Star Wars Galaxies Users Restless Over Rebalancing 114
Zonk writes "Last Thursday 'Thunderheart', the Community Manager on PC MMO Star Wars Galaxies' forums, dropped a bomb: the long awaited patch rebalancing combat within the game has been pushed off until after the Jump to Lightspeed expansion [which just announced 13 of its 15 spaceships] launches. Given that the JtL expansion is not due until this fall, this puts the combat rebalance somewhere around the beginning of next year. The playerbase has... not taken this well. The original thread on the official forums was locked at 64 pages - it was then picked up again in a thread already surpassing 50 pages. The players are rightly outraged, and the reaction has prompted a response from the Sony Online chain of command. It will be interesting to see how this turns out." Update: 07/21 15:52 GMT by S : There's an interview with producer Haden Blackman over at Game Informer which discusses the issue in more detail.
Re:maybe I'm confused but.. (Score:1)
Is Vader the Community Manager? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Is Vader the Community Manager? (Score:2, Interesting)
Its free (if you have a copy of BF1942) and Vader isn't in it.
And its got nothing to do with SOE
And Lucasarts know about it (and even offer it for download from their website).
Its not an MMORPG but then neither is SWG by all accounts.
I'm sorry to sounds like an advert but GC is fun and I really don't think that MMORPGs are anywhere near mature enough to successfully recreate something like the star wars universe.
IMH
Re:Is Vader the Community Manager? (Score:1)
Can I suggest you make a post in the GC tech support forum detailing your problems, the community is generally quite responsive when it comes to problem solving.
How bad is it? (Score:2)
Re:How bad is it? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:How bad is it? (Score:3, Informative)
The combat balance is essentially a gigantic nerf to all combat. In SWG, combat has become (aside from the CMs) all about spamming special attacks and who gets knocked down first.
this is really rotten (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:this is really rotten (Score:3, Insightful)
SWG, SOE, RPG combat and JtL (Score:4, Interesting)
Seems like they failed to pull off the MMORPG cleanly and had to push it out the door to get some sort of return on their costs. Having spent a year trying to get that playable, it's getting to the stage where the Star Wars brand is no longer a sufficient selling point in the absence of good gameplay.
By delaying their combat rebalance, SOE admittedly piss off subscribers but many of those were pretty pissed off already and have still stuck with SWG. Why? Basically they hope things will improve. If SOE push out the combat rebalance now and it's no good, they will disappoint again. If they wait, those subscribers are likely to hang on long enough to see what the improvements are like. They squeeze a few more months' worth of subs out of people and buy themselves time.
I expect JtL to be indifferent to good and the combat rebalance to be indifferent to poor. I expect JtL will *far* overshadow the RPG combat rebalance. I don't think combat is a priority for SOE in the RPG and from the pre-launch forums I don't think it ever was. They'd rather have a more peaceful, manageable MMORPG world - essentially backstory to JtL. This way moisture farmers pay their subs to live quietly and those who want excitement will have to look for it in JtL.
Re:SWG, SOE, RPG combat and JtL (Score:4, Insightful)
I've always thought that the Star Wars universe has helped to make average games really good (Rebellion), and good games really awesome (The Jedi Knight Series).
If this wasn't based on Star Wars and was based on some random universe this MMORPG would be long dead.
Re:SWG, SOE, RPG combat and JtL (Score:1)
Oh wait, just as rabid a fan base. Nevermind.
Re:SWG, SOE, RPG combat and JtL (Score:2)
I can't disagree with you there. OTOH, the Star Wars brand did nothing to save the abysmally bad licenses that were put out (Rebel Assault & Force Commander to name two).
Re:SWG, SOE, RPG combat and JtL (Score:2)
Re:this is really rotten (Score:2, Informative)
I'm massively unsurprised, as I've seen them do exactly the same thing before.
Planetside was due to have your fee paying for free content, fixes, and upgrades, but instead 95% of the effort appeared to be dumped into the (mediocre) Core Combat expansion, a for-fee upgrade.
No, not bitter, not bitter atall...
Re:this is really rotten (Score:2)
Self balancing? (Score:2, Interesting)
Which ever side sucks, give them a 60-40 / 70-30 majority. This can be done ala counterstrike balancing, initiated by all those people on the forums.
Just put a flag up saying save the *insert side that sucks* and people will rally.
Generally, two sides with equal numbers, one side who is better will always win. Unbalance the numbers to reflect the skills involved, and the games are more interesting.
In the star wars universe, there
Re:Self balancing? (Score:1)
Re:Self balancing? (Score:2)
Not that kind of balance (Score:4, Insightful)
The pvp combat and to a lesser extent the pve combat is unbalanced. PvP is most notable with many classes just not able to take part as their is always some uber-kiddie with every exploit and the one power macro who just can't be stopped.
But the more serious problem is that the game just isn't fun. Whatever made half-life so much greater the quake makes SWG so much less then and this is really nasty, any game out there.
I have played it for a few months and I slowly come to the realisation that there are no unbalances bugs or lack of content. The entire game from beginning to end is just wrong. It seems like every decission they took they took the one that was the least fun. I think that if you really sat down with the game, noted every irritant and then build a game with those you would have the perfect MMORPG. There is something there but sony is unable to bring it out, they tried for two years and honestly it is only getting worse.
Of course those who still play it will defend it, they are like smokers who say they like smoking, SWG has one thing, like EQ it is addicting, the addicition is you searching for the little bit of fun that Sony has missed. You think that just around the next skill box, the next job there is gonna be fun. There isn't.
Perhaps MMORPG's themselves are flawed.
Re:Not that kind of balance (Score:1)
Of course those who still play it will defend it, they are like smokers who say they like smoking
I was starting to think I was the only one who saw through their 'I like to smoke' attitude. Well they probably do get a better feeling, but enjoyment? more like a tolerable incovenience that quashes a craving and gives you something to do with you hands.
I never really played this type of game, sounds complicated.
The State of the Game (Score:5, Informative)
I started my character June 29, and as of right now I've mastered a combat profession (TKA) and have around 2 million credits in the bank. Due to the combat inbalance, you can pull in around 500k-1mil credits every three hours doing "solo group" missions (that is to say, a bunch of people max out a group in order to gain access to ~35k reward destroy missions and go solo the missions for the full payout). I don't know anyone (aside from guilds) that currently group for the actual purpose of cooperative gameplay.
I played the beta, and for the buggy POS that it was, at LEAST there was some sense of community. People would form hunting parties and such on the high level planets. Now it's all about getting buffed by a master doctor for 3 hours and soloing (whether for credits or xp). The whole routine is wearing a bit thin, and I'm not sure I'll renew until JTL and/or they fix the combat balance problem.
Re:The State of the Game (Score:1)
This is exactly the reason why I have yet to play a mmorpg. As with any rpg its great for awhile players actually know what the "R" in in rpg stands for and really play there characters.
Then it turns into munchkin land, all role playing is thrown out the window, everybody is god like because there is this or that exploit where you level up or become super strong if two hours. And then the game is all a
Re:The State of the Game (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The State of the Game (Score:1)
Because "good" or "evil" that's what Heros do. Save the day.
My thought on Jedi (Score:2)
They basically bowed to player pressure and threw continuity out w/ the bath water.
There's a state of the game on the SWG site where a dev states it is to make the game more fun. Personally I'm not interested in playing a Star Wars MMORPG full of Jedi. That's why they make the Jedi Knight series.
There shouldn't be a Jedi sys
Delays and a lack of professionalism (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the perfect example of how so many developers shoot themselves in the foot and harm both their own chances of success and the reputation of the industry. This is particularly true of the PC gaming industry, which has seen its credibility battered by behaviour like this over the last few years. I'm talking about this habit that developers have of whipping up interest in a product, claiming it's going to be here "very soon" and then not delivering.
The most spectacular example of this recently has been Half-Life 2. I forget when exactly Valve went public with what they'd been doing on Half-Life 2... I think it was some time around March 2003. When they unveiled it, there was a predictable and deserved *thud* sound as jaws hit the floor. More impressively still, at a time when Doom 3 was still stuck in the mystic lands of "when it's done", Valve announced that Half-Life 2 would be appearing in September that year... just a few months away. I remember speaking to some friends about this at the time; the consensus was that Valve had just compltely undermined ID, that ID were going to be a laughing stock and that Doom 3 wouldn't be looking so special by the time of its release, as Valve would have comprehensively stolen their thunder.
Of course, we all know how the story developed. The September 30th release date for HL2 came and went, with no release in sight. Sure, Valve got unlucky (or stupid, depending on how you see it) over the source-code leak, but from what I've heard (I've not seen the leaked source-code, nor do I particularly want to), the game wasn't even close to being ready for release last September. Indeed, there's a growing feeling that the revised release date of *this* September is now looking unlikely. The result? Valve lost a lot of credibility. Their main rivals, ID, gained a lot of ground back, because people felt that while "when it's done" release dates are a bad idea, ID had at least been consistent about it and, of course, it's now gone gold. Much of Half-Life 2's thunder was stolen by Far Cry, which delivered much of what HL2 promised, with far less hype. The overall loser? The PC gaming industry in general, which has further cemented its reputation with its customers as unprofessional, unfocussed and unable to deliver.
The Galaxies fiasco doesn't sound as though it's on quite the same scale. At least the game is out in this case, although it's hardly had the best of press during its first year. However, with a MMORPG, customer trust is an absolutely vital issue. With a standalone game, it helps but it's not vital, as you can generally persuade the punters to "take a chance" on an unknown title, if it looks tempting enough. But the MMORPG model requires both getting customers and keeping them; if you lose their trust, your business is going to decline pretty quickly.
Re:Delays and a lack of professionalism (Score:1)
Re:Delays and a lack of professionalism (Score:1)
Team Fortress Two
Dreamcast Half Lift
While I don't doubt HL2'll ship, AFAI am concerned they lost all cred IRT ship dates after that.
Re:Delays and a lack of professionalism (Score:4, Insightful)
>I remember speaking to some friends about this at the time; the consensus was that Valve had just compltely undermined ID, that ID were going to be a laughing stock and that Doom 3 wouldn't be looking so special by the time of its release.
You need to get some wiser friends
Those of us not wet behind the ears know that you judge a project *when it ships*, not at the E3 demo. We're still waiting to play Valve's TF2 [sierra.com] - Voted "Best Action Game" & "Best Mutliplayer Game" 1999 !
> the mystic lands of "when it's done"
A week on Monday. Where's HL2 ?
All this has *nothing* to do with the Expansion Pack MMORPG issues.
I was a long time EQ subscriber and DAOC subscriber. I've seen expansion pack after expansion pack come along. It's $40 for hours and hours of content (if it's any good
I've had more expensive drinks!
Re:Delays and a lack of professionalism (Score:3, Insightful)
What I think ne
The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone(or a favourable majority) needs to band together and cancel their accounts for a period of one month. Then if the actions on SOE's part are still not satisfactory after this period, extend it to two months and so on.
If SOE counters by threatining the future of the game, then so what; it's just a game. Move on. The players need to be in control, after all it is your money.
If you simply roll-over and wait, nothing will change. Remember your sub is your vote, not some online petition or forum whine. Use it.
Re:The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:1)
Strikes, petitions (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree that SOE seems to be somewhat contemptous of their subscribers and particularly of views expressed in the forums. I suspect the forums are kept on mainly as a means to allow players to let off steam rather than anything else. Are they still closed to outsiders? That always seemed a particularly cynical
Re:Strikes, petitions (Score:1, Interesting)
The forums (at least the ones I check. Sony has subdivided the forum community into so many different topics it would take a full day for someone to read them all, let alone actually play the game) are full of suggestions to either 'boycott
Re:The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:1)
That is what I did.....
Re:The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:1)
Re:The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:2)
Actually the name is supposed to be a reference to the lawyer from Usual Suspects, but the hotdog guy is just an added bonus :)
Re:The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The solution...STRIKE!!! (Score:1)
What's with the SWG bias... ? (Score:2)
"RPG based on Star Wars" == "News For Nerds"
Sure, I'm cool with that.
But surely news on a ""RPG based on comic books" is equally nerd-worthy.
And yes, there have been a couple of
Are comics truely more mainstream and less nerdy than Star Wars these days... or is it SWG that is more nerdy and less mainstream than SWG? I don't get it.
Re:What's with the SWG bias... ? (Score:1)
Roger
Re:What's with the SWG bias... ? (Score:2)
Re:What's with the SWG bias... ? (Score:1)
THe bugs in Galaxies are significant enough to warrent a recall on Sony's part. If SWG was a TV or DVD player, 60 Minu
Laws of SOE (Score:4, Funny)
#2) Technical support is the responsibility of the user
#3) Forums may be used to discuss the game at large, unless posts include serious issues with the game or make SOE look bad
#4) The game you purchased out of the box may need to be patched, and then patched some more, and then there will be a requisite gameplay change, and then a mandatory expansion, and then another gameplay tweak, and probably all that over again. Thank you for beta testing with SOE, your monthly fee will be deducted from your credit card.
#5) Game stability, server performance and non-crash level bugs (like spawning as a wall) are second priority to releasing new material which will cost you more money.
Re:Laws of SOE (Score:2)
#6) If you have any problems with the Laws, see #1
Re:Laws of SOE (Score:1)
The whole expansion thing never made sense to me. Arn't you supposed to be paying $10-$15 a month for new content? Why should anyone have to buy an expansion for new content?
Re:Laws of SOE (Score:1)
Bah. (Score:1)
-read- Thunderheart's message.
Yes, the Rebalance has been a long time coming. But I'd rather that it take longer in coming than rush it up and have it bug prone.
Come on, any one out there... how many publishes has SOE made for Galaxies that they didn't have to do a fix to solve a problem within a week... for a problem that was noticed on Test centre?
One can hope that they'r
Re:Bah. (Score:1)
Wow, they keep screwing the pooch. (Score:3, Interesting)
The combat rebalance is probably the most important patch they could do. Even more important than the Jedi revamp they did a month or two ago because combat effects everyone Sure the old Jedi system led to crappy hologrinding, but there were plenty of people who weren't caught up in the hologrind who just wanted to play. What good is it for the Jedi now anyway when a good fencer template can still beat most of them? Combat has been borked from day one, and kostner never cared because he is so anti-PvP. Now they are going to rush out a FPS add on before fixing the game for their playerbase? They are going to tank the jump to lightspeed too. They might have attracted FPS players, if they didn't make space combat only optional. That is right folks, it's going to be like playing quake with spaceships, but you have to ASK people first if you can shoot them. DOESN'T that sounds like FUN!!!!
I really wanted SWG to be fun, I played the first few months and quit, I started playing again last april, and quit again because the Jedi Revamp looked like a clusterfuck. I was right. It just keeps getting worse. How could an idea that seemed so good (a SWG MMORPG) turn out so wrong? They've turned Star Wars into the Sims in space. Bleh.
Re:Wow, they keep screwing the pooch. (Score:2)
The way it works is similar to the current combat system, however instead of turning and firing at something behind you, you can only fire when the target is in front of you. This does force a more FPS type system since you need to continually manuver, skills of your character determine hit/miss.
The total FPS stuff was just a rumor started in 2001 that started to build up alot of power.
If you read the current stuff, unless t
Re:Wow, they keep screwing the pooch. (Score:2)
Star Wars Galaxies = Titanic? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Star Wars Galaxies = Titanic? (Score:1)
Re:Star Wars Galaxies = Titanic? (Score:2)
And this is precisely why I will never again play a SOE game. This attitude is too prevalent. The EQ developers are only starting to snap out of it over the last year or so, which is why so much good has happened to EQ lately...
Still, I'll stick with either CoH, which is beer-and-pretzely enough with gamer-and-comic-mark devs, and AC, which has in its past completely lost control of its game for days at a time bec
Message Not Found as of 715am PST (Score:2)
Re:Message Not Found as of 715am PST (Score:1)
I really feel for all the people out there... (Score:2, Informative)
Combat was seriously hosed since day 1 of that game -- that's the other part of why I quit. It's quite vindicating to see that not on
Here is my two cents (Score:1)
Pay No Attention..... (Score:1)
This maneuver by SOE is simply providing a distraction to all of the core issues that are plaguing SWG. Subscribers have every right to be enraged, because it is obvious at this point that the dev team is slow to produce quality, bug-free content. Why would the JTL expansion be any different (in terms of quality) than SWG in its initial phases? After all, JTL is going to be a
Combat shmombat (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's an idea: instead of seeing how many mobs you can beat up, or how many Rebels you can kill, why not do something different with your playing time? Go to a cantina and actually interact with the entertainers rather than wiping off your battle fatigue and mind wounds in silence and then stalking away. Go to an image designer and change your look rather than sit in stony silence for ten minutes while your stats migrate. Go collect badges. There's a ton of stuff to do and see. Combat is not the be-all and end-all.
And if absolutely none of that sounds fun, then why are you bothering? I mean, it's your LEISURE time. You shouldn't spend your own time on something that makes you so angry that you're not enjoying it anymore.
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:2)
I understand that some people are unable or unwilling to talk; I hate it myself, which is why I force myself to do it in-game.
If you feel there's nothing left to do, then I hope you're not still playing. And don
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:2)
I've not played the game, but it seems to me that if it is possible for macros to perform the tasks that are required in game, they can't be that complex to do. So you're left with a virtual chat room with some additional clicking to do while you think of something to say.
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
I haven't started SWG but am looking for reasons to - please repost a working link!
8-PP
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
The website forwards to cPanel which gives this message "There is no website configured at this address" when using Mozilla, but seems to work with IE variants!
Ugh. Too bad. But that is what's wrong.
Thanks for the reply! I may decide to use IE to give them a chance.
8-PP
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:1)
Mozilla 1.6
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113
Maybe it's time for me to upgrade?
Thanks again for answering
Re:Combat shmombat (Score:2)
Your fishing pole analogy is faulty; I'm not suggesting that you use the fishing pole for something other than fishing--I'm suggesting that you catch a different kind of fish for a change.
All the links are down (Score:1, Interesting)
Combat Rebalance (Score:1)
Message Deleted (Score:2)
Give the Community Folks a *little* credit... (Score:2)
As is always the case with a MMOG, the forums folks only represents maybe 5% of the playerbase. The folks who are having fun with the game are just out there playing.
At the same time, combat is horribly imbalanced. PvP is a joke and from all the commentary I've seen they're losing players pretty quick.
Sony's response has been nuked? (Score:2)
See, I've said this before (Score:1)
Did I miss something? (Score:2)
SOE have deleted the thread (Score:1)
Re:SOE have deleted the thread (Score:1)
This is why I'm not playing (Score:1)
Then I heard this news, and de-installed. A lot of what we're talking about here are what I call "spreadsheet fixes"; things that are entirely evident when you lay the skills out in rows and columns and just eyeball them. More deeply, though, there's a real problem with class balance (and I won't give examples so I don't touch off a frenzy). In some cases, classes have no useful role;
Not a good way to attract new players. (Score:1)
Re:Not a good way to attract new players. (Score:1)
Fundamental Design Issues (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Setting - Galactic Civil war during the middle of the OT.
This basically means that you have to limit Jedi, can't have any quests, mob kills, or loot that have far reaching consequences because it would interefere with the continuity. The devs just painted themselves into a corner where the power of the players had to be artificially kept low
Contrast this with the popular KOTOR which the devs had pretty much free reign. Want hundreds of Jedi running around? sure. Want a homicidal assassin droid? okay. Want to kill the dark lord of the sith? It's Cool.
2. Economy - Pure player driven
Players are by their nature greedy, People want new, useful, shiney things, just look at the successful camp-n-loot gameplay of EQ. Well the pure player economy means that adventurers have to focus on cash missions rather than exploration. What incentive do you have to explore if you don't get a reward, and infact you are penalized, since those who are just running baz nitch money missions are driving up prices. Finally the devs understood and included more useful loot drops. I think they are slowly getting to balancing loot-vs-player.
3. Character Development - pure skill based
Major balancing headaches. A pure class driven structure makes balancing so much easier, since you can have very specific roles. We are still looking at balancing issues a year later in SWG. It used to be the uber creature handlers walking around with 3 rancors within a day. Then it was the pistoleers able to waste people with ultra fast guns, then there were 1 shot kill rifle men, and then there have always been the pvp medics. What makes it so hard is there are so many combinations, and you can't make 1 combination significantly worse/better than another.
4. Size of the Universe - HUGE
I remember the devs bragged that the universe would be several times the size of EQ and RoK expansion together. Of course, they forgot to mention it would have half the content. They basically decreased the density of "interesting" stuff. So instead of 5 minutes between an interesting dungeon, or camp like in EQ, it was a 20 minute boring run where you would see nothing. Vehicles have definately helped, since you get the sense of size along with being able to get from point A to point B quickly. But all the content still feels diffuse.
5. Combat - Typcial RPG Style
It just breaks down the "feel" of Star Wars. I don't remember a Stormtrooper running up 2 feet from Luke and both of them standing there for a few minutes taking shots at each other (including several hits). In the movies they had long gun battles, it was just because people were dodging, running around, taking cover not because they had huge amount of hitpoints. I had hoped SWG would have created an innovative way capturing the feel of battling with blasters, but they didn't.
Like I said, to me the game design is inherently flawed. I think that is why they are focusing on the JtL expansion. Because it will be their way of breaking away from the contraints of their original decisions. If it works out I think we will see a focus on the space aspects of SWG, probably to the detriment of the land based RPG game that is being played now.
Really Sounds like Blackman is Lying (Score:2)
In addition, Blackman's repetition of something like the following:
is really problematic. One of the posters in the second SOE thread took the trouble to compile
a players story.... (Score:1, Insightful)
fast forward 5 months, to the end of june. at the
Subscription Numbers (Score:1)
They can't fight the street-knowledge that the game is pretty boring, that the game fell FAR short of the hype surrounding it, and that they hav
Combat Revamp's close to impossible (Score:1)
However, I do feel for the veteran players (pretty new myself)--the combat revamp was thrown around back in the latter half of 2003, with Thunderheart promising that they were prioritizing work on it. Hence the recent 1000+ exodus.
Honestly, I'm not sure the combat rebalance would ever happen (at