MMORPG Item-Accumulating 'Sweatshops' On Rise?

Thanks to Play Money for its post discussing the rise of the big-business MMORPG trading entrepreneur, with particular reference to Internet Gaming Entertainment, of which weblog author Julian Dibbell says: "In addition to the half dozen executive types working out of IGE's Boca Raton headquarters, the company employs another 65 Chinese citizens at its Hong Kong base of operations, the majority engaged in 24/7 delivery of virtual goods." He continues: "Imagine, furthermore, my wonder at learning that some of IGE's chief suppliers are mainland Chinese subcontractors running EverQuest-playing sweatshops in the hinterlands (at a level of production perhaps only hinted at in the famous but abortive Black Snow sweatshop in Tijuana)."

Sooo....

[darkmayo]

How long will it be before these are moved to India. :P /joking

EQ Sweatshop

[Anonymous Coward]

So these poor people are forced to play EQ all day and only given enough money for food? This leaves but one question, where do I sign up?

MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

In order to advance to a stage where a MMOG has an actual economy, it needs some form of export, hence a GDP. More money should come in than goes out.
While each and every game out there is still a closed economy (where for party X to go home with 100$, party Y must lose 100$, and party Company-That-Runs-The-Game must also make ends meet as a prerequisite), item trade is a somewhat unexpected (to me at least) way for this to become an open one. I always imagined they'd think of some way for MMOG lurkers to generate something actually _useful_. Like share their CPU or generate content on their own. Or something.

And yet, once people have applied the meaning of value to items within a game, and others are willing to lay out real hard american green cash in order to own them, this plainly shows that the game world managed to generate something of value to the outside world. That's a very substantial step, and it's completely unsurprising that someone for whom this would make economic sense (who can employ people at 5$/month) would take this up as a very real business opportunity.

I wonder just how much global market there is for Maces of Thwappage +5.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[GodHead]

It's not the items that have the value - it's the time involved in getting the item that has value, or the time to level up the charecter that has value. If there was no time involved in getting the items, they would be worth considerably less if anything at all.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

Wrong. The items/levelup _have_ value.

I could say the same for money. It's not the possibilities that money offers that give it value, but rather the effort gone into obtaining it. The value lies in the effort, and the money in itself has no value whatsoever. From a purely psychological standpoint that could be a partial truth, but nobody sees the world that way today. We all commonly agree that money _has_ value, and so does any commodity, be it virtual or not, that people are willing to pay money for.

Yo

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[I am Kobayashi]

Right, the prior poster's point, I believe, was that the value of the items is not intrinsic - it is solely based on the value a person places on their real world time.

1 million SWG credits are only worth the value I place on my time that I believe it would take to acquire those credits.

So for example if I think I can acquire 50k credits an hour in SWG, and I value my hour of time at 1 dollar, then I would probably only be willing to pay 1 dollar for 50k credits. It is not the credits themselves that determine the value I am willing to pay, it is the value I place on my time.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

You're absolutely right, but only if an assumption (which you or the first poster automatically assume as true) is indeed true.

What you said is true if you're thinking PROFIT.
If you'll eventually take that amount of time you spent and either calculate how much money you'd have earned elsewhere in the same amount of time, or how much cash you need to pay your Hong Kong sweatshop employee.

It's not true when you play for FUN, much like you don't go visit Santorini for profit either.

My point being that peopl

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[bigbigbison]

so what we are talking about here is use value versus exchange value, right? My $9.99 watch has exactly the same use value as someone's multihundred dollar rolex (or multithousand dollar? I really don't know). They both tell time. Mine even has the date on it.

however, the exchange value of the rolex is much much greater because of the prestige associated with being able to afford one.

so it seems like the same thing with online games. To the guy on the street, a particular item in a game has no use val

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[SuiteSisterMary]

Well, there's two ways to go about this.

One, of course, would be to remove the concept of 'spawning.' Monsters would reproduce, there's be villages in the hinterland training warriors, producing crude weapons for them, and so on. Wipe out that goblin village, and you won't see many goblins around for a while.

The easier, and perhaps as good, would be to introduce multiple currencies. If all the goblins in the came carry GoblinBucks, but the merchants in town only take EverCard (accepted by more Merchants around the world) then you need to convert the currencies. If lots of newbies have been out whacking Goblins, well, GoblinBucks ain't worth so much all of the sudden.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[code_nerd]

It seems to me that introducing multiple currencies would add complexity to the economy but would not actually change things that much. Sure, GoblinBucks may devalue if Ub3rGu1ld goes to camp the Goblin Shiznit or whatever, but then they can just go somewhere less camped, like Trollville, and farm Trollbucks and feed those into the economy instead (saving their GoblinBucks for when the economy swings the other way).

Sounds sophisticatd, but all it means is that the farmers would move from place to place lik

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[SuiteSisterMary]

Exactly; at least it would keep things moving, keep people from camping individual mobs.

As was said, the basic problem is that money appears from nowhere and is dumped into the economy. In a real economy, this would cause massive inflation. But in a real economy with multiple currencies, this only devaulates the currency being flooded; other currencies would be fine.

Another fix, of course, would be for beasties to not carry money; if you wants to get paid, you gots to find work. Maybe that's bounties

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[Tofino]

Under your model, you get a cycle of rampant deflation, since goods constantly enter the marketplace and encounter at best steady demand.

The situation is a bit more interesting than that. There's a real world parallel that isn't even much of a stretch. Take a RL hunter, killing a buck, and selling the trophies and the meat. This is essentially goods that comes "out of nowhere", but sells for real money, and there is always demand.

The parallel breaks in two points. The proportion of RL hunters to game

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[ShadowDrake]

proportion of RL hunters to game hunters is VERY low

Also, RL prey dries up. If the magenta sludge is extinct, the items it supplies will become pricy fast

I'd like to see value-add products. If you have to take your iron filings to a high-level smith to get a good weapon, the economy would collapse if nobody will become a smith.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

Okay, since you brought up the inflation topic, might as well brandish a braincell or two on it.

I'd say you're right, game economics are governed by physics (spawning, item decay, etc.) that aim to mimic RL, but sometimes do so poorly.
And yes, you could very easily reach a point of massive inflation, as quite a few MMOGs found out.

That's where the game dev's job comes in. Prior to going to work on the artwork and the 3D engine, you (as a game economy designer - hmm, I smell a new profession, and new unive

Realization..

[Hott of the World]

Ok, the real world and MMORPGS are mixing way too much for my tastes.

Soon, there will be as many people working in the game as there are playing it.

Oh well.. The Gaming Companies should realize this potential, and just start selling items, gold, and characters for money..

But then again, all those accounts.. the monthly fee's alone keep the businesses happy.

Re:Realization..

[shaka999]

Well the companies may get extra accounts but I think the problems it causes far outweigh any gains. MMORPGS are supposed to be an escape from the real world, when people can just buy their way in it ruins some of the appeal. This is the main reason the compaines don't sell items themselves. Customers would leave.

I realize selling has been going on ebay for as long as the games have existed but thats really just a drop in the bucket, not the large scale being produced by these external companies. I think the game makers need to come out forcefully against any buying or selling of items or characters for real money. Enforcement is difficult or impossible but when they find examples the characters involved should be banned as an example to others. Put a little risk in it and people might not want to drop $500 for a different character.

Re:Realization..

[*weasel]

That idea has been proven false in practice. Simutronics (numerous times) and Sony (less directly with their platinum EQ servers) have done this effectively, along with others (mostly for-pay MUDs).

What customers want, is consistancy. Companies that create a seperate server with purchase-able items and content have not received any such backlash. Indeed the only malcontent from players over the practice at large, is the mixing of people who 'bought' their character/gear and the people who 'earned' it.

Massmog companies need to realize that this 'black' market for items only exists because the demand is great. If they simply legitimized the tactic on specific servers (more likely provide isolated servers for the minority of 'purists'), the black market would die, and their own revenues would increase.

granted, administrating such a market is difficult, as each Mace of Thwacking Sony sells in EQ would decrease its own value. but the black market shops have figured that out, as have the makers of Magic The Gathering Online.

When the rules force a pent-up demand to be filled only by illegal means, then it will invariably wind up supporting other illegal activities. First Prohibition, then the War on Drugs, and now (to a lesser extent) 'illegal' massmog character/item sales.

Re:Realization..

[shaka999]

Thanks for the well thought out reply.

I would agree that consistency is the main issue. As long as I, the consumer, know what the rules are on a given server then I can make the choice up front. Personally I can't imagine going to a server where everthing is forsale but thats just me.

One of the things that really seems to motivate people on these games is, of course, character building. If your on a server where anything can be purchased whats the point? I know there is a large group that will say con

Re:Realization..

[*weasel]

Hey, I'm with you. It makes me sick in my heart just to -know- that games let people -pay- for hand-tailored characters, quests and loot.

naturally, some of this comes from the massive time investment these games demand, versus the immediate gratification our society craves. to some people, if they have the money to spend, why not? if it's going to 'save' them 3 months.

but outside all that, some people just really seem to enjoy playing through games with cheats, and more powerful characters than you're '

Re:Realization..

[IvoryRing]

And, just what is the impact when the in-game resources gained for sale are gathered via exploiting game bugs? And when the exploit of those bugs causes two problems for 'regular' players: 1.) disruption of service be the exploit itself, 2.) swelling the supply of said resource, hence lowering the price to the point that only players willing to exploit are able to gather enough of the resource to actually make an in-game profit.

My point? Just as Walmart has made 'being the proprietor of a 5-and-dime store

Re:Realization..

[Scorchio]

You just wait until the Inland Revenue folks realise that plenty of things are being bought and sold right under their noses, tax free!

My tax return form is complex enough without having to remember how many rat skins I sold between April 2002 and April 2003. Or can I argue it's all off-shore, and hence tax-exempt?

Virtual Economies.

[Jeffool]

The combination of time and resources that goes into developing virtual goods to produce an assumed 'worth' is comparable, at least on a base level, to the developing of real world goods. So if players spend 60 hours a week trying to achieve goals, attain resources, etc, do they have nothing for their time(or 'work'?)

I've got no problem with a game saying that people can/cannot sell virtual content. So long as they are completely upfront with the player before they have to buy the game, I think each developer has the right to decide if they want to allow this or not.

Those that do not simply adhere to the current system, with perhaps some better ways to insure that people don't sell characters (the larger issue, as I see it.) Ways such as refusing to transfer a character until after a certain time after it's creation, or refusing to transfer to a person with a different name or address.

Others should allow an in-game way of selling items for real world money, only with a small 'tax' for things over a certain amount. Say, for anything over $20, the seller is docked 10% (or some amount, whatever) as a tax for living in the 'land'. Wouldn't it be great to see a note on the bank wall reading "The kingdom is doing wonderful! Everyone will be expected to pay $5 less of their monthly contributions for the month of January! -signed, the King"? It's not an insane idea given the business model. Developers could reduce the users' monthly fees if things went well. This would be especially helpful to early adopters, as that's when you'd probably see the largest influx of people, fawning of the cool new scheme. As long as they don't "over" charge when the economy sucks.....

Jeffool
Just some guy.

Re:Virtual Economies.

[1arkhaine]

That is a fantastic idea. I would love to see some sort of reward in place for characters that make a profit for their particular shard or whatever.

But, it does raise some interesting problems. If something like this is to become common, then there will be servers devoted entirely to selling and buying, with little or no regard to the game itself. Now, while this may benefit the developers (Who want the money) and the players who enjoy camping over spawn points, for me, this would help kill off the actua

What's the Bottom Line?

[Slider451]

It's one thing to invest your time doing something you enjoy and get something back. Arts and crafts shows thrive on this idea. But to farm items in a game strictly for monetary gain seems like a waste. I haven't seen any quantifiable data on this. What is the actual return on time investment?

Consider the days it takes to get a character to a decent level with decent enough equipment and keys to access the choice areas, and the camping time for the rare spawns. How could that possibly earn one a decent wage? I suppose it's better than working in an actual sweat shop if that's your only alternative. But I'd think people savvy enough to max EQ could find respectable employment elsewhere.

How long before the Publisher gets in on the act?

[MBraynard]

SOme of these communites, like UO, are being run by companies that are very sensitive to the opportunity to get additional profits. And no matter how cheaply these companies are selling stuff for, the publisher can ALWAYS undercut their prices and drive them out of the market. Question is, when will this happen?

Re:How long before the Publisher gets in on the ac

[tibike77]

Quote from one of the links (people should read before they comment, shouldn't they?):

[...]And then there are the companies that have decided to go for a piece of the action themselves. Last September, Origin, the Electronic Arts subsidiary that runs Ultima Online, dismayed veteran players and delighted noobs by announcing it would now be selling advanced characters custom-built at $29.95 a pop. Wisely, Origin set the fee roughly in line with auction prices for characters generally, thus avoiding the impre

Re:How long before the Publisher gets in on the ac

[MBraynard]

I read that and am aware; but I was talking about getting in on the little guy markets for gold pieces, rare items, etc.

What ever happened to fun?

[PktLoss]

I buy games for entertainment.
I play games for an escape.

My goal when playing Diablo II, or Warcraft III isnt to have the biggest baddest charecter, or to win in the least amount of time. It is to have fun.

Paying hard earned real-world-dollars (RWD) to get virtual euipment, land, whatever just makes no cents.

Gaining the equipment, fighting the monster, challenging whomever is where the fun lies.

Its the journey not the destination.

Re:What ever happened to fun?

[V_M_Smith]

That, however, is only your opinion. For others, the fun lies in having a kick-ass character and being able to hand the BBEG his head on a platter without breaking a sweat.

If "getting there is half the fun", then logically, the rest of the fun happens once you've arrived. Some people want to get there more quickly. How does that affect your enjoyment of the game?

Re:What ever happened to fun?

[Anonymous Coward]

Paying hard earned real-world-dollars (RWD) to get virtual euipment, land, whatever just makes no cents

Well, from the article, with the investment these item farmers are making, it does make cents!

Re:What ever happened to fun?

[Harald74]

On the other hand, I personally fix cars for fun, but it doesn't stop other people for doing it for money.

Just as I develop software to make a living. Again, people to that for kicks...

Re:This would be cool

[imitier]

I can vaguely understand wanting to buy virtual items from an MMORPG, so that you save the time in acquiring them, and gain the status of having rare/powerful items. But low ICQ numbers? I can't comprehend this at all? Is it a status thing, as in "I was here first?" Can someone explain this one?

Re:This would be cool

[TubeSteak]

haha.. you're number is higher than mine. eat it!

okay j/k Its a status thing like you said. I'm sure you have a friend who always gets the newest possible shit and likes to show it off/boast about it. Sometimes its just a perk, like the President flying in Air Force One and not Air Force 204 or the head of whatever with the 0001 vanity license plates... they just want to be loved :'(

Re:This would be cool

[WoTG]

Why not? People go to a lot of effort to get "good" phone numbers. ICQ numbers are used just as frequently... for some people at least.

Besides, 8's or 7's (and probably others in other cultures) are good luck. So, what's a little investment in a good ICQ number if it brings you good fortunes in the future? =)

Just like Ebay

[ibi]

Just like Ebay

A current nasty scam on Ebay is to hijack the account of someone who's built up a good reputation rating and then to do fraud through that account (e.g. sell something big that you have no intention of delivering - like a G4 Powerbook or such).

In a certain way buying an account from someone on EQ is the same (admittedly much less nasty) scam. What's different is the real currency being exchanged in game. In Ebay it's cash, in EQ its admiration. In Ebay you see someone with a good rep, you fe

Solution: Reset

[frankjr]

I've got the solution to all the selling going on: just reset the games every couple of weeks or whatever. No one would want to buy something that will only last for a couple of weeks.