On Going Pro At Magic - The Gathering 108
VonGuard writes "It's been 12 years since Magic: the Gathering was released, by WotC, and the game is now six million players strong. The East Bay Express has a long-form piece narrating the trials and tribulations of a man who's trying to turn pro at this addictive trading card game . Richard Garfield is always demanding the mind athletes be treated with the same respect as physical athletes. As you can see in the story, however, we're not quite there yet."
Pro? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Pro? (Score:5, Insightful)
Magic: The Gathering isn't a role-playing game, it's a competitive card game with definite winning and losing states (utterly unlike most pen-and-paper RPGs). Going pro at magic is thus much more akin to being a professional poker/chess/(other competitive intellectual game of your choice) player than acting, which it shares little if anything in common with.
Re:Pro? (Score:2)
Maybe I should pick some of these cards up sometime and have a go at it...
Re:Pro? (Score:4, Informative)
If you want to play in the tournaments, you have to spend a fortune as there's a new expansion every 3-4 months, and expansions are removed from the tournament cycle with regularity. To stay competitive, you have to keep buying new cards. I had a friend who played tournaments and he'd buy two BOXES of booster packs every time a new expansion came out. That's about $200 I think. Maybe more now. It's a complete money pit, but hey, if you have fun and can afford it, good luck to you.
I used to collect the cards, have over 6000 of them. The aforementioned friend used to send me his doubles of his common cards (there's common, uncommon and rare. The rare cards go for a quite a price in some cases. I have single cards worth over $10). I used to wind up with 6-8 of each common. That was after he had taken enough for his deck building needs.
It's definitely fun to play, but bear in mind a lot of kids play it too. Finding mature players may be a trick.
Re:Pro? (Score:2, Funny)
$10? Somewhere at home I have a little box that contains a Library of Alexandria, 4 Mana Drains, and a Time Walk. (My Mox Sapphire disappeared during a pro tour qualifier a few years ago)
$10? Pshaw.
Re:Pro? (Score:1)
The best plan to amass a card fortune, though, is to get good at drafting.
The single best Magic format, however, is multiplayer.
No real winnings or serious competition so the money issue is gone, you're playing with friends so they're mature enough for you, and you don't have to worry about cards rotating out or cards being restricted.
Re:Pro? (Score:2)
Brick&Morter. ~100.
Re:Pro? (Score:3, Insightful)
And Draft, widely regarded as the most skill-intensive format, doesn't even require you to own any cards; you sit down at a table with seven other people, pass packs around while you each take a card in turn, and then make decks from the cards you pull.
The only format where price matters and where $300 cards are legal is Type 1, the format that inclu
Re:Pro? (Score:1)
Luck plays a big part. The draw you get. As I said in another post (though maybe the one that disappeared on me), in Poker, you get a bad hand, you can bluff and maybe still win. In Magic, you get a bad hand, it's game over.
I disagree about it being for idiots who buy the best card. Everything the previous poster said is correct.
And such a well-written article, too... (Score:3, Funny)
Yep, those are definitely the words of a great journalist. It gives the whole thing amazing authority. ;)
Other choice quotes (Score:2)
Can you imagine it? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Can you imagine it? (Score:1)
Re:Can you imagine it? (Score:1)
Although for the World Championships, the Sideboard Online had some live video coverage. I watched the last part of the Wake vs Wake finals. Grueling, man, grueling. Watching that it wasn't hard to see why ESPN didn't broadcast it.
Re:Can you imagine it? (Score:1)
I can't believe (Score:1, Interesting)
I've met people who still play, and I see them at the local game store. But I just don't understand them anymore. In the early days it was cool because CCGs were a new thing. And Magic was the first big one. Nowadays though, it is no longer a game of skill or strategy. It is a
Re:I can't believe (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, there is an element luck involved, but would you say that all that poker is is a game of luck? Of course not. The same applies to magic. The reason that certain players [wizards.com] (kai budde, jon finkel, etc.) consistantly place well at pro tours and grand prix is because they are simply the best there are at the game. period. they dedicate themselves to the game (some people take a year off from work/school to "go
Re:I can't believe (Score:2)
not to mention that expensive cards != ( for all you vb6 guys) good at the game.
!= is not valid in VB6. You're thinking of <>.
Re:I can't believe (Score:3, Insightful)
Your comment about "It is a
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
But, if your cards are basically going to expire after two years, then in order to compete you have to keep buying more cards. So money still is a factor.
As compared to bridge or chess where once you buy the deck, or the game, you can compete with it for the rest of your life.
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
And (despite what people who have never seen T1 played will tell you), Standard is the most expensive format out of them all if you play it for any length of time; a much better benchmark would be Extended, which rotates only once every several years and which has environment shifts far less drasti
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
My best Magic memories are of playing Chaos multiplayer with big groups of friends. I killed several people the other week with a Jokulhaups because some poor fool had a Dingus Egg out. And every once and a while me and a friend or two in a good position will hold instant-speed direct damage spells and counterspells and threaten poor players with one or two life left into doing our bidding.
Re:I can't believe (Score:2, Funny)
Main reason I've collected the cards though is for the art.
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
This statement simply isn't true for Type 2 (the current expansion block, last expansion block, and the base sets are the only legal sets), or Sealed Deck or Draft formats.
Right now, in Type 2, the Affinity deck is very competetive, and it requires 2 or 3 copies of a rare card, the deck might cost you $15 and some time to borrow commons and uncommons from friends.
An
Re:I can't believe (Score:2)
Depends on the environment you play in. Hell, even the basic game rules have changed to a great degree since you were playing. Whole new ball of wax. If you think skill doesn't determine who wins, you pick any deck you want, I'll play you with one of my cheapie decks and we'll see how fast you win.
Re:I can't believe (Score:1)
such as my deck that turns all land into forests and taps them to gain life (with lifetaps).
or my elf/ big green deck which basically just builds up mana faster than you can say "Elder Dragon."
Or my reanimator deck that can get the large monsters (7/7 and above) out on the third turn.
then there's the plague rat deck (20 swamps, 35 plague rats, 10 dark rituals)
Athletes of the Mind (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Athletes of the Mind (Score:2)
Obviously the most expensive deck isn't a guarantee of a win, but it will let you place well. How is that unlike any other sport on earth, though? Team sports (the team that can afford the best players will generally do damn well), bobsledding (He who can afford the best engineered sled will do really well), any sport involving individual strength/speed (he who can afford the latest "one-step ahead
Re:Athletes of the Mind (Score:2)
Re:Athletes of the Mind (Score:1)
Steroid cocktails don't make a difference at a local road race, because no one is using them. Neither do expensive running shoes.
But in Magic, money matters immediately. Especially on the casual level, the players stratify clearly based on money spent on cards. The player who buys two boosters a week is better than the player who buys one is better than the player who buys one every other week.
Re:Athletes of the Mind (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Athletes of the Mind (Score:1)
So, firstly, cost. Draft play, Rochester draft in particular, is the most skill-intensive Magic format. Cost to play for a day is 3 boosters plus anything the organising event charges, so typically a total of about $15. If you were playing a LAN game tournament, that would probably cost a comparable amount.
If you want to play constructed-deck MtG, sure, you can spend a bunch of money on it. You'd have to spend a bunch of money on golf too to get really
Re:Athletes of the Mind (Score:1)
Re:Athletes of the Mind & Wallet & Travel (Score:1)
Cheapest barrier of entry: Entering a single Sealed Deck tournament will cost $30 or less. You don't need to own a single Magic card to do this. Just show up. This is certainly a reasonable cost.
You *can* buy every single card from the past year, if you like, for hundreds of dollars, which will let you be as competitive as anyone else. Is that a bar
Expensive sport (Score:3, Interesting)
The only games I could still bring myself to play are the 1 pack tournaments. Everyone gets one brand new pack of cards, and thats all you have to play with. This forced you to think on the fly and develop strategy as you drew cards because you couldn't set up the deck beforehand. Quite a fun way to play (allthough you still had to buy a new pack every time you wanted to play it)
Re:Expensive sport (Score:1)
If you ever feel like getting back into the game a little bit, draft is very fun. Eight people sit around a table, and you each get three boosters. Everyone opens the first booster, takes a card, passes it to the person sitting next to them, who takes a card, who passes it, etc, until all the boosters have been gone through. Then you make decks out of those cards.
And if you still have your old cards, multiplayer is fun, or if you want to play a little competitively there's al
Re:Expensive sport (Score:2)
Wow, that sounds really like the variable reward theory that Skinner came up with. Read up on Skinner Boxes to find out about it. It's the science behind psychological addiction. Everquest does this too which you can read a paper on here [nickyee.com].
That's why I stop
From the article... (Score:4, Funny)
Boy, can this sucker write! New York Times, here he comes!
Re:From the article... (Score:2)
throw new LanguageDilutionException(); (Score:4, Funny)
Mind athletes?? The last time I checked, an Athlete [reference.com] is someone who required good physical attributes in order to be sucessful. The term "Mind Athlete" makes no sense whatsoever [reference.com].
Lets call these people what they are...gamers. Being a gamer is nothing to be ashamed of, and I would love to see more professional gaming, and more pro gamers. This goes for both the electronic and "pencil and paper" variety.
But come on people, is Gary Kasparov a "Mind Athelete"? Maybe gatorade can come out with a new marketing campaign:
"When you're trying to decide between bishop to R3 or a queen gambit, your body depletes essential minerals and nutrients..."
Re:throw new LanguageDilutionException(); (Score:5, Interesting)
You might want to consider your own references [reference.com] before calling a definition incorrect:
3. One fitted for, or skilled in, intellectual contests; as, athletes of debate.
Re:throw new LanguageDilutionException(); (Score:2)
Re:throw new LanguageDilutionException(); (Score:1)
Re:throw new LanguageDilutionException(); (Score:2)
Interesting that someone who would complain about the usage of language would have a subject that tries to convey an idea in code.
Knew a guy like this once... (Score:1)
Wonder what happened to him...
Wallet: The Emptying? (Score:3, Funny)
(Note, I did use to play this game, so this is not a troll. It's a great game, I even won some local competitions, but one day I woke up and didn't want to play it any more. Just no urge whatsoever. Perhaps I should give it another go. Wallet: The Emptying *is* pretty accurate though).
MtG is not a good example of a mind sport (Score:4, Interesting)
Magic the Gathering, on the other hand, is deplored by some fundamentalist christians for the pictures it uses, known perhaps more for its business side than its academic side, and continually changing the dynamic of the game.
Don't get me wrong, it's already harder for an intellectual athlete to get funding to go to international meets for the more traditional academic competitions, and a local basketball trophy will usually be more proudly displayed than an international medal even for the better accepted intelectual athletics. I just think MtG is likely to generate even less respect.
But it is a good mindsport (Score:4, Insightful)
This game is deep, and in a much less artificial way than, for example, being able to read out 50 moves in a go game. That's not to say that it is as deep as Go, just that it is deep in a way that is both more interesting to the average player and more likely to be watched by the average viewer (in this country).
Of course they don't teach it to children... Children are so interested in learning about it that they teach themselves. That kind of interest draws quite a large business side, an unfortunate but expected side-effect. And there was a time when Christian Fundamentalists decried all card games, including Bridge, as the devil's work.
The Olympics are not the be-all-end-all of what can be considered a worthy pursuit. The Nagano Olympics had ski shooting. Ski shooting. I rest my case.
Re:But it is a good mindsport (Score:1)
If you do, thats pretty damn impressive. They cross country ski for a while racing to get to one of the lil places with the lil targets. Then they have to pull off their rifle and shoot the targets. I don't know much about shooting but I know enough to know that weezing for air with a racing heart dosen't make it easy. Sure its a random combination, unless you're trying to train mountain troops, but its not an easy one.
And many possible rule revisions (Score:1)
Bridge, Go, Chess at least have very defined rules. Bridge relies on luck of the draw somewhat, but even with a bad hand, there ar
Let me get this straight... (Score:2)
Ladies and gentlemen...the Man Who's Never Grown Up!
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:1)
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:2)
:)
As usual... (Score:2)
Bear in mind, not all collectible card games suffer from "rich kid wins" syndrome. Speicifically, there was a truly strategic (and tactical) CCG which was introduced in 2001: Z-G [boardgamegeek.com],
respect vs. buying a ticket (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it challenging? Yes. Does it deserve respect? Sure it does. Is it entertaining to watch? Hell no it isn't!
demographics (Score:2)
Rich Kid Wins syndrome (Score:1)
I never thought these words would be spoken on slas
Re:Rich Kid Wins syndrome (Score:2)
You must be new here.
Re:Rich Kid Wins syndrome (Score:1, Insightful)
Richard Garriot made Magic so that is never true (or almost never). If a creature is bigger it costs more, if it has a special ability it costs more. It's more like rock-paper-scissors, for every advantage ther
Re:Rich Kid Wins syndrome (Score:1, Troll)
I still says the finest CCG ever was the original Jyhad, with no expansions.
Re:Rich Kid Wins syndrome (Score:1)
Very true. Nigh half of my Gravekeeper deck is made up of common cards (not Short Print/Uncommon) and it can give most other decks a very hard time. It's very annoying to my opponent. Unless I'm up against a perfected (up to the current set) tournament-worthy deck, I will, more often than not, win.
Re:Rich Kid Wins syndrome (Score:2)
The Magic Pro Tour is an Illusion (Score:5, Informative)
99.995% of those who attempt or think they can make a living playing Magic, are dreaming. The prizes are very top-heavy, so that only the top 4 players per Pro Tour event (6 per year) can even hope to turn a decent profit.
And that's only for one year! Next year they have to manage an insane finish once again. Rarely do "name" players actually make repeat Top 4's in Pro Tours. I could count on 1.5 hands the number of players that are making a good living (i.e. 30K/yr) off this game.
I even made a nice little chart: http://goa_entranced.tripod.com/pic/protour.jpg (damn filter refuses an underscore in the URL. [tripod.com])
And yet, there are hundreds of thousands of players who chase the illusion of making a living playing Magic.
You've got to hand it to Wizards, they have hit a goldmine of addicts.
Re:The Magic Pro Tour is an Illusion (Score:1)
One of the (former) World Champions of Magic the Gathering, Brian Kibler, was one of my brother's close friends in high school. Kibler went on to win the Nationals, and I believe that he placed second in the world for at least one year. It was very cool having a world-champion help me and my bro build our decks
Brian actually won several thousand dollars in one summer of playing...
I wonder what he's up to now.
-Sinter
Re:The Magic Pro Tour is an Illusion (Score:1)
He's probably one of the 100 best Magic players in the World.
Re:The Magic Pro Tour is an Illusion (Score:2)
It's an illusion, but I still have fun (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's an illusion, but I still have fun (Score:1)
The reason I still play at all is because I love the game. The amount of strategy is incredible. It's got so much variety (especially Limited), compared to deathly boring games such as Chess.
I play mostly on Magic Online [wizards.com] these days, and I wish I could make a living off it. I guess that's what everyone hopes to do, make a living off their favourite hobby.
Barriers to entry (Score:2)
Aye. And it can be done, providing there's enough demand for it and the hobby isn't too expensive to pursue. I started programming as a hobbyist, and because my hobby was cheap (a low end PC and the odd O'Reilly book) I was able to survive as a freelancer and develop my skills until I was good enough to get a regular coding job. (It helped that the job market was in better shape then).
My other hobby, DJing, has more in c
Off topic, but.... (Score:2)
=-------=
What surprises me... (Score:4, Funny)
And I read the whole thing.
Re:What surprises me... (Score:1)
Thank you
Fair enough (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm surprised they haven't gotten to the point that there's a 1 colourless rare artifact with T:Defeat target opponent.
That's what stopped me playing the game really. Although every now and then I'll play multiplayer with a group of friends. Some of the guys use proxies, I didn't like that to start with but proxies are definately better than having everyone sink bucketloads of money into new cards all the time. And multiplayer games are a lot more relaxing than sweaty duels with nerds who consider winning more important than life itself!
Re:Fair enough (Score:2)
You seem to be a little out of the loop. Wizards of the Coast stopped that trend about 4 years ago, when most games came down to a coin flip due to the excessive power and synergy of the cards they printed. They realized their mistake, and all sets released after that have a pretty similar power level. They sell cards to tournament players mainly because they artificially disallow cards that haven't beem printed in 2 years from the tournaments.
I have to agree with you in your other point though: multiplaye
Against the SuperBowl? (Score:2)
I'm a big role player, and while I can see the LARP crossover, I've never understood why people confuse this with RPGs. Ditto for computer games. Sure there's plenty of general geek crossover, but they are very different. I've watched the past decade as 'gamer' went from someone who can wield d4s as caltrops to somebody who is up on the latest PS2 release.
Don't misinterpret me - card games are a l
Re:Against the SuperBowl? (Score:1)
Re:Against the SuperBowl? (Score:2)
--
Evan
Re:Against the SuperBowl? (Score:2)
Team Challenge - June 7, 2000, 2:30 PM
Pro Tour New York - June 20, 2000, 2:30 PM
US Nationals - July 7, 2000, 2:00 PM
US Nationals Draft Challenge - July 20, 2000, 2:00 PM
World Championships - September 6, 2000, 1:00 & September 29, 2000, 1:00 PM
Pro Tour New York - October 24, 2000, 1:30 PM
Pro Tour Chicago - December 20, 2000, 1:00 PM
I've also seen some places where they said the world championships aired on ES
Re:Against the SuperBowl? (Score:2)
--
Evan
Let me try this again (Score:1)
Expensive (Score:2, Informative)
Since everyone has access to the same cards it becomes clear who is good at making decks, of course there are problems with people who simply copy the decks of pro's and the game isn't actually deep enough to render that tactic invalid. Good decks basically exp
Re:Expensive (Score:1)
Re:Expensive (Score:1)
Re:Expensive (Score:1)
I believe you can get that if you go to the download section [wizards.com] of the WotC site.
Re:Expensive (Score:1)
Magic is not 11 (Score:2, Informative)
Wizards of the Coast celebrated Magic's 10th anniversary at GenCon last year. From their 10th anniversary page [wizards.com]:
In 1993, Magic: The Gathering created the trading card game category. Today, it's the best trading card game in the world, enjoyed by over six million players.
Imagine... (Score:1)
Re:Imagine... (Score:1)
ive been asking around as to what they are like and either no one is brave enough to actually say they are worth the high price, or people have nothing to compare them to in order to be sure that the experience is real
if you dont mind me asking you to be a little more specific in your recommendation
Re:Imagine... (Score:1)
Jesus Christ, lighten up and learn to take a joke.
live a dream... (Score:1)
The moment the majority of your fate in a tourney is decided is the moment you build your