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PC Games (Games) PlayStation (Games) Entertainment Games

Game Retailers' Return Policies Criticized 159

Posted by simoniker from the returning-my-atari-2600 dept.
Thanks to GamersWithJobs for their opinion piece discussing the allegedly harsh return policies for videogame retailers. According to the author, "There is no reasonable reason... why a [non-defective, but unwanted] product in such condition should not be returnable, and any retailer who refuses such should not be burdened with customers or money." However, as a forum reply points out: "...if the policy on returns is too liberal, game stores will turn into free game rental outlets for people who don't want to pay for software." Have retailers been changing policies, and where does the balance lie on this subject?
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Game Retailers' Return Policies Criticized More

Game Retailers' Return Policies Criticized

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  • Reminded me of when I was a kid... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by heldlikesound ( 132717 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @05:55PM (#7028540) Homepage
    I was about 13 years old, and bought Zelda: 4 Seasons (or something like that) for my Game Boy, I beat it in like 2 days and wondered why I had spent all that money.

    So, I got my mom to take me back to K-Mart, presented my receipt and the game, in it's packaging, but obviously opened. They asked my reason for returning it and I simply told them I was unsatisfied with my purchase, they gave me my money back and that was that. I remember feeling quite good about myself on the ride home.

    How things have changed...

    • Re:Reminded me of when I was a kid... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Slowping ( 63788 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:03PM (#7028612) Homepage Journal

      back to K-Mart, presented my receipt and the game, in it's packaging, but obviously opened. They asked my reason for returning it and I simply told them I was unsatisfied with my purchase, they gave me my money back and that was that


      I think you (and K-Mart) had it right on. I think that a reasonable window for full refund is perfectly fine. After a window for returns, say seven days, then it can slip back into something like exchanges only.

      I think that the few times where customers will take advantage of the return policy in bad faith (playing it for 6 days and then returning it) will only be a small burden compared to the extra customers and sales you will gain because they feel more comfortable purchasing with confidence.

      I know that there are many times I've held onto my money simply because I wasn't sure if I'd still like the game after two days, and the return policy sucked. And there are plenty of times where I purchased a game on a hunch, and the game turned out to be quite fun and worth the money. I'm sure I'm not alone, and I'm sure many more games would get sold with a better return policy.

      It all comes back to treating customers right... Many games stores need to learn from the RIAA's mistakes. ... but I'm starting to digress now so I'll stop.

      • Re:Reminded me of when I was a kid... (Score:5, Informative)

        by MrResistor ( 120588 ) <.peterahoff. .at. .gmail.com.> on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:52PM (#7029030) Homepage
        You have to consider the other side of it though.

        I have a friend who is a Mac guy. Several years ago he wanted to go to a big LAN party, but at the time pretty much every game anybody was playing wasn't available for MAC. His solution? He went to Fry's on Friday and put a nice gaming system on his credit card, loaded it up with pirated games he got from his brother, went to the LAN party, and on Monday took it back for a full refund.

        People really do that kind of stuff.

        I know plenty of people who would happily buy a PC game, install it, run the no-cd crack, and take it back for a refund. In that context, it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that many stores won't take back software in an opened box. It sucks for those of us that are honest, but unfortunately that's the world we live in.

        • I *really* hate people who have a Playstation or similar that breaks, purchase a new one, swap the Playstations, and return the broken one. *That's* scummy.
          • Yeah, there are some real scum out there.

            Once, at work, we picked up a few DIMMs of RAM from a large electronics chain. Someone had bought the RAM, steamed off (or maybe just pealed off) the serial number, stuck the labels on 3 smaller DIMMs, and returned them!

            He or she got several free upgrades from 64Mb to 128Mb sticks - and wasted a lot of others people's time in the process! ARGH.
      • Your RIAA comparison is WAY out of line. The RIAA is an organization of "content" providers who are dedicated to maintaining an arguably dying industry - price-fixing, ridiculous lawsuits, etc. are their stock in trade. Video game stores on the other hand, are RETAILERS operating on the margins. They actually buy those games and then resell them. There's a reason that there are virtually no sales on video games (sometimes PC games can go for $5 off MSRP but never the same thing for console games unless
        • Books are different. With a receipt, virtually all booksellers will give cash refunds for books still in new condition.

          The difference is that a book isn't easily or economically copyable. Basically NOBODY takes back CDs or casettes for refund, because they are easy to copy.

          In my view, I think it's a fairly reasonable policy for a store to apply to videogames and other software.

          However, it is interesting to note that EBGames, or whatever they call themselves now, appears to be the most successful game-f

        • The service you are thinking of is GameFly [gamefly.com].
      • I think you (and K-Mart) had it right on. I think that a reasonable window for full refund is perfectly fine. After a window for returns, say seven days, then it can slip back into something like exchanges only.

        I think that the few times where customers will take advantage of the return policy in bad faith (playing it for 6 days and then returning it) will only be a small burden compared to the extra customers and sales you will gain because they feel more comfortable purchasing with confidence.

        I agree,

    • Actually, Atari historians (however you get that job) repeatedly point at Sears as a factor in the fall of the video game market. See, aparently, when they let loose the utter shit-bomb that was E.T., Sears had a liberal return policy based around pleasing the customer. Because of this, thousands upon thousands of kids returned E.T., sticking Atari with the bill, instead of suffering with them as they would have had to do today.

  • It's Real Simple Folks... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dr. Bent ( 533421 ) <<ben> <at> <int.com>> on Monday September 22, 2003 @05:55PM (#7028544) Homepage
    If the box is not open, you can return it.

    If it's not, you can exchange it for the exact same game.

    There's a reason game studios release demo versions. If you like it, and it runs on your computer, buy it. Otherwise, caveat emptor.

    • Re:It's Real Simple Folks... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Firehawke ( 50498 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @05:58PM (#7028577) Journal
      Not always possible. Many games don't have a demo at all, and those that do don't always have accurate demos. It took Epic two or more months to release an updated demo of UT2K3 that accurately represented the final product instead of being the pre-release open beta.

      Then you've got console games, where demos are only obtained through magazines and are often inaccurate as well because they're 6-month-old betas in many cases.

      • One current example is Savage [s2games.com] from s2games [s2games.com].
        They don't offer a downloadable demo.

        However, I was able to convince a coworker that we should each buy a copy to play online (we're both getting a bit bored with UT2K3).

        Apparently it messed up his sound on WinXP and it wouldn't even run on my Red Hat 9 until a beta patch was issued.
        This is a game on store shelves!

        Fortunately for s2games we are patient and have agreed to wait for it to get better, but unfortunately for them I have felt compelled to write th

        • My sympathies. This is precisely the problem-- and for those who say "read the reviews" you get cases like the recent pulled review of Savage on Gamespot..

          The consumer really CAN'T win in this case.
      • "Then you've got console games, where demos are only obtained through magazines and are often inaccurate as well because they're 6-month-old betas in many cases."
        Don't forget that there are also consoles where demos aren't easily produced or available at all - like the cartridge-based Game Boy Advance.
        • Ergh.. lost my first post to the 2-minute wait. Let's try that again.

          Yeah, and the only games that ever make it onto the demo kiosks are the really big titles. Metroid Fusion? Castlevania? Like I really needed to play them to know they were going to be an immediate grab for my collection.

          By the way, nice link-- being a huge Rockman fan myself, I'm going to go sign that right now.

    • Not so simple... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by NetDanzr ( 619387 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:39PM (#7028927)
      I wish it was so simple. However, recently I noticed an increase in games that don't work, even though the demos work fine. In most cases, this is being caused by the excessive copy protection included in the game. Here's my two most recent examples:

      Temple of Elemental Evil (Troika Studios/Infogrames). Infogrames is notorios for its copy protection (using SecuROM), which prevented plenty of players to enjoy games like Neverwinter Nights. ToEE doesn't fare much better; if I didn't have two computers, I wouldn't be able to play it as the CD doesn't like my CD-RW drive.

      Homeworld 2 (Sierra). Upon contacting Sierra tech support, I was told that it was my responsibility to get a compatible CD drive. All the hardware requirements on the box mention is a 16x CD-ROM, and not even the readme file mentions any other CD-ROM requirements. So how am I supposed to know whether my CD-ROM is compatible without opening the box and trying to install the game?

      I have pretty much stopped buying new games, limiting myself to independent titles downloadable from the Internet and the occassional adventure from The Adventure Comnpany. As such, I can talk only about these two recent examples. However, there are many more instances when a game doesn't run at the stated hardware requirements. That is something one can find out only by opening the box and installing the game. In such a case, your solution would simply lock gamers into an endless cycle where they are unable to return a game that doesn't work.

      • Re:Not so simple... (Score:2, Informative)

        by xoff00 ( 594043 )
        Its reasons like these that make me glad of GameFly [gamefly.com] for my Xbox, and the fact I seem to play more of those games than PC games, now-a-days...

      • Re:Not so simple... (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Repton ( 60818 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @09:35PM (#7030123) Homepage

        I don't know what the laws are like where you live, but here in New Zealand, under those circumstances, you would be entitled to a full refund, and the shop doesn't have any choice in the matter.

        Why? Because you bought a product, with a reasonable expectation that it would work, and it didn't.

        (the relevant bit of the act is probably here [consumer-m...ry.govt.nz], since you said your computer fit the minimum requirements)

    • "There's a reason game studios release demo versions. If you like it, and it runs on your computer, buy it. Otherwise, caveat emptor."

      I'm surprised this criticism isn't aimed at the RIAA. They basically have a setup where you're expected to make a purchase without really knowing what all you're buying, and you have no guarantee of satisfaction.

      I, for the most part, agree with parent poster. The Games Industry has gone a long way to make sure that you know what you're getting with a game purchase. The
    • Demo's are not always released for games either. BIG games too.

      I also take issue with the comment in the article about stores becoming free game rental sites which is a load of bollocks basically.

      MOST games these days come with either Safedisc or Securom copy protection, meaning the average home user flat out can't copy them on their home machine, so this point is null and void. It wouldn't give free reign to copying since the average user couldn't copy the game anyway.

      Those who DO know the way around it
      • I also take issue with the comment in the article about stores becoming free game rental sites which is a load of bollocks basically.

        I wasn't sure how to read your comments following this. If they were in support of this statement, then I think you missed the point of the author's argument about retail stores becoming free rental outlets. If you look at it in terms of console games, copying them isn't something the average person has the skill or inclination to do. However, they might have the inclination
    • ah but when the product is 'defective' in every box the game retailer has.

      that is, it doesn't work like it says on the box.

      now, if toyota made a defective car you think they would get away just by giving another one that didn't move to the customer???
    • If the box is not open, you can return it.

      If it's not, you can exchange it for the exact same game.

      The problem with this is that you can return the opened copy for a copy that is closed. Then just have your buddy turn around without the reciept and return it for a refund.

      I've only done this once and it was because the game destroyed my c:\ drive (ahem... myth II).

      Only once have I had a retailer actually open the copy that was given to me in exchange. I immediately understood the reason why.

    • Re:It's Real Simple Folks... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Twylite ( 234238 ) <twylite&crypt,co,za> on Tuesday September 23, 2003 @04:21AM (#7031942) Homepage

      I recently bought myself a copy of Black & White. It was on a special and I picked it up for (the equivalent of) $9. It didn't work -- the copy protection doesn't like my system.

      So I returned the game to the store, but got the "guilty until proven innocent, which is impossible to prove" treatment. That's a good time to accept the $9 loss and cut it there ... but I didn't.

      Over the next week I spend around 12 hours fiddling with my system, downloading cracks, downloading emulators, downloading patches, in the vain hope of getting the damn game to work. And you know what? I've come to accept that the only way I'm going to get it to work is to cough up $1000 for a new computer.

      Even if I had tried a demo version (is there one?) I couldn't have known that the copy protection on the real product would break it.

  • If the game's open... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SandSpider ( 60727 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @05:55PM (#7028545) Homepage Journal
    ...only give a replacement copy for defective games. Honestly, it's not that hard. There's plenty of other examples of the retail world of this working just fine. Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty much a free rental place. Don't like it? Rent the games from Gamefly [gamefly.com], the Netflix of the gaming world. Doesn't help with PC games, but for any console games, it's really cool. As seen on Penny Arcade.

    =Brian
    • So, return it, get the shrinkwrapped copy, then return the shrinkwrapped copy for a refund.

      Easy.

      Steven V.

    • Most PC games are defective when released (ie: they need patches). I took Sin back after only one evening of trying to get it to run. Now, it seems like I buy a game and if it has technical problems, wait for a patch. If there never is a patch (Freelancer anyone, Mech Commander 2 - both MS games - MS never seems to patch games), then I'm just out the $50 and have no recourse. The end result is that I don't buy freshly released games anymore. I treat them like service packs; wait 3 months for everyone els
    • Don't like it? Rent the games from Gamefly [gamefly.com], the Netflix of the gaming world.

      No, they're the GreenCine [greencine.com] of the gaming world. I don't mean they're the also-ran: Gamefly and GreenCine operate out of the same building and share some infrastructure, iirc.
    • " Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty much a free rental place."

      Does that really happen? If the game's satisfactory, who's going to return it by the time the policy expires?

      I'm sorry, but I've heard this reasoning a million times and I've never personally witnessed an actual event where people have, en masse, taken advantage of policies like that.

      People are, for the most part, honest. If they weren't, then clothing stores would be out of business. Imagine buying some clothes, returning them, buying new clot
      • Having worked in retail, I can say that people do in fact do this (mostly old ladies, for some reason), but not really that many and stores just eat the loss, because customer satisfaction from the liberal return policy is worth it. I think the problem here is that in "normal" retail, theres a long history of customer service and satisfaction that stores can't reasonably break without alot of ill will. In the games, and especially the computer industry, people are so used to things not working as described
    • ummm this is great for console games, but Gamefly doesn't rent PC games. I don't play console games =) so this still sucks

  • Well.. (Score:3, Informative)

    by Firehawke ( 50498 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @05:55PM (#7028547) Journal
    Every store I've been to in the past.. oh.. five or six years has had a exchange-only-on-open-box policy, except on games like Everquest or Planetside where the box pretty much says no resale-- those games I can't return if the box has been opened since they can't rewrap the box and resell it.

    I'm guessing that's pretty much the standard everywhere in the USA at the very least. It can be frustrating when you buy a complete dud...

  • The Real News (Score:5, Funny)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @05:57PM (#7028560) Journal
    Title of the next article: Game Players Piracy Policy Criticized

    I don't think that retailers are very interested in being taken advantage of. If we stop pirating games, I am sure they will be quite willing to liberalize their return policy.
    • Yes, let's throw the baby out with the bathwater. I mean, I figure it's our fault they can't sell enough games, right? I know Electronics Boutique has been losing money for many years - it's a wonder they even stay open! And don't even get me started on Epic Games - when was the last time anybody there bought a Ferrari or a Porsche? I can't imagine what I was thinking, expecting decent customer service when there are all those nasty pirates out there!

      --

      If copyrights are so important, how do people mak

  • Tough Problem (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Quinn ( 4474 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:09PM (#7028646) Homepage
    Would it be alright if I bought a book, read it, didn't like it, and returned it? The words are in my head-- I've consumed it, so can I return it? Can I vomit up a consumed cheeseburger and demand my money back from McDonald's?

    I don't see that the retailers have a choice. You installed the game. You have the CD key. If the publisher didn't implement restrictive copyright protections (also whined about), then you have it and can continue to play it.

    There's a rental industry. There are demos. What do you want, exactly?

    Wait for the reviews, buy warily, and remember which companies screwed you with a bad title. Don't buy from them again.
    • Would it be alright if I bought a book, read it, didn't like it, and returned it?

      Generally it is. Borders allows you to return purchases within 30 days.

      As for PC games, 1 major problem is the need for post-release patches. You play a demo and notice a bug or two, but you see that a patch has been released. You rush to the store and buy the game, and much to your chagrin, the patch doesn't help. The game still has problems. Great. You can't return it even though the company sold a product loaded wit

    • Re:Tough Problem (Score:2, Interesting)

      by JExtine ( 691267 )
      If I consume part of a cheeseburger, and it makes me WANT to throw up, I better be able to my money back. Same with videogames...
    • And if you buy a game as a gift for a friend or a relative? What if you do buy a game for li'l cousin Timmy only to find out he already has it? Someone above mentioned stores having an echange-only-on-open-box policy, and that doesn't sound that bad. But if the game really really really really sucks, I demand my money back. None of this exchange-only bullshit. At most times there's only 1 game out that I really want, and if that game sucks, the money can be better spent on hanging out with friends.

      An

      • Re:Tough Problem (Score:2, Insightful)

        by geoffspear ( 692508 )
        Of course, these days bookstores are happy to let you sit there reading their books and drinking coffee all day and not buying the books at all.

        And they probably actually sell more books because of that policy.

    • How exactly does your average home user download a 70Mb demo over a 56k modem ...?

      ... and that's a BIG if on the "restrictive copyright protections".

  • The GameStop policy on used games works! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cjmnews ( 672731 ) <cjmnews@yahoo.com> on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:09PM (#7028650) Homepage
    If you pick up a used game, try it and hate it, return it within 7 days for a full refund. Of course if it is defective the same rule applies.

    They do this with the console games at least. I'd buy a lot less games if this wasn't the policy.

    For NEW games they'll buy it from you at a used price, which is ok (75-25% depending on the age of the game, and number of used copies), but it would be better if they would have the same policy of the used games for the new.

  • Bad Games (Score:4, Interesting)

    by PktLoss ( 647983 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:09PM (#7028652) Homepage Journal
    Ive dropped some money on some really crappy games, and to be honest, I probably would have asked for a refund. Blood Wake for the X-Box for one example, I new within hours that I didnt want it, but was stuck with the purchase.

    HMV in my area recently began their no-return policy on opened products to combat rampant burn & return customers (I am a good friend of the General Manager, who spoke of customers who repeatedly puchased 10+ cds to return the next weekend). Reasons like this justify these policies quite well in my opinion.

    Lax return policies for games with online play can be a slap in the face for second round purchasers, imagine buying StarCraft or the like, just to get kicked off line frequently because your CD-Key is used elsewhere.

    I think we are left with two equally distastefull alternatives.
    - Exchanges only on defective merchandise, no refunds, no exceptions
    - DRM Crusted software, store can confirm through online database that software has been removed from your system, and that you are no longer a rightfull owner.
  • Unfortunately as long as games are easy to pirate (that goes for CDs and DVDs too) I don't think you'll see return policies loosened up anytime soon. Read reviews from several different sources and talk with other folks before spending $50 on a game. (I found out the hard way when I bought Asheron's Call 2, heh)

  • Idea (Score:4, Interesting)

    by August_zero ( 654282 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:13PM (#7028685)
    Simple solution

    You can return any game, for any reason but if it isn't for the same game (i.e. its a case of "I don't like it") You can only swap for a different game once, after that, your second title like it or not is yours no exchanges except in cases of defective games and even then it can only be for the same product.

  • where we have the UCC which says they have to give you a refund (yeah, theres restrictions. no, joe gamer isnt affected by any of them). they dont like it? tough titties. Always take a copy with you when you go to return a game. has never failed.
    • Sparr0 said: "where we have the UCC which says they have to give you a refund (yeah, theres restrictions. no, joe gamer isnt affected by any of them). they dont like it? tough titties. Always take a copy with you when you go to return a game. has never failed."

      Could you be more specific? I would seem you're talking about the Uniform Commercial Code. I looked it up (yay Google) and found it online here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc.table.html

      Looking under section 2, Sales, offered no obvious example
      • On a similar tangent, one thing that might be worth looking at is the license that most games have these day. I seem to recall that most of them state that, if you don't agree to the terms you should return the product to the retailer for a full refund. Could you then take back a game and claim that you don't agree to the terms of the license and want you money back? And, when the inevitable refusal comes, go back to the company that made the game and demand your money back? If they refuse, wouldn't it

      • Re:UCC = Uniform Commercial Code? (Score:4, Informative)

        by Sparr0 ( 451780 ) <sparr0@gmail.com> on Monday September 22, 2003 @08:50PM (#7029844) Homepage Journal
        I am going to try to be concise. It will appear that I am leaving many things out, because I am. The UCC is long, like all laws. Feel free to add to this if theres anything you think contradicts it. Please note that I am breaking many heirarchies, do NOT assume that (1) and then (b) means its 1b, it could be 7b, or from a different section. I will keep actually adjacent sections together and nonadjacent seperated by a blank line. The bold italic part near the end is the most important part, so you can skip to it if you just want the answer to your search.


        (1) Rejection of goods must be within a reasonable time after their delivery or tender. It is ineffective unless the buyer seasonably notifies the seller .

        (c) the buyer has no further obligations with regard to goods rightfully rejected.

        (1) Acceptance of goods occurs when the buyer
        (a) after a reasonable opportunity to inspect the goods signifies to the seller that the goods are conforming         or that he will take or retain them in spite of their non-conformity; or
        (b) fails to make an effective rejection (subsection (1) of Section 2-602 ), but such acceptance does not occur until the buyer has had a reasonable opportunity to inspect them;

        (1) The buyer may revoke his acceptance of a lot or commercial unit whose non-conformity substantially impairs its value to him if he has accepted it
        (b) without discovery of such non-conformity if his acceptance was reasonably induced either by the difficulty of discovery before acceptance         or by the seller's assurances.

        (1) Where the seller fails to make delivery or repudiates or the buyer rightfully rejects or justifiably revokes acceptance then with respect to any goods involved, and with respect to the whole if the breach goes to the whole contract (Section 2-612 ), the buyer may cancel and whether or not he has done so may in addition to recovering so much of the price as has been paid
        (a) "cover" and have damages under the next section as to all the goods affected whether or not they have been identified to the contract

        (1) After a breach within the preceding section the buyer may "cover" by making in good faith and without unreasonable delay any reasonable purchase of or contract to purchase goods in substitution for those due from the seller .
        (2) The buyer may recover from the seller as damages the difference between the cost of cover and the contract price together with any incidental or consequential damages as hereinafter defined (Section 2-715 ), but less expenses saved in consequence of the seller's breach.


        I would like to reiterate some of the bold parts, paraphrased. If you dont like it, you can reject it. If you dont reject it but it doesnt conform to your expectations, you can revoke your acceptance. If you do either of those then not only are you entitled to recover whatever of the price you have paid, but you also have the nifty option of buying a replacement and having the original seller reimburse you for the difference in cost. That last part applies less so to games than to office software, but a perfect example would be Tax software. You need it and you need it TODAY, so if the software you get doesnt meet the expectations set forth then you have the option of getting a replacement elsewhere at the seller's expense.

        PS: 90% of slashdot readers qualify as a Merchant Buyer with regards to purchasing software, which adds a few more really juicy options that take a lot more reading to get into. I leave that as an excercise for the reader.
        • The problem with your analysis of those legal excerpts is that they use the word "conformity" and you use the word "like." Under your interpretation, you could buy a book, take it home, read it, dislike it and then return it for a refund. Because the question of whether an entertainment product "conforms" to consumer expecations and/or needs is subjective, you can't apply the law in that fashion (the only exception would be software that just plain doesn't work). If you could, then the industry would sim
      • I have worked retail for many years. The buyer has no automatic right of return: the rights vary from state to state.

        The Attorney General's webpage for your respective state will usually provide you with the most accurate information.
  • ...they need to do far more research before picking up games - $50 is NOT a small purchase for most people, so it would make sense to be knowledgeable of the product you're purchasing. This means reading reviews, previews...whatever. If you're still hesitant, rent it, play the copy your buddy bought...whatever.

    The problem with returning opened, new games is that retailers have to and do turn around and sell that same game as new. Technically, the game is no longer "new," therefore there's some slight "dish
  • I have been burned so many times about software purchases that I always read several reviews about a game/piece of software before I purchase it. If the game is brand new, I wait for others to post their views to forums or discussion groups. While I can't remember the last time I played a copied game, or allowed someone to copy one of mine, I understand why retailers don't allow returns on opened merchandise. However, no matter how crappy a game is, you can always recover "some" of your loss on eBay or
  • This would be a perfect example as to why we need to allow roms. For example, I download Metroid fussion. I play it for a bit. I like it. I cough up the 50$ for it becasue it's a worthy additon to the metroid series. Boom, game makers just won themselves another loyal costomer. But on the flipside, I downloaded Pokemon Pinball (for xmas gift material, I swear). I play it for a bit and I find the graphics are lacking. The game control is terrible. So, therefore instead of paying for that game, I don't buy i

    • Re:Roms and such (Score:4, Insightful)

      by WaKall ( 461142 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @10:07PM (#7030356) Homepage
      I like your idea, though it has a big problem. I'll take GBA games as an example. Nintendo ships demo roms of games. First level, or only one character selectable, however they want to cripple it.

      In order for them to be accurate representations of the game, they either have to

      a) give you read-only cartridges as demos. No electronic delivery, high-cost for them.
      b) provide an emulator + rom download, thus expediting one of the two roadblocks to pure piracy (the emulator).
      c) Give you a read-write cartridge, and a rom download. You play it in your GBA. This is effectively b, but it plays on the console instead of on your computer.

      There is no cheap solution that does not encourage piracy in the case of the GBA.

      For optical media, it's a bit easier. They can put demos on other game discs in the extra space, or ship whole demo discs (PS2 does this - the JamPack demo discs. Xbox has these too). These tend to runabout 9$ a pop.

      But, they still won't let you download and burn demos to disc and run them. That would be one step closer to letting you download illegally ripped roms and playing them on unmodded hardware.

      FWIW, I bet Xbox will be the first succesful case of electronically delivered console game demos. Live + hard drive means they can give you a game demo in a controlled manner that doesn't contribute to piracy. That's a good thing.

      PS2 could do the same, provided they get a network set up. They have the hard-disk add on.

      Nintendo could have done this with the GBA player. A Flash memory unit in the player, and a hook into the broadband adapter to populate it, then customers could download GBA-cart demos and play them on the tv.

      I guess the point is use the trusted hardware that your target market already has to deliver the demos.
    • That happen to be plastered everywhere. In fact, they had Metroid fusion on demo for a long, long time. Nintendo really needs to get its act together on the demo disc thing. If GBA downloadable demos on promotional discs had been available from the start, there would probably have been a stronger corrolation between GC and GBA owners.
  • Since they can't resell the software as new it would be reasonable for retailers to charge a restocking fee, much like hardware vendors do.

  • Easy solution (Score:5, Interesting)

    by splattertrousers ( 35245 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @06:34PM (#7028867) Homepage
    Game boxes should come with two CDs: the first is the full version of the game, and the second is a demo which is an exact copy of the full version except that only the first couple levels are available, or it only lets you play for 2 hours or whatever. (As opposed to a demo version that comes out months before the full version and therefore has bugs.)

    If you open the real CD, you can't return the game. If you only open the demo, you can return the game. That way, if it doesn't work on your computer for some reason and you don't feel like waiting for the patches, you can return it.

    Game stores could stop people from buying and returning games just to play the demos by providing extra demo CDs, or by giving store credit instead of cash in exchange for a returned game.

    Of course, the problem is that it's up to the game publishers to implement this and who knows if they'd be up for it.

    • Not really so easy a solution. This would create more work for the developers of the game, and frankly, when I'm waiting as long as I'm bound to for Half-Life 2, Doom3 or X2, I don't really want anything that creates even more work for them.
      It would also create more packaging for a game, and as I am grateful for DVD packaging cutting out the huge cardbaord boxes surrounding the cd cases.
    • ...by giving store credit instead of cash...

      Nobody wants store credit, in my experience as an EB Games clerk for over a year. If they paid cash for a game that they burned, then they want cash back. ...They never got it, but they wanted it.
    • The problems is that demos are used to whip people up into a must-buy state, and as such have to be released a while before the game's release. Generally, that means that everything isn't done. Things like AI, which are generally done last, may get the shart end of the stick.

      If development companies released a "sample" post game release that contained only, say, the first level of the game (but really was from the full game) you might get what you want. Or you might get a lot of games with really good f

  • Why is that right? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by AltaMannen ( 568693 )
    If you were so unsatisfied with the game that you returned it for a full refund, why did you finish it? Seems you enjoyed the product, and just didn't pay for it.

    I fail to see the difference between your situation and going to a movie and afterwards ask for your money back because it was only 2 hours long.

    On the other hand, I think it should be law that they demonstrate a game to you before you buy it.

  • which is a UCITA state, with provisions. I understand that one of those provisions is that, if I fail to agree to the shrinkwrap EULA, I have the ability to return software (including games) even if opened, since I didn't have the opportunity to review the EULA until the game was opened.

    Question is, has anyone here actually tried it?
  • If one is to look at the return problem in regard to current console games, you would find that the people that buy, burn, and return are all XBox and PS2 owners. Why you ask... they were sloppy with their copy protection. Nintendo got it right. From what I understand people have just recently just been able to make an image of a GCN game, and still they were unable to burn and play it.

    Basically what I'm saying is that the retailers are in a world of piracy hurt because of the manufactures. If you were
    • That is one of the reasons why cartirges were better. I mean, granted they were still copyable, but I can go to my local radio shack, buy a burner and then I get to copy whatever I want. With cartriges, it was a little more difficult. To copy cartiges, for my "personal backup" usually involved dealing with shady characters and not so normal business practices. I mean, other then online stores, where can you find a cartridge copier?
    • If you were unable to copy games as easily as you are now we wouldn't be having this discussion.

      If everyone had MORALS we wouldn't be having this discussion. Blaming the manufacturers for piracy is like blaming homeowners for being burglarized because they didn't put bars on the windows.

  • Remember those days? 'Nuff said.

  • Sounds like my underwear (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mike Hawk ( 687615 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @07:13PM (#7029167) Journal
    See, I used to go to the mall twice a week to "buy" new underwear. I originally bought a three-pack of cotton briefs. Well, I took them home and wore them and even left some small stains. I wasn't happy with the product so naturally I returned it. I did this again and again. The store had a liberal return policy and I got away with it for a while. Then one day they changed their policy. This made me furious. I am obviously entitled to return any product no matter the basis for my "disatisfaction" and even if I used it, right? Well, they changed their policy anyway. I didn't buy any new underwear for a while out of protest, even using underwear my friend had purchased and was no longer using. Soon, however, I realized that I actually liked having own new underwear and that I myself was to blame for the change in policy.

    The lesson I learned was about misdirected hostility. It wasn't the stores fault they had to change their policy, it was mine for crapping in their product and demanding my money back. Maybe we should be mad at the people who abused the generous policy instead of the stores who are just trying to run a business. This would entail looking around and in the mirror though, which is much less pleasent than shouting bad words at the sky cursing "them."

    • Maybe we should be mad at the people who abused the generous policy instead of the stores who are just trying to run a business.

      Frankly Mike, very few people on /. have run a real business. (I have and it isn't fun, or easy. It was very different from what I imagined it would be.) If some of these folks complaining tried running a software store, they might understand that human nature, in general, isn't pretty.

      I always find it amusing that the /. crowd in general are firm believers in the 'something

  • "...if the policy on returns is too liberal, game stores will turn into free game rental outlets for people who don't want to pay for software..."

    I dunno about the rest of you, but it's way easier to download a game than it is to purchase a game, go home and make a backup, go back to the store and try to convince the game retailer that it's defective, and get your money back.

    People who use stores like EB as game rental outlets obviously don't have broadband -- if they did, they wouldn't bother with goin

  • I knew someone who'd order a steak at a restaurant, eat all but one bite, then send it back to the cook. I guess there's always people who exploit the system, but there's also people like me who open their Anachronox box and find one CD missing.
  • That allow returns on games just because you don't like them? I thought all those disappeared about a decade or so ago.

  • piracy has no connection here (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION ( 553878 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @07:46PM (#7029385)
    Wow, I'm really surprised at how anti-gamer slashdot is today. Everyone's pointing a finger at piracy, but I think the article of this story (which you folks may or may not have read) broke that finger off really well--draconian return policies do absolutely nothing to stop piracy via p2p networks.

    Everyone keeps saying to try out the demo, but if the demo works that's no guarantee the game works--especially since copy protective CD-checks are getting more draconian and obscure as well (obscure as in not working properly with all hardware). Unreal Tournament 2003 is an example that comes to mind--I played the demo, I bought the game, game does not work. It think a patch fixed the problem eventually--but it seems to me I should have been perfectly justified in returning the product immediately for a full refund (or store credit at least), open box or no open box.

    Gamestop (which I guess is the same corporate empire as Software Etc.) used to have an insanely liberal return policy as late as last year--a salesman actually encouraged me to try a game and return it if I didn't like it the next day.

  • Ever wondered why *everyone* sells the same new games for the same prices?

    I remember, back in the UK a few years back, you could buy 'retail' 25 GBP games ( $39.95) for about 17 GBP from mail-order. The 30 GBP games ($49.95) went for around 21 GBP ($33, thereabouts).

    Over in the States, I have *never* found a mail-order company selling a new game at more than 2 or 3 dollars below the holy $44.95 price point. What gives? My suspicion is that the distributors refuse to sell a game to the merchants unless the
    • It's far more likely that the margins on most video games are simply too thin at the retail end of the chain to do any serious discounting. This is also the reason that most videogame specialty shops focus a lot more on used games (walk into a US Electronics Boutique, Gamestop, etc. and you'll see that the majority of their wall space is occupied by used product). It's also worth noting that most video games are released in Europe after being released in the States, importing then cuts some of the demand,
      • I refuse to believe that. ;) UK mail order businesses can still discount new titles by 30 - 40% and make a profit. This is on PC games, released at the same time as the US version. This holds with expected wholesale prices - a markup of retail of around 50% from the distributer. It's a very similar business model to books - and we're used to seeing '30% off' signs both at Amazon and in high street shops. If you can discount books, why can't you discount computer games?

        =
        • Because it takes a lot more people with a wide variety of skills to create a computer game as opposed to a book? There's no comparison in terms of investment and cost except for the most elite (read "most popular") authors. It's also worth noting that books keep inching higher and higher in price (I bought the latest Clancy for my dad for $27.95 - 30% which is still close to $20) where video game prices have stayed pretty stable for a long time despite the increased production costs.
  • Is that most reputable places in Brisbane, where I live, have a 7 day return policy, even on computer games. I think this is a reasonable amount of time. It is enough to decide whether you like the game without holding on to it for a ridiculous length.

    However, I do have friends who buy a game, burn it then return it for the game they actually wanted, but I wouldn't change the exchange policy - it is quite a drawcard.

  • Why obviously..

    ..it lies within the Acts of Gord [actsofgord.com].

  • Yeah, right.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by QueenNina ( 544235 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @09:12PM (#7029982) Homepage
    Considering that every other person who buys a DVD burner from me (or a computer with a DVD burner built in) asks me how to copy PS2 or XBox games, I don't think it's that extreme for us to not turn into a free copy facility. If people don't know whether they'll like a game, they should rent it from a rental place first before buying it. Or, do like I do, and buy it, and if you don't like it, say, "Rats, I just wasted some money. Oh well, off to Gamespot!" I mean, come on, be reasonable about this. Stores are sick of "renting" laptops, camcorders, digital cameras, etc. to people who are too cheap to pay rental fees. Games, etc., would be too much. There are a lot more dishonest people out there than you would think.

    BTW, no, I am not one of those anti-P2P people. I just think that it would be a pretty bad move to sell people products that can be copied, and then take it back as a return.

  • Problem causing issues (Score:4, Informative)

    by neostorm ( 462848 ) on Monday September 22, 2003 @09:49PM (#7030223)
    The real issue at the core of this matter (for me) is that gamers can not get their hands on a game conveniently enough to find out if it's a worthy purchase or not. I live in Downtown San Jose California, a very technically oriented and gamer friendly environment. However it is so nearly *impossible* for me to conveniently get my hands on a game before buying that I have nearly axed my game purchasing all together.

    I used to have the wonderful habit of running to Software Etc to check out a new game. Their return policy of "return within 7 days opened or not" was perfect for checking out a new title I wasn't sure about. The only requirement was that you had to keep the game in mint condition. More often than not (due to the large amount of crap games of late), I would return the title to the store, no questions asked, and no money lost. Once in a while i would find a true gem, and I would keep my purchase (or if I found the employees of a particular store to be outright rude, return it and go buy it at the local EB instead).
    Regardless, those days recently ended. Software Etc. ceased allowing gamers to return their purchases citing a lawsuit from someone unpleased about being sold an opened game (which information is nearly never made available to the buyer, but most likely because of the "mint condition returns" policy in the first place). From what I understand, EB has ceased to allow open returns as well.

    For a gamer on a shoestring budget, this was indeed the beginning of dark times.

    For my PC games I turned to downloaded demos. As many have said before me this is hardly ever a reflection of the final product, and is unreliable at best, but still convenient considering I can sit at my desk and pull the game offline right there. However, not all games receive a demo. For those select few I am out of luck, many of which I would die to try out as well, so it breaks my heart to see them pass me buy with no way of getting my hands on them.

    For my console fix I turned to rentals; a highly overpriced way of sampling entertainment. Thought it could be said that I am allowed to complete the rented title and rid myself of it with no strings attached, I like to collect games that I find worth keeping, so this route isn't for everyone. Namely people who want to own the titles and play them more than once.
    But, despite the insane pricetag my local Blockbuster charges, at least I have access to the console games I desire before I lay down a larger chunk of change to own one or two. But this is not always the case. A staggeringly 9 times out of 10 the video store doesn't get the title in at all! This causes me no end of frustration, especially being someone who enjoys more obscure, less popular titles.
    So there goes that solution.

    Recently Gamefly.com was brought to my attention, the description of which immediately brought me great hope! However the same problems with Blockbuster plague this new service on a larger level. Call me cheap, but I am not about to lay down $20 a month to rent games, despite being able to have 2 at a time, as well as keep them as long as I want. This is mainly a time issue, since I work full time and attend night classes on the side. The entertainment-to-money ratio is simply not worth either my time or money. I can't play 2 games at once, and I'm lucky if I get halfway through one per month at all. Recently it's been even less (roughly 5 or less hours of gaming a week). Despite this, I was still considering it due to their sweet deal allowing me to keep a rented game by simply paying it's used price. Digging more into this I uncovered another shock that ended my interest in this service. I looked up a recently favorite, semi-obscure title that can be currently picked up at the store for about $10 used. $30. No-Thank-You. I checked another $12 title. $35. That ruled out that option.

    Now, one of my final answers, which is probably most peoples first solution: Online Reviews. I don't know how others fare in this regard
    • ~$6, 5 days, and the ones I've seen have had rows of games. If you decided to buy, yes it would add to the total, but it works out well enough if you go for older titles and buy used.

      To prevent a tangent, I try to base my spending on the entertainment factor. A movie lasts 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours, and costs $5 - $15 depending on timing and snacks, or $10 - $20 for the DVD. I generally equate this to $10 for 90 minutes. If a $50 game gives me 10 hours of interactive entertainment, I generally consider it
  • Cracker Barrel sells audio books that you can return to any Cracker Barrel for the first week for three dollars less than the cost of the package. So, let us say you buy the Grisham audio book for $40US, keep it for a week (listening to it I hope), and then "return" it to the store, and they give you back $37US. They're not renting it because you paid the full price for the package. They just have a separate policy for "slightly used" material.
    This works as long as the policy says you have to show you bo
  • I overheard a clerk at GameStop explaining to a customer why their return policy is so great: you can return new games (with-in 7 days I believe he said) and they will give you your money back. Sounds great right? The problem is, they repackage the returned games at the store and re-sell them as new (after all, they are basically new, he said). Some people might not have a problem with this, but I sure do. If I'm paying for a brand new item, I want it to be BRAND NEW. If I didn't care, I would have pic
  • I really can't stand the lack of personal responsibility people seem to take for granted nowadays. Why should retailers subsidize the poor decisions of their customers?

    I've stopped buying games from EB, because they *do* have a fairly liberal return policy, and so half of the "new" games I bought there were actually reshrunk returns from people who were unwilling to take responsibility for making sure they really wanted a game before they bought it. One of them (Silent Hill 2) I actually had to exchange be
  • Given the trend of this discussion, I should know better than to post an unpopular viewpoint, but both sides deserve a fair hearing. Flame or mod as ye will.

    I currently work for a well-known American computer retailer with a "draconian" return policy. Previously, I worked for several years as a manager of a similar store with a more liberal return policy. While I empathize with Elysium's viewpoint, my own experience tells me that such policies are necessary for a retailer to survive. A few points:

    First, t
  • Bad games that force you to wait for the next patch before it's playable. Games with misleading or nonexistent demos. Games that are unplayable due to buggy or draconian copyright protection. Games that just plain don't work with some hardware setups. Lack of an effective rental system. A universal retail store policy of not accepting refunds for opened games, even if they're pathetically defective.

    I can't imagine why piracy would run so rampant in such a consumer friendly industry like PC games.
  • I have purchased many games from Electronics Beautique and they have been VERY good about their return policy. These were honest returns, mostly due to incompatibility with Windows 2000 (when 2000 had just come out). A lot of games didn't say they specifically supported w2k, but neither did they say they specifically did NOT support it. Most games worked fine, some didn't. I even asked before I purchased it ("I'm not sure if this will work on my machine, I might have to bring it back") and they were coo
  • Stores could slightly liberalize their policies but require a drivers license to return a game. If they find you repeatedly returning games, they refuse the return. Sure abusers can abuse them once, but if it's only once then they afford that for the benifits of better customer relations in general.

    You see this approach in super-sophisticated, cutting edge retails like Foley's. [foleys.com]

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