on a napkin, but it doesn't change the legal status of the money.

      Think about it in terms of a car, instead of money:
      You deposit your car at the bank. They keep it, use it, and pay you for its use, but you still own it. If someone erases your car fro
    • because the numbers in the bank system are backed by real currency. Not to mention the regulations around it which are there so you can use the money without every touching real money.

      I could also say, whats the difference between a dollar bill and a pie of paper? the government say the dollar is money.

  • Analogy? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fven ( 688358 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @01:50AM (#6586007)
    You and some colleagues are working on a document. The largest part of this document is stored on your company's file server. Someone with malicious intent cracks the server and the last weeks work (assuming regular backups here!) is lost.

    I think we all agree that this is a real loss. The loss can be quantified in the $time spent by you and your colleages x $wage working on the document plus any loss intrinsic to the data. If the data is stolen rarther than destroyed then damages associated with rival company having internal data etc need factoring in.

    But at the end of the day, you do whatever you can (restore from backup, restart work from what you have, possibly seek redress for stolen data, secure systems better in future).

    So if the analogy is valid (you and friends have spent hours working on a game), you accept a loss, do whatever you can and then get on with it.

    A second way to look at the legal situation here is to use an anthropological viewpoint. What are the native laws in the society (in this case the online one), it may be quite acceptable to steal (thief as an occupation comes to mind, danm those succubi).
    It is nearly always wrong to attempt to apply 'our' laws to another society - look historically at all the attempts to enforce new laws and ways of life on indigenous populations.

    I guess in summary, look at online RPGs as their own little microcosmic world and accept their minimal effect on our real world.
    • It is nearly always wrong to attempt to apply 'our' laws to another society - look historically at all the attempts to enforce new laws and ways of life on indigenous populations.

      Thank you, Picard, for pointing out that whenever mankind interferes in a primitive society, the results are invariably disastrous.

  • Not that suprising to me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Castaa ( 458419 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @01:54AM (#6586020) Homepage Journal
    You have to look at the buyers of EQ accounts to get the reasons behind the price differences.

    A buyer of a high level EQ account is most likely to be a person that wants a position of power and respect in the game. They want the to be the 'best'. Or near the top anyway.

    So much so, that they are willing to pay hundreds of real US dollars for it. This type of player is most likely a male player in real life. Power and sense of being respected (looked up to) is more important to male online gamers. A high percentage of male players (over 80%) play male avatars online. So there is going to be a higher demand for high level male avatars for EQ.

    In general, women play EQ for more of a sense of community and social interaction. These goals do not require a female player to purchase a high level EQ account. Also, there are only about 15-20% real life female players in EQ. So even if they were looking to buy an account there would be far fewer female buyers compared to male.

    Another interesting demographic is that only 1-2% of female EQ players play as males.

    Good source of info on this subject can be found here: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

  • It's all the same. (Score:4, Funny)

    by Mr. Self estruct ( 572947 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @01:56AM (#6586024)
    You guys.. it doesn't matter... even the FEMALE characters in EverQuest are guys....
  • ...You all could have gone to see this thing live, except for this:

    2003-07-24 18:54:47 Hacker Court: Mock Trial of a MMOG Hacker (articles,doj) (rejected)

    Anyway, it doesn't really surprise me that they came up with no decision. It does speak volumes as to how "busy" the American people are, though, that they would attribute value to the time taken to obtain an item garnered from a process that is supposed to be (by design) enjoyable by itself.

  • Tibia [tibia.com] is a fun and great online rpg for windows/linux with over 10 worlds to play in. Sadly the linux client isnt updated very often, so consider the win32 one anyway :-(. Check it out! [4players.de]

  • "Real" money are also just virtual (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Inoen ( 590519 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:56AM (#6586332)
    Has anyone thought abut the fact that "real" money have no value either? They are just symbols of the labour that went into obtaining them.
    Their value is in the trust we all have, that we can trade the money for tangible items of real worth.

    Just as the game designers can decide to create more of the very rare 20-in-the-world-only item, the people working at the mint can create more coins, notes - money. This would have dire consequences for the national economy - just as it would have dire consequences for the sales of the game.

    My point is that virtual money are just as real (or unreal) as real-world money. Both of them are just symbols of value. They are not value in themselves. And yes, both of them can be traded for items with a real value (real in Marx' and Smith's sense).

    Now the real world money can be used in more places than virtual money; you can use any currency almost anywhere in the world, if you can find a bank. But you would need to go through the pains of trading on ebay in order to exchange your virtual money to real money or vice versa.

  • duh (Score:1)

    by Kenard ( 540102 )
    there's the virtual world and the *physical* world. The term Real World is too narrow.
    If you talk to someone in a virtual world you are really talking to them (although "chat" maybe a better word for it). Just what's so not real about the virtual world that the physical one is so much more real? press c, crouch in the virtual world. Bend legs, crouch in the physical world.

  • What's the freakin' point? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "excellent analysis of gender inequality between male and female Everquest avatars." I can't think of a more pointless thing to study. Is this guy pursuing a doctorate in Rabid Liberalism? Pfffffft!

  • Does the statute of limitations cover (Score:3, Funny)

    by curtisk ( 191737 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:41AM (#6586892) Homepage Journal
    Does the statute of limitations cover the "crimes" and "damages" herein? I hope so, as I don't want to be suddenly brought up on charges on some "incidents" that occured during the first year of UO [ultimaonline.com]. What kind of penalty does 1st and 2nd degree PKing and looting and dismembering the corpse carry? And I'm a changed man today, but I also made the legs into human jerky and sold and/or ate it, back when that was still possible. I know, I'm ashamed of my criminal past, but I've turned over a new leaf.

    What you don't believe me?!?!?! *Vas Ort Flam* *In Nox* *Corp Por* *Corp Por* *Corp Por*

  • Ok I'll grant you being without your +9 vs orges simitar is a loss but what is the value of that loss. Could you have legaly sold the simitar in the real world? In everquest no, so there is no resale loss to you. What is the cost of replacing the item? Nothing, the item is virtual and can be perfectly recreated an infinite number of times.

    You could claim being without you +9 Vs orges simitar for a time reduced your enjoyability but the idiot who yells at the screen during a movie reduces yor enjoability as

  • gee.. (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by geekoid ( 135745 )
    you went to a place where most of the people play games. And they felt it was a real loss if someone hacked there game. imagine my surprise.

    Next up, we got o the golf range to see if golfers feel its a loss if a passing car honks its horn while they try to take a shot.

    "excellent analysis of gender inequality between male and female Everquest avatars)"

    you keep using that word...I don't think it means what you think it means.

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