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XBox (Games) Entertainment Games Hardware

Xbox 2 Storage Supplier Says No Hard Drive 99

Posted by CowboyNeal from the surprise-design-changes dept.
Loadmaster writes "Dov Moran of M-Systems, who recently closed a deal with Microsoft to provide 'customized memory units' for the next Xbox, spills the beans. He says Xbox 2 will not have a hard drive in an interview with the Israeli website Globes Online. No details on how their memory solution will replace the HDD, though." Regardless, Moran seems pretty confident in the agreement with Microsoft, so it's likely that the Xbox 2's storage system is now in M-System's hands. S!: Also worth noting is a GameSpot story which has an Xbox spokesperson claiming: "Mr. Moran is aimlessly speculating... we've made no such announcements about future Xbox products and services."
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Xbox 2 Storage Supplier Says No Hard Drive More

Xbox 2 Storage Supplier Says No Hard Drive

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  • So what you're saying is that Microsoft is totally abandoning their online strategy?

    That or they're selling the hard drive as an extra to squeeze more cash out of people.

    The first seems unlikely, the second is just bleh.

    Guess I'll stick to Nintendo.

    • Re:So what you're saying... (Score:5, Funny)

      by MachDelta ( 704883 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @12:23AM (#8472707)
      No, they're purchasing a whackload of that Flash memory they used on the Mars rovers. That way, peoples Xboxes will randomly lock up and refuse to do anything unless a tech support guy 8000 miles away sends it a command.

      All in M$ style, of course.
    • "So what you're saying is that Microsoft is totally abandoning their online strategy?"

      What? How does not having an HD mean they're abandoning online strategy>
      • PS2 Online is utterly useless in comparison, though. It's a free-for-all mess, not disimilar to online PC gaming. You have to enter your internet settings seperately for each game, have different user accounts for different publishers, there's no cross-game invitation or buddy system etc. Compare that to the integration and relative simplicity of XBox Live.
        • Well, if what you say about the online PS2 experience is true, then that really is pathetic. Even the Dreamcast allowed enter once, use for any game network settings...

          Not that the XBox doesn't have a really good setup as far as online console gaming goes.

        • "You have to enter your internet settings seperately for each game"

          Wrong. The disc that comes with the network adapter saves all connection settings to the memory card when you set it up. Have you actually played a PS2 online game?

          "there's no cross-game invitation or buddy system etc."

          Wrong again. EA Sports games include a buddy system and cross-game invitation. You noted that you need different user accounts for different publishers. You should realize that there is integration of user accounts and bud

    • Umm... did they say there will not be a large capacity storage device in the xbox 2, or just not a conventional hard drive. That company makes storage media up to 47GB.

      Hell, a couple gigs of space should be plenty to store game saves and some extra maps, etc.

      I dont see what everyone is getting so worked up about. As long as its not like the current PS2 or Gamecube, who cares...

  • Hard drive in some (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bsharitt ( 580506 ) * <bridget AT sharitt DOT com> on Friday March 05, 2004 @12:21AM (#8472698) Journal
    I'm guessing that their base game unit will not have a hard drive, but they will have a more expensive deluxe PVR model that will have a harddrive.

    • That's what most people think. It seems plausible since most games don't use the hard drive much. Halo and Morrowind use the caching feature, but most games don't. And the custom soundtrack feature isn't supported well, either. You're probably right that the hard drive will be an upgrade feature for PVR and media functions. I assume the memory installed will allow for cache and content downloads.

      Join the Air Force. Be a C-17 Loadmaster.
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    • That is one possibilty, but I think they will want to keep things more simple than that. I know the games that are out for Xbox are made to recognize a HD. And they will want it to be backwards compatible, so I am guessing that when all is said and done it wil have a Hard Drive.

      I have read articles that speculate that the PS3's content will all be online, the games you will download, etc. So Maybe Xbox will try to do some of that as well, focus more on the downloading of material and less on the games bei

  • M-Systems Disk On Chip in there? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ObviousGuy ( 578567 ) <ObviousGuy@hotmail.com> on Friday March 05, 2004 @12:24AM (#8472714) Homepage Journal
    I for one would love to see more solid-state parts used in these game consoles. The more moving parts a thing has, the more likely it is that those things will break. By removing them and replacing them with solid-state devices, it makes the failure rate of the these things due to hardware failure drop considerably.

    But that's just the consumer's POV.

    More to the heart of the matter, Microsoft would likely be doing this because of the inability of hackers to easily replace the contents of a DOC with their own personal OS image, be it Linux or NetBSD. The reprogrammable DOC is great in its ease of update, if you've got the programming hardware. Otherwise, you have to find a way using the existing OS to update the OS image. You can be sure that MS will make that close to impossible.

    But then again, I've never really cared about Linux on the XBox. It always seemed like one of those Everest platforms: you do it because it's there.

    • Re:M-Systems Disk On Chip in there? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Innominate Milquetoa ( 695071 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @12:45AM (#8472811)
      Microsoft would likely be doing this because of the inability of hackers to easily replace the contents of a DOC with their own personal OS image, be it Linux or NetBSD.
      Actually, I'd say it's to prevent people from putting their own 160G hard drives in and downloading game images to it. The XBox (not surprisingly) proved to be one of the easiest consoles to mod. There's even a purely software-based way [sourceforge.net] to do it. Those who know this have approximately 2 legitimate copies of games (Halo and MechAssault), and about 30 illegitimate images sitting on their hard drives. A non-standard storage medium would make this kind of thing all that much harder.
    • Microsoft doesn't care about people putting other operating systems onto Xbox. It's not a big enough chunk of people to make any difference to them.

      The main thing that will concern them is cost. Hard drives are big and expensive - the hard drive is probably the most expensive component in the Xbox. If they can get rid of it, it makes a lot more financial sense to them.

      There is also the fact that the hard drive makes it easier to pirate games, but to be honest I don't think that's as big a problem as the s

  • Backward Compatibility? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aweraw ( 557447 ) <aweraw@gmail.com> on Friday March 05, 2004 @12:25AM (#8472720) Homepage Journal
    So i guess this rules out any question of backward compatibility for Xbox games that make use of the hard drive... That is unless of course they stock the XB2 with 10G of flash memory, in which case, it's price tag is going to be astronomical... and what about the touted "Media Center" functionality of the Xbox? How will you rip your songs to the HDD if there isn't one?

    • Re:Backward Compatibility? (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The M-Systems stuff is identical, interface-wise, to a hard disk.

      For the most part, at levels above the actual driver, nothing has any idea that it is reading and writing an IDE drive.
      • I have no doubt of that... but in terms of storage, how much is there going to be? Some games use swap space (though I'm not sure of the amount they utilize in terms of MB) I would expect that regardless of the hardware interface, they latency compared to an acctual hard drive will make them unplayable... In my experience, flash memory is *MUCH* slower than a fully fledged plater HD. Not to mention alot more expensive... The upside is, no moving parts to eventually wear down and fail...

        /rant

        • Re:Backward Compatibility? (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          From their website, the following is some performance information on the 2.5 Inch IDE Plus: Performance Burst Read/Write: 16.7 MBytes/sec DMA-2 transfer mode: Sustained Read: 8.3-8.7 MBytes/sec (up to 13MB/s with customize s/w) Sustained Write: 8.0-12.0 MBytes/sec PIO-4 transfer mode: Sustained Read: 7.3-7.6 MBytes/sec (r/w sector or multi 16 commands) Sustained Write: 7.7-10.1 MBytes/sec (r/w sector or multi 16 commands) Access time: 0.04 ms
      • The M-Systems stuff is identical, interface-wise, to a hard disk.

        For the most part, at levels above the actual driver, nothing has any idea that it is reading and writing an IDE drive.

         Um meta mods? Someone needs their account revoked for modding this guy down. This, if true sheds light on the subject and is an important peice of information for people thinking of buying Xbox 2.
        So... MOD PARENT UP!
    • From their website, they offer the following sizes of their 2.5 Inch IDE Plus product:

      Capacity - Unformatted (MBytes) 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 3072, 4096, 5120, 6144, 7168, 8192, 9216, 10240, 12288, 14336, 16384, 18432, 20480, 22528, 24576, 26624, 28672, 30720, 32768, 34816, 36864, 38912, 40960, 43008, 45056, 47104

  • DVD rw? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Fiz Ocelot ( 642698 )
    I wouldn't rule out MS putting in a re-writeable dvd drive. They retail under 100 bucks these days, so if they struck a deal with some company it could be rather cost effective.

    Games didn't really use the HD much anyways. And I bet one dvd-rw would be enough to hold all the extra game content you download for a very long time.

    • Re:DVD rw? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Psykechan ( 255694 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @01:38AM (#8473045)
      I wouldn't rule out MS putting in a re-writeable dvd drive.

      I would. Large rewritable removable media is the last thing that MS wants. Built in DVD-R just screams for piracy. Besides, it's also a hassle to consumers that would have to switch discs frequently.

      Look for extra game content to be stored online and distributed in a somewhat peer-to-peer model in the vein of BitTorrent [bitconjurer.org]. Be it a new multiplayer map or a single player campaign, the first user would download the content from the servers and the rest could get it from peers.

      They [rewritable DVD drives] retail under 100 bucks these days, so if they struck a deal with some company it could be rather cost effective.

      True. They may well be less than that in quantities but that doesn't automatically mean that they are cost effective. MS is finding the additional price for the built in hard disk drive in the current Xbox isn't cost effective and they probably get great deals on those.

      Games didn't really use the HD much anyways.

      From an end user standpoint, you're right. There are games that create obscenely large save games and a bit of downloadable content for others but aside from these (and custom soundtracks) the HDD doesn't seem to get much use.

      The truth is that many games, mostly first and second party games, use it for virtual memory or for spooling data. A good chunk of the Xbox OS, such as the dashboard, is also on the drive. Granted the Xbox 2 will have much more than 64MB of RAM but developers will just have to deal with no HDD. Those that are programming for multiple platforms may not even notice.

      An add-in hard disk drive could still be a viable option for games that absolutely need it but people will just have to plunk down more cash for it. Heck, people are already paying $200+ for Steel Battalion. Sony is banking on Final Fantasy XI to sell the PS2 HDD; MS could simply make it a requirement for Halo 3 if they want a maximum install base... and it's a bonus if it includes the ability to play old Xbox 1 games.

      • Re:DVD rw? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by bluGill ( 862 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @10:04AM (#8475043)

        Think Sega Dreamcast, IIRC many Sega games had two tracks, one normal CD track, and one higher density track. Build a two part DVD, the inner part normal pressed DVD, the outer part (basically whats left after your game) DVD+rw. All the game save files go on the disk, just like GBA cartrages store saved games. If you want to do game updates, just press only a loader and a couple graphics images, and burn the rest.

        This has a good anti-piracy measure: just turn the write laser on in the pressed part, and if there is anything left you know it is a real pressed disk and legitimate.

        Microsoft has the money to design such a disk, and setup the manufacturing. Volume sales might never make up for the costs, but they have already prooven they don't care about profit too much yet.

        Note that if I were going to design this I'd use a DVD-RAM for the writeable section, both because give more write cycles, and it is rare enough that most people can't write it. Do your lasers right, and even if someone manages copy a game to a rw (+/-), they won't be able to save any of their games.

    • I wouldn't rule out MS putting in a re-writeable dvd drive.

      Right, so then I can pirate the games using Microsoft's own console? They should put 3 or 4 rewritable drives in there so I can copy the game for my friends at the same time!
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • The HDD don't get used much? So where do you think all that cached information from the game is going?

  • The only thing that is clear.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HotNeedleOfInquiry ( 598897 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @01:14AM (#8472933)
    Is that Dov Moran of M-Systems is a blithering idiot. To shoot off your mouth like that on a Microsoft deal has to be like pissing on the third rail. Especially after the SCO shit this morning.

    I predict he will be looking for a new job tomorrow.
    • Indeed, simply mentioning that the Xbox Next wouldn't have a hard drive is a bad, bad move. The next-gen console wars have already begun and I'm sure all three companies are holding back on some of their secrets (maybe the PS3 will surf the net, be a TiVo, play PS2, PS1, and PS3 games all in one?).

      Shooting off his mouth without confirmation, let alone permission (for all we knows it could be an add-on, a la headset or external transferable memory card, and not actually part of the Xbox Next since theres no

  • other angles (Score:5, Informative)

    by JDizzy ( 85499 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @01:20AM (#8472962) Homepage Journal
    Maybe Microsoft also is also looking for ways to lockdown the hardware, and prevent people from installing linux. Possibly using a more compact form of memory which they can control better. You know the old moto: "embrace and extend". Microsoft need only pervert something for their proprietary needs, and lockout reverse engineering.

    Another issue might be simply mechanical, hence the notion of reducing the need for moving parts. Since solidstate memory is increasing in capacity, and price. One cannot arge against the percieved advantage of having a hdd for large scale storage. I dump entire CD's to my xbox, and play them in games, or use the xbox as a primitive juke to play the entire collection. So possibly Microsoft is opening up an after market for add-on hard drives? Their stance being that you get "enough" storage for game-state saves, and if you need more get an add on memory module for your controller, or get the option hard drive. It certaily helps to leave space for the the extra hardware in the enclosure just in case they decide to include them later on (depending on what sony does).

    • You know the old moto: "embrace and extend".

      We know the motto, but it doesn't apply here, and you obviously don't understand it.

      The idea is that you subvert an existing standard by adopting it (embrace) then add non-standard features/capabilities/whatever (extend). Once people come to rely upon these proprietary capabilities, anything truly compliant with the regular standard is either less attractive to a consumer, or not an option for those who are "locked in" by a reliance on those features.

      Since the
      • We know the motto, but it doesn't apply here, and you obviously don't understand it.

        I'm sure it makes you feel better to randomly belittle others. FYI: I belive my comments are valid, yet that you read them wrong, just blantantly cannot read? For example, MS desision to use solid state memory could be something as simple as CF form factor memory, with the pin out changed, or a different operational voltage. In other words embrace and Extend. It was just an example, and I was attempting to demontrate how
        • something as simple as CF form factor memory, with the pin out changed, or a different operational voltage

          That still isn't embrace and extend. That's just a purely custom solution which happens to have started life as a standard piece of equipment. Nothing about that would be a "threat" to anyone with an interest in the related standard -- which is the point of the "extend" part.

          Java is the popular example for embrace and extend. In that case, the Microsoft JVM was capable of running standard Java byteco
          • nice troll. You already proved you're an idiot with yoru previous comments, but this reply just confirms it. Obviously your narrow view of definitions is a mechanism for you to pump your own ego. It's always the idiots like you who are the loudest, and your just flapping hot air here. You can reply all you want, but trust me I'm not going to argue with a fool over what "embrace and extend" means to *you* ; Because I'm sure your 100% commited to that view point no matter how stupid it may be.
            • Um...it's not a "narrow view of definitions", it's the actual definition. I mean, I don't complain if someone says the Sun is hot that their definition of "Sun" is narrow and that it should include ice cubes.

              Look, you didn't know what embrace and extend meant. Now you do. Just consider it a learning experience. Don't attack the poster for being a troll just because he was right and you were wrong.

  • Piracy? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by almaon ( 252555 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @01:30AM (#8473012)
    Is it just me, or is the concept of the Xbox 2 not having a hard-drive seem possible as a direct influence of piracy?

    With modchips and the internal drive, being able to play disk images right off the harddisk seems like this could be an issue for Microsoft.

    Fastest way to find a needle in a haystack? Burn down the haystack...

    Taking out the harddrive would be just that, elimating the problem.

    Course it could be just a cost factor, who knows. All arm-chair analtics...

    • Re:Piracy? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 )
      "Is it just me, or is the concept of the Xbox 2 not having a hard-drive seem possible as a direct influence of piracy?"

      No, not really. I think it had more to do with taking a loss on each unit and nobody making that effective of use of the drive. Piracy might be a distant 3rd.
    • Fastest way to find a needle in a haystack? Burn down the haystack...

      Hey, that's a good idea. Way to think outside the box!
  • I really do hope that they include the hardrive... It is the only reason i would buy a game console, otherwise you have to pay hundreds of dollars in accessories, and it adds general value to the console. It would be a typical microsoft move to not incorperate it.
    • I really do hope that they include the hardrive... It is the only reason i would buy a game console, otherwise you have to pay hundreds of dollars in accessories, and it adds general value to the console. It would be a typical microsoft move to not incorperate it.

      Hundreds of dollars? Exactly how many memory cards do you buy? They're only $15 or $20 each i think, certainly not hundreds.

      Or is there some other accessory you think a built in hard drive replaces? An add-on hard drive certainly, but it's not

  • I think it's obvious. They gonna build in a hdd that's called "XBOX superhyperdrive". The only thing that will change is the interface, so that no linux-driver exists and many people will have to stick to their old xbox-linux-router (until some guys figure it out, again).
    • i forgot to mention that the only change is, that the connector has an additional absolutely useless pin, so that conventional connectors don't fit.
    • Unless M-Systems develops an entirely different memory technology, the Disk-On-Chip is well documented and is supported under Linux. You don't get a lot of storage space, but you could still put Linux on it.

  • No Influence, Here (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Undefined Parameter ( 726857 ) <fuel4freedom@ya[ ].com ['hoo' in gap]> on Friday March 05, 2004 @03:12AM (#8473325)
    Well, it looks like I'm in the minority who don't believe this guy.

    I don't think he knows what he's talking about; the way that he keeps mentioning that he's looking out for the company's long-term survivability in regards to the company's track record of red ink reminds me of Tom Smykowski's nervous, angry interview with the Bobs in Office Space. The fact that he said that the Xbox 2 was going to have a "CD," not even a "CD Drive," rather than a DVD drive of some sort tells me that he's not at all familiar with what the specs of the Xbox 2 will be.

    If I read the article correctly, M-Systems has had a total of one quarter of profit in fifteen years of existence, and this quarter will have them back in red ink. It sounds to me like the poor guy's in the process of jumping ship ("I personally own a lot of shares in the company, and I sell shares every quarter....") but doesn't want the public shareholders to beat him to it, so he's trying to sell everything M-Systems is doing as a Real Big Thing(TM), which will bring in "hundreds of millions to the company, spread over a few years...." In other words, I don't think M-Systems is anywhere near as important in the Xbox 2 development process as Mr. Moran would like to have us believe.

    Then again, if such is the case we're back to square one with conflicting rumors and no solid statement from Microsoft either way. I'm hoping Microsoft does decide to include backward-compatability. If they don't, I'll not even begin to consider purchasing one for a few years.

    ~UP
  • I'm increasingly displeased with Slashdot Games, which posts unconfirmed rumors that have to do with insignificant details of next-generation console hardware. I don't care how many buttons the next PlayStation will have on its controller, or whether XBox Next will have a hard disk, especially if I can't be told for certain. Rumors are not "news for nerds, stuff that matters." I may move to exclude Games from my homepage, or to quit Slashdot entirely, not that you care.
    • No, please, don't go! I'll give you candy!
    • It's not like Slashdot Games gets a ton of good stories. As in any news reporting medium, when you lack lots of good stories, you get some filler.

      So unless you're claiming that they're overlooking important stories by paying attention to unimportant ones, then I say who cares? Just read the title and realize you don't want to read that article.
      • They are overlooking important stories. Seen any stories recently on how DirectX 10 is being developed, and what implications that has for XBox/XBox Next? Seen any stories recently on Sony's Cell technology?
  • over the past week for a story on cheating online that's running Monday in the SJMN. Some tidbits: One fellow told me that MS folks were "extremely surprised" by the Linux hacks. Another fellow told me that the hard drive has been "critical" for pushing patches down the pipe.

  • Ummm...Everyone missing the obvious here? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by GameNutz ( 556033 ) on Friday March 05, 2004 @10:07AM (#8475073)
    Ok, the obvious answer here is:

    Microsoft wants out of the office and onto the TV. Steve Ballmer has always stated that there is a bigger play for the XBox outside of video games. Would not be suprised to see a windows component for the xbox that allows, over your home network, to stream media from your pc to the tv. The HD for the XBox will be your PC.

    This is a model that they have been pushing on for quite some time now and by tethering the 2 together, they reinforce their position in the home requiring XBox users to run Windows on their pc for the additional features the platform provides.

    You heard it here first.

    -GN
    • Nice as an option, but frankly running any kind of a feed from my xBox in the living to my PC in my office and back to my TV next to the Xbox would be somewhat problematic. (Okay, at the moment I am back in a dorm room with my laptop scraping up against my TV/XBox/TiVo, but you get my point...)

      • Nice as an option, but frankly running any kind of a feed from my xBox in the living to my PC in my office and back to my TV next to the Xbox would be somewhat problematic.

        If you use XBox Live then you probably already have your XBox hooked up to your home network or router. You don't need to run the feed back and forth as you claim, you just need a single run of CAT 5, or you could go wireless. I use my XBox (running Linux) to stream media from my Linux fileserver all the time.

  • The main reason why M$ fear the hard drive is the compatibility with PC. They don't want some techie to put something on a disk while it is in the PC, then transfer it over to the Xbox. Last thing M$ wants to hear is an unstable console.
  • It makes sense to do away with having your console being the place where your saves games are and tie it to an on line player profile. Mobile profiles are possible with memory cartrages but it involves hassle. Being able to continue your Halo campaign around your friends place by entering your login details is far nicer than having to take anything physical with you.

    The possiblilty of custom settings for all your games being instantly accessable to you as long as you have a net connection is a great idea,
  • Given the news we've all heard of the Apple based dev kits and now the lack of a hard drive, it seems pretty clear to me that Microsoft has decided to start over again on the XBox.

    This can be a good thing of course, because in some sense it means that they are serious about making a real games console this time. Not that the first attempt was so bad, but they have learned from their first foray into the console business.

    One thing they have learned is that they need to keep costs low and make things small

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