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Businesses Entertainment Games

Game Retailers to Have a Good Holiday Season 125

Posted by Zonk from the ya-think? dept.
A story is up at the NYT (registration required) regarding this year's holiday sales, an interview with the President of Electronics Boutique. From the article: "Q. Are consumers spending as much this holiday shopping season? Wal-Mart says they're spending less. A. Based upon what we saw over the weekend and what we've seen for the month of November, I'd have to say that, at least on video games, they're spending a lot more. I do think the category is going to have a strong holiday season." I know it's a small thing, but the staff writer refers to Mario as a "construction worker". Could have done some more research there, sport.
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Game Retailers to Have a Good Holiday Season More

Game Retailers to Have a Good Holiday Season

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  • Mario is now a construction worker (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    His plumbing job was outsourced to India.

  • Wrecking Crew (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EddieBurkett ( 614927 ) on Monday December 06, 2004 @04:44PM (#11010452)
    Mario was a construction worker in the NES game Wrecking Crew. Given that Mario has done way more than just his plumbing of late (cart driver, golfer, tennis player, etc.), is it right to still pigeon hole him as a plumber?

    • Re:Wrecking Crew (Score:4, Informative)

      by Monthenor ( 42511 ) <monthenor&gogeek,org> on Monday December 06, 2004 @04:52PM (#11010537) Homepage
      On top of that, Mario was originally (circa Donkey Kong) concepted as a carpenter. It wasn't until Mario Bros/Super Mario Bros that the plumber image took hold.

      The article writer is obviously too old-school for Zonk ;)

      • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday December 06, 2004 @05:41PM (#11011031)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Interestingly enough, the name "Mario" was taken from some landlord that someone from Nintendo knew. The landlord looked similar to Jumpman because of the mustache (and that was only added to make him easier to draw). So I guess he's a landlord too...

          Anyway, if there's one thing common with most Mario games, it's the abundance of pipes, not to mention the overly fashionable overalls. So, he's a plumber.

          Plus that... er... wonderful movie billed him as a plumber, so that clinches it.
    • Given his variety of roles -- plumber (most games he's in), construction worker (the deeply underrated Wrecking Crew), general man-about-the-construction-site (Donkey Kong) -- maybe it would have been better to refer to him as a general contractor...
  • Mario was a construction worker in Donkey Kong, wasn't he? He was certaintly running around a construction site.

    • Re:First Job (Score:2, Interesting)

      by KDR_11k ( 778916 )
      The texts I read referred to him as either a carpenter or a zoo keeper in DK. Apparently Nintendo itself wasn't too sure about that or their branches (NoA/NoE) don't agree on the subject.

    • Re:First Job (Score:2, Informative)

      by eikonoklastes ( 530797 )
      Back then he was just Jumpman.
      And he was labeled a "workman", so why not go ahead an call him a construction worker?
    • Many peoples' first job is a burger jockey, is it right to label them burger jockies for the rest of their life?
    • wasnt he also a fumigator in donkey kong 3? or was that a distant relative or something?

  • First there's news about how young people are using this new fang-dangled thing called the internet, now people are buying games at Christmas? I wonder what the connection between companies releasing huge titles, people buying tons of gifts for people who like games, and the fact that games are being sold at a greater rate, is. I really don't know.... anyone else?
    • I don't know what the connection is, but when the guy at GameStop told me "No, we're out of PS2's. In fact, the only console new or used we have left is a new X-Box. Do you wanna buy an X-Box?" I laughed wholeheartedly in his face. Also, I knew that sales were up this year.
  • This holiday season seems to have an abundance of good games being released: HL2, WOW, Metroid 2, Pirates!, KOTOR2, etc.

    IMO that's the reason for the increased sales.......
    • As video games become more mainstream, and Microsoft's push to have a 'media center pc' that can do almost everything including playing games (I'm thinking of the future, bare with me) more people are going to spend more money on games, than on for example CD's or DVDs. I for one would rather play a great PC or console game that sit in front of the TV for a couple hours. This isn't true for everyone yet, but like I said, it is a growing trend.(See multiple previous /. stories about lower audiences for tel
    • So far I bought a number of PS2, PC games. But there are TOO MANY games, I can't play them all. Like most people, I'll wait till they get in the bargin bin. Why must every company release games at the same freaking time. You release a mega hit in June, NO ONE will wait till Christmas to buy it, everyone will buy it now.

      1.) GTA san andreas
      2.) smackdown vs raw
      3.) Call of Duty united offensive
      4.) ESPN NBA2k5
      5.) x-men legends

      • You both forgot DOOM3, another great reason for high video game sales. And the new Prince of Persia.

        And my hard-earned dollars will be buying myself a new Grand Turismo 4 come mid-December.

        People have been waiting YEARS for these games to come out. Next year will probably be a lot softer on video game sales.

        Unless of course Civilization 4 comes out :) (here's hoping)
    • That you aren't buying any of those stupid EA games. Holiday Boycott!!!
    • Well, that's not all. It wouldn't explain the extreme shortage of both new and used consoles, just the shortage of those games. I think we can also pin it on the consoles being priced lower than ever, and that they all have games that would compel a person to buy a system. (Don't flame me over this... I'm saying that all three have good points and large audiences, I'm not saying you have to like all three.)
  • In the first Mario game I ever owned [miniarcade.com] he worked at a cement factory so I'd say construction worker is close enough. If "construction worker" was wrong, what was the answer that you were expecting?
  • Back in the 'Donkey Kong' days, he was a construction worker. When 'Mario Brothers' was released, he and Luigi became plumbers at that point.

  • For a while people were posting links to NYT articles that didn't require registration using some kind of partner link. Does anyone know if this still works and how it was done? I tried reading the article off of Google News but couldn't because it only lets you read the first page.

  • walmart? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by WarpedCowOwnzMe ( 820300 )
    How many of us buy games at wal-mart? How many of us avoid wal-mart at all costs?

    • Re:walmart? (Score:2, Funny)

      by tholomyes ( 610627 )
      I avoided it at all costs, until it was the only place left in town with a copy of World of Warcraft.
    • Wal-Mart charges more for games than most stores. So, no, I don't buy any games there.
      • About your sig: Yeah, I've noticed that one of the Flash ads actually caused a popup in Firefox. (the IT Product Guide one, I think) That seems to be an Achilles heel in its popup blocker, as it can't distinguish between a non-initiated command to open a new window, and one that was done on mouseclick, deep within the Flash script.

        The Strongbad Email, Virus, actually demonstrates this in the "Click on the Monkey" part. Surprisingly, nothing happens on unpatched IE 6.
      • Funny, here they charge LESS than Best Buy, EB, GameStop, and Circuit City for new games.

        Granted, the difference is along the lines of 12-40 cents, but its still less. Of course, they're selection is even worse than BB (who have a miserable selection at that), so the piddly savings isn't worth it.
        • Funny, here they charge LESS than Best Buy, EB, GameStop, and Circuit City for new games.

          Might come from the savings earned from breaking unions in the midst of the stores to keep payroll down.

    • Does Wal-Mart still sell censored music and video games? I remember some clout about them selling a censored version of Need for Speed 3 back in 1998.
    • I don't buy games there, but I don't avoid them. I usually buy games used at EB once their price falls to a reasonable level. Wal-Mart is a decent store. They don't have good prices like they did before the advent of the super-center, but they are close to the house and they are open 24/7 (which is very important to someone with an infant and before that a pregnant wife).
    • I buy old games at wal-mart, they end up being pretty cheap. Most everything else is purchased at my local gamestop. As my only reputable local retailer of used game hardware (game crazy is on crack, their prices are consistently high) I like to keep them in business when possible.
    • Well, when you decide you need a game and you need it now, and you look at the clock and it says 1:30AM, your choices are very limited.
  • Why do most Americans use the word "holiday" instead of "Christmas"?

    I am genuinely intrigued!

    • I would say generally to avoid offending those who may not share beliefs; Christmas is a particularly religious holiday at its core.

      • Re:Query (Score:2, Insightful)

        by dhakbar ( 783117 )
        Actually, Christ himself asked his followers to celebrate his death, not his life.

        Thusly, Christmas shouldn't even be religiously observed. Easter is the ultimate holiday in Christianity.

    • you serious? (Score:1, Flamebait)

      by IshanCaspian ( 625325 )
      This seems like such common knowledge that I'd suspect a troll, but it doesn't sound like it at all.

      Anyways, they use the word "holidy" to indicate other religions that have Christmas rip-off holidays, such as Judaism and so forth.

      • Re:you serious? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Goobermunch ( 771199 )
        Right.

        Rip-offs.

        Like Hanukkah.

        Which celebrates events that took place in 165 B.C.E.

        Rip-offs.

        --AC

        • Re:you serious? (Score:2, Insightful)

          by dhakbar ( 783117 )
          I believe the parent was referring to Hanukkah as a rip-off holiday because it has become a reason to buy and give gifts for Jews, since they didn't want to celebrate Christmas.

          If he wasn't referring to their similarity in rampant consumerism, he's just a dumbass.

          • Re:you serious? (Score:1, Funny)

            by Anonymous Coward
            Or a fairly good troll. That reply made me chuckle. :)

          • Re:you serious? (Score:3, Interesting)

            by BTWR ( 540147 )
            actually, it's a chicken-and-egg problem with no solution...

            As someone in this thread correctly pointed out, Hanukkah has been celebrated since 165 B.C.E. when the events took place. As is customary in Jewish holidays celebrating happy events like this, there are "fun" customs. For example, in the case of "Purim" (where Jews celebrate liberation from a tyrant in Persia who wanted to kill all Jews - it's the story of the bible book "Esther"), they celebrate this happy occation by dressing up in costumes an

            • Not to mention that Hanukkah is a bit overplayed just because it comes within the same time as Christmas.

              I'm not a Jew, but isn't Passover traditionally considered more of a major holiday? Or is it Yom Kippur?
              • Yes, Hanukkah is a "minor" holiday in terms of religious "importance" - you are correct that both Passover and Yom Kippur are more "important" holidays. In fact, it's one of the only jewish holidays to not be in the Hebrew Bible (ironically, only the Catholic Bible has it - Macabbees I-IV).
        • Speaking as the son of a Rabbi, the rip-offs thing is correct. Gift giving was a creative "reinterpretation" of older customs in order to lead to fewer angry Jewish kids who want presents too. There is no mention of presents in the actual story whatsoever.
          • Actually, the Christmas gift-giving tradition is relatively new as well (according to some Western Studies class I more or less slept through). It only dates back about 150-200 years (not far, in the scope of religion), and originally kids made gifts for their parents while their parents gave them things like candy. Giving gifts to kids wasn't very widespread in the US until the early 1900's, when toy companies decided that this would be a great way to boost profits.

            But anyway, it's pretty mute, as the
      • Common knowledge in the US, perhaps, but I'm not in the US.

    • Re:Query (Score:2, Funny)

      by generic-man ( 33649 )
      We do that to avoid offending Jews, Muslims, atheists, and other non-Christians.

      Inspired by an episode of the TV show "The OC," you can even buy Chrismukkah [chrismukkah.com] cards to celebrate a more interfaith holiday than plain old Christmas or Chanukah.

    • Re:Query (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "Enjoy the holidays" blankets a few major religions, older ones, and one New Year. I like it better than saying, "Merry Xmas and happy New Year!", "Happy Channukah! Happy New Year! (and again at a later date) Happy New Year!", and "Happy Kwanzaa! Happy New Year!". Not to mention all the Happy Saturnalias, Happy Winter Solstices, and Happy Yules that I greet people with already.
      • On a related note, when did the latinization of Hannukah metamorphose into Channukah? I see that everywhere, but I don't remember when it changed. Did I miss a memo?

        The same goes for many Chinese names - like how people now seem to be referring to Mao Tse Tsung as Mao Zedong.
        • Technically, the holiday is called (chet) (nun) (vav) (kaf) (hay) in Hebrew (see the Hebrew alphabet [everything2.com] for info on how to write the letters). Hannukah, Hanukkah, Chanukah, Chanuka, etc., are all transliterations. The first letter is pronounced like a guttural H that is usually written "ch" in German and Welsh.

          Any Middle Eastern or Asian language (or any language not written in ASCII-friendly letters, for that matter) has a whole bunch of transliteration methods. It's up to each writer/editor to pick one a
    • Ever hear of Hanukkah? I'm sure there are others as well.
    • I've always just assumed it was a way to lump in all the *days that are flying around this time of year. The "Holiday Season" includes everything from Thanksgiving through New Years depending on how you look at it, and for most of us salaried folk represents the time of year we get the most "paid holidays."

      It's usually not referred to as just "holiday" but usually "the holidays," meaning inclusive of all of them. It also features my birthday, my girlfriend's birthday, my dad's birthday, my mother's birt

    • Re:Query (Score:3, Funny)

      by Quikah ( 14419 )
      Because it is easier than saying Chrismahanukwanzakah (props to Virgin mobile for this rather amusing ad campaign).

    • Re:Query (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Belgand ( 14099 )
      As others have stated this is a pretty holiday-heavy time of year for Americans. First off are our two non-religious ones that bookend it: Thanksgiving and New Year's. This makes the holiday season roughly November-January (or to those complaining about it it starts the day after Halloween when retailers start pushing for the next big holiday). In between you've got a big mess of religious, pseudo-religious, psuedo-secular and largely obsolete holidays: Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa (a recent holiday created
      • First off are our two non-religious ones that bookend it: Thanksgiving and New Year's

        Thanksgiving is religious. It is when the Pilgrims had a feast to thank God.

        • I thought thanksgiving was about indians killing pilgrims?

          but then... I got that info from the Addams Family movie...

          • I thought thanksgiving was about indians killing pilgrims?

            Close enough, it was to thank the local natives for helping the settlers survive. In order to really thank them, however, it was necessary to take away their nation and herd them into camps.

      • Wow, I notice most people rattling off the holidays in December, but no one's mentioned Yule/Jol (wish Linux had a character map for accented characters!).

        Sure, "Yuletide" was co-opted to be synonymous with Xmas, but it's the best PART of Xmas! That's where you get your decorating evergreen trees and festive sparklies and misteltoe and all sorts of other goodness. The year is over! Here's to hoping we make it through another winter!
    • I bought my girlfriend games for Hannukah. I bought my roomate a game for Christmas. It's just quicker to say "holiday."

  • okay, okay.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Zonk ( 12082 ) on Monday December 06, 2004 @05:16PM (#11010764) Homepage Journal
    I'll conceed he was originally a construction worker.

    However, in my defense:
    Yo, yo! /
    It's the Mario Brothers /
    And plumbin's their game /
    Found the secret warp zone /
    While working on the drain /
    Lend the princess a hand /
    In the Mushroom Land /
    Comin' atcha with the plumbers /
    You'll be hooked on the brothers!"

  • Skewed data (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SilentJ_PDX ( 559136 ) on Monday December 06, 2004 @05:49PM (#11011138) Homepage
    Considering that the year's two most-anticipated games and a new hardware system were released in November, I'd say the November data is a bit skewed.

    It's normal for big releases to come out in November but I think Halo 2 and Half Life 2 are special cases.
    • With respects to Half Life 2, perhaps it is the combination of being a highly anticipated game as well as the difficulty of pirating the game thanks to the infernal 'Steam'.

      Steam indirectly aiding Walmart?
      • Steam indirectly aiding Walmart?

        Well, HL 2 etal probably aren't helping WalMart too much since they are reporting less than spectacular holiday sales so far. So the great HL 2 and Halo 2 sales aren't enough to compensate for the stuff they aren't selling I guess. Of course I won't be crying for them since I'm not too wild about WalMart's labor practices and penchant for censoring games, music, books, and magazines they don't think I should be able to buy. So with all of that, I generally choose to buy gam
        • Besides, one of the great successes of Steam was the fact that many gamers bypassed retail altogether and bought Half Life 2 via Steam. That is the true threat to retailers like WalMart.

          Very good point. I'd love to know if there were any statistics regarding the amount of people that bought Half Life 2 via Steam? That'd be a great study, and I'm sure other corporations are investigating that avenue of selling products.
      • Difficulty in pirating HL2? Where have you been? There have been several releases of the game (by EMPORiO and VENGEANCE) that run perfectly without steam and no network connection. With the hl2dm updates you can even play online on legit server without a cdkey thanks to the steam emulator that someone wrote. In fact the people that pirated the game just sat back and played it without any of those steam headaches that everyone who shelled out cash for it had to suffer through.

        HL2 has been no harder than
    • It's normal for big releases to come out in November but I think Halo 2 and Half Life 2 are special cases.

      Not to mention World of Warcraft and Everquest II. Between those four games, you've pretty well covered the two big genres - Role-play/MMORPGS and FPSers.

  • It's the cost of fuel (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LordNimon ( 85072 ) on Monday December 06, 2004 @07:05PM (#11011872)
    I read an article about this somewhere, but unfortunately I can't quote it now. The vast majority of Wal-mart customers are low-income. They spend all of their income on day-to-day expenses, with very little left over for "luxury" purchases. The price of fuel is really hurting them, apparently. When fuel gets more expensive, it directly affects their bottom line. And because a large chunk of their purchases come from Walmart, there's a direct connection.

    For everyone else, the price of fuel is insignificant. I make decent money, and my family drives two fuel-efficient cars. The cost of gasoline could double and I wouldn't even notice it. People like me are much more likely to buy video games than the average Wal-mart customer, and so the price of fuel does not affect my spending habits.

    • Also the cost of food has risen, so combined with the fuel cost rise and without a coresponding rise in wages, discretionary spending has to fall.

      Ok, it doesn't have to, as the average american does have a substantial credit card debt, but that's another story.
    • My sister is the manager of the electronics department of the local WalMart. I showed her this headline (neither one of us RTFA'd.)

      Anyway...she says that video games are doing really well at her Walmart, however, electronics in general are doing poorly. So, even though the videogames are up, the overall department is down.

      She believes there are two reasons for the down-trend.

      One, there isn't any new technology in the lower price ranges. You have the same old DVD players and CTR TV's that you had last
      • That and the fact that if people have more money, maybe they are going some place other than Walmart. My wife and I grocery shop at our local Walmart (on of the 5 Hypermart-pilot stores that became Super Walmart), but when we're buying something for the house, we sometimes prefer a bit better quality than the average Walmart items, unless the budget says no.
    • You don't know a thing about Walmarts demographics.
      Walmart does a good job of hitting all salary ranges with most of it coming from middle income, very little from low income. Go read thier yearly report for info.
      What hurt walmart in November has been widly documented, they only had increase sales of .7% instead of the estimated 2-4% which is the reason they are saying they had poor sales, and it was that they decided this year to not a huge amount of sales on black friday. This hurt walk in traffic as

  • Bad for the (sorta)little guys, though. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Spleener12 ( 587422 ) * on Monday December 06, 2004 @07:21PM (#11011962)
    Sure, game retailers are all seeing big profits, but the people in the games industry that might be seeing less-than-average profits this year are the video game companies that are not Microsoft, Nintendo, Konami, Rockstar, Valve, or Blizzard- ie anyone who is not releasing one of the HUGE titles this season. Joe Average Buyer will be more drawn to the games that have been receiving ridiculous amounts of hype than the ones that haven't (but are still just as worthy of a buy.)
    • I only buy hype games because I consider most others not worthy of a buy, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Most people I know don't buy the no name game that 'looks' good, becuse in the end it's not usually the same thing. Hyped games are mostly hyped for a reason, unless they turn out to be a big fiasco.
    • Blizzard? Worlds of Warcraft sold like cup-cakes. Valve? Half-Life 2 was snatched off the shelves faster than you can say saskatoon. Rockstar? GTA4 was car-jacked by a shitload of people. Nintendo? The DS was sold out, Metroid Prime 2, Paper Mario 2 and Mario 64 DS all had excellent sales. Konami's Metal Gear Solid 3 also had friggin' good sales.

      Now, if you chose Ubisoft (Prince of Persia), or Namco (Baten Kaitos) , or Capcom (Viewtiful Joe 2), maybe you'd have a point. But the examples you chose were sor

    • Actually, Joe Average Buyer either (a) isn't "in the know" and makes his/her decisioin based on recommendations from the store clerk (because they haven't heard the hype at all), or (b) is following a Christmas list written by their kid. This is actually one of the big problems for the ESA/ESRB. During the holiday season, a lot of parents buy games without actually knowing what they are, and then get really apalled when they see what their kids are playing.
    • Releasing your company's flagship title/game during October-December of 2004 is utter idiocy. Games are art, and they also technology, but they are mostly entertainment, which means that they Are A Business. Part of business is marketing. Making a decision to release a game to compete with Half-Life 2 or Halo 2 or MGS3 or GTA:SA is pretty stupid. If you look at movie studios, they are very smart about releasing their entertainment so as to not compete against the big heavy hitters (Star Wars, Matrix, Spider

  • Not playstation.com, I hope. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mh101 ( 620659 ) on Monday December 06, 2004 @09:34PM (#11013221)
    I just placed my first - and last - order on playstation.com. I only ordered from them in the first place, because they were the only place I could find the particular games I was looking for, which were for a Christmas present.

    Well, rather than receiving my order, I received a pair of emails stating that my credit refund had been processed. When I asked why I was getting a refund, I was told that they had received my return, so I they were refunding the order - but I wasn't informed about any refund on the shipping.

    Of course, I knew I hadn't returned the order, since I didn't even receive it to begin with. Obviously they must have shipped it to the wrong address, and it got refused on delivery. I double-checked the order's details, and I indeed got the shipping information correctly so it's their shippers at fault. But, rather than resend my order, I was politely informed that I need to place a new order - no mention about receiving a refund on shipping, or any special code to enter to not pay shipping on the new order.

    Needless to say, I have no intention of ordering from Playstation.com in the future, and informed them that I would warn everyone I know not to order from them. I told them that if they can't either resend my order, without me having to place a new order myself and pay for shipping twice, or refund me for the shipping on the order I never received, I would call up Visa and have them cancel the transaction. Now to wait for their response.
    • Quit whining and call your credit card company, dispute the charge, and be done with it. You will never pay them that money. Why spend all that time talking to a brick wall at playstation.com? You asked them for the full credit and they refused. That is all you have to do before contesting the charge with the credit card company. You are better off putting the hassle back on them than to deal with it yourself.
  • And worn out over-worked employees. Well, at least from my laid off ass it is. Thanks corporate Eb Games, for laying me off weeks before the holidays start, because you didn't have the hours. You make no sense in doing so, as this year is the year of the sequel. The games this year are going to sell like hot cakes, and frankly, i'm a bit, no, im very disappointed in your move to lay me off. I for one, need the job. I dont make the "big bucks" like you corporate clowns down. I cannot get laid off before the
    • Sorry to hear about the layoff. Especially around the holidays.

      this year is the year of the sequel

      Umm, hasn't every year since about 2000 been the "year of the Sequel?" with only 1 or 2 "big new games" that aren't part of an existing franchise?
      • True, true. But I think it's truly the year of the sequel if we look at what games are coming out. GTA:SA, Halo 2, HL2, Doom 3, etc. etc. Just so many big titled sequels, is what I meant to mean.

        Thanks for the good comment =]
    • What exactly was your position with the company? It seems fish that any retailer would lay off an employee unwarranted unless they were easily replaceable (don't take that the wrong way...). I know that a lot of my employees (I work for another video game retailer that is not EB Games; wild guesses welcome) aren't getting the hours I'd like to give them because of the massive amount of holiday help the company has required me to hire.

      But maybe EB games works differently and they did off you because someon

      • Id like to say thanks for the good comment, guess I haven't seen many of them here sometimes =\. Anyways, apparently they didnt want me as an employee because they couldnt pay the store to keep me employed. And I heard that the store used up too many hours already this year. But the issue I have with it is all the big name titles. We do 12am releases on Tuesday mornings, we do longer hours for the DS or GTA:SA etc. So it makes no sense ot me why they would want to cut those hours down, or not add more hours
  • Working in the Electronics Dept. rather often, I can say that sales could be a LOT better if we could actually keep stuff in stock. I can't think of how many times I've had to say no to PS2s, Xboxes, GB-DS, and almost all of the digital cameras that we sell. It's quite frustrating, actually. I could see another 10%-25% more sales there, if only we stocked the items.
    • I agree with you! When I worked at EBX we never had new PS2s or XBOX's, and only were able to take 230 or so DS preorders. We had GBA-SPs, and 1 or 2 new PStwos, but those were gone and sold, and returned because they didnt work with some things.

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