d20 License Revision Creates Controversy 46
travail_jgd writes "Wizards of the Coast, the makers of Dungeons and Dragons and the owners of the popular d20 license, have made some changes that are very unpopular in the RPG community. The new clauses allows WotC to censor d20-branded books with sexual, excessively violent, or other questionable content by revoking the book's d20 license: 'Wizards of the Coast may terminate this License immediately... if it deems, in its sole discretion, that your use of the Licensed Articles does not meet the above standards.' (The full listing can be found in a 12 KB RTF file.) Needless to say, people aren't happy. BTW, Wizard's own 'Book of Vile Darkness' violates most of the new rules." There are further details about this change, which only affects "any work carrying the d20 logo", over at GamingReport.com.
Book of Vile Darkness (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think I agree with their new stance, but I do see where it's coming from.
Re:Book of Vile Darkness (Score:1)
Why? Because of all the Flak they were getting over these ungodly concepts. The focus from the game shifted from 'role-play whatever you like' to 'good vs. evil' with the players being the good guys. And the monsters... Well all lower plane denizens had to go to ma
Re:Book of Vile Darkness (Score:2)
So they made a profit off the Political Correctness...which is kinda...well...lame
Re:Book of Vile Darkness (Score:2)
In The Beginning, you had Demons, Devils and so on, many named for, or drawn from, ones present in various histories/myths.
Then, they changed them to Tanar'ri, Baalor (or something like that) and 'generified' them. At least they stopped calling them 'Type VII' and so on...
Re:Book of Vile Darkness (Score:2)
The Book of Vile Darkness isn't about devils and deamons, those are present in the core Monster Manual. The BoVD deals with things like drug abuse, rape, torture, etc... things that are TRUELY vile in other words.
Gaaa! (Score:4, Funny)
Don't scare me like that! I thought I was going to have to pay more for my d20s!
Re:Gaaa! (Score:1)
There is a reason (Score:5, Insightful)
If you do think about it though it's obvious that they're only trying to protect their own asses in case a lawsuit came up over the content of licensed games or something else like that. God knows people are trying hard enough with video games.
Re:There is a reason (Score:4, Informative)
The RPG market has been deluged with games using the d20 game system, and I couldn't be more disappointed with the fact; I really enjoyed alternates like Dream Pod 9's Silhouette, or even White Wolf's systems over D&D's strictly class-based straitjacketed templates. While 3E has more latitude than previous versions of the game, it's still a very rigid, boring system for me that plays more like an overblown wargame than a storytelling game.
The game is what you make it. (Score:2)
"strictly class-based" (Score:3, Informative)
For example, Call of Cthulhu d20 doesn't have classes.
Some Info -- OGL vs. STL (Score:5, Informative)
There are two licenses involved here, the Open Gaming License (OGL) and the D20 System Trademark License (STL).
The OGL is the open-source style license under which the core rules of 3rd edition D&D were published. It's more or less GPL-like, in that it requires derivative works of OGL'ed content to be themselves released under the OGL (Though it allows publishers to designate non-game-mechanical sections of their work as non-open "Product Identity".)
To use material covered by the OGL, you're required to agree that you won't use anybody's trademarks without their permission, even as an indication of compatibility. In other words, you can't slap a big "Use this book with 3rd Ed. D&D" sticker on your product.
What you can do, however, is make use of the other license put out by WotC, the STL. This license allows you to use the d20 logo and the phrase "Dungeons and Dragons" in a very specific, limited manner. This is the license which has been updated to include the new content restrictions.
Re:Some Info -- OGL vs. STL (Score:2)
It seems like people should avoid using both licenses now.
Re:Some Info -- OGL vs. STL (Score:4, Insightful)
Dear god, no!
The OGL can't be meaningfully edited or changed without an act of SCOTUS; unless the GPL and the concept of copyleft itself are nullified, the OGL will stand forever.
The d20STL _only_ covers that "d20" logo that you see on the back of most RPG products now--it's an indicator of compatability with the World's Most Popular Fantasy RPG.
A lot of publishers DO drop it--Mutants and Masterminds and the Everquest RPG are two notable products to do so. Heck, most of the big publishers could drop it right now, and they wouldn't even notice a dip in sales.
The d20 logo matters to the little guys who want distributors to carry their product, game stores to stock it next to D&D, and gamers to pick it up and use it in their D&D, d20-Modern, Everquest, etc. games.
There's essay upon essay about the network theories behind the d20 System, and why it's a valuable thing to put on a product that's created using the OGL and the SRD.
They're different licenses, and both give different value--but if you want to stop using one, stop using the d20STL.
(And, while I'm distributing clue to
Re:Some Info -- OGL vs. STL (Score:2)
Re:Some Info -- OGL vs. STL (Score:2, Interesting)
You cannot use the d20STL without using the OGL; use of the OGL is one of the requirements for the d20STL.
If you're not using either license, you can say "Use this book with 3rd Ed. D&D" without restriction (provided it's clear that the owners of the D&D trademark do not endorse your product).
Theoretica
moot point. (Score:4, Insightful)
Censorship equals bad, but it is their product, and If I want to make a bestiality RPG I can certainly publish it on my own if i so desire, I just can't expect WOTC to give me a thumbs up by bestowing their lable on it. I think WOTC has been more than fair and generous with the licensing (far better than TSR ever was) and getting bent over this is silly.
Re:moot point. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:moot point. (Score:3, Informative)
ToEE is the first computer game to use the D&D 3.5 rules. The module has been updated to 3.5 rules, but is otherwise a faithful implementation of the original module (i.e. you will be able to use the original module as a walkthrough if you wish). Troika have expanded the roles of several NPCs, etc - just as any good DM would have done - and have been in semi-regular contact with Gary Gygax to ensure that the gam
Re:moot point. (Score:1)
Re:moot point. (Score:2)
When ToEE (the module) came out, there were no other races - only the stock-standard races. Remember that this is Greyhawk - not Forgotten Realms. Drow are a mysterious, unknown quantity
And yes - all the classes are lifted straig
Re:moot point. (Score:1)
(Warning: this review, and certainly this game, is not work-safe. Or good for your faith in humanity. The game is a pretty tough thing to overcome for a zero-censorship stance - I think I'd rather see kids reading Mein Kampf. Seriously. But the review is damn funny, of a really unpleasant game.)
Re:moot point. (Score:2)
MOD PARENT DOWN (Score:2)
Why the hell nobody gets this bastard down to -1 troll/flamebait?
It's about the same comparison as "a bunch of egyptians similar similar terrorist sand niggers".
Oddly enough, BoVD is in compliance (Score:4, Informative)
The big controversy isn't that they want quality guidelines--it's that Valar Publishing, makers of the Book of Erotic Fantasy, broke the rules (really, really, REALLY broke the rules--which they really didn't have to do!), and the rules were changed stealthfully to this new "WotC can kill your product if we find it immoral" stance.
Every producer of d20 products, aside from Wizards of the Coast themselves, has expressed doubt and worry over what the new license changes might mean for them.
Re:Oddly enough, BoVD is in compliance (Score:1)
Re:Oddly enough, BoVD is in compliance (Score:2, Insightful)
(The OGL prohibits using anyone else's trademark without permission, and claiming compatability with anyone without permission. The d20STL gives some very specific allowances to use the d20 logo, the "d20 System" trademark, and the Dungeons & Draogns trademarks. Oh, and the OGL con
meh (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't really care how much better the 3rd ed. rules were better than the 2nd ed. rules. I had all that junk memorized, and it was tossed out like an old glove.
Skill incrementing systems are faster, easier and better than levelling systems. Systems where one doesn't need to use a table and just need to add numbers end up being faster, and it opens up my gaming groups to people that aren't prone to memorizing tables. And it puts the GM power in my hands, not the hands of some g**d**ned chart.
Even the Victory Point system for Fading Suns is better than the d20 systems. Heck, even Shadowrun's system is faster than d20 systems. While I'm at it, even Traveller lends itself better to faster-paced roleplaying than... okay, I'm done.
There, I said it, it must be true.
Re:meh (Score:1)
And how do you measure relative power of characters?
Skill-based systems are fun--heck, any game can be fun--but they're not automatically superior to level-based games.
And
Re:meh (Score:2)
Keep track of how many skill points you have ? Levels are artificial and (imho) if you're worried about the levels for balancing, chances are you have too much combat planned anyway.
There's a lot to be said for conceptually simple mechanics. I've taught D6 systems to complete noobs, and they really appreciate the "roll what it says on your character sheet" system. It may not be faster than D&D3.5, but it's plenty fast, no reference materials needed
Re:meh (Score:2)
Games are artificial. So what?
Re:meh (Score:1)
I agree. Simple-structure systems like Storyteller or d6 are fairly simple, and let folk not worry about the rules and just worry about RPing.
Unfortunatly, they can get a bit hariy when you do things like multiple actions and defense
Re:meh (Score:2)
I will disagree about the sophistication of the d6 combat system; I've never even looked at the rules to any Storyteller game. In WEG
Re:meh (Score:1)
The rule of thumb for me is what they've been able to accomplish in the past. Or, as others said, have them tally the experience you dole out.
they're not automatically superior to level-based games
Right, they're superior because of the reasons that I listed.
they're certainly not faster
Dice rollers are available for palm pilot, and I allowed them if the app could show a history of dice rolled. The same can be said of 3e as well, naturally.
wait...traveller faster than what? (Score:1)
Disclaimer:...however this is a pretty hazy memory from the rules of the 1980s and I did hear that newer versions of the rules have been published. Perhaps the newer rules
Re:wait...traveller faster than what? (Score:1)
"okay, your flechette round punctures his..."
*rolls more dice*
"thyroid gland, at a rate of..."
*rolls more dice*
"2459 feet per second, causing him to"
*frenzied rolling*
"be knocked backwards, with legs splayed out as per diagram #4 (holds up book),"
*rolls more dice*
"killing him twice over..." a
Remember they're owned by Hasbro now! (Score:3, Interesting)
Mostly this looks like a Hasbro lawyer CYA thing. Like other posters said, the aren't after the niche stuff anymore with D&D. Every mall bookstore sells something because it's Hasbro at the top of the food chain. That means anything with the logo could reflect on not just Wizards, but Barbie, Fisher-Price...get the idea. There's not much room for controversy in the toy market.
WIzards used to be wierder (Score:1)
It was an interesting article...
Re:WIzards used to be wierder (Score:1)
Explains why an ex-VP and bunch of their staff would write the Book of Erotic Fantasy, though.
Re:Remember they're owned by Hasbro now! (Score:1)
Every mall bookstore carried the TSR AD&D stuff 14 years ago. Book stores could care less about Hasbro, what matters is whether or not the books sell. The only thing they have done recently is expand their rpg section significantly so that you don't have to go to a game shop to get some of the less popular stuff (and given that I've seen
Dice Karma (Score:2)
Trademarks vs. SRD & OGL (Score:4, Interesting)
First off, I'd like to say that I do understand WotC's attitude regarding the d20 trademark. It is essential that they maintain certain levels of deceny. As to whether or not they released the Book of Vile Darkness and to what level that goes, it was very clear that it was to be sold only to mature audience members (and some gaming stores would NOT sell it to anyone under 17), and they caught flack from long-time D&D-associated individuals.
Additionally, we have to consider that by putting the logo on a product, it is to associated it with D&D (or at least that's how most parents will see it). If you have a clear disclaimer on the cover, fine, but otherwise, you're lumping it in with the same people who make Pokemon cards. WotC's parent, Hasbro, might not like to see some company they have next to no control over coming out with a product filled with erotica that some parents will associated with those people who make Pokemon cards. I also see a lot of potential flack from owners of other brands (e.g. Star Wars) that have licensed those brands to WotC.
Can you still produce D&D compatible stuff without the d20 license? Yes! Matured and experience gamers will know what the SRD is. So call it SRD-fantasy compatible or SRD-modern compatible. Heck, get together and create a logo and have that logo owned by the Open Gaming Foundation for all I care. I won't buy stuff that's overly indecent, but if it's detailed, almost clinical in nature, and gives me rules to pick and choose for realism, I might buy it.
Having been published using the SRD, it's very, very important to not violate those things that WotC explicitly says no to and to avoid, for the most part where possible, things the SRD doesn't say yes to. Basically, create individually, and use the SRD and nothing else to look at, and you'll do well. Come up with something really unique and useful like Expeditious Retreat [citymax.com] did and you'll be amazed at how quickly everyone likes your stuff.