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PlayStation (Games) Entertainment Games

Sony Lose Out - PS2 Not a Personal Computer? 65

Posted by simoniker from the those-crazy-europeans dept.
Thanks to the UK Guardian for their article discussing Sony's failed attempt to get the PlayStation 2 classified as a personal computer in Europe, for customs reasons. The piece explains: "Sony was not splitting hairs for the sake of hair-splitting; its motives were purely mercenary. The import tariff for computers coming into the European Union is much lower than that for games consoles and a ruling that the PlayStation 2 was a computer could have forced customs authorities to pay back millions in duties." Although the battle is becoming less important, as from January 1st, 2004 "...computers and games consoles will be allowed into the EU at zero tariff", the legal distinction is still interesting - the European court in Luxembourg ruled "...the definition of a computer could not be stretched" because "It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games."
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Sony Lose Out - PS2 Not a Personal Computer? More

Sony Lose Out - PS2 Not a Personal Computer?

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  • Because this dutch article says sony won: http://www.automatiseringsgids.nl/news/default.asp ?nwsId=24072 [automatiseringsgids.nl]

  • I read slashdot for cutting edge tech news (Score:4, Funny)

    by gazbo ( 517111 ) on Wednesday October 01, 2003 @07:13AM (#7102377)
    Such as this revelation that the PS2 is primarily inteded for games use.
  • "It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games."

    Well, so are many computers... so I don't really see the relevance of trying to point that out as a distinction between consoles and computers. That doesn't mean I think of the PS2 as a computer though, only that I think that argument is a bit flawed.
    • How exactly is the argument flawed? A computer, it can be argued, has tools to do wordprocessing, programming, video editing, etc. You can work on it and, indeed, that's what most people do. A PS2, however, has absolutely no chance of being seen as a computer since the only thing it can do is play games. Only with the Linux kit does it become something resembling a PC, but still it does not come as standard (thank the Lord), there is no argument here.

      • Re:Poor argument (Score:4, Insightful)

        by AllUsernamesAreGone ( 688381 ) on Wednesday October 01, 2003 @07:33AM (#7102472)
        Umm.. you can get a keyboard and mouse for it, you can use it for other things than games, internally it shares many concepts with a conventional computer. IMO a console is a computer even without this, in that it does what a computer does - it computes. It doesn't matter that, out of the box, it doesn't balance your books and write documents - it is as much a glorified calculator with fancy IO as the boxes sat around me at the moment. With the additional capabilities of the linux kit, exactly why is it not a "real" computer?
        • Excuse me, but I don't feel like going into a fruitless argument just for the sake of it. Could you please point me to an actual thing that you can do with a non-modded PS2 other than playing games? Because I certainly cannot think of any.
          • Play music and watch DVDs spring readily to mind...
            • Well, a CD player plays music. A DVD player plays DVDs. There are computers without CD or DVD players. What is your point?
              • The point was answering your question "Could you please point me to an actual thing that you can do with a non-modded PS2 other than playing games?". And I have a feeling you're being awkward just for the sake of it. As far as I can see, there is nothing from a hardware point of view that exempts a playstation from being classified as a computer. Sure, it's not a desktop PC, but it is still a computing machine.
                • Oh, Jesus Christ. How does playing a CD or a DVD make the PS2 into a PC? If anything, it makes it into an entertainment system which, although interesting, is completely nothing like a PC. EU regulations are there not to screw the gaming public, as you might think, but rather to benefit the computer buying public. Sony have been trying to use a loophole in a law that is clear as hell by resorting to shenanigans such as bundling a version of BASIC with the PS2 and the whole Linux thing. The fact is that the
          • Just imagine a Beowulf cluster of them!

            Scientists at the NCSA are actually trying to turn a bunch of PS2's into a supercomputer [uiuc.edu].
            They are using the Sony's Linux Kit, so they probably need few if any mods to the PS2's.

        • Re:Poor argument (Score:3, Insightful)

          by fireduck ( 197000 )
          a PS2 is not a computer in the same way that fertilizer is not classified as a class 5 explosive. The PS2 is intended as a game machine. Sony does not advertise the PS2 as a computer, in the same way that Bandini [bandini.com] does not advertise how their product can be "modded" for terrorist purposes. Sure, they may have a linux kit, but have you ever seen a commercial advertisement, where they make the claim that you can do any of the conventional tasks associated with computers, other than playing games?
        • exactly why is it not a "real" computer?

          2 Words Politics and Taxes.
        • With the additional capabilities of the linux kit, exactly why is it not a "real" computer?

          When I was at Best Buy on Sunday, I didn't see the PS2 Linux kit on any shelves. What I did see was 3 aisles of various genres of games for the PS2. And a few types of DVD remotes.
        • "With the additional capabilities of the linux kit, exactly why is it not a "real" computer?"

          A computer is a generalized device meant to perform a number of tasks. A Playstation is a device custom built to play games. Get enough of the customers out there to use it as more than a game machine, and we'll have this discussion again.
      • How the argument is flawed? The argument isn't about what computers and PS2s can be used for, it's about what it is intended mainly to be used for. The PS2 is mainly intended for games. So are many computers. The potential uses (word processing, etc) is not the issue.
        • You are replying to the wrong guy, mate. I agree with you, obviously.

          • Re:Poor argument (Score:3, Interesting)

            by PainKilleR-CE ( 597083 )
            heh, I think he replied to the right person, and disagrees with your statement ;)

            A computer (say, for instance, every computer I've ever built for my home, except for one I built from the spare parts) can be built specifically to play games. It may be capable of performing other functions, and may even be used for performing other functions, but the purpose of the computer itself is to play games. Just because I can do word processing on it doesn't mean it's less of a game machine than my PS2, XBox, GameCu
            • blah, never mind, my first sentence is incorrect, I misread...

              Now I get to wait for the posting requirements to finish up.

              la de da de la
            • This is all well and good but if you are going to have differant tarrifs for game consoles and personal computers, I think it is quite obvious which category the PS2 is more appropriate in.

              The PS2 is console.

              You can argue that it can have properties associated with computers, and computers can be made to be like a console, but that doesn't change prima facia case.

              Sometimes the obvious answer is the right one. This is one of those circumstances.

              You are right that consoles are turning into highly special
              • More approiately, we can decide that we shouldn't have differant tariffs because of the blurring that has been discussed here in absurd depth.

                Exactly. And, in most cases, this is becoming the case. When it comes down to it, Sony made a big deal about export restrictions on the PS2 from Japan's side of things, and now has made a big deal about import tariffs on Europe's side. Overall, it's really about getting some press and trying to reduce the fees they have to pay to ship the thing around the world.

                Of

  • The Real Reason for Linux on the PS2 (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Zarf ( 5735 ) on Wednesday October 01, 2003 @07:36AM (#7102491) Journal
    Now you know the real reason that Sony was selling Linux kits for the PS2. If what was at stake was enough money for them to mess with this bickering match ... then who cares about a few Linux hackers? If someone can convince the XBox people at MicroSoft that such a case is winnable you'll see an XBox distro of Linux or some other OS for the XBox too to prove the point.
    • Right! Kind of...

      Actually Sony put a copy of YaBASIC on the demo disc that came with the ps2 in Europe (when it was first launched, dunno if they still do) and many speculated that they did so to back up their claim that the ps2 is a computer.
    • ...you'll see an XBox distro of Linux or some other OS...

      Somehow I think Microsoft would go with putting Windows on their own hardware before linux. Just a thought.
    • If you actually read the post, you'd have seen:
      Although the battle is becoming less important, as from January 1st, 2004 "...computers and games consoles will be allowed into the EU at zero tariff"

      So it doesn't matter if the case is "winnable", as that whole distinction is now becoming irrelevent. The only case possible is to make the ruling retroactive, so you get a refund so to speak... but that seems unnecessary.
    • They should bundle it. A Linux kit plus the Open Office suite and Mozilla would make it more of a personal computer than the C64 or Atari 8-bits ever were.
  • The PS2 is primarily a gaming machine. I can see why one might start to think of a PS2 as a full-fledged computer, though - with games like FFXI, it's starting to move more towards the components that a traditional computer would have (keyboard, mouse, hard drive, even an internet connection). Until there are general-purpose applications (y'know, word processors, net browsers, etc.) for the PS2, though, it shouldn't be considered a PC.
  • Work arounds... If I was losing millions in Taxes, I'd find a way around it. I'd start to bundle an Open Office or similiar office software. I'd also put slots for my Sony Memory Sticks on the "New Eurporan Version" so that they'd be able to save more than 8 mb. Let's see they could get with lexmark and make a P2 Printer. They'd have it made.
  • So is the Xbox, Game Cube, and every other game console in existance.

    Anything that computes numbers is a computer. Even a freaking abacus is a computer, not an electronic one though.

    I think people are confusing the definition of computer, and Personal Computer. They're two entirely different things.
    • Actually, "personal computer" merely implies something small enough and cheap enough for an individual's personal use (as opposed to a big expensive computer that we have to share).

      While it's true that you can use an abacus for computations, it is not normally what people mean when they say "computer". I mean, by that definition, almost anything can be a computer, so the term becomes useless. For example, I can use a pile of rocks to help me count.

      Restricting the term to programmable things isn't go

  • Why Console Prices are so High in Europe. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cdneng2 ( 695646 ) on Wednesday October 01, 2003 @09:31AM (#7103293)

    Isn't this the reason why game console prices in Europe are so damn high compared to North America? The reason why Sony tried to get the PS2 classified as a computer is to get a lowered duty rate so that they can sell the console at cheaper price.
    This isn't any different then plasma computer monitors being MUCH cheaper then plasma TVs. The US charges a higher duty for import items classified as a TV. (My next TV will be plasma, but it will be a computer monitor with RGB and SVideo in.)

  • Good effort guys /pat Sony. Personally I think Sony should have one, not just because I'm a Sony fanboy either. Personally like somebody else said a computer computes, so does a PS2. The only difference is that a PS2 have very limited use fresh out of the box. Well actually thats not even true because so does a computer until you put an OS and some other software on it (just like the Linux kit for PS2). Besides my computer was designed to be a game console but nobody would argue that it's not still a comput

  • Why computers != consoles (Score:2, Interesting)

    by shed ( 68365 )
    Because after all, most people use them for balancing their checkbooks, not playing video games. Uh huh.

    I can't wait to get a Radeon 9800 to help me word process at 60 fps. I'll frag clippy yet.

    Ok, seriously, does this dutch ruling mean that a computer that is used 99% for gaming is a console, or does the definition have to do with the purpose for which a machine is manufactured? In which case, alienware would have a tariff under the old system, gateway wouldn't? Strange world we're living in.
  • A gaming console is a specialized computer designed for gaming. That's readily apparent by the company's advertising and if you open a PS2 box (there's no keyboard or mouse, just a controller designed for playing games). Go to Best Buy and try to find a word processing application for your PS2. Take a poll of PS2 owners to see what percent have installed the Linux kit or have even heard about it. Sure you can play CDs and DVDs, so why not tax it as a DVD player? The company that produces a product shou
    • The problem _is_ the logical classification. At what point in functionality does it become a "computer". Intent has nothing to do with it; a product is what it is. Where do you draw the line?
      • I didn't mean "logically" as in an overall accepted way of viewing things that anyone should understand, but logically as the tariff laws are written. A gaming console is just a specialized computer. By seeing that there is one tariff rate for personal computers and a higher rate for gaming consoles, I would conclude that an exception was made for gaming consoles and that the higher rate should be applied if a product can be classified as a gaming console.

        Now looking at the PS2, it's easy to see that it

  • http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_396604,0003 0001.htm http://www.gamegossip.com/comment.php?id=2156
  • because "It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games."

    so it my windose box. In fact, it is completely and entirely intended for running games.
  • It is quite clear that [the PS2] is intended mainly to be used to run video games

    So is the computer on my desk at home. Does that mean it must now be classified as a console?
  • Seems the court interpreter or something got it wrong:
    Get the latest here! [theinquirer.net]
  • Back in the days of the NES, Nintendo had the rights to release Tetris for video game consoles, and Tengen had the rights to release Tetris for computers. Tengen made their own version of Teris for the NES, claiming that they could because the NES was a computer. Their evidence was the fact that Nintendo was planning on relasing a keyboard(vaporware) and disk drive(only released in Japan) for the system. They lost, and had to destroy a bunch of Tengen Tetris cartridges. There might be a ROM of it floating a

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