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The Courts Government Entertainment Games News

Mod Chips Up, Game Industry Revenues Down? 611

Posted by simoniker from the plus-five-insightful? dept.
securitas writes "In his latest Game On column, the Boston Globe's Hiawatha Bray describes Xbox and PS2 game console hackers as software pirates who use mod chips and damage game industry revenue. The focus of the column seems to be on the use of mod chips as a way to circumvent game copy controls and glosses over legitimate uses, although he mentions some of them. Without offering any research or concrete numbers, Bray facetiously writes, 'But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.' Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?"
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Mod Chips Up, Game Industry Revenues Down? More

Mod Chips Up, Game Industry Revenues Down?

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  • Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Space cowboy ( 13680 ) * on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:37AM (#8725990) Journal
    I think Bray has a good point. I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it. My PS2 is modded, and I used it for coding on before the PS2 linux kit and SPS2 came along (haven't used the mod-chip since), but I'm definitely the exception rather than the rule (well, if my circle of friends are anything to go by, anyway).

    The flipside however is that it should be the act of piracy that is illegal, not the act of modifying your own (paid-for !) hardware. When a law is enacted, it should make provision for exceptions, and as far as I know the various copyright/IP/whatever laws don't do this for mod-chips. If the exceptions aren't there, it is percieved as a 'bad' law, and people are less likely to respect a 'bad' law...

    As for the manufacturers staying ahead: whatever one man can do, another can undo. Until the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within, people will find a way around the restrictions. The more the challenge, the more will try.

    Simon

    • Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch (Score:5, Funny)

      by Trigun ( 685027 ) <evil&evilempire,ath,cx> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:38AM (#8726005)
      ntil the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within

      Don't give them any ideas.
    • Well, there's always software mods. I know a guy with an XBox who uses it for nekkid skins for DoA2. Can't do that without a mod chip. But he also uses it for l33t w4r3z and shite.

      Why can't we just get the Indrema project restarted and give all the console hackers a real platform?

    • Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch (Score:5, Insightful)

      by glenkim ( 412499 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:49AM (#8726140) Homepage
      I think one very legitimate use being forgotten here is import games. If I get a PS2, I will most likely get a modchip and buy the Naruto fighting game from Japan, because it's pretty likely that the game will never be released in the States. So maybe backup purposes is a little hard to defend, but imports are a little stronger.
      • Although I personally have nothing against imports I have a feeling that the legality of them might be able to be called into question. I have a feeling that the DMCA could very well be used against you if you were found to be breaking export controls.

      • Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Total_Wimp ( 564548 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @12:50PM (#8726867)
        - How many people are going to use their mod chips for imports?
        - How many people are going to use their mod chips for backups?
        - How many people are going to use their mod chips to run Linux?
        - What kind of moron would believe an object that's twice as heavy will fall at the same speed as an object half as heavy?
        - Doesn't everyone know that the internet is only used for porn?
        - How many people will actually use a Linux distribution instead of just "playing around" with the free disk?

        As long as people ask these rhetorical questions without providing any answers then they'll be able to twist your perception however they'd like. If we required some accurate answers to go with those questions then at least we'd be able to make some informed judgements. How about if the console makers answer these qestions:

        -What percentage of games in use are pirated copies?
        -What percentage of pirated copies are casual use (friend-to-friend) vs. organized theft (download from internet, guy on street corner, etc.)
        -What percentage of game sales are re-buys for a game that was scratched, broken, etc?
        -What percentage of people have unusable games (because of scratches, etc) that they don't replace because of the high price?
        -Do the console makers offer a free/nominal cost replacement service for damaged discs?
        -How does the rebuy/broken-but-not-replaced number compare with the "piracy" number?

        Do you think the answers to those questions would give peoples some perspective that would not be in the console-makers favor? I can't answer that question until they answer theirs.

        TW

    • Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch (Score:4, Interesting)

      by IWorkForMorons ( 679120 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:57AM (#8726240) Journal
      I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

      I'll agree, but even for those who pirate there are various reasons why. I'm not saying they are good reasons, but still. A friend of mine has a son. She doesn't have a lot of money, but she gives her kids everything she can. That included the PSX and a bunch of games and such for Christmas. The only problem was that after Christmas, there's not much money left for games. So the following Christmas, I decided to do them both a favour. About 2 weeks before Christmas, I took his PSX and installed a mod chip. For Christmas, I gave him three copied games, and told him that I could get him more. This kid was so excited he was in tears. It meant that he got to play all the games he wanted. And it meant even more to his mother, who was thankful she didn't have to worry about spending $60 on one game. Instead she could use the money to buy food and clothes for the kids. And it made me feel good, because I helped out a family that didn't get a lot of nice things.

      Now I will say that yes, I do know that it's illegal. I don't kid myself by thinking "well, it's for a good cause, so it's OK". And that it probably wasn't the best morality lesson to teach the kid. But you know what...sometimes the moral thing to do isn't the best thing to do. So what....one kid who wasn't born to rich parents gets to enjoy his childhood a little more. I don't feel guilty about giving him that pleasure. Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

      • You are a good dood. =)

        I think the main reason I would mod my x-box would be for a nekkid patch tho...
      • Not going to judge that one way or the other, but one alternative is to buy the older games in the bargain bin for $20. Some of them are only a year or two old, and is Madden 2004 really any better than Madden 2002?

      • What a dilemma... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by gfxguy ( 98788 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @01:55PM (#8727541)
        Now I will say that yes, I do know that it's illegal. I don't kid myself by thinking "well, it's for a good cause, so it's OK". And that it probably wasn't the best morality lesson to teach the kid. But you know what...sometimes the moral thing to do isn't the best thing to do. So what....one kid who wasn't born to rich parents gets to enjoy his childhood a little more. I don't feel guilty about giving him that pleasure. Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

        I'm don't want to slam you or anything for doing this, after all, I don't really know what I'd do myself (although I've never had/used/installed a mod chip).

        First of all, as sad as this is going to sound, if someone couldn't afford a playstation they probably shouldn't have bought one. For someone that a playstation is a big purchase, they ought to have done their homework and figured out that the console is just the start - there's the memory and extra controller, and that doesn't even include a game.

        Now ask yourself, is that kid going to be better off in 10 or 20 years because he had a playstation? I doubt it.

        And indeed, the lesson you taught him was that if you can't afford it it's OK to steal it. Now, we're not talking about a loaf of bread to feed a starving family, we're talking about something entirely luxerious. TVs, video games, cellphones... these are all luxeries, not essentials.

        So you've made the kid and his mom happy, which is fine, but I personally don't find your contribution to society positive. If you wanted to be magnanimous, you should have just bought him a couple of legal games. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of bargain priced and used games out there.

        Really, when faced with a situation like this, ask what is going to be the best for the boy in the long run. Receiving stolen goods probably isn't the answer to that question.
    • Until the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within

      News Flash: Console player Infinium Labs [infiniumlabs.com] unveils its plans for enforcing Trusted Computing

    • Thats what I was going to say

      Quite often there are a lot of legitimate uses for technologies that are often regarded as being used for nefarious purposes.

      But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

      This is a much bigger problem for the console gaming industry as the majority of their money is made on software (Xbox is a good example), as they sell the hardware at a loss to encourage sales and undercut the competition.

    • Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch (Score:5, Insightful)

      by DotDavid ( 554558 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @12:14PM (#8726424) Homepage
      I modded our XBOX (chip and larger hard drive) so we can store/run our games from the internal hard drive. It's just too big a risk ($50) letting my kids handle all those shiny disks.

      And the added benifit of playing all our music, and displaying select photo albums... no brainer. The XBOX should have been shipped this way.

      Is there room for one more in the trunk?
    • . I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

      That's INSANE!! Why pay $$ to rent a movie when you can just download it? [suprnova.org]
      Of course, I often have to download my "backups" because my original is unplayable. Um, yeah, that's it.
    • There's another mod chip use that I think people are overlooking, and I feel it is legit, even though some may disagree. That use is getting around region encoding. Like DVDs, modern game consoles, no longer encumbered by mechanical issues like TV standard differences use a system of region codes. This is done so that they can enforce different release dates in places like Europe (It took Final Fantasy X seven months to go from the US to Europe, and they didn't even optimize it for PAL or change any of the

  • Missed Opportunity (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Matey-O ( 518004 ) * <michaeljohnmiller@mSPAMsSPAMnSPAM.com> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:37AM (#8725993) Homepage Journal
    For the longest time I wanted a display device in the livingroom. Something that would play DVD/video/mp3s/internet streaming content. The Xbox seemd like the IDEAL solution based on the horsepower, ethernet and digital multichannel audio out. I'd heard rumors that it was CAPABILE of sending a progressive scan DVD video signal with just a software upgrade and it sounded even better.

    Then a whole lotta nothing happened. I'd have been willing to spend another $50-$75 to microsoft/whoever for the capability. The modchip seems like the quickest way to get an unencumbered display device next to your TV in the family room, but at the expense of a lot of futzing around with the hardware.

    Unfortunately, they missed their target opportunity as 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox to do this, and the only announcement I've seen from Microsoft is a software package that'll ONLY talk to a media center version of Windows XP. (here, you can do this, but first you have to buy this $2000 computer)

    Meanwhile, I realized that internet radio sucks, and my iPod with iTunes fm modulator plus the dish network PVR provides everything I truely needed above and beyond the Xbox's DVD player.

    • Re:Missed Opportunity (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jefe7777 ( 411081 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @12:02PM (#8726305) Journal
      >> 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox

      exactly. and that's why every single one of these articles is bunk. I'm getting tired of companies/industries continuous stream of "we know why we aren't filthy rich!!!! It's the pirates!"

      It couldn't be that 1st world cultures are so inundated with such a variety of things to do, from theaters, dvd, cd, games via console, games via pc, games via handhelds, cell phones, satellite tv, cable tv, broadband/web surfing, monster truck events, rock concerts, bowling, sports, excercise, learning to play a musical instrument, studying, working, spending time with the family...yada yada yada.

      the shit is endless.

      just like most people thing Microsoft has a great reputation, most people don't warez, most people don't hack their anything.

      the miniscule minority that do...well they were not going to spend the money in the first place.

      this constant barrage of "it's your fault(general consumer) we're not making crap loads of money", is just creating ill will.

      there's gonna be fewer and fewer homeruns in the entertainment industry....just a fact of our current culture.

      • Re:Missed Opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)

        by cgenman ( 325138 )
        I'd like to point out here that it isn't the gaming industry saying this. It is the tech reporter for the Boston Globe. Most of the game developers that I know realize that only a very small percentage of consoles that are chipped, and even then those that are probably wouldn't have bought your game anyway. I've seen rough estimates that piracy in computer games hovers around %10, and that sounds about right. When you're trying to pull your title from 30,000 sales to 1,000,000 sales, that %10 just doesn
    • Damn straight, this was the only reason I was looking into modchips for my xbox.. enable 480p or better for DVD playback. Word is they disabled it in software just prior to release due to macrovision problems (ie, higher display modes didn't have it).

      Which quite frankly, pisses me off. I have a quite-capable media center sitting in my house, and I can't bloody use it unless I'm content with 480i (guess what, I'm not). Were I to try and remedy this, I'd have to add $100 to the price I paid for the xbox, and

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:37AM (#8725994)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • It's not copyright violation for you to download the mp3's to cd's you own. It is a violation by the person distributing the files though.

      I've used warez sites to get old floppies I own that have died (Borland C++ 3.0 DOS is a recent example).
    • And if the software company goes out of business, you're pretty much screwed if something happens to the CD. There's no way to get a replacement.

    • But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

      Nice. Say making backups is fine, but suggest you'd like to see those that do it tossed into the trunk of a Cadillac, with the implied dumping them in the river with cement overshoes, or burial in the forest, or other methods of "disappearance" that brings to mind. Shows how he feels about the legitimate uses.

      Even unvoiced, talking abou

    • Don't forget region protection (Score:5, Insightful)

      by danaris ( 525051 ) <danaris@m a c .com> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:54AM (#8726193) Homepage

      The other important legitimate reason to have a modchip is to play games from a different region. I have Final Fantasy X, but I hate the people doing the voices (except for a couple of them). I've found a few clips online of the Japanese version, and I love the voices there. I want to buy--legally, from Square--the Japanese version, so I can play it through with the original voices. But I can't play it on my US PS2 without a modchip. Thus, I intend to get a modchip.

      I don't have any backups (though, once I have a modchip, I might make some, for exactly the reasons you state), and never plan to get PS2 games illegally. I just want to play games from Japan. If there were a modchip that allowed me to play legal imports, but not backup games, I'd get it.

      There is, so far as I can tell, no possible legal argument against this, unless they take the DMCA and twist it even farther than the printer manufacturers have. Having bought the original media, why can I not access it? Heck, I'll even wait until the game comes out in the US (if there are plans to) before buying it, so they don't even have that stupid argument!

      I want to give them my money, but Sony won't let me.

      Dan Aris

    • Re:little kids? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by NightSpots ( 682462 )
      You really think there are more parents buying mod chips than teenagers and college students who just don't want to pay for games in the first place?

      Really?

      My guess is that the number of people who have bought mod chips solely to protect their games from little kids is ... well .... less than a dozen. Maybe two dozen, but not more than that.

    • Re:little kids? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by macrom ( 537566 ) <macrom75@hotmail.com> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:56AM (#8726226) Homepage
      My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies.

      As a parent, I highly, highly doubt this. Parents with multiple children don't have time for 5 minutes of sex at night let alone sitting in front of a computer trying to make backup copies of some Spongebob Squarepants game. Most of us (our circle of friends with kids) require the younger children (9 or so and under) to ask for assistance before playing a console. The kids of all ages are simply taught how to use the console and the discs, and that not taking care of the discs will result in a game becoming unplayable. Most of us are from the school of thought that children should learn from an early age that they are responsible for their actions, and that expensive items should be treated with care and respect.

      Kids have a high propensity to break ANYTHING, so making a backup copy of a $50 game is fine and dandy, but you can't make a backup copy of the $200+ console and the $50 mod chip that you bought to make backup copies so your kids didn't break the game.

      Sorry for venturing off into some offtopic territory, but I just don't see that many parents modding a console and spending time doing backups of every game. There are far too many things fighting for parental time, and at the end of the day sex takes preference over burning game discs.
    • But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.


      My hunch also says that there are more parents with little kids that have gaming consoles then "will fit in the trunk of a Cadillac".


      It depends on what Cadillac. You can fit 1/2 the population of Cleveland in a 1978 Fleetwood.
    • This is exactly what I do. I've Kids ranging in age from 10 down to 2. Little hands have damaged many a CD/DVD. While "rules" saying "no touching" work somewhate -- media still gets destroyed.

      Every CD/DVD accessable to my kids is a COPY of the original media. This includes PC-CDROMs -- although most of those are imaged and stored on the LAN rather than burned on to a CD.

      The only thing I've used blockbuster for is to "try" a game to decide if it's something I'm willing to let my kids play -- or check a
    • My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies.

      Your hunch is 100% correct. I know this is a fact because I am one of these people. I have a young daughter, and she is ONLY allowed to use the CD backups of our Playstation games. She tries to be careful (I think), but sure enough they get damaged or lost. Fortunately, it is pretty easy to burn a fresh copy from the master CD.

      For those people who th

  • Sure... (Score:3, Funny)

    by jratcliffe ( 208809 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:39AM (#8726008)
    Yeah, sure, most modchippers are doing it for perfectly legitimate purposes, just like most Kazaa users are sharing music files from bands that have authorized it.

    • yup, yup, yup. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Saeed al-Sahaf ( 665390 )
      Ohhhhh! Ooooooo! You'll get modded down! How dare you point out an obvious truth that goes against the Slashdot Party Line!

      I would bet that more than 75% of the P2P users out there have LOADS of stuff that is not "fair use". But people here tend to try to "justify" it, ignoring the fact that they are only fooling themselves.

    • Re:Sure...(Let's outlaw everything.) (Score:4, Insightful)

      by gosand ( 234100 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:59AM (#8726263)
      Yeah, sure, most modchippers are doing it for perfectly legitimate purposes, just like most Kazaa users are sharing music files from bands that have authorized it.

      Most drivers go over the speed limit in their cars. Yet cars are still legal. Cars are used in homocides every day, yet cars are still legal. Guns are used to commit crimes, yet guns are still legal in the US. Alcohol is consumed by underage people, yet it is still legal in this country.

      If you want to outlaw something because it has illegal uses, let's be fair across the board.

      Having said that, I think that the *main* users of mod chips use them to pirate games. There are certainly legal uses of them however. There are legal (and quite useful) uses for P2P, even though the majority *right now* is for illegal activity. I think the key is to develop those legal uses, to have something to back up the technology.

    • ...and all those DVD-XCopy users are making legitimate backups of only DVDs they own. Because, you know, scratched DVDs are such a rampant problem that spending the money on the burner, the blank media and the copying software is simply protecting one's investment.

  • Mod Chips Up? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:39AM (#8726011)
    Who is this "Chips" and what has he done to deserve to be modded up?

  • The usual... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by detritus` ( 32392 ) * <awitzke@wesaGIRA ... minus herbivore> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:39AM (#8726021) Homepage Journal
    Notice how they dont once mention that game industry revenues are up yet again, but like P2P mod chips are evil in their eyes... Personally i have a modded Xbox, and i just love the ability to have all my games on the HD as i use it in my car and i can throw the box somewhere nice and hidden and just hook it up to a 802.11g gateway when i need to update something. But apparently my doing this costs the game companies whose games i own money, prolly because i dont have to buy new copies to replace those that are all scratched up

  • Slogan. (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:40AM (#8726022)

    "Software Piracy - 30 years of killing the gaming industry!"

  • I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games (Score:5, Interesting)

    by iansmith ( 444117 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:40AM (#8726029) Homepage
    The DVD player in the PS2 is really, really cheap and it does not take much to damage a PS2 DVD to the point where it does not play.

    I have several such disks that I can only play because I have a MOD chip and I have copied the scratched DVD's to new disks that the PS2 can read.

    Plus there are some neat free utilities for working with save games on the memory card, multimedia players and othersoftware that is difficult to run on an un-modded PS2.
  • Wait, how much money do they bring in a year???? Isn't it more than the motion picture industry.

    What is the percent increase in industry revenues... isn't it something huge.

    And they are crying already. I know just a handful of people with hacked systems. Maybe 1/50 people and I am a tech guy. Are they taking their cue from teh RIAA now.
  • Well well, looks like the gaming industry is hurting from people copying media and sharing it. We should be seeing laws some day soon, since whenever the rich start to loose their money they start bribing politicians. Let's just hope they realize sooner than the RIAA did that you'll never get rid of people sharing stuff. Sharing is the first step towards peace! Alright...so it is an excuse, so what!
  • Is not are they pirates, but are they "customers?"

    The truth is that the vast majority probably do use them to pirate games. But, that is not necessarily lost revenue or signficantly revenue, as they are probably not customers either...

    But that probably shouldn't mean that it should be "easy", because then customers DO become pirates.

  • Less concerned with piracy (Score:4, Funny)

    by karb ( 66692 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:41AM (#8726040)
    But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

    More concerned a boston globe reporter is plotting to kidnap me.

  • Damage industry revenue? I'm sorry, did I miss the press release where Microsoft started selling XBOX Media player [xboxmediaplayer.de] in a retail package?

    Screw games, watching movies from a shared network resource is what it's all about.
    • Yes, I think you did miss the release where they announced a product that allows you to stream your movies from a shared network resource [microsoft.com].

      3rd-party tools such as XMP do indeed damage revenue, then, just as Linux and BSD damage Windows sales.

      I'm not saying we as customers shouldn't have a choice, I'm just saying that from Company X's point of view a free competing product is definitely going to do some damage.
      • Yes, I think you did miss the release where they announced a product that allows you to stream your movies from a shared network resource.

        Of course, you can only stream from a $1500 windows media center PC. It won't let you stream from a 500gb Raid V Samba share, or a NAS device.

        I'm just saying that from Company X's point of view a free competing product is definitely going to do some damage.

        I wouldn't exactly describe them as "competing products", considering the Media center PC marketshare is min

  • It's mine (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Doesn't_Comment_Code ( 692510 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:42AM (#8726051)
    Modifying something you own is NOT illegal. You might be able to do something illegal as a result. Then that action would be illegal, not the modification.

    When I was a kid, nothing was soldered shut. You could open any product you wanted to fix it or see how it worked.

    Recently, I've seen companies try to scare you into not altering what you buy through voiding warranties and placing intimidating stickers on access panels.

    I'm getting sort of sick of it. Once I buy something, it is mine to do with as I please. I can meddle with it, improve it, or smash it with a hammer. It's mine. And I'd appreciate if they could all remember that.

    • Re:It's mine (Score:3, Informative)

      by Jacer ( 574383 )
      It is illegal, deal with it. If you want to change the law (dmca) that makes acts that circumvent copy protection illegal, then you need to lobby your representatives. here [eff.org] are some good links
      • Actually, I have sent two letters to each of my congressmen concerning DMCA/copyright issues. In each I have noted that I am a copyright owner, and that I am totally against laws that skew the balance between copyright holders and copyright consumers.

        I would encourage everyone else to contact their congressmen as well. Most of them have a contact form on their webpage.
    • Kinda like modifing gasoline with fertilizer? Technically I _own_ both products, right?

      Ever notice on the back of many products it says "This is the sole property of XXXX, all rights reserved, duplication, modification, or passing this to a friend is illegal" yadda yadda (for example the back of a satellite card for your TV will have this warning)... Does that explain it? You may not think it's right, but then, nobody is forcing you into purchasing the product in the first place...

  • Go with your gut feeling (Score:4, Informative)

    by HardCase ( 14757 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:42AM (#8726055)
    Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?


    The majority of the mod chip users that I know are pirates.


    -h-

  • Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by StandardCell ( 589682 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:44AM (#8726070)
    ...revenues are down because of "pirate" chips, yet there's a marked decline in originality and an increase in sequels? [gamemarketwatch.com]

    This is almost starting to sound like the flailings of the RIAA.

  • Backups are legit for some of us... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stephenisu ( 580105 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:44AM (#8726077)
    how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups?

    Those of us with young children who love playing with shiny discs...

    The DiscDoctor can't do a lot when they scrape off the top of the disc, or you have resurfaced it so many times the disc gets too thin for the laser to focus..

  • Come on (Score:5, Funny)

    by Swamii ( 594522 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:44AM (#8726078) Homepage
    What a liar. We make backups; just most of the backups are of games that we don't own. :-)

  • I never (Score:3, Interesting)

    by stoolpigeon ( 454276 ) <bittercode@gmail> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:46AM (#8726098) Homepage Journal
    knew much about mod chips or anything and then last week I watched that new Broken video where they showed a little bit about installing them on 3 consoles. I never understood what mod chips did before that.

    They made it perfectly clear in that video that the whole point was you could borrow or rent games and then keep them after you return the physical media. Why else would you pay that kind of money for the chip and then install it- when it looks like you are chancing junking the console?

    Now I still use my Sega Genesis- I don't own one of the newer systems, so maybe I'm wrong. But it seems that the slant of this - "it's not for illegal uses!" argument in the thread is /. bias that is as bad or worse than any assumptions the author of the article made.

    • Re:I never (Score:2, Informative)

      by iainl ( 136759 )
      Sure, I'm perfectly prepared to believe there are many out there using it to copy games, just as many people copied Playstation games.

      But every chipped XBox owner I know is more interested in playing copies of Genesis or Snes games than illegal XBox ones. Not least because practically every decent XBox game these days is online, and you can't play backups on Live.

  • One word: kids (Score:5, Insightful)

    by badzilla ( 50355 ) <ultrak3wl&gmail,com> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:47AM (#8726105)
    I'm amazed how fragile PS2 games are, one decent-size scratch on the printed side and its a goner. You and I might put such a sensitive and expensive item carefully back in its jewel case, but kids drop them behind the TV or use them as impromptu cutting tools or space weapons. I've lost count of the tearful occasions when things won't load.

    Their console isn't modchipped - but I wish it was.

    • Re:One word: kids (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Zenki ( 31868 )
      Then kids need to learn to take care of their media. The next time they complain that some game or DVD movie is not load, just calmly tell them why it won't load. Show them the scratches on the bottom of the dvd, or the gouge on top that destroyed the data layer. Explain to them the media is completely ruined and that it was a big chunk of change.

      Let them contemplate that and if they start treating other games better, then reward them by replacing that lost game or movie. It'll save you money in the lo

      • Re:One word: kids (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mr.capaneus ( 582891 )
        Explain to them the media is completely ruined and that it was a big chunk of change.Let them contemplate that...
        Either you don't spend much time around kids or you spend time around some exceptionally mature ones. Keep in mind that we are talking about little people that pick their nose and eat it.
  • The focus of the column seems to be on the use of mod chips as a way to circumvent game copy controls and glosses over legitimate uses

    Like P2P, there certainly are "legitimate" uses. But it is still true that people here tend to "gloss over" the fact that just like P2P, people DO use mod chips to pirate games. One of the biggest reasons that claims of "fair use" and such fall on deaf ears is that it is simply a fact that mod chips and P2P are used for pirating.

  • RANT: This got way too far... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sploxx ( 622853 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:47AM (#8726115)
    Why the hell has one to argument that there are legal uses (backup etc.) to make a good case for mod chips?

    IMHO, I should be able to do what I want, with the hardware I bought. Trash it, burn in (keeping the fumes out of the environment, of course ;), stomp on it or mod it!!

    Why got it that far that one now has to argument that 'there are legitimate uses'?!

    Sometimes I really tend to believe that all the anti-piracy ads, acts, etc. transport subliminal mind-control messages even to /.ers... this can't be true?!

    Disclaimer: I never owned a gaming console, and I am not planning to buy one.

  • Imports? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by t_allardyce ( 48447 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:48AM (#8726122) Journal
    I know lots of people who use mod chips to play legal? import games.

    Legal or not, you cannot ban mod-chips, theres simply no way. The chip itself is just a blank microprocessor (usually a PIC) which is perfectly legal, and the code which goes on it is tiny and you just cant stop a tiny file spreading around the net. As far as im concerned the moment manufacturers started putting restrictions in their consoles they decided to play by the game of technology and if they have the right to do that then you have the right to modify something you own.

  • Terrible research (Score:5, Informative)

    by jvmatthe ( 116058 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:48AM (#8726123) Homepage
    But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

    And yet not one of them was interviewed! This guy posted on USENET [google.com] asking for information and I responded in email saying that I could tell him about the fliptop modification [curmudgeongamer.com] I made to my PS2. I'd even be happy to give my name for the record because I only use it to play emulators and homebrew software. Furthermore, I only play emulators for which I own the original games. I'm uptight that way, so sue me.

    I'm sure it's more sensational to talk about the modchips and pirates and oh look at all that money that the industry loses to illegal copies of games! But a real opportunity was missed here to discuss what can really be done, within the limits of the law, with a modified console.

    I guess I'll just stay in the back of this Cadillac with all the other folks using a modified console for legal purposes.

  • I have a mod chip in my Xbox. Do I use it to steal games? No. I don't own a single illegal copy of a game. Fact is, I use the mod chip to run Xbox Media Player so I can listen to my MP3's on my stereo and play my downloaded pr0n on my big-screen TV. Now, if you want to talk about the pr0n industry's lost revenues...

  • Import (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shadowcabbit ( 466253 ) <cx.thefurryone@net> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:48AM (#8726130) Journal
    I was going to post something about how the primary legitimate use for a modchip would be to play imported games, but then again, a) it's not technically legitimate, because bypassing the regional lockout could be construed as a DMCA violation (don't ask me how or why), and b) since I'm looking into doing some importing (Bemani and Pop'n Music) relatively soon, I'm actually looking at a bootloader disc or "cheat" device as opposed to opening up my machine.

    Many people I know who import would rather use the bootloader and not a chip. The chip's advantage is that you don't have an extra step when booting an import game; its disadvantage is that it disallows online play (if you're into that sort of thing). Trading a popular and enjoyable use of the system for ten seconds' convenience is not an acceptable trade.

  • Yawn (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TheCarp ( 96830 ) * <sjc@carpaYEATSnet.net minus poet> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:50AM (#8726157) Homepage
    Does it really matter?

    I have noticed a trend lately. People see something that they effectivly can't stop, that is people modifying the hardware THAT THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR. To get around restrictions that were built into it.

    Now some people want to ask "Does this have a legitimate use?". Can it possibly matter? They arn't making WMDs here, they are modifying some game hardware that they bought and paid for, they are modifying their own property.

    I think it absolutly audacious that restrictions of any sort were artificially built into these products for any reason other than operator safety. Even more so that someone would question whether modification of ones own property has "legitimate use".

    The most fundamental legitimate use of a mod chip is "because I wanted to". End of story.

    -Steve

  • Real reasons for mod chips (Score:5, Insightful)

    by emtboy9 ( 99534 ) <jeff.jefflane@org> on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:51AM (#8726164) Homepage
    First off, why is it never mentioned that there has been a significant increase in video game RENTALS in the last few years as more and more video stores (esp the Mom&Pop rental stores) start stocking more and more games? Hell, why should I pay 50+ for a game for my PS2 that I can rent for 5 days for 4.95? I usually have the games I play beat in under 10 days, so for 10 bucks, I get the game, get the play, and dont get stuck with a disk I dont want afterwards.

    As for Mod chips, I dont have a modded PS2 or XBox yet, but if I did, the sole reason would be to play imports from Japan. There are some pretty slick games in Japan that will never make it to market here simply because of the cultural differences. So what choice do I have? Move to Japan, or a Mod chip... since technically, it is illegal for me to go to Japan, buy a PS2, XBox, or GameCube, then bring it back into the country with assorted games.

    Maybe if game companies, like the DVDCCA would get their heads out of their arses for a bit, and realize that the very idea of region coding is stupid, and that gamers are getting tired of paying 50+ per game, for games that are NOT that expensive to design anymore, lower the prices and get rid of the stupid region coding crap.

    I mean, if a new game comes out, that is truely new, with a new engine, new graphics, etc, then yeah, its probably worth 50 bucks or so. But a sequal, or a sequal to a sequal, running on the same base code that the original did, with the only real changes being maps, images and avatars, is NOT worth 50 bucks.

    I certainly would not pay new car price to get my old car re-painted, so why should I pay new game price to get my old game re-mapped?
    • ha, ironically enough if they included the increase in rentals as part of the equation they'd end up using it as 'evidence' that more people are modding and copyring instead of buying.
    • "why is it never mentioned that there has been a significant increase in video game RENTALS" I think they ignore the fact that some games are over priced. I find it crazy to spend $50 on console games... Some games like Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance (I & II) are fun, but can be beat in one or two rental periods ($12 where I'm at for 10 days). That's WAY less than $50. Other games I just wait a few months till they are ~$20-$30 and get them used.
  • Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?

    I think we are wearing rose coloured tinted specs again.

    Please bear in mind when you read the 40 comments about how X only uses his chipped PS2 for development and how Y only uses his to backup games that the kids trash that the people on Slashdot are not indicative of the whole world.

    In other words, yes, 99% of people who purchase a mod-chip do so to

  • The modding scene is much like the P2P scene, of course there are a few legit users who want to, say, run Linux on their Xbox, use their PS2 as a media center (to play Divx/Xvid/SVCD movies) or they want to use Kazaa lite or eMule to download the music of an independant artist who puts their music out there for legal consumption.

    Of course, this isn't the norm. If I had to guess, I'd say that 98% of P2P/Mod-chip users are there to get/play copyrighted works.

    The rest may do legal things with them, but face
  • While I do understand that modchips can allow many unanticipated things to be done with a game console, it was my impression that a major purpose of modding a console was to "free" its extremely cheap computing power for other purposes than games. That is, we know the consoles are sold at a loss, but that is the manufacturer's choice. Sometimes I think that their claims of modding to mis-use consoles (for piracy) is just a "cover story" to keep people from realizing that they can get a powerful computer C
  • The name says it all.

    You just KNOW that he's the illegitimate offspring of a couple of smelly hippies. He was, I'm sure, born in some wretched commune and had the crap beaten out of him by all the kids at school, even the geeks.

    So now, in the classic "rebel against the parents" reaction, he's a big shot (in his own mind, maybe) newspaper columnist who essentially knows squat about the technology he writes about, and just loves to "stick it" to Mom and Dad by kissing Bill Gates' ass as often as possible in

  • In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates (Score:3, Insightful)

    by LordZardoz ( 155141 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @11:58AM (#8726249)
    Not because they are ripping off XBox or PS2 games. Mostly because everyone I know who has modded their XBox uses it to play MAME, NES, or SNES emulated games.

    But while the occasional modder does copy X-Box games, most are not using their XBox in a way that would deprive Microsoft of revenue. Its not like Microsoft can extract any profit from MAME anyway.

    END COMMUNICATION
  • I know a number of people who could care less about pirating console games (mostly since they pirate every game on their PCs anyway, but that's beside the point.)

    What they do use the XBOXes for is cheap standalone DIVX / XVID players -- it's cheaper than building a standalone HTPC, and easier for their parents to use as well!

  • It seems to me, that if I bought an XBox or a PS2 that I should be allowed to use, modify, destroy, cannibalize, alter, fold, spindle, shred, or mutilate said hardware because I bought it with my own money, mod chipping included. If that chip enables me to do things the game companies don't like then the game companies should start offering those features I feel I'm not getting directly out of the hardware which I've purchased. Also, the cost of said features should be proportionate to the cost of commonly
  • Come on, don't get too worked up about this, the guy's obviously going for sensationalism, his remark about fitting all the valid users of mod chips in the back of a Cadillac is a huge clue. This just isn't serious journalism. Wait, he'll be blaming all the deaths in Iraq on tactical shooters next week.

    Now as far as the mod-chip market existing, the console makers caused that one themselves. It's a lot like the DVD player situation, there are quite a few people who are going to mod them just to remove

  • Apparently, simoniker and securitas don't know rule #11 on Slashdot:

    Don't feed the trolls.

    -Adam

  • No more "hurt" than pirated PC games... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DroopyStonx ( 683090 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @12:17PM (#8726452)
    Most people don't have the know how or the care to mod their systems. Sometimes price is an issue. If you can't solder it yourself, you'll most likely have to send it to a shop somehwere and have someone do it for ya. A lot of people don't want to bother with that.. they don't want to bother with the possible risk of frying your system.

    I have a modded PS2 and copy games all the time. I have no problems admitting it. Yeah yeah, I'm a worthless thieving piece of shit, yadda yadda. I'm not justifying it at all, but people have been spreading PC games all over IRC, usenet, P2P, etc... for YEARS. I wouldn't exactly say that the video game industry is suffering because of it.

    It doesn't make it okay to do it, but you don't see PC game developers getting up in arms over it (at least, they aren't going on a stampede like the ??AA). UT2004 has been spread all around and it even includes a patch so you can play it online. Compare the sales of 2004 vs the original, which was probably pirated just as much, if not more.

    On a more moral note, I've thought about getting a mod for my little seven year old brother's PS2 simply because the games are expensive and he has scratched some already. Granted, they still work, but... at $50 a pop, those things aren't easily replaceable. Sure, I suppose he could be taught to handle them better, but people should still be able to make backup copies of games.

    Some might bring up the argument, "Well, with that thinking, how would these companies survive then if everyone did what you're doing?" That's the thing, not everyone does it. I'm sure most people on here know how to go about gettin an ISO of a game if they really wanted it. Does it mean they're going to? The possibility is there, but probably not.

    It doesn't justify it, but this type of problem has always existed and always will exist.

  • Of course they're used mostly for piracy (Score:3, Interesting)

    by realmolo ( 574068 ) * on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @01:01PM (#8726995)
    Yeah, you can backup your games. But unless you are perishingly honest, you won't. You'll rent games, make copies.

    On the X-Box, it's even easier, if you've added a bigger hard drive along with the modchip. You just rip the game to the hard drive.

    Now, as to the question of how this hurts game sales- let me put it this way:

    The only people I know that have modded consoles are myself, and 2 friends who learned how to do it from me.

    NO ONE owns modded consoles. At least, it's a statistically insignificant number. It doesn't hurt sales. What hurts sales is the fact that you'd have to be crazy to pay $50 for a game when you can rent it for $6 and finish it in a few days.

  • Damaged revenue (Score:3, Insightful)

    by swb ( 14022 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @01:06PM (#8727047)
    Did I miss something? Were game vendors, the MPAA or the RIAA promised a certain amount of revenue or revenue growth? If not, how can their revenues be "damaged"?

    The only thing I can think of is that they're just automatically expecting revenue growth, or they have some model that says X consoles means Y games should be sold.

    Either way, why automatically blame piracy for this? Why not blame shitty games, aging console tech, a bad economy, or some other problem?

    It kind of reminds me of the computer software industry that counts every pirated copy a lost sale, despite the fact that most of those copies would have never have been 'sold' due to their cost, complexity or sheer lack of use by the person with a copy of them.

  • both, eventually (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MORTAR_COMBAT! ( 589963 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @01:54PM (#8727523)
    The problem for the honest user of the system is that they want to play a backup game, or an import game, etc. The manufacturers of the system make it so hard to do this, that the easiest way to do this is to add a mod chip.

    Once the mod chip is in, however, no matter your good intentions, the ability to pay $0 instead of $50 for your next game has a strong arm of persuasion.

    Then again, one of the reasons (one, not the only reason) I went with the GameCube is that it is (so far) impossible to pirate games for. I know my limits, and how strong the temptation can be to pirate if given the opportunity.

    Perhaps if the system vendors stopped the nonsensical practice of region-coding, and made it very easy and inexpensive to obtain replacement media copies if yours is damaged, the need for legitimate mod chips would be over, and the temptation to pirate would be removed from the living room.

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