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Lion And Lamb Project Lambasts Videogames 69

Posted by simoniker from the roar-and-bleat dept.
Thanks to Gamasutra for pointing to the Lion And Lamb Project's new listing of their 'Dirty Dozen for 2004', as the organization, which "works to reduce the marketing of violent toys, games and entertainment to children", singles out Rockstar's Manhunt for its 'Pushing The Envelope' pick, despite the Mature rating, mentioning that "69 percent of underage teenagers were able to buy M-rated games at retail stores." Interestingly, Sony's Teen-rated Jak II is also criticized under the heading 'Deceptive Branding: The Sequel That Isn't', with the comments: "The original game in this series - Jak and Daxter - was rated E for Everyone... parents who feel comfortable with this 'brand' are in for a rude surprise if they purchase the sequel for their young children." However, the project's Top 20 non-violent toys also include videogames, including Dance Dance Revolution and Zoo Tycoon.
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Lion And Lamb Project Lambasts Videogames More

Lion And Lamb Project Lambasts Videogames

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  • 69 percent of underage teenagers were able to buy M-rated games at retail stores

    So then attack the retail stores who are not following the guidelines, not the game companies that label the games correctly.

    If kids were renting R-rated movies, would this group lambast Hollywood or the company renting them to kids?

    (Sadly, the answer is, probably Hollywood.)
    • Many of 'these groups' fight at all levels. One of the reasons Blockbuster doesn't carry NC17 movies is because of lobbying by similar groups.

      The site questions the rating systems for games and movies. They wonder if a game with 'sniper mode' should be marketed to kids, and not have an 'M' rating. They question why 'Whale Rider' should be PG13 instead of PG.

      What they should be doing is saying to parents: check out the game/movie your kids want you to buy. Talk to people you know (not anonymous busybodies

      • Re:Address the problem (Score:4, Funny)

        by tiled_rainbows ( 686195 ) on Tuesday November 25, 2003 @06:50AM (#7556449) Homepage Journal
        Hey, that's yet another little cultural difference between the US and the UK (I'm making a list).
        In my local branch of Blockbusters (in London), all the (softcore) porn is all mixed up with the normal-type films. So you'll get "The erotic witch project" under horror, "The seX Files" under Sci-fi, and so on.
        My wife, who isn't so good at spotting the genre of a film from the video box, sometimes says stuff like, "hey, what's "Lesbian Prison Riot' about? Have you seen it? Is it good?"

        The other thing that annoys me is the way they don't put all the Hollywood stuff under "World Cinema". I said to the guy in the shop, "hey, 90% of your stock is foreign films! All these American films should really be over there with the arty French stuff.

        And then the rest of the shop would be kept free for Four Weddings and a Funeral, and, er, that other film.

    • 69 percent of underage teenagers were able to buy M-rated games at retail stores

      Does anyone else find it funny that 69% of teenagers are doing something?

      Oh well, just a Beavis and Butthead moment over here. I'll move on to fart jokes in my next post.

  • Printing that out as my Christmas list! (Score:5, Funny)

    by heldlikesound ( 132717 ) on Monday November 24, 2003 @06:52PM (#7552172) Homepage
    Thanks for the tips!
  • What are they doing to those poor animals? Please consider the animals.

  • the real problems here (Score:3, Insightful)

    by self assembled struc ( 62483 ) on Monday November 24, 2003 @06:57PM (#7552218) Homepage
    First, Rockstar games clearly says it's M for Mature.

    Its up to the stores AND THE PARENTS to make sure that kids not old enough to partake in this entertainment are not. The game companies should no have to censor themselves anymore than CLEARLY labelling the box and the package. This is a problem not with Rockstar, but with society.

    Second, from that list of "approved games" can we say MASSIVELY BORING? Who the hell EVERY enjoyed playing Math Attack over Missle Command?
    • Here's a thought: why is there a difference between an adult video store and a local game store? Maybe they should have a "back room" at the local EB where they carry the mature games -- and not let kids back! This might seem extreme, but employees at EB or Babbages are getting paid minimum wage, and how many teenagers go video game shopping with their teenagers, really?
      • The problem with doing that is that a video game rating of M is basically equivalent to a rating of R, and in video stores, R movies are featured in the main parts of video stores, whereas the video equivialent of NC-17 movies which are usually put in the back of video stores a rated AO (Adults Only). My point is that if you put M games in a special section, you have to put R movies in a special section too.
        • You most certainly do not. Film ratings and video game ratings are different. There doesn't have to be exact age correlation between the two rating systems. The Lion and Lamb project seem to be searching for the same correlation. They complain that a game that's rated T was made using a movie that's rated R, but R-rated movies are accessible by teenagers with (13-16) or without (17-19) parents, so how is it wrong? If you use movie, TV, and/or video game ratings as a concrete way of deciding whether some pie
          • There doesn't have to be exact age correlation between the two rating systems.

            But there is, as R = 17+ and M = 17+. There isn't always an exact correlation within a franchise, though.

            The Lion and Lamb project seem to be searching for the same correlation. They complain that a game that's rated T was made using a movie that's rated R, but R-rated movies are accessible by teenagers with (13-16) or without (17-19) parents, so how is it wrong? If you use movie, TV, and/or video game ratings as a concrete wa
        • I think that a good solution to R-rated games at any rate are 1) parent supervision when purchasing, and 2) computer in a public place. There was a discussion on /. a few weeks ago that dealt (rather well) with this topic.
    • There is no problem. This website is acting as a TOOL for parents who want to educate themselves about what is featured in these games. It's saying "here's what's in the game and here's why we don't think you should offer it to your kids."

      This is exactly the kind of thing that we want to ahve happen. We want parents to be informing themselves about these games.

      The end.
  • I now return your to your regurlarly scheduled lives.
  • I RTFAd and it said something about Matrix: The Powerade Drink, Matrix: The MTV Special, ... Matrix: The Lunchbox, and Matrix: The Flamethrower!! ;)

    (OK, Wachowskis, don't you have enough green yet?)
  • The group seems to be yet another in favor of limiting tradtional boys' play in favor of girls' play.

    But they do serve a reasonable service. Many of the games and toys cited probably are inappropriate for young children. But... See, that's what the 'T' and 'M' ratings are for. OTOH, they clearly understand that ratings systems are absurd. They recommend 'Whale Rider', a film that received a PG13. L&L have chosen to mirror the thoughts of myriad film reviewers: this is a film that many young adults and
  • ... when I hear the term 'non-violent', the word sterile pops into my mind as a synonym?

  • I pray to God (Score:1, Troll)

    by bersl2 ( 689221 )
    that some of the gamers-turned-psychotics blow these fuckers away.

    But seriously, the anti-video game people are guilty of several types of non causa pro causa [fallacyfiles.org].

  • Positive Gaming (Score:2, Informative)

    by jjhlk ( 678725 )
    I found this interesting while I was working on a research project for school. According to the Interactive Digital Software Association [idsa.com], only 3.1% of those who buy computer games are under 18 years old, or 8.4% for video games. Most parents - 65% - think that these games are a positive part of their children's lives. And the most stunning stat is 96% of parents sometimes pay attention to the content of their child's games. These stats come from a pdf hosted by the Entertainment Software Association [theesa.com], but th
    • No reason for the ESA to have an angle there, is there?

      How would you feel about an MS report suggestion Windows is the best operating system because they asked some random people off the street?

      They may be able to prove it another way, but this kind of poll is taken just to spin.
      • I can't vouch for their credibility. But they didn't do the stats themselves, those were collected by the NPD Group [npd.com] (who works for over a thousand companies finding out information). The ESA (apparantly the IDSA is now the ESA, which I didn't know when I wrote my original post) has members which include Microsoft and Nintendo, and it hosts E^3 every year. What do they have to gain from dishonest numbers? Sure, take some of the stats for what they're worth - parents might be inclinded to lie on a couple of q
    • And the most stunning stat is 96% of parents sometimes pay attention to the content of their child's games.

      The key word there is SOMETIMES... what were the other options on the survey? never and always? What parent will answer that they never pay attention to the content of their child's games?

      With survey results like this, one has to always look at the questions that were asked to get said results.

  • Their main gripes appear to be the cross-age marketing of R and PG-13 movies with toys and games intended for younger ages and with descriptions of toy and game violent action as goals, fun, or otherwise the point of playing with them.

    I needn't wonder how they'd feel about my Alien Queen diorama which includes, "Trapped human with chest-burster play action".

  • list is of value (to busy/lazy anyway) (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 24, 2003 @07:48PM (#7552650)
    of course any list like this seems silly, but the listing of JakII as not being in line with the first is a good point. Sure the blame is on the doofus who buys an inappropriate game for his kid, but assuming II is a continuation of I is an easy thing to do.

    I think the main targets of these lists is "grandma" who is looking for a gift for the kiddies.

    Of course, as a youth I would have much more preferred a "toys/games that aren't totally lame or out of date" list
    • The kids who played Jak I since became teens who are more interested in what II has to offer!

      Not that I have a slightest clue about the game in question ;-), but it was mentioned that the first one is rated for younger kids while the second one rated suitable for teens.

      Paul B.
      • I think what happened to Jak II is strange though. Some reviewers called Jak II what happened after the first Jak starting hanging with the wrong crowd and doing drugs. While Jak II is undoubtedly a great game, the paradigm shift that happened is kinda' strange.
    • The same characters get pulled through a time warp into the future. They end up in a world kinda like ours--armed police, government use of torture, unelected leaders, grossly obese sleazy businessmen, that kind of thing.

      Personally, I think it's not so much the content of Jak II that's the problem, it's the incredibly high difficulty level...
  • Is that it neglects to make the point that violence is often needed. Police engage in violence every day against those who would take advantage of the weak and unarmed. IDF forces shoot on site those they spot wearing suicide vests.

    Take this anti-violence message far enough and what to you get? Tibet, forever under the iron boot of the Chicoms without so much as a whimper in protest.

    Lion and the Lamb? Just remember that outside of Bible metaphor (and yeah - it's metaphor), the lion eats the lamb.

  • They consider Hulk toys too violent? I thought Hulk was supposed to be filled with A-team style "nobody actually gets hurt" violence with a "control your temper" moral lesson. These people are either insane or too lazy to actually investigate what they are complaining about.
    • I think their point is that seeing the movie produced more violent reactions than actually portrayed in the Hulk film, though mostly of the "involuntary convulsing of stomach muscles normally associated with vomiting" variety.

  • Of course, the responsibility is shared. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sheetrock ( 152993 ) on Monday November 24, 2003 @08:11PM (#7552833) Homepage Journal
    Parents picking up Grand Theft Auto or Doom for their children can't very well claim ignorance about the violence of the content. If they aren't maintaining a healthy level of involvement in the lives of their children they've got no one to blame but themselves.

    Having said that, video games today are a virtual "pornography of violence"; characters are maimed or killed without thought to consequences in most titles, which are ultimately marketed to children when they share space among children's titles in gaming magazines or on review websites. It's highly unlikely even grown adults leave a session of intense gaming (or violent movies for that matter) without some imprint, as these games are designed to trigger and reward unhealthy responses.

    I've got a certain amount of room for games like BF1942 in my free time, but I also enjoy games like Zork or Myst that are underrepresented in today's lineup on the shelves. Maybe they've got a point?

    • Right, like kids can't handle violence. After all, it's not like they are subjected to violence, murder, canabilism, etc. in their nice, clean little fairy tale books, now is it? Lets see: Hansel & Gretel -- child abuse and canibalism. Snow White -- intentional poisoning. The Wizard of Oz -- the "hero" begins her odessy by taking credit for the death of one woman, and ends it by killing that woman's sister. Good think young children aren't being subjected to graphical descriptions of violence, or we'd b
    • Having said that, video games today are a virtual "pornography of violence"; characters are maimed or killed without thought to consequences in most titles,

      you know, I just got Namco Museum for my GCN.. and just finished playing the hell out of DigDug. Now here's a game where you stick monsters with a bicycle pump, and inflate them until they explode.

      I don't remember anyone in the 80's complaining about how this was influencing our kids.
    • The real debate here is between good art and bad art. GTA3 didn't become popular based on its violence alone. It became popular because of it's quality. Kids and adults alike often react numbly to violence, not because they've been desensitized over the years, but because the violence is probably pretty bad art. Bad art does not stir or provoke. Violence in bad art (see T.V.) does not get the same reaction from people as violence in good art. I don't worry about kids being "desensitized", because it's entir
  • They seem to be confusing the minimum age requirements with recommended requirements, for example, from there 2002 list, Burnout 2, which they list as being marketed at children aged 6 and up. Hell, what kind of uber 6 year olds are these weirdos breeeding? If they have the reaction and motor skills to play high speed racing games at 6 then they should be on some special air force training program!

    And whats with the crap about enter the matrix? Theres no content in there thats too graphic for teenagers. J

  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Too Much Hot Air (Score:2, Interesting)

    by silentbobdp ( 157345 )
    I love how every group of twelve soccer moms standing on the sidelines biddying gets to release these lists and people actually give a damn about them and their little world for about two minutes.

    With that said, any parent who lets a six- or seven-year-old play Manhunt should be shot. They exist. I saw one buy it for them while I bought SSX 3 yesterday.
    • Kinda' like the clueless Dad who loans the 6-year-old the extra $10 needed to buy Grand Theft Auto III. It's wrong on so many levels; I can't even begin to tell you. ;)

  • It is a decent list (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bishop ( 4500 ) on Monday November 24, 2003 @09:19PM (#7553281)
    I don't agree with everything they write, but overall it is a good list. One of their central complaints is toys marketed at younger children, but based off of movies or tv shows marketed at a much older audience. Unlike other groups, the Lion and Lamb Project seems to be more geared towards educateing parents about the dangers of violent toys and games, then legislating "violent" toys. A common complaint seen on /. is against parents who allow their children to play violent games rated M for mature. Here is have a group that agrees, and provideds parents with education regarding those issues.

    That said this group may be involved in other activities that I do not agree with. I only took a cursory look at their web pages. But this is not yet another group who hates video game violence. Rather this is a group that hates violence marketed at children. A subtle but important distinction.

  • Jak 2 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WasterDave ( 20047 ) <davep AT zedkep DOT com> on Monday November 24, 2003 @09:20PM (#7553297)
    The Jak 2 thing is a fair comment. Much of it is really quite horrible - the intro movie, for instance. I'd feel really bad if I'd got this for a kid's christmas present. It's bloody hard too.

    It's a good game, but I was really disappointed to not be getting a Jak and Daxter sequel.

    Dave
  • I wonder if Rockstar will send these guys an x-mas card for telling kids the #1 game they SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING! Absolutely under no circumstances should children buy this game....or have one of their siblings buy it for them, or pay a friend to buy it for them!

  • I'm surprised, looking at their list this year (comic book superheroes and, apparently, anything with the word ninja in it) that they just don't propose infant castration as the solution to all their issues.

    Of course, then they wouldn't get their name in the paper every Christmas, so probably it wouldn't be their ideal solution after all.

  • wow (Score:2, Funny)

    by Frizzle Fry ( 149026 )
    Ninja turtles. Professional wrestling. Transformers. These are the same toys I had when I was a kid. I thought that I would never have heard of whatever kids were playing with now, but I know those. That's so cool.

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