Follow Slashdot stories on Twitter

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Businesses Editorial Entertainment Games

Death to the Fanboy Press 71

Posted by Zonk from the we-haven't-been-14-years-olds-for-quite-a-while dept.
Kotaku has yet more commentary on the gaming press, where Brian Crecente complains about the childish nature of gaming magazine coverage. This commentary is based on an IGDA commentary piece by Matthew Sakey about the sad state of adult-oriented gaming press. From the article: "What about the magazine did I like the least? Maybe it was the jet lag, but I answered truthfully: 'Sometimes I think your magazine acts too childish. I could do without the stuffed animals and Godzilla jokes and Nerf gun battle pictorials. I'd rather see more in-depth coverage of gaming trends and the ideas that games produce, and less obsession with technology. If we want games treated as a hobby that's as much for adults as children, then we should act more adult. Fun, but grown-up.' This answer pleased them not, and in retrospect it occurs to me that had I shown a bit more tact - for which I am admittedly not famous - I might have gotten the job."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Death to the Fanboy Press More

Death to the Fanboy Press

Comments Filter:

  • Too unreadable (Score:2, Insightful)

    by AtariAmarok ( 451306 )
    The magazines are too unreadable due to very poor graphic design. They are overwrought to the point where they make "Wired" look like "The New York Times" [registration required]. Too much white/orange/dark-green/etc on black ink.

  • Edge Magazine (Score:3, Interesting)

    by david.given ( 6740 ) <dg@cowlark.com> on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @11:47AM (#11396627) Homepage Journal
    Edge Magazine [edge-online.co.uk] is a fun but serious gaming magazine for, like, actual adults. Reading it is a rather odd experience. It has articles that are interesting and which you find yourself thinking about.

    It's a bit sad that this comes across as being unusual these days.

    • I agree. Even the old stalwarts have slipped (I picked up a copy of PCFormat a couple of months ago *shudder*). Edge is good, but I tend to prefer the oh-so-similar Game(tm) magazine. But only just.
      • Games(tm) has the depth of Edge, but without taking it all quite so seriously. It reminds me of the short-lived Arcade in that respect. These are all UK mags, but you can pick up games(tm) at Borders, along with the awesome niche mag Retro Gamer.
        • Crap I hit submit too soon.

          Anyway, Edge [edge-online.co.uk], which actually isn't at Borders, is still the godfather of serious, hardcore and well designed, game mags. If you've never seen it, it's well worth the $80 US subscription rate!

    • Yeah, Edge is often interesting, but more often it's writers are too busy frothing over press release hyperbole, spinning PR bull and mega-mega-ultra-alpha release mocked-up screen shots into "The Next Big Thing"(tm)

      More often than not, these games end up being run-of-the-mill shooters, RPGs or racers.

      And, if it's not embryoware that's the subject of desire, the magazine is busy rushing in the next generation of hardware before batch X of the current gen has had time to cool from the fab plant.

      Let's slo
    • What do you think of the new layout, though? It used to be so tranquil, and now there is random splotches of color over everything... Personally I don't think this is an improvement.
  • Interesting find. I also agree that there should me more in-depth coverage, something game reviewers are missing today when they review games.
    • Print magazines have word and page limits they have to meet for printing costs. They'd probably like to talk a lot more about the games and their thoughts in the reviews, but page constraints combined with word limits make it hard to do.

      They've been doing a lot more in terms of features, too, but those pages and words cut on the limits they can then use for reviews and/or previews.

      That's why Internet sites are a good place to look for reviews. Most of us don't have word limits on our reviews, so we ca

  • in-depth coverage of gaming trends and the ideas that games produce, and less obsession with technology

    I don't think more tact could have helped you there. They're paid to obscess over hardware and technology. If they don't, they won't get access to the latest stuff to review and they won't get readers. Gameing journalism isn't about being accurate, or talking about what's good and what isn't. It's about making money.
    • Gameing journalism isn't about being accurate, or talking about what's good and what isn't. It's about making money.

      You could take the word "gaming" out of that sentence, and it would still be true.
      • ...and there would no longer be a spelling error in there... :)

        How sad that we can't trust anybody to be objective, and that we have to debate even the facts.
      • In a lot of respects, "game journalism" is closest to sports writing. Notice they never call it "sports journalism." With few exceptions, it's hard to be too objective, or be too confrontational, when you're covering a team you need to write about every week. It's the same for game journalists -- you can burn bridges with a blistering attack on a company or game, but there are only so many players out there, and if you piss everyone off, no one is going to return your phone calls. This is especially a probl

  • Bring Back Next Generation (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blueZhift ( 652272 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @11:57AM (#11396757) Homepage Journal
    I tend to agree that most of the game magazines are more interested in hype and cheat codes than in the inner working of the games business. Right now, I think EGM is the best in terms of writing and industry coverage, but I really miss Next Generation magazine which was the first games related magazine I ever read regularly. It was a high quality publication that told the inner story of the games industry in addition to coverage of the latest games and hardware. It felt like it was written by adults for adults. Does anyone know if the Japanese games magazines do any better? I think gaming is a bit more respected there as an activity that is okay for adults to engage in. I wonder if the magazines reflect this.
    • I agree. Next Generation was a very good magazine. However, running a magazine is a business, and the subscription numbers just weren't there to bring in the advertising dollars. They tweaked with their formula to grow their audience but this only hastened the decline.

      In spite of the fact that market is bigger (and older) than it was 10 years ago, I *still* doubt the market could support such a magazine. I think the growth in the market has been due largely to the increase of "casual" gamers, vs.
      • The reality is that the game magazine market hasn't grown at the same pace as the game market overall. This is something we dealt with at Next Gen -- the market was growing but the magazine wasn't. Basically that's because all the hardcore gamers were already buying magazines. The new people joining the game market weren't the hardcore, but the more casual gamers. I don't mean to say people who just want to play PC downloadable games, but people who just buy three or four games a year, not twelve or twenty

  • Games are games... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tod_miller ( 792541 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @12:01PM (#11396804) Journal
    I am all for frontier like 9 page reviews for wetting your knickers but:

    All the reviews of Half-Life 2 that I've read go on and on about the gravity gun, the cool physics, the amazing water effects produced by the Source engine, and how good the level design is. Scarcely a word is mentioned about the potency of the urban dystopia so elegantly realized with City-17; about the brooding, ubiquitous Overwatch and the paranoia it foments; about humanity's growing despondency in the face of the Combine's relentless oppression

    Give my jokes about godzilla and nerf gun pictorials over this! :-)

    No, I agree that some games you just wanna take to bed and read with you, like GTA:SA, I woudl like to read a lot about that game, the technology, from a developer point of view.

    So I would read gamasutra. If I ama game head, which i am not, I would read the tripe magazines, like the one your were interviewed for.

    I can't believe you lost the chance to work somewhere with nerf gun fights. Now google is your only chance (until the adsense fraud gets them all hungry again!! :-(

    • Re:Games are games... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ivan256 ( 17499 ) *
      I can't believe you lost the chance to work somewhere with nerf gun fights.

      I have yet to work somewhere where there weren't nerf gun fights. Hell, even at IBM we had nerf gun fights. They get old. If you don't love what you're doing for a living, shooting people with foam rubber isn't going to make your job not suck.
      • I don't know what gamers are like, but when I worked in an IT department with a 50/50 mix of *nix and Windows techies... it took all of a week from the first gun fight before we'd disassembled our guns and overridden every safety feature.

        We had to wrap the foam darts in tape so the pressure wouldn't blow them apart the moment they left the confines of the barrel, and getting hit meant a welt.
    • but there IS something to be said here, ok, it seems like you enjoy the technical aspects of gaming, and that's fine for you and alot of other people

      but people like the author, and myself even, want to know about the story and characters of a game. Gaming has matured to the point where story matters over flashy graphics. Half life 2 created a very distinct mood and feel, the writers were trying to SAY something with that setting. Granted, they weren't saying anything that countless other dystopian authors
      • I agree with you because of one thing: story lines and characters are a part of the technical elements of a game!

        I personally like games which give you a highly controllable environment, I think this defines a game.

        Even manic miner, walking a dude around the place, the controll of the guy, that is what made me play that game.

        So agree except for: ...boobs are interesting to 14 year olds, but not me

        Heck, I liked boobs at 14, and over a decade later, I like them even more!! I wouldn't say they are an aqui
  • Imagine if movie reviews were written like the average game review...

    Ninety percent of the review would be a discussion of the special effects and technical details, with ten percent left for things like plot and characterisation.

    Perhaps when every game has photo-realistic graphics and perfect 3D sound then reviewers will finally have to start looking at the things that actually make the game fun...

    • Re:If movie reviews were written like game reviews (Score:4, Insightful)

      by UWC ( 664779 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @12:22PM (#11397048)
      Or maybe when more games have actually well-realized plot and characterization that serve as more than just a framework around which to wrap the gameplay or, in some cases, the tech demo. This isn't meant as a troll, as I don't mind a crappy story if the game itself is fun. Similarly, I'll sometimes endure repetitive or flawed gameplay if the story or characters are compelling. Some reviewers tailor their reviews to the game being reviewed. If story and characterization play a big part in the game, they are given a decent amount of discussion in a good review. The fact remains that it's still a video game, which implies gameplay is involved somewhere, and the fun derived from the gameplay is often the primary aspect of the game. As for tech, it can play a very important role in establishing an atmosphere, context, or environment to fit the gameplay and story. There are some games that simply don't work as well without impressive technology. The Splinter Cell games come to mind. Without the complex and impressive lighting used in the games, the gameplay does suffer.

      And all of this is not to defend all reviewers. I'm sure there are many that focus excessively or primarily on the technological feats achieved in the games. Impressive, and often necessary, as they may be, you're right that there are other aspects of the games that help determine whether it's actually worth playing.

    • Ever read a review of Matrix Revolutions, that was basically the gist of it. Most neglected to mention the dire story line and pitiful acting!

      That was 90 minutes of my lige I will never get back
    • Imagine if movie reviews were written like the average game review...
      Ninety percent of the review would be a discussion of the special effects and technical details, with ten percent left for things like plot and characterisation.

      To be fair, story is a much larger part of what makes a movie good than a game. Games have been able to get away so long without having good stories because, for many games, they are irrelevant to (and sometimes even get in the way of) gameplay.

      That said, most games have intell

    • Re:If movie reviews were written like game reviews (Score:4, Insightful)

      by johannesg ( 664142 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @02:57PM (#11399214)
      If movie reviews were written like game reviews, they would discuss the interaction you have with the movie at great length ("I sat in the comfortable chair, but the leg space was just a little too short"), have notes on the difficulty level ("the subtitling used too small letters, and there were too many words with more than four syllables"), possibly notes on weapon selection ("the hero uses a single gun throughout the movie"), and something about the online experience ("I couldn't get a connection with other movie-goers, and any attempts at doing so were shushed up").

      But why do people compare movies and games in the first place? They are vastly different experiences that are attempting to do different things. Games should not be like movies and movies should not be like games; a point which is handily proven by the abysmal quality of most attempts at crossing over...

  • He's got it (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This guy is right on. If you know where to look , there's plenty of trenchant, intelligent discussions of music and movies beyond the consumer reports that pass as reviews these days.

    And it's not like there's a shortage of 'feature' gaming stories out there. I'd love to know what Bungie learned between incarnations of Bungie.net, for example, from the Myth days and what's been improved and why. Or more about the indie rock soundtrack to the upcoming Stubbs the Zombie. Are smaller bands now more likely to g

  • Give it a break, guys. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DingerX ( 847589 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @12:22PM (#11397043) Journal
    I got some bad news:
    Print magazines are a business. They try to make money. How do they do it?
    Well, one way is to sell to people who actually buy magazines. Who buys these things? Come on, when was the last time anybody actually bought a video game mag? Okay, here's a theory for you: video game press is like porn. Most people, given a choice, would rather participate in the acts depicted than read about them. So what are the barriers to playing video games and what demographics do they entail?
    A) Arbitrary limits on time. This affects kids above all. Parents limit video game exposure. Sure, some of you will say, so do spouses/significant others/jealous dogs, but reading about video games pisses them off just as much.
    B) Situations where playing video games is not appropriate. Teenagers have school, where the magazine format excels, discretely lining the inside of that boring-ass history book. Adults have workplaces; in the working class case, the magazine might still make sense -- though then one would be better served by bringing something everyone can enjoy, such as pornography. For many office types, vid web sites are not yet off limits.
    C) Where cash is short, web access controlled, and the magazine can be a handy guide to what to expect -- again, the younger crowd excels here.

    The other revenue source is of course advertising. Remember, automotive magazines don't shy away from tarnishing their journalistic integrity; many music mags don't either. So why should it surprise anyone that the bulk of video game magazines are basically shills for big companies? That's their business model! So it ain't called EA Weekly; that doesn't mean they don't make a living by pandering to Electronic Arts.

    Now, on to the rest of it. I don't care about anybody else's "experience" with the game; give me your evaluation. I don't want some masturbatory prose and long narrative about how the dystopic vision of GTA:SA validated a life spent in the parents' basement, cold, with the body never feeling the heat of a woman. I'd like to hear the "Take" on the game; that can include commentary on the structure, the vision, or whatever. But I don't wanna see an egotistic ass hijack the prose.
    Sure, there's a lot to talk about with video games, from the market, to how ideas are realized, to loading them full of Frankfurt School Marxism and making the players fritter away their only real chance to overthrow the oppressive system exposed by the game. So why beat up on perfectly legitimate bits of drivel?


    By the way, the word "impactor" offends me on so many levels, it's making me question my sexual orientation.
    • I think you're going too far with your summation of the "cure" to the problems with gaming journalism. It is certainly possible to write a good review, or even entry-level discussion, of a game without being stupid or obnoxious. I do it semi-often for websites.

      Regularly, I try to write the kind of review I'd like to read, and it is easily possible, even in the 800-word limits mentioned by the source article.

      The article presents a bad counter-example, giving potential alternate topics for a Half Life 2 r

  • Immature magazines for immature adults. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EnronHaliburton2004 ( 815366 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @12:25PM (#11397073) Homepage Journal
    If we want games treated as a hobby that's as much for adults as children, then we should act more adult. Fun, but grown-up.

    Well, that is largely because the majority of the male gaming population acts like 13-year-old boys--

    You've know who they are: lusting after Lara Croft's boobs, gawking at the booth-babes, treating women like shit, spending most of their time inside playing video games munching on chips instead of getting exercise and meeting people. Look back at any ./ conversation where we talk about women and video games, and you'll see plenty of immature posts talking about how the women should shut up, there really isn't a problem, and the incorrect assumption that the big buff, musclebound male-stereotype superhero appeals to the fantasy of the women gamers (wrong!). I keep talking about treatment of women, because that is one of my main measuresments for male maturity.

    And these people probably spend the most money on video games.

    But there is a substantial mature, adult gaming population out there. But chances are they are pretty busy with their lives, careers, kids, and don't spend nearly as much money on games, and don't always have time to read gaming magazines.
    • But there is a substantial mature, adult gaming population out there. But chances are they are pretty busy with their lives, careers, kids, and don't spend nearly as much money on games, and don't always have time to read gaming magazines.

      I have a limit on both the amount of time I can spend gaming and the amount of money I will "invest" in games. I find that a good gaming magazine, such as the UK edition of PC Gamer helps me choose which game I should buy. Sure sometimes they can be the gaming equiavle
    • Meh.

      Male maturity can be measured in many different ways. Off color humor and/or fantasy thoughts about women is probably not the best place to start. All men make comments and all men fantasize. Period. Maturity (and this can be applied to most everything else) is the ability to differentiate between the fantastic and reality.

      That said, I would agree that the guys who rushed out to buy "The Guy Game" or "Panty Raiders" are probably not the most mature guys in the world - but I bet there are a few gem
    • ...treating women like shit... ...Look back at any ./ conversation where we talk about women and video games, and you'll see plenty of immature posts talking about how the women should shut up...

      Where is this anger coming from? I had a quick browse over the last few stories and don't see anything significant. But then I tend to be blind to these sorts of things.

      Could you link to a few posts where posts talk about how women should shut up please.
    • But there is a substantial mature, adult gaming population out there. But chances are they are pretty busy with their lives, careers, kids, and don't spend nearly as much money on games, and don't always have time to read gaming magazines.

      You're right, I am pretty busy with my life, and my game collection isn't all that large ( I buy or am given maybe 5 PS2 games a year, I'm up to maybe 20 titles total now ). But I did have a subscription to a gaming magazine, mainly to keep up on new releases and get rat

    • For a counter perspective, check out 1UP's look at the issue. [1up.com]

      Long story short, the lead designer for The Playboy Mansion and the lead product developer for Bloodrayne are female, and the lead designer for Beyond Good and Evil is male. Many of the people listed in the article cross the line between the traditionally expected viewpoints. Many female designers and artists are comfortable with a larger degree of sexuality in their characters, and many male designers take a more respectful "kid's gloves" app
    • I keep talking about treatment of women, because that is one of my main measuresments for male maturity.
      Whatever man - you and I both know that you "keep talking about the treatment of women" because you are a whimpy sand-in-the-face dude and being "sensitive ponytail guy" is your best hope of getting laid. The true mesurement of male maturity is simply not talking about women in this context at all. When little dudes go on about "bizitches and b00bs," you ignore them and do not participate in the discuss
    • I've oft wished that at the top of the story (once selected) there were running totals of the mod points applied to that story.. anytime the balance was 50%> of all mod points went to funny, I could skip it.

  • OXM (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jasko ( 684642 )
    I now officially duck to avoid the hurled flames.

    However, since we're talking about readability - try Official Xbox Magazine - just pick one up and look at it. It's my only subcription mag since Next Generation went away. I believe at least one OXM editor was from NG (Francesca?). And the quality of the writing is way above average in the gaming press. Almost all of the content is in grammatical English and they're not afraid to say a game is awful in no uncertain terms.

    It probably has to do with the fact
    • It probably has to do with the fact that Xboxen are marketed at a higher aged demographic (I'm 34 today, f'rinstance).

      Ah, I assume that explains DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball does it?

      (Time to do some flame ducking myself, woo-hoo!)
    • Yeah, I agree that Official Xbox Magazine is far above the other magazines I've read. It helps that it is focused on a single platform, so they have more space for in-depth reviews (compared to, say, Electronic Gaming Monthly), in general they have tasteful ads, and there's usually at least one or two places that makes me laugh out loud. Usually in the reviews of the really bad games.
    • Too bad the magazine is written poorly.

      Hell, they stated that there have been no patches for Xbox Live games fer God's sake! Almost every single Live game out there that supports downloadable content has been patched. And that issue was WELL after the first 2 patches were released for Capcom Vs. SNK 2 EO and Unreal Championship, almost a year after.

      One issue I picked up a while back even mentioned "Sony" and "PlayStation 2" as much, if not more than they said the word "Xbox," either trying to put it d

    • I get OXM too, and its not bad. However they do seem to uprate some games. Example Halo 2.
      I also enjoy EGM
  • I was fairly blown away when Imagine(or whatever corp) took this baby off the news stands, i for one waited anxiously for my monthly arrival of this _excellent_ game magazine. since next gen has gone AWOL, all we have to read in the magazine dept. is this REHASHED, kiddie driven, hyper sugar induced twitch mag that has nor an ounce of real writing. I have always had the idea to scan/orc my next gen collection just to show people how pathetic the new magazines are.

  • Let's face it, they're a business. They do X and they do Y. If X generates more business, more companies will jump on the bandwagon and do X, and les and less will do Y (if any remain at all, it becomes a niche market). Eventually, all you can find is X.

    I see a fundamental problem with claiming that gaming media is immature but gamers aren't. If that were true, they wouldn't pay for pretty colours and x-treme 'tude, they would buy more cerebral publications, and eventually smarter gaming mags would become

  • Maybe I'm weird... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Gothic_Walrus ( 692125 ) on Tuesday January 18, 2005 @01:10PM (#11397678) Journal
    ...but I tend not to trust reviews very often.

    I use websites to check for the big points, sure. IGN can tell me if a game will make my computer crash or if it's got so much slowdown that it's going to make my GBA burst into flames.

    The major websites tend to reflect this occasionally childish view, though, and the print magazines can't help me to find a game that I'm interested in if it's a new release or if it's months old and I don't have that issue anymore.

    Talking to my friends does work. I know what their tastes are and whether or not I'll like the game if they do. Hell, I don't even need to talk to my real life friends. Asking people that I've met through message boards can work wonders too. I'd trust the userbase of Cheap Ass Gamer [cheapassgamer.com] more often than I would XPlay or GamePro.

    I wonder why more people don't think of doing it my way instead? Reviews aren't everything, despite what fanboys say. :)

  • I am probably the 20th person to say this, but what sells, is what sells. They are a business, and it is unfortunate that your handcrafted product is not always in demand. Personally I disagree with his statement. Then again the only gaming magazine I regularly read is PC Gamer, and I find that pretty mature (generally).
  • I understand the point he is trying to make here but can you imagine someone trying to do an in depth review on the way Polarium [ign.com] for the Nintendo DS accurately expresses the struggle and oppression that the black squares had to face in this puzzle game? A review normally consists of two things: how it looks and how much fun it is. For the most part I just want to know how much fun a game is. If the majority of reviews say a game is a blast to play I'll try it out. Graphics aren't as much of a concern fo
    • The author wasn't claiming that every game needed to be reframed into some sort of forced socioeconomic parable. You're right that reviews only seem to focus on graphics and playability, but that's the whole point: Games can and should be evaluated on much more than that.

      Is the game trying to make a political statement? How well does it make that statement? Did the game designers give players an immersive plot? Were the characters complex and sympathetic, or one-dimensional and whiny?

      If a game is g
  • I have the dubious honor of having a charter subscription to Nintendo Power. They pretty much only print letters and drawings from the young ones (skip those), and they try to write to a 3rd to 5th grade reading level. However, Nintendo Power does some very adult-attractive things in their publishing:

    1) They're cheap and they give you stuff for subscribing. Usually a hint book or demo disk.
    2) They give you more stuff for subscribing. At least once a year, Nintendo throws music (like E3 Nintendo Orche
    • You kinda missed the article, right? I mean, the author was talking about the lack of reviews with depth and intellectual discourse in current gaming publications. You just made a nice list of examples proving his point.

  • Insert Credit (Score:2, Informative)

    by Wandering Idiot ( 563842 )
    I can't believe no one's mentioned Insert Credit's lengthy series [insertcredit.com] of articles on the state of game journalism yet. Pretty much any point being made in the parent story or the comments here were already made by it. Like the site itself, it may overreach at times, but it's certainly refreshing compared to the norm...

  • A games journo speaks (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hi everyone,

    I hope you don't mind me posting anonymously but I'm sure you'll understand why. Working on a multi-format mag is an eye-opening experience. I too wanted to raise the tone of journalism but have faced an unexpected obstacle: the game publishers themselves.

    Lots of publishers have told me how dissatisfied they are with the current state of game journalism. I've had senior PR people tell me they can usually influence journos if they need to. And I know other journos who have been offered induceme
  • If people want a grownup gaming magazine, then perhaps a magazine is needed which is characterized by what has long been considered to identify a book as being "for grownups".

    No pictures.

    Then it'd have to survive on the quality of the writing, and the thoughts expressed. The lack of screenshots would encourage a focus on deeper issues than graphics of scary monsters and explosions.

    The lack of pictures would let it function on a lower budget, removing the need to whore for the vendors and the kiddies lo
  • I buy them when I notice there's a nice 'classic' on the cover DVD/CD. (Hard to figure out sometimes, what with all the fantasy-military equipment jostling for attention.) This is a great way for me to acquire some previously-expensive gem every now and then without resorting to pira... er, copyright infringement.

    And that's all I ever buy magazines for. There might on occasion be something interesting or informative to read in between the grimacing macho caricatures, the assertions that 1.8GHz is "low end

  • You know, this might be just me...but I personally would be happy to have an immature review if it was an ACTUAL review for once, instead of just an obvious press piece for a new game that the distributor happened to spend a lot of money advertising in the magazine the review appears in.

    I don't use game magazines for anything more than a "new release guide" with pretty pictures and sometimes a demo cd. If I want to REALLY find out what the game is like, I look online in forums and try to make up my own min

Slashdot Top Deals

You know you've landed gear-up when it takes full power to taxi.

Close