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Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

Great Game Characters Compensate For Plot? 46

Posted by simoniker from the just-improvise dept.
Thanks to the IGDA for their 'Culture Clash' column discussing why interesting game characters make for better games, even if those games have a weak plot. The author gives the intriguing example of Max Payne, suggesting the game is memorable, despite the "relatively cliched" story, because "...the first time we see Max, he's giving up smoking because it's bad for his baby. The second time, he's howling his misery over the loss of his wife. He is a human being with a broken soul, and an enormously compelling and emotionally engaging character." However, games such as Morrowind present the main character as "little more than a cipher through which we experienced the game's story", and it's suggested that this is less successful: "It can be an effective way to craft a powerful narrative, but it's also one that is more likely to fail if poorly executed."
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Great Game Characters Compensate For Plot? More

Great Game Characters Compensate For Plot?

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  • RPGs? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by trublaha ( 650819 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @05:14AM (#7415417)

    I have to agree. With many RPGs where you generate your own character (ie Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, etc.) the main character lacks any identity and it's hard for me as a player to instill any identity in the character I'm playing - it just feels too... well, contrived.

    This doesn't apply to all RPGs tho - Planescape Torment had a very intriguing character!

    • Re:RPGs? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Goldberg's Pants ( 139800 )
      If you create the character, yes, it engages you more. I still have fond memories of "Curse of the Azure Bonds", the old gold box game, and an Elf fighter named "Ted Grunt" who had a pink sword. (No jokes please.)

      Characters in video games are mostly dull. In fact if someone said "Quick, name a character from a PC game", the only memorable one for me is Kerrigan in Starcraft. (Memorable for spoilerish reasons that, despite the game being a fair few years old, I won't spoil for anyone).

      I fail to see how Max

      • Re:RPGs? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by der_joachim ( 590045 )
        If you create the character, yes, it engages you more.

        Except for Planescape:Torment. A character is pre-made for you. You will develop it over time, but you have a name ("nameless one") and an appearance (boy he's ugly). Talking about P:T would be a bit off-topic here. After all, it is a great game with a great plot AND great characters. ;-)

        RPGs (in the broader sense) with bad plots can be enjoyable, however. Diablo 2 has a great replay value, because a character can develop in several ways. An amaz
      • who had a pink sword. (No jokes please.)

        ...MUST...RESIST...URGE...

        Phew!

        "Quick, name a character from a PC game"

        Actually, there is quite a list I could name. And I am bad with names. IMHO, the real factor is that most story lines are repeating (aliens invade earth etc.), so there is only the "lead character" to spice things up (enter Duke Nukem).

        Furthermore, for which kind of games do you really need a story? While all FPS have one (more or less), it's basically all about pulling the trigger a

      • Re:RPGs? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Cuthalion ( 65550 )
        In fact if someone said "Quick, name a character from a PC game", the only memorable one for me is Kerrigan in Starcraft

        Well, if you look in the adventure genre, it's easy, but that's a genre with really strong characters and stories, because they don't try to be open ended.

        From just the Moneky Island series alone I can come up with dozens of names, Guybrush Threepwood, Elaine Marley, The Dread Pirate LeChuck, Wally, Largo, Murray the talking Skull, I. Chesse, etc.

        Maybe I'm kind of a bad example t
        • I played Out of this World (or Another World as it was called in some markets I think.) Had forgotten his name:)

        • > Quick, name a character from a PC game

          Nameless space marine, 'Marathon' series. ~_^
        • > I remember the name of the guy
          > in Out Of This World (Conrad)

          No, that is wrong. His name is Lester Knight Chaykin. You must be thinking of Conrad B. Hart, from 'FlashBack'. Although these games were made by the same company (Delphine Software), they were not related.
          • Oh crap, you're right!

            I probably also lose points for remembering the name of Mesmeron from the Pac-Man cartoon show.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:RPGs? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by (trb001) ( 224998 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @08:08AM (#7415765) Homepage
      I can't speak for all, but Morrowind did that on purpose. Morrowind was supposed to be a completely open ended game...you could play it seemingly forever and still not progress at all on the main quest that would win you the game. Your character in Morrowind actually had a compelling backstory....and the lore surrounding your quest to be named the Hortator and fulfil the prophecy of the Nerevarine was amazing. A good example of how complex the backstory was can is to look at the number of books throughout the game that fill you in on the history of Vvardenfall. Dear god, you couldn't possibly read and comprehend all that information the first time through, it's just too much.

      --trb
      • You beat me to that post. I agree with the author, but wouldn't use Morrowind as a counter example. For whatever reason, that game really did get me into my character. The whole game _was_ your character. It was so open ended, and you were so free to craft him exactly how you wanted, and associate him with whomever you wanted, that you couldn't help but get into "your guy". I guess when I think back to morrowind, I think of my balding televani mage with his black stronghold out in the blight. I don't really
        • Unfortunatly Morrowind nerver did it for me. I loved the concept, but a number of things killed it for me. The worst was probably the level treadmill.

          (Going off topic here) While it's a great idea to level up skills based on use, it didn't work in Morrowind because of a loop hole you could use to maximize your skills. Basically, if you didn't engage your character until you had sufficient levels in your desired skills, then you could *always* get +5 in three areas. I became obsessed with this and ignored t

    • Re:RPGs? (Score:3, Informative)

      by MrResistor ( 120588 )
      With many RPGs where you generate your own character (ie Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, etc.) the main character lacks any identity

      Dude, that's the whole point!

      Morrowind is an RPG in the truest pen-and-paper sense. The whole point is that the character's identity and future is entirely determined by you, the player.

      IMHO, it's the games like Diablo that are a tragic misuse of the term RPG, since there isn't any actual Role Playing (you know, the "RP" in "RPG"). Contrast with Morrowind, where the Role Playing
      • I've played pen and paper. I've played Morrowind. I've played traditional crpgs. The first is fun, but the important part is the social aspect, the interaction with other players. The third is fun, good characters and a good story can make an interesting game. Its like playing out a fantasy book. THe second is boring. You have neither the great characters needed for a good story, nor the scoial aspects needed for rp. YOu end up with a pointless bleh lik Morrowind. ROle playing with NPCs only? What
    • If you have ever played any of the Final Fantasy series, you would know that ALL of the characters have a major role in the game and each have their own personality. they aren't just an image to get you through the game. Also, the Final Fantasy series has always had a very ivolved plot and storyline. There is no lack of identity or personality on Baldur's Gate or Morrowind. You create the character, you have the choices of where to go, what to say, who to kill, ally with. . . basicly, YOU ARE THE CHARACTER,

  • Wow... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Parallex ( 584658 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @05:21AM (#7415429)
    Could it possibly be that games designers are finally starting to realize that games must be more than simply a world with missions to capture the player's imagination?

    This is also the problem with MMORPGs -> Most aren't built to tell a story, rather they're there to help you scratch your head and think what to do somewhere else than everyday life.

    Somewhere along the line games developers must realise that if players play these games to escape, to be entertained - then they don't want to have to find ways within the game to entertain themselves. Games that implement these engaging story arcs are almost always extremely successful - even if only on a small cult level.

    It's also the reason why James Cameron movies are always 10x better than any others.
    • I would have to agree with Parallex. A good RPG should be one with a good storyline, something to enjoy. And I am definitely part of that "small cult level." I always have been and always will be an RPG fan.
  • I still don't see what the fuss is about. A cardboard cut-out character can be the most entertaining type (provided that its a scantily-clad warrior-maiden with 10'000 polygon boobs), especially for the teenage male population.

    Well, to hell with you. I'm off to ogle Miss BloodRayne for a bit more.

    • scantily-clad warrior-maiden with 10,000 polygon boobs

      That's an awful lot of boobs. Seriously though, although sex will always sell games, those games are the ones which you play because you want to look AT them, not play because you want to become immersed in them, part of them. There's a difference between a hot female and compelling narrative.
      • There's a difference between a hot female and compelling narrative.

        Depending on your definition of "compelling", I can see these two things going very well together. Hell, throw in five of each and it will work even better! :P
    • There is a certain level at which hot and sexy becomes one of those "thats just wrong" things.

  • Character != Player (Score:3, Interesting)

    by foniksonik ( 573572 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @05:30AM (#7415450) Homepage Journal
    If there is adequate room for a Player to develop as Character then a lack of personality is not a problem... ie: role playing.

    Supposedly this is the big difference between interactive media, role playing, and other such as books, movies, etc. where you experience vicariously through the character.

    • I'm writing a story [rimbosity.com] right now where, for the particular voice I've chosen, the less that is known about the main character, the better -- that way, the reader can better put him/herself in the place of the character. Of course, I've broken that rule rather badly. I'm obviously no Isaac Asimov or anything like that.

      On the other hand, in (for example) Lovecraft's writing, the story's frequently being told to you by the character who experienced it. In that case, an interesting character can be a big plus.

  • Avatars in the modern RPG (Score:4, Insightful)

    by neostorm ( 462848 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @06:34AM (#7415579)
    "...little more than a cipher through which we experienced the game's story", and it's suggested that this is less successful..."

    This may be less successful as a standard "character", but that in no way means it should not be done. I personally prefer characters as ciphers, this allows me to become that character. As the article mentioned, the player is no longer watching another being experience this other world while playing out a story; the player *is* that character within that world, and creating that story.

    The article is fair enough to mention that the typical "character driven" games like Max Payne (and unlike Morrowind) make for better "narratives" but this is the folly of many game analysts in assuming that all games are driven by narrative. While narrative plays a major part in moving the plot along, a game like Morrowind could easily be considered a simulation of sorts.

    Either way, this is highly a matter of taste. I certainly hope I don't see less of this kind of game, and more of the currently popular polygonal cliches, that walk through several hours of cutscenes and constantly spout endlessly repetitive one-liners during gameplay. (Contrary to what I assume is popular belief, constant jabbering by the on screen player characters does not add personality).

    • Re:Avatars in the modern RPG (Score:5, Insightful)

      by LordLucless ( 582312 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @08:44AM (#7415897)
      "I personally prefer characters as ciphers, this allows me to become that character."

      Which is fine, until you come across a conversation essential to moving the plot forwards, in which there are no alternatives presented that match your envisioned character. Or you find that your character can't really toss in his lot with the Evil Sorcerer, as he would really like to do.

      I commented on this before, waaaaaaay back, when people were bitching about the lack of flexibility in the Japanese-style RPGs like Final Fantasy.

      Basically, there's a dichotomy in computer RPGs. On the one hand, you have the plot-driven games, like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, etc. These are the ones that present the characters as mere ciphers. The problem is, even if you really get into the character, as you can in tabletop gaming, the system is not flexible enough to take into account your background. Why does my elven ranger, whose parents were brutally murdered by a bunch of bloodthirsty human peasants not treat humans like scum? Because the background you write for your characters has absolutely no effect on the game. In this sort of a game, the player can mould the character however they wish, but the character may not always fit well into the game.

      On the other hand, you have the character-oriented RPGs like Final Fantasy. Here your choice is taken away from you - you can't play Final Fantasy 7 as a 4-foot black midget, you're gonna have to play as a spikey-haired white guy. But because the programmers know what sort of personality each character has, they can program the game so that Cloud acts like Cloud, Squall acts like Squall, and whoever the guy is in FFX acts like himself too. In this genre, the player is forced into the mould of a particular character, but that character fits in well within the game.

      Now, with the advent of Neverwinter Nights, and such games, we are getting closer; the re-introduction of a GM brings back the flexibility of a human intelligence. But until we can make a program capable of understanding a natural language, and being able to rewrite the script of a game on the fly on the basis of deducations made from information inferred from a natural language, we're going to be stuck with this dichotomy in single-player RPGs. Whichever flavour you choose is based entirely on personal preferrence; would you rather choice in character design, or a set of smoothly integrated predefined characters?

      Anyone trying to start a RPG holy war proclaiming one of these as the only true way just doesn't get this; each type of game is following a different subset of the RPG ethos, and with current technology, it is just not possible to combine the two totally.
  • I say that it all depends on the quality of the characters and plot.

  • Characters plot (Score:2, Interesting)

    by SamSim ( 630795 )
    Characters have always been more important than plot. Consider the platform videogames of the early nineties and earlier. Consider Sonic the Hedgehog and Mario - and consider their backstories. They sure as hell weren't sold on the strength of plotline, but on vibrancy and dynamism. Sonic, anyway. When you have big splash graphics for your promotional material, you can't put a plotline up there, you have to put a character image.

    • Re:Characters plot (Score:4, Interesting)

      by PainKilleR-CE ( 597083 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @08:59AM (#7415968)
      However, there's no real depth (at least early on) to those characters. They're simply images. There's no detail on why Mario's saving the princess, for all we know he's never even seen her before he saves her. Sonic had character built up through the way he was designed and some of the things he did in the game (try setting the controller down for a while, for instance). Sonic had an attitude, but this is still image rather than any significant depth in the character.

      Even Max Payne, which was the article's first mention of strong character, is every bit as derivative as the plot, and his character is developed primarily through the story.

      Some basic social psychology can tell us (or, more importantly, artists) that designing the character's image in certain ways can project feelings onto the viewer, without knowing anything about that character, and both Nintendo and Sega used this well in their games, but in the end the story tells the tale. Sonic's sharp lines project his attitude, while Mario's round-ness projects a likeable character. Disney uses similar ideas in their animation, and Pixar has translated this into the computer-generated arm of animation. Shrek is an ogre, a creature that would normally be depicted as a scary, vile, disgusting creature, instead we get a round character with story points that emphasize no matter how hard he tries, no one's going to think he's scary or vile (though perhaps disgusting all the same). Try to count how many Disney villains have pointy chins or noses and thin, tall bodies with sharp lines. These things are important to get a point across at a glance, but are always developed by story.

      If you're the kind of person that wants a strong connection with the characters in your game, than perhaps you'll like games that center on them, but without a plot to develop the character, that character is simply what you project onto them.

      For advertising and to get people interested you may use a strong image to project your character, and it is important that the image and the plot that develops that character mesh well together, but if the story isn't there, or just doesn't develop the character, than the image will be all you have.

  • link! (Score:1)

    by h0mer ( 181006 )
    Zelda WW was a great example of this. Besides having an ocean instead of a overworld, the story/progression was pretty much the same as other Zelda titles. The tricky part is, if you take Link/Zelda/Gannondorf out of the game and replace them with generic fantasy characters, is the game as good? Personally, it would detract hugely from my enjoyment of the game.

    Basically, it comes down to this. Great play mechanics are first and most important. But a good character can make up for other lacking areas, such
  • It's somewhat opposite than in modern hollywood movies. Most of them have the complicated plot but only paper characters with no background and being hard to identify with.
  • It'd seem to me that any time you're going to work with a cliched storyline like that, you *have* to have a unique character going through it, because otherwise all you've got is plagarism.

    Max Payne and all the movies and other games based off the same premise always struck me as another contender for the title of "the guy's version of a soap opera" - it's not the situation at all, but the characters that drive it. It's not the point that there's some love affair going on, or ass is being kicked, but *who*

  • Word... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Josiwe ( 703514 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @10:16AM (#7416449) Homepage
    Any gamer worth his salt can tell you who Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, Barret, and Sephiroth are. Not as many can tell you the names of more than one or two characters from each of the other FF games. This is why FF7 is the most memorable of the series - its characters.

    The same goes for great anime - sure you may have liked Vandread or Gatekeepers or any of the recent spate of mass-production animes. But the reason everyone recognizes the names Ayanami Rei and Spike Spiegel is that the characters in Eva and Bebop are vivid, larger-than life characters that we all connect with on a deep level.

    Great literature is the same way - from Arthur to Yossarian, Hamlet to Holden, great characters are what connect us to and captivate us with any story.
    • Amen to FF7.
    • I'd have to disagree, at least with the comment that FF7 is the most memorable. I would say the reason gamers are more familiar with the FF7 and post-FF games is that they are much more heavily hyped. Nearly from the time the game is announced, the characters and their backgrounds have been revealed, images of them are plastered on websites, posters, t-shirts. While I fully agree that characters are always the most important way to connect us with a story, it should be acknowledged that the marketing behi
    • 'Any gamer worth his salt'? Must have some sugar mixed in there then.

      Pre-Playstation video games were shunned like the plague wrapped around Barbie dolls with their heads ripped off and replaced with GI-Joe action figure heads. People need to stop comparing the outcast days of the SNES/Genesis and earlier days of gaming from the PS1/N64 days. If you walked into a public place, beside from a local video game store, and randomly started talking about how long it took you to beat a Megaman game, people avoided

  • old man murray... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bigbigbison ( 104532 ) * on Friday November 07, 2003 @10:53AM (#7416754) Homepage
    ...once had a line that replied to this sort of conversation. It went something like, "If only Monopoly had a stronger plot, then it would really be sucessfull."

    Why do people always criticize games for their lack of plot but we never criticize films for their lack of interactivity?

    I popped the Wizard of Oz in my ps2 last night and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get that girl to go off the yellow brick road. I kept hitting buttons but they didn't seem to have any effect on the movie at all except to pause it and skip ahead.

    graphics 10
    gameplay 0
    score 2
  • I mean, a game is the sum of its parts and all.

    These articles are stupid.

    Does good audio make up for bad graphics?
    Does a good learning curve make up for cancelled online features?

    Come on, can't you see how useless this is?
  • Next?
  • Immersion demands that I play the game as myself. Playing a role, even one with some narrative depth, destroys that immersion. One reason I liked GTA3 was that they didn't try to force you to play as some cliched stereotype. Which is why Vice City was worse.

    People interested in character development should go read a book. They might see how shallow the stories in games really are.
  • Great characters add to the game, but for Max Payne, without the thick film noir atmosphere and well done graphic novel elements(i.e. the writing and the plot) of the game, it's just another 3d shooter. Oh let's not forget stunning graphics and bullet time. It may have been an arbitrary example, but Max has a lot more to credit for being a great game than a memorable character (which, while memorable, isn't remarkably deep).

    I mean Duke Nukem was a great character, and all he had going for him was a butch h
  • For those of you that are only siding with one type of RPG gaming, I have something to say to you. If you have ever played any of the Final Fantasy series, you would know that ALL of the characters have a major role in the game and each have their own personality. they aren't just an image to get you through the game. Also, the Final Fantasy series has always had a very ivolved plot and storyline. There is no lack of identity or personality on games like Baldur's Gate or Morrowind. You create the character

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