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PlayStation (Games) Entertainment Games

Sony/IBM/Toshiba: CELL Almost Ready 78

Posted by timothy from the just-polishing-the-lock dept.
thryllkill writes "According to Gamespot the CELL processor, assumed to be the main processor for the Playstation3, is near completion. The short (and light) article also says that the chip will be used in IBM computers and Toshiba electronic devices. The CELL processor is significant because it is touted to utilize grid technology over broadband connections to make the graphics capabilities of the new Playstation many times greater than the competition."
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Sony/IBM/Toshiba: CELL Almost Ready More

Sony/IBM/Toshiba: CELL Almost Ready

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  • I'm still on a dial-up modem, you insensitive clod!!!
    • I'm not sure what that broadband comment is about, but in the article they just say 'high-bandwidth'. In either case I think they are referring to the bandwidth of the communications inside the box, from processor to processor or whatever.
    • The "broadband" is actually referring to the interconnect between the processor cores. The /. summary is a bit misleading at first glance, but then it was that confusion that actually got me to RTFA. Sony has been preaching home convergence for so long, I remember years ago first reading in wired the plans for the PLaystation 2 to be your digital hub. Now the Cell is going to invade all of my comonents?

      Sony will never again have the pervasive clout to take over your entire living room, not to mention your

  • Latency? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by digerata ( 516939 )
    I'm sorry, but could someone please explain to me how graphic rendering can be done with something with such high latency as a network connection? Its bad enough when I have to use MAIN MEMORY.

    • Re:Latency? (Score:5, Informative)

      by richy freeway ( 623503 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @11:03AM (#10256990)
      Does it anywhere say Broadband Internet connection?

      No.

      Thanks for listening.
      • Any network latency is much higher than even your main memory.
        Ideally graphics memory has that is very quick and dedicated to the graphics gard itself.
        Now you may be thinking of distributed rendering, which is a non-realtime process and lends itself well to running over a distributed network render.
      • Damn, the IQ level of /. is going down at a faster and faster rate.

        I miss the before time, from the long, long ago.
    • The same way the PS/2 can do photo realistic graphics using the patented Sony Distortion Field (TM).
    • It's called prerendering and it's often done today, only not quite so far ahead. In fact there have been assorted systems which have done some of the rendering on the host and some on the client, to take load off the client.

  • How? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Jahf ( 21968 )
    We've been hearing about how this processor is going to help broadband connections speed up the system for awhile, often saying it will speed up graphics.

    How?

    Yes, I get grid technology for massively parallel computing ... but speeding up graphics would:

    * require an amazing bandwidth ... 256K down / 128K up (basically the minimum for me to consider it broadband and you have to consider the minimums) is just not going to cut it.

    * require insanely low latency ... imagine a twitch game where your ping affec

    • Re:How? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It's all marketing rubbish. They did exactly the same thing with the 'Emotion Engine' chip when the PS2 was being developed.
    • Amazingly there is less information on cell than on bluegene

      Both of which are interesting

    • Re:How? (Score:5, Funny)

      by rmarll ( 161697 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @10:46AM (#10256778) Journal

      This technology allows intimidated japanesee business men to wave their hands in the air and distract you from X-Box 2 announcements.

      They're so tiny, and they have massive quantities of unobtanium! The PS3 must be better than X-Box 2.

      ------------
      On a more serious note, I think Cell is more a way to add many processors efficiently to a system. I.E. wait till X-Box 2 specs are known and put in as many processors as it takes to beat them on the tech front. The internet thing is bullshit.

    • Re:How? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by QuantumRiff ( 120817 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @10:47AM (#10256780)
      The Cell chip is a bunch of little processors on the same die, (think dual core, but its more like 16). the broadband they are talking about is the super high speed bus (on the chip) between the cores. By broadband they are talking about the bandwitdth between the cores, bandwidth is not only a measure of network speed.

      • Re:How? (Score:3, Informative)

        by TeknoHog ( 164938 )
        By broadband they are talking about the bandwitdth between the cores, bandwidth is not only a measure of network speed.

        "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does." ;)

        Bandwidth does not mean data-transfer rate, no matter what the marketroids say. They are different quantities measuring different things in different units. Even though they are related in some cases.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth [wikipedia.org]

        http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=871448 [everything2.org]

        http://everything2 [everything2.org]

      • Actually that is only partly true. Yes, they can put cores on the same device, but GRID computing is linking *networked* devices to share the load. This portion of the capabilities will probably see little use on the PS3 except perhaps as a novelty, unless they plan on selling expansions boxes that put more processors on the machine. If they do so it would complicate development quite a bit and consumers would need to know "minimum Cells" required to run a game. Doubtful that part makes the cut.

        In the serv

        • Re:How? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by MarsDefenseMinister ( 738128 )
          IBM's vision of GRID computing is that compute resources are like the electrical grid: you pull what you need from the grid on demand. Personally I don't see the value for most applications

          That's not entirely complete, so that's why you don't see the value. IBM will have a great big server farm, with machines filling the room, all subpartitioned.

          Company X, Y, and Z will tell IBM "take my apps and host them for me". IBM could host them all conventionally, which is fine. But, they have the technology to us
          • I see your point, but I was really trying to clarify that the "over broadband" capabilities of CELL chips wasn't really tailored for the PS3, only the multiprocessing in a box.

            Nevertheless, I don't see how GRID really helps with data intensive as opposed to compute intensive work. Your example of HR Block during tax season is an great example of why I don't see it working that well. Someone still has to collect and enter all the data. While actually computing the tax liability is quite quick and easy, the
            • HR Block was just an example I used to show how a businesses busyness can vary over time. i.e. an analogy is an illustraton, not an argument that holds up in situations that weren't addressed.

              You're right that it's application hosting. What I was pointing out is that the application hosting environment (transparent to the customer) uses GRID technology to support it.

              And as far as data transfer goes, they don't do much of that. Instead of running one app across multiple machines, they are running multiple
              • Interesting. I think there are two usages of the word grid being thrown about. The first is a case like what you describe: a closely coupled processing center which can scale based on demand.

                However, I have also seen the word grid used to describe SETI@Home type endevors, except in a more dynamic way where idle devices can be enlisted to assist overloaded devices. Obviously the second form can use large application hosting facilities, but it could also use workstations to colaborate on a task.

                These peop [aip.org]

                • Re:How? (Score:4, Informative)

                  by MarsDefenseMinister ( 738128 ) <dallapieta80@gmail.com> on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @07:10PM (#10261603) Homepage Journal
                  Actually they are the same. Grid is a term that is more general than Seti-like infrastructure. Grid is the technology that enables other things. In the case of SETI, the technology enables the SETI@home product to run across multiple computers. In the case of IBM, Grid enables their On-Demand product. Hopefully that helps out a bit. IBM has been rather confusing in explaining the relationship between grid tech and On-Demand. In case you're wondering, people inside of IBM are sometimes confused too.
      • So basically, by "broadband" they mean "tech-journalism jargon" ... I see now. I was mistaken, though. I thought the Cell system was going to be a simple plug-and-play SMP system (early on they did talk about plugging an extra Cell into your PS3 for added speed... though this may very well have been Sony speaking out of its ass).

      • Re:How? (Score:1)

        by Jahf ( 21968 )
        Fair enough ... first time I had seen this distinction and so "broadband" was taken in it's most common meaning.

        Are there any pages posted that talk about how this processor's architecture will enable faster information transmission than say Hypertransport?

    • I was going to moderate you, then saw your .sig.

      They didn't mean a network connection.

  • Information on El Reg (Score:5, Informative)

    by Doodlepants ( 646546 ) * on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @10:51AM (#10256841)
    El Reg has an informative piece up http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/05/sony_cell_ cpu_to_deliver/ [theregister.co.uk]
    • It all makes sense now! The "broadband" quote came from Kutaragi, who either (a) doesn't speak English as a first language, or (b) was incorrectly translated, or (c) is an executive and therefore able to use jargon incorrectly as much as he wants. For anyone scratching their heads about grid processing over broadband, substitute "bus" for broadband and you'll probably start to get it, as he was talking about chip-to-chip communications, not system-to-system. Read the register article in the parent post,

  • Little Timmy meets P3... (Score:3, Funny)

    by DamienMcKenna ( 181101 ) <.damien. .at. .mc-kenna.com.> on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @10:55AM (#10256890)
    "Mom, please hang up the phone, you're seriously affecting my FPS rate!"

    Damien

  • You scientists never learn! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Wylfing ( 144940 ) <brian@nOspAm.wylfing.net> on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @11:34AM (#10257314) Homepage Journal
    Sure, this "Cell" sounds interesting on paper. But things always go horribly wrong [theotaku.com].

  • How NOT to summarise an article (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Andy_R ( 114137 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @11:47AM (#10257434) Homepage Journal
    What the slashdot summary of the story said:
    "The CELL processor is significant because it is touted to utilize grid technology over broadband connections to make the graphics capabilities of the new Playstation many times greater than the competition."

    What the original article actually said:
    "the CELL is a next-generation multimedia processor with the ability to handle intensive graphics and high-bandwidth communications."

    So much for clarity and brevity.
  • does this mean that we cant play games on the ps3 without a internet connection?

  • Cell is an architecture, not the processor for PS3 (Score:5, Informative)

    by News for nerds ( 448130 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @12:31PM (#10257910) Homepage
    Cell is a scalable processor architecture, and its prefered embodiment called Broadband Engine in this patent [uspto.gov] by SCE is expected in PS3.

    While broadband in Broadband Engine obviously means high-speed interconnection between its APUs and PEs and PUs and eDRAM in the first place, its double meaning propagates through its optical interface. This Broadband-ness will initially start from optical-fiber intranet in home, then Cell spreads to servers, routers in ISP, and so on to form larger network. Rather than sharing power, its main point is sharing the same language/ISA across the network. X86 is not enough apparently, without network-awareness such as GUID and latency calculation of remote object. The patent states "1. A computer network comprising: a plurality of processors connected to said network, each of said processors comprising a plurality of first processing units having the same instruction set architecture and a second processing unit for controlling said first processing units, said first processing units being operable to process software cells transmitted over said network, each of said software cells comprising a program compatible with said instruction set architecture, data associated with said program and an identification number uniquely identifying said software cell among all of said software cells transmitted over said network. "

    I don't know what OS will be used to control them, but Linux must be one of candidates in Cell server-side.

  • Shenanigans!!! (Score:2, Flamebait)

    by clu76 ( 620823 )
    I'm calling shenanigans on Sony. This is pure marketting garbage. While I'm sure CELL technology will benefit some areas of computing, video gaming won't be one of them for a long time. I can see Sony using this technology to encourage PS3 owners to buy Sony brand cell processor televisions, dvd players, music mans, etc... All for a technology that most game developers won't even bother with.

  • What it means in a nutshell from a nut... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @01:21PM (#10258402)
    Some people still don't understand, and you call yourself geeks...

    The Cell Processor will have, lets say for arguments sake, 10 CPU cores on a grid setup. This means that the work load will be distrabuted through out the 10 cores evenly or where needed. The term grid probley come from the fact that this is how server farms work in theroy. Who knows.

    Now for what bradband is... IT IS NOT A INTERNET CONNECTION! They are talking about the pipe/wires/lines/monkeys that will carry the data to the cores, cpu, memory, and such.

    You don't need a server farm for the grid, it's not that kind of grid, nor do you need a power station, it's not a power grid eather. You don't need bradband, but it might help if it has a connection for 1Gigbit.

    Brush up on your geek myfriends.

  • Clever... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by automandc ( 196618 ) * on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @02:19PM (#10259024)
    If you look at the ever-promised convergence of computing and consumer electronics, this makes a lot of sense. Starting with just a PS3, Sony can gradually induce you to buy all Sony equipment.

    First, they sell you a 4-core PS3 that runs all of the 1st Gen PS3 games. Then, as the developers learn to use the platform, and the development tools get better, the games start requiring more processing power. Sony then starts selling 8-core or more PS3 consoles (and/or upgrade cards).

    Second, Sony starts offering other electronics with CELL chips. E.g. televisions with built in MPEG-2 Decoders utilizing CELL processors. So, instead of buying a new PS3, you buy a Sony television with 4-core CELL, and plug in the P3 via Fiber optic for a total of 8-cores. And when you aren't playing games, the TV can use the PS3 for additional decoding power (e.g. for multiple channel DVR functionality etc.).

    Then, buy a Sony PC with "media center" functionality, and it has additionall CELLs on board (along with the regular x86), and thereby boosts the whole home "network" if connected via fiber (some propriatary interface Sony will no doubt make big bucks on).

    Fiber isn't necessarily new in the home for this type of application. My stereo already has fiber-interconnects for digital audio (DVD, HDTV Cable Box, PS2).

    Final stage: all of your entertainment devices are CELL based. Sony starts selling "modules" which do nothing but add additional CELLs to the network. Plug in an additional 4-Core CELL module and you can play PS3 games that won't run on just the console. Sony doesn't need to come out with new consoles anymore, just better development tools, and more consumer stuff that interconnects. ("Sure, you can buy the other toaster, but if you buy the SONY CELL toaster you can play the newest games!")

    It's the ultimate in market lock-in, and unlike Betamax, it just may work if the PS3 is widely adopted as just the newest console. If they port Linux and OO to it, they may even give MS a run for their money in the general home-OS market! Wow, it's diabolical.

    • And at that point Sony will rename it SkyNet and wipe out mankind. We know that story already.

    • Re:Clever... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by aliens ( 90441 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @05:59PM (#10261034) Homepage Journal
      Only problem is that breaks the entire Console way of making games. Game designers who work on consoles know exactly how their game runs on a system. If they have to start creating multiple settings for users to turn on and off it's going to get more complicated I would think. Suddenly they have to count the number of CELL's connected and adjust the game accordingly.

      Or release games that have CELL requirements? Sounds good for a techie, but for an average consumer?

      kids: "Mommy mommy I want that game it says PS3"

      moms: "I guess that means it will run correctly"

      At least that's how I see it.
      • One thing that can scale in video games is resolution. However that's basically dependent on the speed of the core system. Unless you have multiple-gigabit links between nodes it's going going to help with computation which must be carried out that fast. Another thing that can scale is scene complexity when things can be prerendered, probably through the use of multires models - models have thousands upon thousands of polygons which are automatically removed one at a time until the proper speed (frame rate)
    • That all sounds good until they shove some ass stupid "standard" like memory sticks or mini-disks in.

      Still if they forgo the usual I'm interested...

  • Err...what? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by JustNiz ( 692889 )
    >> The CELL processor is significant because it is touted to utilize grid technology over broadband connections to make the graphics capabilities of the new Playstation many times greater than the competition."

    I presume this is not what it sounds like otherwise you'd HAVE to be connected to broadband and get good throughput 100% of the time you're playing. ...and where on the net does the extra performance come from?

  • *sigh* (Score:5, Funny)

    by Khaotix ( 229171 ) on Wednesday September 15, 2004 @04:23PM (#10260242)
    I swear if one more person posts something illustrating that they think bandwidth means internet connections I'll explo... *poof*

  • I have a PS/2 manual here (the one that's a million pages long) and it shows networking in a grid layout, with different symbols showing connection, no connection, broken connection, transferring data, no computer there, etc... is this what they mean by grid layout?

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