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PC Games (Games)

SimCity Trains Bad Urban Planners 62

Posted by Zonk from the games-are-not-reality dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The global eco tech blog Worldchanging has a post commenting on about how SimCity borks urban planner ideas of how cities really work in the real world." From the entry: "While some of Lobo & Schooler's complaints arise from the fact that SimCity is built as a game -- the "God Mode," for example -- most derive from inability to modify the underlying model, whether to include mixed-use development (the ground-floor commercial/upper-floor residential buildings which help to make dense urban environments livable), to vary the demand ratings for various services, to make pedestrian travel more acceptable, or to alter the efficiency and availability of renewable power generation."
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SimCity Trains Bad Urban Planners More

SimCity Trains Bad Urban Planners

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  • Get a Grip! (Score:5, Informative)

    by passthecrackpipe ( 598773 ) * <passthecrackpipe@@@hotmail...com> on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @11:50AM (#10898603)
    It's a game. It is as realistic as shooting evil devil-possessed demons on a martian base. It is not an urban-planning training tool, it's mild enternainment. This has as much credibility as extraterestrial rights campaigners complaining that Alf was lock in his room all the time and deprived of deeper socio-political stimulatory contact.

    The pople who actually use SimCity as part of any real life planning scenario should be sacked. And forbidden to work on anything, ever again.
    • evil devil-possessed demons is a little estreame. I'd say more like the WWII simulation games that have been comming out lately.

      While paint ball isn't like real combat its more closely related and used as a training aid better than Dungeons and Dragons.

      Just because it is a game doesn't mean it isn't an important learning tool, in my opinion, because it is a game makes it a very important learning tool. And if you are striving for as close to reality as possible, the game should reflect as close to reali
    • No, it's actually quite a bit more realistic then that. The logical extension of your black & white thinking is that only reality is realistic, thus negating any measure of what the entire concept of 'realistic' is all about.

      It is a toy, but toys can teach us many things, because their behaviors model something bigger then themselves. The author's point in this article is that while SimCity has valid potential as a teaching tool, it has certain important flaws that must be made abundantly clear. The

  • Damn (Score:5, Funny)

    by SilentChris ( 452960 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @11:50AM (#10898606) Homepage
    And here I was thinking that I could actually cause Godzilla to run through the city as New York's urban planner. *rolls eyes*

    This is sort of like saying "Mario has taught children to hate the environment as they now stomp on turtles." Patently absurd.
    • I don't know about that but I am a professional plumber and I got all my training by playing Super Mario Bros. 1 & 2.

      DISCLAIMER: I am not really a professional plumber and didn't learn any plumbing skills from playing those games. Don't sue me if you feel you wasted your time trying to learn plumbing by playing the Super Mario Bros series games.
    • New York City HAS an urban planner?

      Jeez, and I thought my job had a tradition of mediocrity.......
      • New York City HAS an urban planner?

        Jeez, and I thought my job had a tradition of mediocrity.......

        Uh, you don't build a city of 8 million people without planning. There's a reason all those people live here, and it's not because they have to. They haven't converted Manhattan to a gigantic prison island [theofficia...penter.com] yet!

        I recommend renting the PBS series "New York" for a bit of history of the planning of this city (it's a bit Manhattan-centric, and barely touches at all on the planning of the more populous outer b
    • You know that Godzilla is also a placeholder/symbol for unpredictable disasters like 9/11 in 2001. However off course its also to add more fun to the game.

      I never played the game but you have a lot of unpredictable problems that can happen such as riots, gas leak blowing up some buildings and terrorist attacks in real life.

      And yes its a game but so is war simulation that the pentagon uses in some ways.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) * on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @11:53AM (#10898640)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • No, W never figured out how to turn the computer on.
    • Not at all. By playing Civilization nonstop for the past 12 years, I have made myself by far the most appropriate candidate for world dictator. Now I'm just waiting for the world to see my obvious ability. Soon, all cities would be putting aside their current pettily wasteful activities and building a ship to go to Alpha Centauri.
    • I suddenly feel very bad about wiping out the persians in Civ 3 so I could get access to their precious oil reserves :(

  • So, by that logic... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Palshife ( 60519 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @11:58AM (#10898693) Homepage
    Halo doesn't properly instruct future supersoldiers
    Half-Life shows an unrealistic picture of the profession of a physics Ph.D.
    Battlefield 1942 misrepresents the look and feel of Wake Island

    I could go on.
    • Battlefield 1942 misrepresents the look and feel of Wake Island

      Actually that discrepancy is nowhere near as bad as the problems in Halo or Half-Life. The layout of the in-game Wake Island is nearly identical to the real one. The only differences are the vertical exaggeration, and the too-small runway sizes (the airstrip should take up almost a whole leg of the island, not just a bit at the apex)

  • It's not a game (Score:4, Insightful)

    by koi88 ( 640490 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:00PM (#10898714)

    (At least the original) Sim City was described by the developers as a toy, not a game, because you can't really win, but there are so many possibilities to play with it.

    Yes, I'm nitpicking. But it's true.
  • How tough is this - find an open source clone of SimCity and add your own rules. It's a game - why is it Will's fault that you're planning real life with it and real life doesn't work right? Come on, this is a non-story and those people are idiots.

  • FPS training bad mass murderers (Score:3, Funny)

    by MyLongNickName ( 822545 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:05PM (#10898795) Journal
    It disturbs me that games like the Doom series, Enemy Territory et all are training poor mass murderers. I mean in those games, you get to die and come right back in the game within a minute. They are also learning that you can go right out, work by yourself, and still whack tons of the enemy.

    Our young wanna be mass murderers are getting the wrong idea. We need more games that teach proper planning and team work. We need games that teach our youth to properly scout out locations... sometimes spending days getting to know the terrain. If indoors to search for alternate escape routes that must be blocked. We need to teach our youth how to work together to create the maximum body count. And we need to teach them that you don't get to come back once the police shoot you. Make the most of the one opportunity you get.

    I blame our game makers for our lack of good mass murderers.

  • Old story... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Phronesis ( 175966 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:11PM (#10898863)
    Actually, Paul Starr made the same basic complaints about the assumptions hidden in the underlying model of SimCity in a 1994 in The American Prospect, "The Seductions of Sim [princeton.edu]."

  • Revenge! (Score:3, Funny)

    by daeley ( 126313 ) * on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:15PM (#10898918) Homepage
    Enraged SimCity players around the globe respond to Lobo & Schooler by reaching menacingly for the bulldozer tool...
  • A German company, Glamus GmbH, together with the Weimar Bauhaus University and the traffic research department of DaimlerChrysler, created a game called 'Mobility', which does the simcity thing but really focuses on, well, mobility. English website [mobility-online.de]

  • Floor-level Resolution In SimCity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DLWormwood ( 154934 ) <wormwood@meCOMMA.com minus punct> on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:19PM (#10898983) Homepage
    whether to include mixed-use development (the ground-floor commercial/upper-floor residential buildings which help to make dense urban environments livable)

    I'd hate to see the UI micromanagement needed to roll this functionality into SimCity. A separate game, SimTower (and it's unofficial sequel, Yoot Tower [the-underdogs.org]), was made that experimented with the concept, however.

    • Why not just have custom zoning types where you can check off uses (retail, office, restaurant, residential, etc) and set use ratios and maximum heights. Set 4 story height, 75% residential, and 25% commercial, and let the free market dictate (almost noone wants to live on the ground floor).

      It'd also be neat to be able to designate streets with HOV lanes, pedestrian/cyclist avenues, or bus-only routes ala Curibita.
      • Why not just have custom zoning types where you can check off uses (retail, office, restaurant, residential, etc) and set use ratios and maximum heights.

        At this point, you might as well ask about why there are zones at all... The mildly artificial constraint on single-purpose zoning I think is to force the player to make design compromises and engauge in deeper thought about the problems of real estate contention, besides the simplifed UI. Allowing arbitrary "percentile" zones will just lead to lazy playe

        • At this point, you might as well ask about why there are zones at all...

          Because that's what city planners do.

          ...lazy players setting the whole downtown area of a city to a monolithic "megazone" of identical parameters.

          That wouldn't be much fun, would it? In a game with no points, there's no point in doing something that's not fun.

          • Because that's what city planners do.

            That wouldn't be much fun, would it? In a game with no points, there's no point in doing something that's not fun.

            When real world city planners zone property, they don't give vague percentages and "let the market decide" utilization. They usually set up some form of bureaucracy that requires each building modification or change of use to go through some permit and approval process. I doubt that would make for much of a fun game. (Though Douglas Adams did try [infocom-if.org] once.)

  • I'd rather have my urban planners trying to simulate real-world consequences of their actions instead of pulling a Soviet-style "The people need to woek harder to meet our expectations" kind of approach urban planners tend to prefer.
  • This blog entry is more a statement that SimCity is not an accurate model for city planning, not an assault on its legitmacy as a form of entertainment. Its a good game but a poor design tool. Imagine Civil Engineers who design their bridges in Pontifex and you might understand the outrage.

  • Agreed it's entertainment, but... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Fallen Andy ( 795676 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:27PM (#10899087)
    I live in Athens Greece, which must rank as one of the er less desirable high density population areas
    in terms of green area (at least in Europe). But, if you pick the right place (like where I am now - no don't ask) it's pretty good even for a convinced ruralite like myself (from East Anglia UK).

    Mixed business and accomodation keeps a city centre vibrant and alive. The alternative - seen widely in my homeland (the UK) is desolate wastelands filled with security cameras and muggers. This morning, I could have picked from
    at least 5 or 6 bakeries within walking distance for my breakfast (yummy fresh bread). Actually,
    I know which one I go to because I end up debating
    football (soccer to you US people) before returning to the office... Life. Get one!
    (no money here though).

    Funny thing here. Nobody worries about muggers or rapists here. It (mostly) doesn't happen.

    I wish urban planners would look more carefully at the mediterranean model. Just like diet, it seems to work (albeit sometimes painfully slowly for my tastes).

    I can't blame games designers for designing games based on their local cultural predujices. But, I wish we could find ones that tell the whole story.
    (Hint: Small pockets of the US aren't the US, let
    alone the rest of the world).

    Anybody who thinks we are living in some sort of paradise here, please note - it isn't. (Don't ever
    expect to actually get paid for that work you did).

    But the bread makes it all worthwhile (crunch, crunch).

    Best wishes from
    not so sunny (rather cold at the moment)
    Athens Greece.

    Andy Allen.

  • I hope SimCity 5 includes.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by MachDelta ( 704883 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:30PM (#10899146)
    ...a Cluestick in the box. So these people can beat themselves over the fucking head with it.

  • People can suspend reality. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by newrisejohn ( 517586 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @12:38PM (#10899270)

    I am in a graduate planning program and I love playing SimCity. I don't think that the game has an effect on how I approach planning. I feel the exact opposite has occurred: I find myself hating aspects of the game that fail to reflect reality. The summary notes the lack of mixed use development. The game also fails in trip generation, physics, and connectivity. Despite its flaws, it's a fun diversion, so I play it.

    I think that the "bad planners" that learn from SimCity might be those in muncipalities that do nothing but zoning; when a town relies on zoning without a comprehensive plan, design ordinance or any other form of "planning" you are left with the suburban sprawl and commercial strip development that plagues the American landscape. We need a revival of the City Beautiful movement, which some believe can be found in New Urbanism.

    • "We need a revival of the City Beautiful movement, which some believe can be found in New Urbanism."


      That's a terrible idea. Whatever majestic metropolis our youthful Chicago architects will build will only go up in flames.
      • Agreed. new urbanism is just new suburbanism. The proofs of concept are culturally specific gobs of evil. You can't possibly plan a community in the style of new urbanism that I will like because it is exactly what I don't like. But whatever, as long as they build a nice big tower where I can sit and look down on everyone else, where I won't be bothered to join anyone's bbq, then I'll be happy.

        • No man is an island. Without the sense of community that is incorporated into New Urbanism (which is actually "Old New England Towns"), we'll all become dark-eyed, soulless motorists living in our Broadacres hell, never knowing our neighbors, never allowing our children to play with others, hiding in fear of the "others" that we pass on the street but never acknowledge.

          I know neighbors can be a pain. Live in student housing and you'll discover that quickly. However, without neighbors, you'll never make t

          • ::sigh::

            Ah the connections *you* need in life. Not me sir. Want to know how I do it? I bet you do, but you won't admit it. Like I said, the community built around community is exactly the kind I don't want. And I don't fear others so much as find them depressing.

            • You're either rich, and live in a gated "community" or you're poor and living the rural green acres life. (Either way, you probably voted Bush.)

              The rest of us survive by making connections and friends and living in a social environment.

              Of course you're neighbors are going to be depressing. Try going to Wal-Mart on a weekday afternoon. The poor, working irregular shifts come there to make some purchases. You can find some truly depressing sights there. You sound like you don't live like them (nor want to),

              • You are wrong and I've said too much already.
              • I don't know about you or about the person that you responded to, but *I* survive by being close to work, close to ammenities, and close to the retailers I need (food, mostly). Everything else is just there and doesn't impact me at all. I hate my neighbours and I hate the people in my neighbourhood.

                You don't need a forced community to make a living. You can find many connections and social interaction in other aspects of life... *gasp* maybe even outside of your neighbourhood (at a show, at work/school,

      • Architects nowadays don't plan for people. They plan for "hey, I bet you I can do this with steel!" See Frank Gehry for more information.

  • I Only Played As Far As 2000 (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ReciprocityProject ( 668218 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @01:53PM (#10900194) Homepage Journal
    mixed-use development (the ground-floor commercial/upper-floor residential buildings which help to make dense urban environments livable)

    Use closely packed alternating residential and commercial zones to achive the same effect. Sims will effectively walk next door.

    to vary the demand ratings for various services

    Even a dictator can't change what people want, but there are some resolutions you can ennact to encourage or discourage tourism, or tech industry, for example.

    To make pedestrian travel more acceptable Use closely packed R and C zones. Nothing you can do about industrial polution -- ever lived downwind from a fish processing plant? Even a small one, family owned one?

    or to alter the efficiency and availability of renewable power generation

    High altitudes have more wind, less cloudy days have more sunlight, otherwise that ability doesn't exist in the real world either.

    It comes down to this: You can't change reality in the real world either. Sim Cities are already dictatorships (Although I think it would be more realisitc if they let you build a berlin-style wall). But, Sim City is designed to make you deal with the real world and yet you can still build eco-friendly cities if you grow them slowly, spending most of your funding on quality-of-life things like parks, mass transit, and police stations. The Maxis people understood this and wrote about it in the manual when they wrote the first version (which I also played).

    The one irritating thing is that sims aren't willing to commute nearly as far as real people (they should be willing to drive farther). Also, it doesn't simulate how difficult it is to find parking in downtown areas with very high land values (high property values should encourge sims to use mass transit).

    In conclusion, if man's natural instinct in Sim City is to mindlessly CONSUME EXPAND and DESTROY, maybe that is just man's instinct period.

  • really work in the real world. Here's a fucking idea, lets use something that was meant to teach urban planning instead of a game that was meant for entertainment.

  • Indiana Jones Trains Bad Archaeologists (Score:3, Funny)

    by superultra ( 670002 ) on Tuesday November 23, 2004 @02:18PM (#10900598) Homepage
    "It is a movie, of course, but it also presents a very unrealistic picture of archaeology. There are only so many Nazis left in the world to reclaim stolen artifacts from. Doing so takes years of training and delivering papers at conferences. Even established archaelogists rarely use a whip. Archaelogists spend far more time annoying businesses for building on grave sites than they do wearing a fedora. Also, Jones never sucks up to mentors or leaders in the field. How did he ever get a tenure track position at a leading university as the movie portrays without sniffing academic ass?

    The image of Indiana Jones has gravely hurt the field of archaeology, and whether it will ever fully recover remains to be seen."
  • I like to run Sim-City in Libertarian mode, where you just turn it on and watch the city thrive all by itself.

  • Not so much planners but regular folk (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm a planner, and at first glance the notion that Sim City affects the way we work seems silly. For one thing, nobody has that much control over the building of a community. It is a game, it is fun, but planners generally are more knowledgeable about reality (I hope).

    The worry, if any, should be over non-planners taking the assumptions in the game to heart. Dealing with the public, there are a wide variety of assumptions out there about how planning works, and ideas on how it should work. Get enough p
  • Does SimCity produce poor planners? Yes. Most definitely. It uses models from the late 1800's and the early 1900's for its design.

    Yes, I know it is just a game, but tell me this, after playing the game for a while, didn't you start to asses your own city/town based on the judgements you would have made if you developed it?

    If you really want to learn all you can about city planning, there is only one book you need to read:
    The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs
    http://www.amazon.com/ [amazon.com]
    • >Yes, I know it is just a game, but tell me this, after playing the game for a while, didn't you start to asses your own city/town based on the judgements you would have made if you developed it?

      No.

    • Even if you don't care about city planning or SimCity, you should still read this book. Want to know why big box stores are bad? Want to know about how to win the war against cars? Want to know how to fix a slum?

      Based on this review, it sounds like Jacobs has the same neoliberal claptrap most city designers read before they decide to interfere with other folks free use of their property. Let's guess: big block stores are bad because they bring goods and services at a lower price to the plebs? We win the

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