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Editorial Entertainment Games

Playing Games Seen as Brainless Hobby? 94

Posted by CowboyNeal from the coming-into-its-own dept.
Richard Goodness writes "Recently I watched Simon Bysshe's film Modern Day Gamer. The film is a natural springboard for some talk of the shared experience of videogames and the legitimization of gaming as a form of entertainment. Therefore, in '2 Legit 2 Save and Quit,' I come to some conclusions." A good article, with some excellent points. I took this to heart, but I see a weekly D&D session with friends as being akin to a weekly poker game but with less financial repercussions, unless one counts all the books needed.
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Playing Games Seen as Brainless Hobby? More

Playing Games Seen as Brainless Hobby?

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  • Even then, D&D books don't cost that much. I've seen decent used copies in book stores for less than $5 a peice, and I've also seen them in PDF form on the Internet.
    • Yeah I *know* someone with a full pdf collection. Aside from Kazaa, where do you go to find these things?
      • If you still use newsgroups, there is a newsgroup specifically dedicated to D&D and RPG PDFs. Don't know exactly what it is, but it is something like alt.binaries.ebooks.rpg or something like that. If you search on the entire list of a decently-capable newsgroup server, just look for rpg because I know its there.

  • Brainless? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by elasticwings ( 758452 ) on Thursday March 18, 2004 @11:25PM (#8606728)
    Brainless??? I play Ragnarok Online. You know how much thought has to go into being a merchant. It's like the stock market or something. You gotta price low enough to undercut competition yet sell high enough to make money.

    • Re:Brainless? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by lightspawn ( 155347 ) on Thursday March 18, 2004 @11:51PM (#8606865) Homepage
      I play Ragnarok Online. You know how much thought has to go into being a merchant. It's like the stock market or something.

      Excuse my presumption, but have you ever thought of playing the actual stock market?

      If age or income are an issue, you could still 'play' it - as a game that will teach you more than most other games, and that many people can relate to - and who knows, maybe some day your knowledge will prove useful.

      • Re:Brainless? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by CashCarSTAR ( 548853 )
        Actually, that type of experience would be more appropiate in a futures market.

        In any case, the stock market as it is won't be around in 10 years so it's a waste of time.
        • Stock markets have been around for over 500 years in pretty much the same form. All thats changed is the diversity of the stock thats traded, the accessibility of markets to those with small amounts of capital, and the efficiency of the trades.

          The assertion that the stock market will go away, or that it will change so much that gaining experience with it is a waste of time, is pretty bold, given that it goes against all historical precedent. Care to back up this claim with some kind of explaination?
          • Futures/Markets have been around for 500 so years. An investment/stock market is a relativly new invention.

            The reason why the stock market will die is because the money will eventually stop coming in. When you buy a stock, you're buying a piece of paper. Sure, you have partial "ownership", but insane PtD (Price to Divident. The media talks about PtE, but that's a meaningless statistic for investors) ratios make it a horrible investment.) ratios make it a bad investment.

            You're buying a stock hoping someone
            • Futures/Markets have been around for 500 so years. An investment/stock market is a relativly new invention.

              The first stock market, specializing in equity in joint-stock companies, was founded in Antwerp in the late 1400s. Not so new. The first major crash was the South Sea Bubble of 1711.

              Stock markets arose mainly to provide a means to raise capital for the growing number of import/export operations that were to expensive and/or risky for one person to finance.

              You're buying a stock hoping someone wil
      • Learn the math. :) And financial theory. You can't beat the market. According to one recent qualitative research (don't have a reference handy, sorry) on US data, investors can safely treat the market as 99+% random. And this is 100% supported by the theory. You can't beat the market index, unless you have access to insider information. Everyone who says the opposite is probably trying to sell you some bullshit books on technical analysis or convince you to invest in his fund. :)

  • A waste of time? No. But all good things... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Yolegoman ( 762615 ) on Thursday March 18, 2004 @11:29PM (#8606754) Homepage
    Should be used in moderation. Is eating chocolate bad? No. Is eating a pound of chocolate a day bad? Yes. What I'm trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with video games, or tv, for that matter, if used in moderation. But if you watch, or play, videogames/tv for 3 hours straight, I can't necessarily say that's good for you. I do think, though, that online games have more "interaction" then any other form of digitalized entertainment. And they are a great way to unwind at the end of the day.

  • Not as Brainless as TV (Score:5, Insightful)

    by leadfoot2004 ( 751188 ) on Thursday March 18, 2004 @11:49PM (#8606855)
    If we are talking about brainless hobby, watching TV is much more brainless than playing games. How many people have fallen asleep playing a computer game (we are not talking about extreme circumstances where gamers have stayed up 72 consecutive hours playing an RPG). I have countless times falling asleep casually in front of the TV -- I must have not used the brain very much to achieve that. Afterall, slightly more intellectual games (adventure games, puzzle games, and even flight simulators) requires sound judgment and quick thinking.
    • Usually I don't respond to an article in two sections, but I see your point. I watch TV and usually it's nothing but mindless garbage that never causes you to think ahead. It requires no skill, no thought process, nothing. You just sit and watch reality shows that never would happen...etc. I rarely watch television anymore, it's so boring.
    • Right. But most of the non-gamers I know see it more as "Oh he spends all his time shooting zombies on his computer". They don't understand that it IS strategy, and in some cases, even more strategic then Risk or Battleship board (Bored?) games.

      My mom and dad especially, see it as brainless, as do most of my friends parents. I find it a very enjoyable pursuit, however!
    • TV: Reality shows, that thing where neighbors screw each other's houses up, and the one where a group of gay men play dress-up with a straight guy.

      Gaming: Warcraft-type RPGs that require some deep levels of thought, FPSs that test reflexes, and..um...The Sims?

      OK, so maybe games aren't perfect, but they are better than the TV that most Americans are addicted to. Give me my mouse and keyboard any day.
    • I fall asleep playing CivIII all the time, dose and then wake up and continue, maybe it's because I have kids.
    • Yeah, I usually unwinde playing a nice shoot em up pc game where I don't have to think at the end of a work day, and don't get into any strategy games until the weekend.

      But on those really tiring days where you are super burnt out, I flip on the tv or watch a movie. That's for when I REALLY don't want to be thinking :)

  • Stop worrying about the Baby Boomers and GenX! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ObligatoryUserName ( 126027 ) on Thursday March 18, 2004 @11:56PM (#8606899) Journal
    The fact that people who 1)grew up before video games went mainstream 2)are socially closed to games and 3)have never played games - don't like games shouldn't matter to people as much as this article proves it does.

    Look at your culture, man! The fact that we're embracing interactive entertainment instead of passive narrative is something to be proud of. The people who tell you your feelings are not valid, the people who tell you that you are wasting your time, the people who don't view video games as a form of artistic expression DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Literally, honestly, they wouldn't know Grand Theft Auto from Super Mario Brothers. Stop worrying about it, and talk to your peers, not the establishment.

    • The only problem with that is that I do talk to my peers. My nongamer friends think that not only do videogames not have any serious messages to say--but they think that it's not possible for them to. Yeah, the current establishment thinks that games are a toy...but I'm afraid that sometimes it seems that the establishment-to-be feels the same way.
    • The fact that we're embracing interactive entertainment instead of passive narrative is something to be proud of.

      This is a really interesting point, but the fact remains that all scripted games (including all computer games, by necessity of design) are only as interactive as their creators want them to be. While you may think you have a personal, one-on-one relationship with Nameless One, you're consuming the story of Planescape: Torment to only a slightly lesser degree than you consumed the story of Ind
    • Stop worrying about it, and talk to your peers, not the establishment.

      Our "peers" are not neccessarily on our side either. The Baby Boomers and Gen-X'ers have taught their children, and their children are our peers. Even most of those that DO play games don't see anything beyond the barrel of their rocket launcher, and they feed back into the existing stereotypes of gam(ing/ers).
    • Actually, us Gen-X's grew up with video games, so I wouldn't say our attitude towards games stems from a lack of familiarity. Instead, perhaps it stems from the fact that many of us grew out the hobby as we grew older. Since we only played the games as kids, we see it as a kid's activity. In addition, even as kids, video games were never considered a "cool" activity the way sports were. So now that we are older, that stigma remains.

      TV is considered something everyone just does, so there's little social
    • Since when did GenX become the establishment???

      I'm a GenX-er, comfortably in my mid-30's, and i've bene playing computer games since the early 80's when my Apple II+ was da bomb. I don't care to watch TV, so playing games on my PC is my preferred way of unwinding after work, or entertaining myself while the wife is watching the tube or doing something else I'm not interested in.

      Calling video games artistic expression might be a bit much, though. The main type of expression I see when walking through a L

  • Silly (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Mark_MF-WN ( 678030 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @12:10AM (#8606958)
    Every form of entertainment gets critized by "respectable" people. It's NEVER stopped the open-minded from lining up around the block to enjoy it.

    People who disparage video games are simply painting an unflattering picture of themselves in the books in tomorrow.

    • It's also never stopped the aforementioned "respectable" from lining up around the block. I remember an editorial in my local news paper discussing a series of polls conducted among its readers on wether they felt pornography should be illegal, and another six months later on wether they used pornographic materials (keeping in mind they do log the phone numbers of the people who phone in to take part in these polls).

      A fairly high portion (like 80%) of the respondents to the second poll had taken part in th

  • Warning! Link should be removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by cgenman ( 325138 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @01:02AM (#8607210) Homepage
    Warning! The link to the 2 legit article above attempts to install something from IE Plugin LTD [ieplugin.com], a spyware program which, amongst other things, tracks your surfing habits, pops up advertisements, and opens a backdoor for future program updates. Their terms can be found here. [ieplugin.com]

    If this is not just a fluke page served up by allrpg's advertising company, please remove the above article. Such behavior is not acceptable in a public forum. Companies should not abuse Slashdot as a way of sliming spyware onto people's computers.

    Now I need to give this computer a bath.

    • Re:Warning! Link should be removed (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      AllRPG.com doesn't control their advertising, they don't have the income to afford their own server. Their network, Gamesquad Network, is in control of it, and since the hosting is free (with the exception that they're required to surrender their advertising rights) they can't help it. If you're gonna blame anyone for spyware downloads, go to GameSquad Network, but don't blame AllRPG for taking the server hosting they can get.
    • I agree with your point, but might I suggest Mozilla? [mozilla.org] Yeah, I know it's hard to get started with something new, like this, but it's definately worth it. Hell, despite my geeky interests, I'm somewhat of a technophobe, for both hardware and software, myself. But my switch from IE to Moz was the most drastic improvement in any tech change I've ever made. I look back on such auto-install dialogs, on pop-ups and javascript errors and the rest of that crap with almost a fond nostalgia towards a memory I'm ba

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @01:22AM (#8607297)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Mark_MF-WN ( 678030 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @02:29AM (#8607529)
      It's ironic that women are the first ones to criticize video games. Conventional forms of entertainment (film, TV, literature, music, etc) don't allow any kind of social interaction -- something women are unusually fond of. Video games, on the other hand, do. Most games support multiplayer, in-game chat, emoticons, etc. Why aren't girls all over this? I'm surprised they aren't the primary consumers of video games.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Well, they have to be able to talk to their Friends about last nights episode of "Friends" or other random soap operas / drama series, speculate over what's going to happen etc.

        I do realise this is a rather broad generalisation, but I firmly believe that every single woman on the face of the earth does this.

      • As a female gamer, I admit I think this is a bit of a broad generalization. ;)

        That said, you'll notice that games like Everquest, Ultima Online, and Star Wars Galaxies /are/ popular with female players.

        The theory I've heard bandied about, and one which seems to ring true for me, is that in general female players want a game where they can form communities and relationships, and tell a story.

        For instance, I play Star Wars Galaxies a couple times a week, and in the city I'm a resident of one other woman an
    • You could find a game which mixes a social environment with whatever you're interested in. There are probably a few out there. There are even a few "environments" which are open-ended enough that pretty much anything is possible, so both of you could be logged in to the same "world" and enjoying whatever interests you.
    • I'm inclinded to think that it's women who are the most vocal about games being "anti-social"... at least, that's how it's been in my life.

      This is a conversation I have actually had (paraphrased).

      Me: Let's have sex.

      Him: Can't. Diablo 2. *click click click*

      Me: ...I'm going home.

      Him: Okay, 'bye. *click click click*

      How much more anti-social can you get? ;)

      Seriously, though, video games are anti-social. So are television, books, meditation, jogging, and about eight zillion other things. There's not
      • "Or when my boyfriend (no longer the same guy as above...of course) makes us late because he hasn't found a friggin' save point yet."

        Now you see how men feel when women make them late because of [hair,makeup,that time of the month, the moon, the color of you nails, etc] :->
      • That's a maturity thing. While there are a few things I might miss if I had made a lot of progress in a game and wasn't near a save point, if it's anything important, like going out to eat, or to a movie, or to bed (with my SO), I'll just sigh and click the off button.

        In fact, there are times when I'm playing one of those single player epics with save points where I tell myself directly, "This is a reconnaisance mission, you won't be able to save your progress, just try to find out as much about the area

  • Give them the Civ III handbook (Score:5, Funny)

    by Nice2Cats ( 557310 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @01:42AM (#8607376)
    Anybody who things that computer games are brainless hasn't watched the face on somebody who has never played Civilization or Call to Power before and is having the rules explained to them. Yeah, its just a simple little game, sort of like Scrabble...

  • Different levels of thought (Score:4, Interesting)

    by miyako ( 632510 ) <miyako AT gmail DOT com> on Friday March 19, 2004 @01:45AM (#8607387) Homepage Journal
    I think that anyone who would say "video games are mindless entertainment" obviously does not understand enough about games to make such a judgment. That said, games run the whole spectrum from purely mindless entertainment to extremely though provoking.
    Lets start out with an example, two games that I play alot are Kolf and KBounce, both are relativily simple and quite mindless games. These are games that I play during commercials on TV if i'm watching a show, during a lul in the conversation when i'm on the phone, while i'm waiting for a huge file to compile, or any other time when I just want some small distraction while I wait on something. These games are really mindless.
    Lets look at another game that I play quite a bit. Soul Caliber II. This is a game that combines quick reflexes with strategy to defeat an opponent. It's not chess but it will keep you thinking, especially when you are playing against a human opponent, who's tactics are not quite as predictable as the computers.
    Now for a third game, Neverwinter Nights. Since it's hard for my friends and I to get together and play D&D like we used too, usually a couple nights a week we will fire up Neverwinter Nights and play a DMed quest. This game definitly involves heavy thinking. Not only are there puzzles to be solved and tactics to be developed, but you must also manage inventory, remember to play in character, keep track of your health, spells/special abilities, the status of your party. If you are the DM for that particular game things get even more complicated as you have to have interesting and realistic in character text for NPCs, keep the flow of the story going etc.
    Now, lets look at what non-gamers see when the look at each of these games:
    Kolf and KBounce - a bunch of clicking
    Soul Caliber II - pressing buttons and beating eachother up.
    Neverwinter Nights - clicking on monsters and IMing your friends (remeber to someone who has never played D&D there is no challenge to playing in character, in fact few of them probably even realise there is such a thing as in character)
    The thing is, most people have played solitaire (pretty brainless), or have played those brainless games on Pogo or the click the box game [stupid.com] or whatever. Those are brainless games for (mostly) brainless people. When these people look at other games being played, they do not realize the though requied and associate the difficult level as being the same as the games they play. One has to realize that it is difficult to "see" thinking.
  • I have been playing games since elementary school but became quite hardcore by high school. And honestly I do think that through playing games, I lost many chances to become better and grow personally. In a sense, I'd say that I became dumber by playing games.

    I don't know about you, but for me playing games is a relatively brainless activity in the sense that the same decisions are made over and over again; and I've excelled, from Counter-strike to poker to Civilization to Simcity to Star Wars Galaxies (ma

    • And yet... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Mark_MF-WN ( 678030 ) on Friday March 19, 2004 @02:22AM (#8607505)
      And yet I doubt you would see anything wrong with watching uneducational fiction like Casablanca, or reading novels for entertainment. And what about symphonies and operas? They teach nothing, they don't better you. They're pure entertainment. That's time you could have spent learning things! Or bettering yourself!

      People who criticize video games are hypocrites -- every single one of them. They would never DARE to level a complaint against any of the other trite, meaningless forms of entertainment.

      • Anyone who doesn't think Casablanca, Der Ring des Niebelungen or the Glorious Ninth has no value as anything other than entertainment is quite delusional.

        It's not all about facts, you know.

        L

        • That's the point (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Mark_MF-WN ( 678030 )
          That's the whole point. Just because video games are entertainment, doesn't mean that they're devoid of valuable cultural expression. There are video games that speak to their players just as profoundly as Casablanca, Beethoven's Ninth, or Catcher in the Rye.
      • People who criticize video games are hypocrites -- every single one of them. They would never DARE to level a complaint against any of the other trite, meaningless forms of entertainment.

        Au contraire. I wouldn't have fared much better watching Cartoon Network 24/7.

        Additionally, I think entertainment is good because I learn better when I am having fun learning. I know that by listening to the "uneducational fiction" work To Kill a Mockingbird on audio book that superficially, I don't learn much. But there
    • Consider the "peers" of video gaming as a pastime:
      - Television. You're joking, right? Sit and watch something else happen. No brain activity involved, except maybe if it's a REALLY in-depth show on some big political issue.
      - Movies. See television, although it's a bit less mindless on the whole. And you pay more per hour for it than you would for a console/PC game.
      - Books. Books run the gamut from as mindless as TV to actually expanding your world view. And it involves actually doing something mental
      • The fact that this discussion even takes place, without even having to point to the progrssion made since Pong, implies that games ARE moving toward real intellectual value.

      • Re:Honestly (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Ziffy ( 443563 )
        We've come a long way since the inanity of Pong (face it, it didn't expand your mind at all)

        I daresay that, among those whose first introduction to games was Pong, there were many who could not previously grasp the concept of being able to control the actions of something on a TV screen by pressing buttons. So I'd have to disagree with your assertation - maybe Pong didn't have riveting social commentary, but it did expand people's minds.

      • Wrong (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Mark_MF-WN ( 678030 )
        You've obviously never played "Deus Ex" or "Planescape: Torment". I've read very few books that can come close to what I felt playing those games. And I've read well -- I try to read most of the books that my English-lit major GF reads for her courses and for her own interest.

        Video game, ultimately, are superior to all known forms of entertainment, because of the vastly greater subjectivity that video games permit. A novel is a simple, static thing, with predigested emotions and experiences. A video g

        • "Deus Ex" or "Planescape: Torment"

          Right with you here. Two all-time favourite games.

          "A novel is a simple, static thing, with predigested emotions and experiences."

          You're not reading the right novels. Sure, the vast bulk of fictional printed matter is droll shite, but c'mon. Could you have generalised any more widely?

          Books which have involved me recently: Hemingway's "For Whom The Bell Tolls"; Joe Conrad's "Karain". If I could make Karain into a film, I would.

          L
    • Yes, you can lose out in practical terms when you let gaming(as with any hobby) overwhelm the rest of your life.

      But then, I also think that it's a necessary thing for one to lose themselves in their dreams for at least a year or two of their life, especially when you're younger and have little power to do great things yourself. Games offer one way to do that. I gamed hardcore, I guess, for maybe four years in middle and high school.

      It's only unhealthy, I think, if it's done for the wrong reasons. I gamed
      • Compare this to my roommate, now that I'm here in college. Games are a buffer, a drug, for him. They are, like reading forums, watching movies, and TV, a way to pass time. One of the most telling particular cases of this was when one of the guys down the hall knocked and asked if we wanted to go to dinner with the floor(as we often do). He said no, he just came back from class and had to "unwind." He did come back, but he "unwound" by playing about three hours' worth of Halo multiplayer, followed by dinner
    • There's nothing wrong with doing any activity for however long you want. It's only when you start hating yourself for what you are doing that you need to stop. You've hit an age now where you want something more out of your life then coming home and fragging some guys you hardly know that live across the globe.

      When you finish the day, and you look back and think, god damn, I wasted my whole day playing those stupid games, then something needs to change. Either you stop feeling like you are dumber for playi
  • The criticism of games as mindless time-wasters, that is. Sure, there will always be those games, but for several decades now games, computer and otherwise, have differed from other forms of cultural expression only in their format and to a lesser degree in that they tend to reflect a much more heterogeneous pool of authorship.

    The fact is that in its first decades (turn of the C19th until about 1920), moving pictures were broadly considered to be the inferior cousins of theatre performances or opera. Just
  • Have you ever watched someone playing Everquest after 8 hours straight? I can tell you, this guy *really* looks dumb, and *is* getting dumber as he clicks and clicks and clicks like a mindless zombie to get his XPs. In my case, it was UO, and I think that intensively playing it for 2 years didn't make me any good (but it still is better than EQ :) ). However, I would not say that games like civ3 gets you dumber. On the other side, I remember having looked at myself in the mirror once, after having played ci

  • Playing Games (Score:1, Redundant)

    by PepperedApple ( 645980 )
    I'm still downloading the Modern Day Gamer video, so I can't comment on that yet, but here's a basic summary of the article:

    Video Games are not seen as a legitimate hobby, while other activities that may or may not be as brainless or antisocial (watching tv, reading books) do get respected as legitimate hobbies.

    The author makes the point that video games actually do foster a community, both in the sense that MMORPGS are played with other real people with whom you can communicate, and because even sing
  • Seeing as how me and my buddies use StarCraft sayings while playing cards, drinking, or at the gym, I personally have to agree that video games are social. I even helped my friend improve his bowling by telling him to be like the battlecruiser, "Take it slow." :)
  • If a gamer plays a game brainlessly, that's his/her fault, not the game's. Games are goal-oriented, and consciously trying to achieve a goal (especially when the goal is motivated by competition) is anything but brainless. If anything a game is exactly the opposite. Please, as an example, show me a game that doesn't require the player to engage in some sort of decision making. Next, try and show me a game where brainful playing loses to brainless playing. Any activity is brainless if you do it brainles
  • Chess is considered a mind-building game, so if Chess is converted to the Video Game medium, is it then, by default, a brainless activity? This obviously proves that brainless activity rests within the activity (and therefore the activator). TV is the same way, I could watch a brainless reality show (although these do sometimes provide insight into human behaviors) or an informative documentary about science or a scientist. Video Games ARE artistic expression, well most of them anyway. The expressive part

  • I agree with much of what has been said so far; I love games and I think the best ones are far better and more involving than most mindless, pop entertainment.

    But I too have had the experience of looking at myself in the mirror at six in the morning, during finals week, after an entire night of [insert your favorite drug here] Tekken 3, and saying, what is all this for? When I can't think of an answer, I need to quit cold turkey for a while.

    I also question whether all games should be included in the artic

  • I fully agree with the article. As a Graduate Student in Math, I have to say that gaming is one of the most intellectual things I do.

    Recording stats [rpgdl.com] and Calculating damage [fftactics.net] are really only the beginning. The real strategy comes in the positioning and equipment/move choices.

    I will now try to reconstruct one of the most interesting battles I had a couple years ago in Paper Mario (That's right Paper Mario; I was restricting a few things so it was actually kind of hard, and due to low randomness levels stra

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