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XBox (Games)

Leaked X-Box 2 Specs Include PPC CPU 753

Posted by CmdrTaco from the two-scoops-of-acronyms dept.
Jutebox150 writes "According to the MercuryNews.com, the specifications for Microsoft's successor to the Xbox were revealed. The specs for the next Xbox, at least according to this report, are as follows: Three IBM-designed 64-bit microprocessors, the same chips now used in Apple Computer's high-end G5 PowerMac. This will give the new Xbox 'more computing power than most personal computers.' A graphics chip designed by ATI Technologies that will clock in with speeds faster than the upcoming R400. But what I found most surprising is there are no talks about an internal hard drive, rather suggesting that the next Xbox will instead rely on flash memory, and, depending on hardware cost, backwards compatibility could be out of the question."
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Leaked X-Box 2 Specs Include PPC CPU More

Leaked X-Box 2 Specs Include PPC CPU

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  • Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ChaoticChaos ( 603248 ) * <l3sr-v4cf@NOspaM.spamex.com> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:09PM (#8169582)
    I'm thrilled over the potential processing power of the new Xbox. I love my Xbox and more Xbox goodness is headed our way.

    I have mixed feelings about backwards compatibility. While being able to play current games on the next Xbox would be nice; too often, hardware/software is seriously crippled because of backwards compatibility. I would dare say that a lot of the long overdue innovation in Microsoft's Windows line was due to being handcuffed with compatibility issues. It may be that someone or Microsoft will release an emulator for the old games as well after the next Xbox is released. That is a possibility.

    I totally don't understand not putting a hard drive in the system. That is a monster step backwards. What are they thinking? I enjoy being able to download and play new levels for current games, that would probably not be possible without a hard drive.

    The one thing I'm most concerned about and I don't hear anything about yet, is, are they going to allow a keyboard and a mouse on the next Xbox? That needs to get done. Sony allows it on the PS2. The Xbox is never going to be strong in the MMO arena without allowing a keyboard and a mouse. First-person-shooters would be much more enjoyable with a keyboard and a mouse too.

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MacBrave ( 247640 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:12PM (#8169621) Journal
      Um, if they did this wouldn't you just have a PC in a fancy box?

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Seahawk ( 70898 ) <tts&image,dk> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:18PM (#8169711)
        Yes, but a PC that consumers actually know how to use - the problem with PC's today, IMHO, is that 90% of the users dont know how to use it - and then we end up with a shitload of machines ill configured, that spams the rest of us.

        Furthermore the devs gets ONE platform to test on - This leads to less testing time needed, which ultimately SHOULD lead to cheaper games(or the cost saving would be used somewhere else - the directors pockets! ;))

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:25PM (#8169842) Homepage Journal
        What do you think the Xbox is? You think that's a custom-designed game console? It's a set top box PC. No chip in those things is anything but commodity hardware. The GPU is tweaked a little bit, it's true, but it's not substantially different from the geforce you can buy at costco or walmart or what have you. If it wasn't all commodity hardware it would cost too much to make a system with the Xbox's specifications. The GPU is an obvious exception since a graphics card is only current for a little while anyway, whereas just about every other chip in that xbox is good for something else.

        You can already put a USB keyboard and mouse on an Xbox, and software can utilize it. It's just a legacy-free PC without expansion, though clearly they were thinking about having twice as much ram in the system.

        • Microsoft wanst to ensure you don't remember that (Score:5, Interesting)

          by cgenman ( 325138 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:17PM (#8170546) Homepage
          According to the Microsoft developer specs, you aren't allowed to talk about "Data," "CPUs," or anything else in your games that might suggest the XBox was a PC (except for games like Star Trek where it would be diagetic). We had a game bounce from Microsoft because we "saved data." Having a first party keyboard and mouse would run counter to that mantra.

          It's difficult to justify buying a big box if you realize that it is actually a slightly smaller box than you already have.

        • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)

          by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:32PM (#8170784)
          If it wasn't all commodity hardware it would cost too much to make a system with the Xbox's specifications

          That's the kind of thinking that has got MS in so much trouble with the X-Box, and why they are loosing so much money on it.

          When you are making 50 million of something which are all exactly the same then it is cheaper to design and manufacture specialist hardware than to use "off-the-shelf" components.

          I remember reading the Wired article about the X-Box and remember thinking "what a bunch of dumbasses". It was as if they thought the major electronics manufacturers don't try to shave every last penny off production costs when they create a mass produced item. And of course the last laugh is on them, making huge losses with every X-Box sold because it is made with "off-the-shelf" components whilst Sony continues to lower the unit cost of the PS2 because it has complete control over the production of the hardware.
    • More computing power then most PCs? Not exactly. If it were built today, it'd be doing pretty good, but by the time it launchs Intel is going to be at 4-5Ghz.
      Also, there doesn't seem to be any way for Microsoft to do backward compatibility. I don't think there is any code in the entire world that would let a 2.0Ghz G5 chip emulate a P3 733.
      • Well, considering MS bought Connix assets (i.e. Virtual PC) I'd have to disagree with you. 733 Mhz emulation should be well within the range in a couple years, if not already today (it runs rather spiffily on a G4, let alone a G5)

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by tommck ( 69750 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:20PM (#8169743) Homepage
        Why not?

        They bought Virtual PC recently. That emulates X86 architecture on PPC, right?

        Seems like a perfect application for their newly acquired company.

      • From the article:

        "Three IBM-designed 64-bit microprocessors. The combined power of these chips means the Xbox Next will have more computing power than most personal computers."

        I think "3" G5's can emulate a 733 P3 without too much trouble.

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:4, Informative)

        by jo_ham ( 604554 ) <joham999 AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:14PM (#8170520)
        Well, three PPC970s at 2Ghz would be 6Ghz - and IBM and Apple have both mentioned that 3GHz PPC970s will be here in mid 2004 - which would be 9GHz.

        I know it's not as simple as 2x 2Ghz = 4Ghz, but generally it's a fair indicator of performance.

        I'd be surprised if we had "most" home PCs at 9Ghz by the time the Xbox2 ships.
        • I know it's not as simple as 2x 2Ghz = 4Ghz, but generally it's a fair indicator of performance.

          You might be correct for general applications, but you are incorrect for CPU emulation. It is extremely difficult to parallelize CPU emulation to the degree required to use multiple CPUs for emulation. It'd be essentially a single processor doing all the work.

          Virtual PC gets somewhere in the ballpark of 3 PowerPC cycles per 1 x86 cycle, average case. That would make the 733Ghz XB1 CPU roughly just *barely*

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Zed2K ( 313037 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:17PM (#8169706)
      I bet they move the HD to external via USB 2.0 or something. It may be useful but its not useful enough to justify forcing people to buy it. They would be able to keep the cost down a little more without the HD. Those that want it can just go buy it for a premium price.

      • No HD (Score:5, Interesting)

        by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:41PM (#8170063) Journal
        I believe that they want to remove HDs from peoples homes, and have everyone store their data on MS servers.

        You'll pay a monthly fee to use your account and get terminal access to the approved software suite and library of games. Migrating to another platform will become well-nigh impossible.

        And if you're a small-time developer? There's always telemarketing....

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by *weasel ( 174362 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:56PM (#8171110)
        The problem with console add-ons is that (relatively) no-one buys them. the historical adoption rates for add-ons is abyssmal.

        Developers can't assume the functionality of the add-ons exists, so they generally don't waste coding time to support the ~5% of their users who might have one.

        and if most games don't support the functionality, then what's the point of the device at all? why pay $100 for an external HD if only 1 in 40 games supports custom soundtracks/content download?

        Add-ons only move when a particular game has so rabid a fanbase that they can financially survive requiring the add-on to play.
        E.g. Phatasy Star Online's keyboard for various consoles, FFXI/PS2 HD, etc.

        If the neXtBox doesn't ship with a HD, I doubt MS will release an external device unless a particular developer is going to require it.

        Perhaps if backwards-compatibility was supported only by purchasing the external HD they could move the units by themselves, but newer games almost certainly wouldn't support it as much as current games do. And that would likely arouse much contempt from the playerbase. Particularly seeing as how the XBox itself will likely cost only $100 when the neXtBox hits.
    • I have mixed feelings about backwards compatibility. While being able to play current games on the next Xbox would be nice; too often, hardware/software is seriously crippled because of backwards compatibility.

      This is something i've also wondered. Although many believe PS2's big selling point was the fact that all your old PS1 games still worked ... really, how much was that an issue for the majority of people out there?

      After all, if you have 500 pounds worth of PS1 games would you rather save a bit of

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by why-is-it ( 318134 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:21PM (#8169766) Homepage Journal
      I totally don't understand not putting a hard drive in the system.

      We know that the xbox is just a pc, no matter how much the vendor wants us to believe otherwise. What better way to make it more of a closed system than to use flash RAM instead of the hd for temporary storage. What better way to have more rights management built into the thing than to make the data that much harder to access

      That is a monster step backwards.

      I agree, but from the m$ perspetive, it is probably viewed as a major step forward. If they can obfuscate the internal operations of the system, it will make it that much harder to hack and mod.

      What are they thinking?

      This is where you will go today

      Seriously though, it will probably come to pass that you only purchase a license to use this thing, and not the hardware itself. They are obligated to protect the content which of course, belongs to someone else... The end of the open PC has been written about before, and perhaps this is how m$ would like to do that?

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by b1t r0t ( 216468 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:29PM (#8169896)
      I totally don't understand not putting a hard drive in the system.

      Well, first of all, it's heavy. Why do you think they've got disconnect joints in their controller cables? It's also full of moving parts and not reliable. At least when a slotted flash card goes bad, you can always get another one. And then there's the cost issue. Hard drives have a certain minimum cost regardless of their capacity.

      I totally don't understand not putting a hard drive in the system.

      How about just going all the way and making the controller ports be USB from the very start? I don't see why we need a new custom controller port on every new generation of console. (Sony gets a bye on this for keeping the original Playstation controller and memory port plugs.)

      • "I don't see why we need a new custom controller port on every new generation of console."

        Because when you sell your main piece of hardware at a loss, you need to make money anywhere you can. Accessories like memory cards and controllers are expenses that most people don't think about when buying a console, and then when they have to buy them they don't really feel ripped off anyway (at least not enough to stop them from buying more). Easy money.

      • hard drive weight (Score:5, Funny)

        by tgibbs ( 83782 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @06:26PM (#8174589)
        Well, first of all, it's heavy.

        Yeah, just look at all those people staggering around under the weight of their iPods.

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by somethinghollow ( 530478 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:30PM (#8169908) Homepage Journal
      too often, hardware/software is seriously crippled because of backwards compatibility.

      Home game consoles have never really be backward compatible. PS2 is the first real back-ward compatible that I know of (though someone will end up telling me differently).

      I couldn't play my Nintendo games on a Nintendo 64 out-of-the-box, and I surely can't play them on a GameCube. There is no precident for backwards compatibility in the gaming market, IMO, so it shouldn't be a concern for Microsoft.

      Besides, most gamers I know have more than one game system, so it is no big deal if they have yet another one.

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by DenOfEarth ( 162699 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:18PM (#8170560) Homepage

        Besides, most gamers I know have more than one game system, so it is no big deal if they have yet another one.

        Right, and if I'm going to sink a bunch of money into a brand new top of the line console, then I am going to probably go for the one that can play the games which I already like and enjoy right away. Just because the PS2 is the first one to hit on this idea doesn't make it a bad idea by any means, and in fact, they are setting a precedent. In fact, it's a great idea, IMO, and I'd be super-excited by the new X-box if I'd be able to play all my current x-box game on it...It just makes it easier, really, as then I could get rid of the old x-box, and I would only need the one machine.

        The other thing is that adding backwards compatibility may not necessarily bring out those hardcore gamers that will buy multiple consoles anyways, but they aren't really the ones that a console comapny really worries much about. They'll buy the hardware anyways, like you said. Where the backwards compatibilty comes in nice is for that group of people that only really want one console, and already have a bunch of games for an older generation box. They can then keep all their games, and still only have one console. The hardcore folks can have their five or six different consoles if they want, but I only really want one good one. If there's no backwards compatibilty in the Next X-box, then I have no extra bit of incentive to stay with the platform for the next generation, meaning I could just as easily jump to a PS3 or the next nintendo or whatever.

      • Home game consoles have never really be backward compatible. PS2 is the first real back-ward compatible that I know of (though someone will end up telling me differently)

        Yep, the Atari 7800 was backward compatible to the 2600. That's one of the main reasons why I bought one, to play the piles of 2600 games I had.

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Informative)

      by chrysrobyn ( 106763 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:33PM (#8169948)

      I have mixed feelings about backwards compatibility. While being able to play current games on the next Xbox would be nice; too often, hardware/software is seriously crippled because of backwards compatibility

      Have you ever seen VirtualPC run on a Mac? I've seen instances where VPC is able to emulate code pretty close to the x86 equivalent speed. Now if we're talking about a multi-way PPC, (tri? dual?) 970 class processor, even if you penalize one of the 1GHz processors 50%, it should be able to handle the 700MHz P3 that's in the XBox.

      I found it fishy when Microsoft purchased VirtualPC. Sure, they can create virtual instances of Windows on top of Windows, but that's not very mass market. On the other hand, if they can use the technologies that VPC perfected to make their software basically architecture independant (backwards compatibility on any reasonably equipped processor), then that really gives them a bargaining chip. Of course, the Mac community felt that Microsoft was going to box VPC up in a small piece of pine and we'd never see it again, but that was not cunning enough.

      I've heard that the G5 doesn't have VPC running on it because it's missing one instruction that the G4 had, and although I don't know what that is, I imagine that Microsoft can pay IBM enough to put that instruction in for the XBox2 version of the chip. Heck, Microsoft and IBM can work out a way to make custom logic interface with VPC better instead of it being exclusively modifying VPC (within reason of course).

      I think, in true Microsoft fashion, we'll see the new VPC changed slightly and then become the foundation of their (gaming) business.

      • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:5, Informative)

        by CuriHP ( 741480 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:47PM (#8170143)
        The problem the G5 has with VPC is that unlike the G4 it cannot accept numbers in both big endian and little endian form. The G4 was able to do this and it saved enourmous amounts of work when emulating x86 and its ass-backwards numbers.

      • x86 and PPC emulation (Score:3, Interesting)

        by 0x0d0a ( 568518 )
        Have you ever seen VirtualPC run on a Mac? I've seen instances where VPC is able to emulate code pretty close to the x86 equivalent speed. Now if we're talking about a multi-way PPC, (tri? dual?) 970 class processor, even if you penalize one of the 1GHz processors 50%, it should be able to handle the 700MHz P3 that's in the XBox.

        It depends a lot on what's being done, but a very rough rule of thumb is that it requires about three PowerPC cycles for Virtual PC to emulate one x86 cycle. That would make a 1G
    • Haven't you heard the rumors (which is what all this is at this point)? Rumors also say that subscribers to Xbox Live will be given 1 to 2 GB of storage space on their servers so users can access their downloads of game updates anywhere they go, not just on their home console.

      Microsoft hasn't confirmed any of this nor the fact that Xbox Next will be coming out in 2005 instead of 2006. I think this may have been leaked just so Microsoft could see what kind of reaction they get. Believe it or not, when

    • Re:Next Xbox Thoughts... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Sparky77 ( 633674 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:44PM (#8170108) Homepage
      The reason there's no hard-drive is because they realized that they can make more money by sticking it to us with the hidden costs of memory cards.

  • No backwards compatibility? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:11PM (#8169599)
    Does this mean I'll have to buy a new modchip?

  • Give it up (Score:5, Funny)

    by DarkHand ( 608301 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:11PM (#8169600)
    Why dosen't Microsoft give it up and admit to all the Xbox players that they're gaming on a PC? Or in the case of the Xbox2, a Mac. :)

    • Re:Give it up (Score:4, Funny)

      by mblase ( 200735 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:45PM (#8170119)
      Why dosen't Microsoft give it up and admit to all the Xbox players that they're gaming on a PC? Or in the case of the Xbox2, a Mac. :)

      It's worse than that. Microsoft is trying to keep it under wraps that they'll be using Mandrake Linux PPC for the underlying OS.

  • Flash memory? (Score:3, Funny)

    by v_1_r_u_5 ( 462399 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:12PM (#8169627)
    Something tells me that "640K of memory should be enough for anybody" is not going to cut it...

  • You recognize the possibilities (Score:5, Funny)

    by burgburgburg ( 574866 ) <splisken06@@@email...com> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:12PM (#8169628)
    Virginia Tech can make the next supercomputer using a cluster of XBox2s. And as soon as they did, employees of Microsoft would finally remove the flesh-like coverings and reveal their true cyborg selfs as they began the final assimilation effort.

  • compatibility (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mobby_6kl ( 668092 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:12PM (#8169629)
    If they can put enough flash memory on that, then why can't it replace a hard drive? Or external hard drive could be used (USB 2.0), lowering the cost but still providing an option for playing old games and using more features(downloading stuff).

  • Does this means... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Karpe ( 1147 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:12PM (#8169630) Homepage
    we can expect a Windows XP version for PPC?

    I am dying to switch from MacOS X to Windows XP, but it is the i386 price barrier I can't overcome.
  • Does it come with MyDoom pre-installed?

  • Hard drive... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lowe0 ( 136140 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:13PM (#8169637) Homepage
    The hard drive was central to many of the Xbox's coolest and most unique features. Content downloads, soundtracks, large levels cached to HD to cut load times, large save files for games such as KotOR, etc.... Without the hard drive and Live, the Xbox would have been just another game console.

    This is one case where Microsoft did a good job with v1 of the product. I'd hate to see a backward move like this for v2.

  • rely on flash memory/or-- (Score:5, Interesting)

    by way2trivial ( 601132 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:13PM (#8169638) Homepage Journal
    rely on a broadband connection, games served up by microsoft, and a monthly fee per game required to play...

    which is the better financial model?

  • While I don't put a lot of stock in these sorts of rumors, doesn't the idea of an almost complete architecture change suggest that backwards compatability is going to be difficult, HDD or no?

    Also, has there ever been a prerelease rumor about a game console that didn't claim it was going to be faster than any known computer in the universe, able to push more polygons than a high end Onyx, and so on and so forth?

  • A shift in MSFT strategy: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mekkab ( 133181 ) * on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:13PM (#8169643) Homepage Journal
    The gem from the article:
    The details suggest Microsoft is far more concerned about keeping the cost of its Xbox Next console low than it is with including dazzling technological features or driving its rivals out of the business, according to a variety of industry sources.

    The Xbox outperforms the PS2 on graphics every day. Yet, I prefer the PS2 (mostly because once you are done playing HALO, whats next?!)

    So performance is not enough. Nintendo's strategy was to underprice the behemoths, and they are still hanging on.

    So if MSFT can sell a console cheaper than the PS3, AND!! get a bunch of games developed,
    they will continue on into the future as a major player in the home console market.

    (just my 2 cents)
    • Nintendo's strategy was to underprice the behemoths, and they are still hanging on.

      They're doing a tad more than 'hanging on'. They're in second position worldwide, with the US being the only place they're in third. It used to be that in the UK they were third too, but following the drastic price-cut they're second here too at the moment.

      The PS2 remains drastically ahead of both however, and why? Well certainly brand awareness is one, but backwards compatibility would be another...

      Cheers,
      Ian

    • What I don't understand is how they are going to keep the cost down, after all 3 PPC won't be cheap + graphics chip faster/better then the R400? OK I know this would be some time from now, but I don't think the prices can drop so much.

    • Re:A shift in MSFT strategy: (Score:4, Insightful)

      by VividU ( 175339 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:26PM (#8169850)
      I love the way these myths propagate themselves on Slashdot. I bet its worthy of good sociology study.

      mostly because once you are done playing HALO, whats next?!

      MechAssault
      Crimson Skies
      Links 2004
      Knights of the Old Republic
      Halo 2 !!!
      (for starters).
      • I love the way these myths propagate themselves on Slashdot. I bet its worthy of good sociology study.

        No, I can just explain it you now: the only way you were able to get to five other playable games was by including a golf game and a game that hasn't been released yet.
  • First everybody thinks that Apple is going x86...

    Now we know it's Windows going PPC...
    (before anyone whines that XBOX != Windows... Two words (ok three): DirectX and Kernel Functions...)

  • Microsoft doesn't belong in the gaming market, they need to get thier OS woes in order befre they try to pummel another market. This division is bleeding cash and no other company would have been able to stomp in like they have. I personally want xbox2 to fail. If gaming comes down to SONY and M$ as my only choices, I'm out.

    Support Nintendo, or pay for it later with generic fps and miltiary strat out the arse.

    • I support the XBox, because competition is always good. And M$ has enough money to bleed cash on the XBox for generations to come. It's actually a good thing in this case that M$ created the XBox as opposed to another company not capable of weathering the losses until the XBox either becomes profitable or at least provides enough competition to Sony and Nintendo to improve their systems.

  • Not surprising (Score:3, Informative)

    by Samuel Duncan ( 737527 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:14PM (#8169656) Journal
    The PPC chips don't have the heat problems of Intel's or AMD's product. So you can use smaller and more importantly more silent fans and cooling.
    The only drawback is that they trade power/heat benefits for reduced performance - if main issue with PPC's. This makes me wonder why they don't use mobile processors from scratch.

    • Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jared_hanson ( 514797 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:37PM (#8170002) Homepage Journal
      You've never used one of these PPC970 chips then, if you are claiming reduced performance. PPC is a fundamentally different architecture, and one that typically yeilds both less heat and greater performance.

      So, do yourself a favor and walk into your nearest Apple store and check out a great computer with a great processor. While your at it, give the OS a chance to. You might find something better than your biases previously allowed.

  • Wintel x86 is broken! (Score:3, Funny)

    by zontroll ( 714448 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:14PM (#8169657)
    The shocking thing is it will probably run linux and some variant of *BSD, but not windoze.

  • backwards compatible (Score:4, Funny)

    by NoGuffCheck ( 746638 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:14PM (#8169665)
    to save on cost MS may not make the Xbox2 backwards compatible.. They could save a fortune if it didnt play games either!

  • backwards compatibility (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jest3r ( 458429 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:15PM (#8169669)
    I wonder if M$ will port an embedded Virtual PC to the new system to ensure backwards compatibilty. Three "G5's" should be able to achieve similar if not better performance than the current xbox 800 mHz? x86.

    Rumor has it Virtual PC 7 might have Direct 3D capabilities with Quake3 being playable on the 2Ghz G5 via the emulator.

    • Quake3 already has a native OS X port.
    • Rumor has it Virtual PC 7 might have Direct 3D capabilities with Quake3 being playable on the 2Ghz G5 via the emulator.

      Wow, a 5 year old game finally playable on a dual 2GHz G5 system? That's not really saying much is it? For the price of Virtual PC 7 and Windows XP I could've just bought a low end x86 box to play my games (which I did).

  • XBox Next's 3 PPC chips... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by anactofgod ( 68756 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:16PM (#8169693)
    are going to be named "Agnes", "Denise" and "Paula". Really! It's true!

    And "XBox Next"?

    Wonder if the Apple legal eagles are licking their chops over that choice in name.

    ---anactofgod---

  • you don't need a hard drive... (Score:5, Informative)

    by sbma44 ( 694130 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:19PM (#8169729)
    the hard drive in the xbox serves three purposes. It isn't necessary for the two important ones.
    1. Savegames. Flash memory would be more than sufficient.
    2. Downloaded content from xbox live. This is a great feature -- but if you have live, you have broadband. And if you have broadband, you have a computer. All microsoft needs to do is require you to open up a windows share where XBL can put its downloaded content. This would be perfectly adequate for most people. Could even be used by them to push their mediaPC platform (ugh).
    3. Storing ripped music for use as a soundtrack. Wanting to do this doesn't mean you already have a broadband connection and computer, so some people would lose out. Those with BB/LAN could use a windows share for this, too. I don't think this is a popular enough feature to mandate its inclusion in XBox2. An external harddrive peripheral could fill this need.

    Remember, MS has said they can't make XBox 1 profitable. You can bet they are going to try to drive down their hardware costs with XB2 so that they can actually make some money. The harddrive is a big expense that could be dispensed with without too much pain.

    • All microsoft needs to do is require you to open up a windows share...

      Opening a Windows share... right. Considering 2000/XP's file sharing is already fairly complicated to n00bs, that might be a fun exercise.

      And on a tongue-in-cheek note, I think this is the first time I've seen a comment encouraging people to use windows and open guest-enabled shared... modded to +5! :)
    • Storing ripped music for use as a soundtrack.

      Pfft, I've been using custom soundtracks since the 8bit NES. I just turned off the TV sound and put on a tape instead.
      And since the Playstation era, games have had the option to turn off music and keep the SFX, so I put a CD in (well, my computer is my jukebox now), crank up the volume and play games with the music I choose that way.

      Ah! HD stored custom soundtracks...kids these days!

  • Hmmmmm sounds familiar (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Paladine97 ( 467512 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:20PM (#8169744) Homepage
    • Power PPC cpu.
    • ATI graphics processor.
    • Flash memory.
    • No hard drive.


    Can somebody say Gamecube?
    • I have no comment on your comment other than "Power PPC"? A little redundant don't you think?

      PPC - Power Personal Computer

      So they're putting a Power Power Personal Computer chip in it. P^2PC. EAT THAT G5! (:

  • I've heard the reasons (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:26PM (#8169846)
    I've heard the reasons for not including the hard drive (I'm in the games industry), and they make sense.

    1) People don't care. Believe it or not, it's not actually a big deal to MOST people. Yes, there are lots of people that do want it, but they're a small percentage of the population. It doesn't matter what they save their games on as long as it's fast.

    2) With the PPC, backwards compatibility is already broken. Not to mention backwards compatibility is a pain in the ass for developers as well. They don't care about it, either. It's just not worth the money in the end to make a system that's backwards compatible unless it's easy. The PS1 is a single chip in the PS2. The Game Boy is pretty primitive, and is also easy to include in a GBA. For the Xbox 2 to be backwards compatible, it would either a) have to be the same architecture again or b) have an Intel 733 in there again that somehow gets used with XBox 1 games. Interestingly, the majority of the population isn't interested in backwards compatibility as a MAJOR feature anyway. It's just another bullet point to them.

    3) Hard drives are expensive. The interesting thing about hard drives is that they never get cheaper, just bigger. Microsoft gets murdered with every hard drive they put in the Xbox.

    4) They want this to be part of their digital hub thing. Since the Xbox 2 will likely have a network connection, if you want to store things more permanently, I heard mumblings about being able to do it on your PC.

    5) The hard drive does a couple other things: generate heat and take up space. Getting the size down is something that they have to do if they want to make it in the all-important Japanese market.

    6) Lastly, they don't want Linux running on Xboxes. If you want a PC, they want you to go out and buy a PC with Windows on it. The margins are better there.

    I think this new Xbox sounds exciting. I'm not a big fan of the current model, but the new one will be a huge boon to developers and gamers alike. With 3 general purpose CPUs and a unified memory system, you can do things like generate a single tree and have each processor modify the tree in memory slightly before sending it to the GPU. Voila! Instant forest with quickly generated unique trees.
  • The newest version of the xbox has already been hacked. It will contain a flash memory bootable version of something related to Darwin, which will then sit there and look cool, and do absolutely nothing since there is no hard disk, keyboard, or mouse.

  • Good controller (Score:3, Insightful)

    by samsmithnz ( 702471 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:28PM (#8169874) Homepage
    I just hope they make a controller that a kid can hold this time. And a box with a flat top, so you can stack other units (VCR's, PS2's, etc), unlike that stupid dome they have at the moment.

    The xbox was alright, but it really suffered from stupid visual and useability design decisions...

  • Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Konster ( 252488 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:30PM (#8169905)
    This does not ring in as being bullshit to anyone?

    I would have blinked if they said it has ONE CPU similar to the one in the G5, but three?

    Come on.

    • Re:Bullshit (Score:3, Funny)

      by Blakey Rat ( 99501 )
      Sony's Cell processor is going to have 7 chips working together to be 1000x more powerful than the most powerful desktop PC now!

      Like MS is the only company that releases bullshit press releases about future consoles.

  • Some thoughts: (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Random BedHead Ed ( 602081 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:30PM (#8169906) Homepage Journal
    This will put the modchip industry in a frenzy. It will involve totally new boards, and thus require new modchips. XBox Linux hackers will spend a while getting back on track ...

    ... HOWEVER, I see a combination of advantage and disadvantage. On the one hand this will require starting from scratch; I'm sure GNU/Linux can be customized to run with flash memory, or from optical media like Knoppix, but it will take time. On the other hand, Microsoft's security attention will be drawn away from the legacy model. This means that the old XBox is up for grabs, and we can expect minimal future security blockades. Old XBoxen will be VERY big sellers among Linux enthusiasts, possibly selling secondhand for as much as they sold as new, if not more.

    But regarding backaward compatibility, I wouldn't worry about it. Remember that Microsoft bought Connectix, the maker of Virtual PC, and has been looking into technologies for running virtual machines. This may be related to those efforts, and running i386 game code on a PowerPC 970 might be doable with the right emulation built into the OS.

    What really surprises me is that Windows code is well-organized enough that Microsoft thinks they can port it to another platform at all.

  • Wait a second (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:34PM (#8169962) Homepage Journal
    Does this mean that Macophiles can no longer bemoan the vileness of "Wintel" if M$ is using the same processor in one of their flagship products that Apple does.

    Will this also make it easier to port XBox titles to the Mac? Will this make the Mac a more viable gaming platform?

    LK

  • Obligatory Simpsons Reference (Score:3, Funny)

    by Aliencow ( 653119 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:36PM (#8169990) Homepage Journal
    Ugliest. Mac. Evar !

  • backwards compatible blah (Score:3, Interesting)

    by asv108 ( 141455 ) <asv@@@ivoss...com> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:38PM (#8170031) Homepage Journal
    As much as everyone is griping about backwards compatability, do you really need it? I thought it was a cool feature when buying the ps2 over 3 years ago but I never used it. I didn't have any urge to play ps1 games after playing a few ps2 titles and if I wanted to play ps1 games, I could always hook up my ps1. Its not like your going to the sell the system on eBay and make any money. Same goes for the xbox by the time the xbox 2 comes out. I would prefer MS make something new rather than be limited by a backwards compatability requirement. Look what backwards compatability did for windows :)

  • No backwards compatibility? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rdewalt ( 13105 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:41PM (#8170073) Homepage
    That's a stab in the back as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I have an X-box, and I can play the Xbox games on it.

    But, as a part-time salesdroid, one of the larger selling points of the PS2, at least as far as "Parents buying for Kids" is concerned, is that they can just plug in the PS2 where the PS1 is, the OLD games still play on it, and the new games will as well.

    To me, that was one of the wisest decisions of Sony, as well as keeping the -same- form factor of their interconnects. Nintendo was close, but had the N64 been able to play the NES/SNES games out of the box? There would have been no contest in that segment of the console wars.

    No HD? Fine, I can deal with that. I'll get a mem card. I have one for my OTHER consoles, I can do that with the Xbox2. But -please- don't make me have to purchase an additional kit just to play DVD's... my PS2 doesn't need it, why should the Xbox?

    Also, ditch the "Xbox Only" games. FINE, so your competitors can get a shot at them. If your hardware is -superior- are you really worried? These days, since I now own pretty much all of the 'current' consoles, if I'm getting a game, I go for the one that looks, and 'feels' the best. I'm not a platform zealot.

    And take a lesson from the Nintendo Book Of Things To Not Do. (That they seem to be good at writing, but never reading from.) Don't make your controller look like a Klingon Hand-to-Hand weapon. Don't add more buttons Just Because You Can.

    And while you're at it, sure, your games are targetted at "Mature Gamers"... from my experience as a salesdroid, that's where you're losing to all the other systems. Other than "Barbie rides a horse again" game for girls, and the occasional sports game or what have you, 90% of your titles, a parent isn't going to purchase, even for a teen, because its Questionable. I'm not saying, take the Nintendo Route Of Least Offensiveness And Family Entertainment. Just take some of your Huge Wad Of Cash, and make a few Games Parents Will Buy For Their Kids. You don't know how many copies of Mario Party / Mario Cart I've sold to parent's who bought it because "Well, its a Mario game..."

    (Oh, like Microsoft will read my slashdot post and listen to me.)

  • OMG! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Dracolytch ( 714699 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @12:50PM (#8170181) Homepage
    "Internally, Microsoft has begun developing game prototypes, and it is using G5 systems to do so."

    Thanks MS... I'm gonna have a smile on my face all goddamned day.

    ~D

  • this rumor is very likely incorrect (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:05PM (#8170400)
    Seeing as how MS wants to keep the cost down, the XBox2 certainly uses 3 IBM "Cell" cores, not G5 chips. G5 chips are affordable, Cell is downright cheap.

    This is the same core that the PS3 uses, and it is going to use it for the same reasons. Low cost, high performance.

    3 G5 cores would take up a lot of space die space, certainly a whole chip. 3 Cell cores would still leave space for plenty of other things on the same chip, perhaps even the graphics accelerator.

  • Backwards Compatability (Score:3, Insightful)

    by beelsebob ( 529313 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:10PM (#8170463)
    IIRC the XBox only has a 500mhz chip in it, now it strikes me that three G5s (probably running at 2Ghz odd) could emulate that quite effectively - remember that emulation works well in SMP environments (one CPU emulates while the other executes the code it generates), and these PPC chips are significantly faster than the chip currently in the XBox - Also remember that Microsoft now owns Virtual PC and they are attempting to add hardware 3D support to it... All the pieces seem to fit for this one.

    Bob

  • Dupe! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 42forty-two42 ( 532340 ) <bdonlan.gmail@com> on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @01:22PM (#8170635) Homepage Journal
    Old article here [slashdot.org]

  • "Insanely stupid"?! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anita Coney ( 648748 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @02:01PM (#8171189) Homepage
    If the Xbox Next is not backwards compatible, it will be destroyed by the PS3.

    First, on the day of release the PS3 will be able to play all PS2, PS1, and the new PS3 games. Thus, it will have several times more available games than the Xbox Next.

    Second, people do not want to have multiple consoles in their living room, especially ones the size of the current Xbox. Sure, some people might have a PS2 and an Xbox, but when the Xbox Next and the PS3 are released, the choice will be easy. If you choose the PS3 you'll still only need two consoles. But if you choose the Xbox Next, you'll need three.

    Third, people don't like being screwed. When people invest in games and hardware, they like knowing that they don't have to throw them away every few years. Sony respects that and allows gamers to keep their investments.

  • Hard drive... trial balloon? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by steveha ( 103154 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @03:13PM (#8172237) Homepage
    This bit about the hard drive might be a "trial balloon". This isn't an official announcement, so MS can still say "we never said we would do that; it was only a rumor." Now they will see how much people care about the hard disk.

    If they do release without a hard disk, you will still be able to get one. It will be in an external box. They will probably have a special "storage" port, which should be a FireWire port, because FireWire can provide enough power to run a hard disk (only one cable needed).

    If they are smart, they will not make some wacky custom connector; people should be able, for instance, to use their iPod as their XBox2 hard disk, and then take it with them to their friends' homes for gaming. (Even if they make a wacky connector, someone will make a custom cable so you can connect your iPod anyway.)

    Initially I thought this was just a wild rumor. But the quotes in the newspaper article, about how most games don't even use the hard disk, were interesting.

    steveha

  • AMD? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by owlstead ( 636356 ) on Tuesday February 03, 2004 @05:03PM (#8173624)
    I wonder what will be there first, a 64 bit Windows OS for the Opteron / Athlon 64 (and FX, for completeness sake), or a 64 bit Windows OS for the XBox deux? Seems to me that Microsoft is protecting Intels intrests with one -er- foot and kicking them in the parts with another.

    Or are they just trying to presurise Intel with this? It would not be the first time that Microsoft would say "thank you but goodbye" to a company that was sure they were on the same side. IBM is a very dangerous company to ditch though.

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