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Role Playing (Games)

NYT on Warhammer 60

Posted by Zonk from the who-doesn't-like-skaven? dept.
Spoooon wrote in to mention a New York Times story on Warhammer, old skool table-top wargaming favorite. (registration required) From the article: "In a culture dominated by virtual diversions and mass marketing, Warhammer has acquired an ardent following by being tactile and mysterious, using no advertising at all. Games Workshop, the British company that makes it, has licensed two video-game versions, but it is usually played with three-dimensional figures by opponents who face each other across a real-life table." In related news, registration for GenCon Indy 2005 opened on Monday. Best four days of gaming, and all that.
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NYT on Warhammer More

NYT on Warhammer

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  • Games Workshop (Score:4, Funny)

    by garwil ( 841790 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:26AM (#11688822) Homepage Journal
    Is commonly known as Geek's Workshop in my local area. ;)

  • The problem with WH and 40k (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Bootle ( 816136 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:33AM (#11688868)
    And Games Workshop even admits it, is that 99% of the audience is between 12 and 16. Why do you think there is a new edition every 4 years?

    Realizing that it takes 6 hours to play a game, countless hours to paint armies and make terrain, etc. then only kids who haven't discovered the opposite sex will ever have time to play. Which is quite something considering how well this game must help stunt that discovery...

    I played mostly 40k (2nd edition) and the new editions both look exciting, but I'm not going to hang out with a bunch of home-schooled 14 year olds, even if I had the time.

    Games workshop is in a tough position, with their demographic so narrow. If I was in their position, I wouldn't know of a quick fix to expand market share

    • Re:The problem with WH and 40k (Score:5, Informative)

      by RedHat Rocky ( 94208 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:38AM (#11688906)
      I've been playing since around 2001, started right in the middle of the Game Store Crash (another topic). Games don't take 6 hours to play any more, typically 2 hours if both players are wanting to get done and not sitting around BSing (which is common in friendly games).

      Tournament games typically have a 2 hour time limit, which includes setup/deployment.

      Most important point: I've met exactly one player below the age of 23. Average age is 25-35, on a guess.
      • I played 40k in high school, sold my army after i went to college. I was 16-18 when i played. Now that Ive graduated and have a "real" job, im contemplating getting back into it. Ill still be younger than what you've seen, being only 22 now. Only problem is that there is nobody in this hick town i live in to play.

        • Re:The problem with WH and 40k (Score:4, Informative)

          by RedHat Rocky ( 94208 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:48AM (#11688994)
          I'd recommend drafting your friends (I have the same problem as you, small town with torches and burning crosses for those dirty gamers).

          A new twist to 40k is Combat Patrol. Small points games (400) that are fun and don't take a lot of models. Perfect for getting back in and taking someone with you.

          See more here:
          http://www.patrolclash.org.uk/index.htm
          • Ahhh, thanks, thats just what im looking for. We used to play these sort of games sometimes, but never had an offical name for them or anything. Back in the day, when 40k was only half the afternoon (soul caliber on the DC the other). Now im over at GW's site, and my credit card is bracing for an impact, im sure.
            • I highly recommend the 4th ed box set, mostly for the mini rule book. The $50 main book is good as well, but not for just starting in again. The really cool part is that the mini book has the exact same page numbers as the Big book (it's really just a scaled down version, literally).The Combat Patrol rules are in the Big book, but there's only one small rule change from 40k in 40 minutes (which is still a much better name anyway). At the risk of GW legal coming after me, the only difference is ordance is sp
              • Heh, i also just realised that i live less than a block from a comic/gaming store. I do remember mom n pop type stores being expensive, but im sure paying for shipping from the UK wont be cheap either. I live in a big ass apartment by myself and its kind of become the geek haven for my friends: confortable couch to sit and play xbox on, a nice network setup, and i got a big spare room that would rule to have a table to play 40k on. I remember getting the starter set back in the day (98 maybe?) and then buyi

    • Re:The problem with WH and 40k (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Grab ( 126025 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @01:58PM (#11690547) Homepage
      "Quick fix?" It's GW who deliberately elected to be in that position.

      I played at school and briefly after, from about 13 to about 20. That's the time when it started going all cartoony. To start with it was very much the "dark future" approach - a great gothic atmosphere to all the games. Then when I was about 16-17 it went right downhill. The Orks/Orcs became comic relief, the rules were dumbed down, everything became "heroic", and suddenly it was bright cartoon colours everywhere! Quite simply, GW deliberately aimed for the young-teen market, altering all their games and introducing new figure lines to do so.

      And since they were aiming at kids, they chose not to charge pocket-money prices (like TSR did). No, prices started at £1 a figure (when TSR figures were about 50-60p) and had reached £3 when I jacked out. The intention was clearly to target adults buying these for kids as presents. If you wanted to buy them out of your own money, well, tough.

      It's an interesting comparison against TSR (or whatever they're called today). TSR deliberately kept it adult, and as a result still have a zillion adult roleplayers and games. GW consciously went kiddie, and as a result have cut off all their adult audience, who left to other fantasy games or historical gaming. They made their bed, so they can't bitch about having to lie in it.

      Grab.

  • Warhammer Online (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SteelLynx ( 179569 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:35AM (#11688880)
    It's a shame Warhammer Online [warhammeronline.com] never got finished. The screenshots etc they released looked very close to my image of the world.

  • Tactile dimension hardly unique to Warhammer (Score:5, Interesting)

    by JackBuckley ( 696547 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:37AM (#11688901) Homepage
    TFA contains the following quote:

    "But for these toy army generals, craftsmanship matters as much as tactics, and it is this aspect that most distinguishes Warhammer from fantasy games like Dungeons and Dragons."

    Maybe I'm showing my age, but back when I played D&D (and that would be AD&D, youngsters) we spent a lot of time custom painting lead figures for our 3D tabletop model of the game. I still have a bag of plastic sea creatures and dinosaurs and other yard sale beasties as well that could serve as creatures we didn't have leads for in a pinch, but PCs were always lead and painstakingly painted.

    It's hard to beat a physical representation of the game for settling disputes ("I wasn't near that chest--my character was on the other side of the room spiking that door, remember?") and visualizing what's going on.

    • I'd love to read the article, but I like my soul where it is. RSS link someone?

      At any rate, in Warhammer 40k you're talking a large number of figures to play a game, say 30-50 average. Someone who takes the modeling side seriously spends a lot of time not just painting, but converting or even scratch building models.

      Want to see what I mean, check this:
      http://coolminiornot.com/
    • That's how I got into Warhammer, and other minigames for that matter. Thru ADnD and later other RPGs. Nowadays I paint more than I play RPGs and minigames combined.

      A good site to look at quality paint jobs is this [coolminiornot.com] site. Yes, I'm on there, but I won't volunteer my nick :). I'm not that good... Keep in mind most of these minis are only around 35mm (or 1.5 inch, give or take a few mm) large.
    • Miniatures are still widely used in both AD&D and 3rd Ed D&D, but in addition to painted lead and pewter minis there are more options. A few companies are selling good looking plastic models by the box load. I still prefer pewter minis for my character, but the plastic ones are easier sometimes.

    • The 'new' rules for DnD 3E (and 3.5E) significantly rely on physical location for resolving combat scenarios, and running combats are greatly simplified by using real 3d minis over trying to resolve I wasn't near that chest--my character was on the other side of the room spiking that door, remember? type disputes ad hoc.

  • Incredible... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Master_T ( 836808 )
    284 million dollars in Warhammer sales last year?

    It is amazing how a company can build a following for something that seems so silly to a lot of people. I mean really for me at least (I no longer game, but I used to game a little bit, Rifts mostly and a bit of D&D) gaming was more of a social pastime than a competitive activity. However when I got involved my friends had already spent copious amounts of money on the games. These things have come to represent part of who people are today in this wor

  • You're kidding me (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Ah, yet another example of the fine standards of journalism employed by the modern press.

    Tactile? Mysterious? No advertising???

    Just because GW never ran a television commercial doesn't mean they havn't spent the last 20 years advertising out the wazoo. I'll give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant 'no advertising that I've ever seen'.

    I've seen the way GW operates, both at a retail and corporate level. They're one of the scummiest companies in the gaming industry. If the reporter

    • Re:You're kidding me (Score:4, Informative)

      by RedHat Rocky ( 94208 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:45AM (#11688971)
      GW publishes a magazine, White Dwarf, which is pretty much one giant ad for their stuff. Oh, and the occasional interesting piece for the players.

      But mostly, it's "Look, new cool models released this month!! And see, they beat this other army, wow!".
      • GW publishes a magazine, White Dwarf, which is pretty much one giant ad for their stuff.

        White Dwarf (along with Wizard's/TSR's Dragon magazine) during their earlier years, did actualy focus on other games outside their respective domains, since they were originaly gaming magazines, and not specific game magazines.

        For instance, our local Blood Bowl league commish showed me an old issue of WD he thought I would be interested in. Sure, it had Warhammer and other GW related articles in there (including s
        • White Dwarf origionally wasnt owned by Games Workshop - the magazine was purchased by GM quite late on as a developed RPG magazine (I have issues 1,2 and 8 somewhere of the origional mag), and thats when the content of the magazine changed to GM only.

    • Specifics (Score:5, Informative)

      by Thedalek ( 473015 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:56AM (#11689067)
      For those who might be wondering, "Gosh, what could GW have done that was so bad?" consider the following:

      GW has set up a system whereby hobby-level shops (Mom-n-Pop type independently owned stores) can obtain virtually anything GW makes for 50% retail. That gives the stores a 100% markup, which is good for small stores. So far, so good.

      However, when sales in any geographic region reach a certain saturation level, GW moves in, installing a Games Workshop store, undercutting the retail stores they supplied to by about 25%. If Warhammer was the primary source of income for the local Mom-n-Pop stores (which it probably was, if sales reached the saturation level), the Mom-n-Pop stores die. The local Warhammer market dries up, and the GW store moves out.

      Add to that the fact that, in competitions, the paint job on your army counts more towards winning the tournament than winning a battle, and it's obvious why many are leery of the whole thing.

      Myself, I don't trust any game you need a tape measure to play.

      • Re:Specifics (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Pinkoir ( 666130 )
        Add to that the fact that, in competitions, the paint job on your army counts more towards winning the tournament than winning a battle, and it's obvious why many are leery of the whole thing.

        The reason why sportsmanship and painting count as much as winning is to limit the number of smacktards whose only interest is in wtfpwning everybody they meet. Warhammer is a hobby not an olymic sport and Games Workshop is very careful to keep it that way. Fun is more important than winning in a hobby and people
        • Also, the break down is such that winning the game is still the most important.

          But don't believe me, check for yourself.
          http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/R ules.htm#Ju dging

      • Re:Specifics (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Wylfing ( 144940 )
        However, when sales in any geographic region reach a certain saturation level, GW moves in, installing a Games Workshop store, undercutting the retail stores they supplied to by about 25%. If Warhammer was the primary source of income for the local Mom-n-Pop stores (which it probably was, if sales reached the saturation level), the Mom-n-Pop stores die. The local Warhammer market dries up, and the GW store moves out.

        Riiiight. So Games Workshop's business plan is to make the market for their product disapp

        • Don't be an ass. I've talked to numerous people who have owned/run/worked in games shops, they all tell the same story. GW makes Microsoft look pretty tame, vendor-requirements-wise. A lot of game shops don't bother, the startup costs are way too high and GW wants the store to carry way too much stock.

          There are plenty of instances where a GW store has opened and driven off the other shops in the area, at least from a carrying the merchandise angle.

          GW's business plan is "make money". Cutting out the retail

          • Re:Specifics (Score:1, Funny)

            by Anonymous Coward
            > GW's business plan is "make money"

            Those bastards.

        • Re:Specifics (Score:2, Interesting)

          by sanggye_dorje ( 808467 )
          Proof, specifics? Well I owned a game store for a little over 2 years. We carried GW, but it wasn't our biggest seller. We bought everything from a game distributor, though GW constantly offered us good deals. About 40 miles away, was another game store, who bought from GW, within a year, they (GW) opened a store in the same town as the other store. (Both that town and mine had populations of under 40,000, so not major cities) One of the employees from the non-GW store became a regular and explained it
      • 1. Sell through mom&pop stores for 50% of retail. Make $20 per siege tank. 2. Cannibalize sales by undercutting mom&pop stores, killing market. Make $15 per siege tank, until market dies. 3. ??? 4. Profit!

  • From a Warhammer Fanatic (Score:5, Interesting)

    by discordja ( 612393 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @11:51AM (#11689020)
    I've followed Warhammer for the better part of 10 years now, and have tested or played nearly every game they(Games Workshop) have created. Blood Bowl, Talisman, Fantasy and 40k, Gorkamorka, Gothic .. the list is pretty large.

    The article, I feel, does a remarkable job discussing aspects of the tabletop wargamming industry that makes it so enticing. If you like chess, chances are these productions will probably not fail to interest you. Seems like every week, even after so long, I learn something else, am surprised by the ingenuity of my opponents, think of better strategies to annihilate my adversary. I honestly do not believe you can ever master the game.

    But I think that, for the most part, this exists for all highly tactical games. Warhammer is unique however in that along side their decent rules (which change every few years to keep things fresh and interesting), they have a fantastic creative direction. Their monthly publication White Dwarf is filled not just with rules and battle reports, painting primers and strategies; but with a hefty helping of fluff, fiction, heroes, betrayal, victory and all the things that make a good story.

    Many players, myself included, choose armies often times as a telling of themselves. The never say die dwarves, the emperors finest space marines, the wildly hillarious skaven (all of their war machines are nearly as risky for the skaven as they are for the opponent), the haughty high elves.

    Their lead is simply the best in the industry. It's highly stylized, out of proportion. Orcs wielding high tech weapons in one hand and "Choppas" (mechanical axes) in the other. They have massive vehicles like the Steam Tank and the Land Raider. The game is simply oozing with flavor.

    While I've generally no problem with their no advertising mentality, GW has classicly been a bear to deal with if you are a shop owner. If you sell GW merchandise, they want you to buy everything in 6 blister groupings, they want you to meet a certain dollar ammount per week, so a lot of shops turn to groups like Alliance who buys and bulk and acts as a middle man for small stores that don't put through enough sales to keep up with GWs demands.

    The only other real complaint is that the cost of entry is high. I've had years to collect, have 6 different armies and would estimate my collection well over $4,000 in value. That is not to mention the time expenditure to paint, base and secure all my models. It makes it very hard for a new player to enter the market, so hunting for new blood is a bit of a chore. They have tried more and more however to become the drug pusher (The first one is always free) and that's helped get interest from those that can afford it but would be hesitant otherwise.
  • Ask any Talisman fan (essentially anyone who's played it) what they think of Games Workshop and be prepared for some "colorful metaphors."

    Not only has the product been discontinued, they refuse to let anyone else acquire it to keep it going.

    Yeah, I get all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it too.

    • Well, they're a bit inconsistent in this regard. They released Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to Hogshead to get it back on the market, but as the appearance ( and then rapid disappearance ) of Necromunda showed, they seem averse in the extreme to the idea of ever saying that their old products aren't going to reappear. ( Necromunda was a rehash of a White Dwarf serialised tactical called 'Confrontation' ).

      The one thing that makes me sad about these rereleases is that with every run around the track, the pr

    • Given how long it takes to play out a game of Talisman with 'all' the boards in play, they probably figured there was no market - everyone either has ADD or is already playing a game and keep getting a new ending in the middle.

  • I have been playing GW games for close to 15 years. While 40k does still appeal mainly to teens, the fantasy game Warhammer has more appeal to older folks. Most of my opponents are above 20, with a good 30-40% above 30 (like me!).

    Most of the people in my age range do appreciate the hobby side of the game alot more, with painted armies being our pride and joy. It's mostly teens that run around with unpainted (scoff and point) armies.

    I am going to a tournament in just a few weeks where the entry fee is $

  • Warhammer isn't the only table top wargame (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mutewinter ( 688449 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @01:36PM (#11690240)
    I've been painting miniatures since I was in 2nd grade, but I never managed to actually play any wargames simply because of the cost and money involved. I honestly don't think I'll have the time until I retire.

    If you have any interest in any non-warhammer wargaming take a look at some of these sites:
    www.nirya.be/snv/ttm/
    www.wargamesfoundry .com
    www.wargamesjournal.com

    And no, its not cheap. If you don't have at least $1000 to spend it will be difficult to play anything beyond a skirmish level.
  • "... 99% of the audience is between 12 and 16. Why do you think there is a new edition every 4 years? Realizing that it takes 6 hours to play a game, countless hours to paint armies and make terrain, etc. then only kids who haven't discovered the opposite sex will ever have time to play. Which is quite something considering how well this game must help stunt that discovery..."

    WTH? Letsee... Most of the ppl I play Warhammer with are over 25, Married, well employed, and are some of the mote Sportsmanlike

  • Informative Article (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MonkeyCookie ( 657433 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @01:57PM (#11690536)
    I thought that article was fairly informative and objective. Most of the articles one reads about this type of activity tends to regard the participants as weird dorks who are socially inept, or it condemns such activities as being bad for children.

    It was refreshing to read an article that treats it like a normal hobby.

  • Games Workshop doesn't care about the hobby (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ChaosDiscord ( 4913 ) on Wednesday February 16, 2005 @06:57PM (#11694084) Homepage Journal

    I played Warhammer for several years and a number of their other games (Dungeon Quest, Warhammer Quest, Talisman (multiple editions), Space Hulk) for even longer. Like any company Games Workshop (GW) is a bit of mixed bag, but it was the attitude that irritated me the most.

    I think GW's attitude is best summarized by how their in-house magazine (White Dwarf) describes the hobby. It's not the "wargaming hobby" or perhaps the "gaming hobby". No, it's "the Games Workshop hobby". Feh. Tabletop gaming is a small market. Wargaming (which is most of what GW does these days) is a subset of that. The hobby as a whole has had a rough decade. What the hobby needs is unity, to grow the hobby as a whole, to not be selfish pricks about it. Sure, I wouldn't expect GW to advertise for other products, but to try and control the language to deny the broader hobby is wrong.

    Beyond that, it's a series of minor missteps that irritated me. Sure, release new editions of your games every few years. Release new models to go with them. But to declare that models from previous editions are not allowed in tournaments is bogus. Demanding that the models be genuine Citadel miniatures (Citadel being Games Workshop) is awfully selfish. Building a miniature army is expensive. Expecting customers to exclusively use your product and to buy (and paint!) an entire new army every few years is the wrong attitude. This is the sort of thing that turns many people off to wargaming as a whole.

    • All of what you said is correct. I'd also like to add that when you have to drop $50 to get a lead piece for your army, it is no longer a hobby, but an addiction.

      Personally, I stopped playing when I bought a simple little blister pack that had two left legs in it rendering it impossible to assemble. Would the store take it back or even replace it with an identical one? Nope.

  • And have no clue what it's like now, however, I'm quite surprised advances in computer game technology haven't cut into their market. I'd have thought things like the Total War engine, Combat Mission games etc would have crippled the tabletop gaming scene.
  • I myself use to play Warhammer for all it's worth a pretty good turn base army game. The rules if not were GW's meddling with the recent Chaos infusion would have been fair. But my real gripe is the price of said miniatures. Have you seen the prices of their models? A Capt. Shrike of the Raven Gaurd mini would net around $15.00! I don't know about you guys but as student that's still has plenty of weight to make a big dent on my wallet. For me? the reason why I quit the game was it's ballooning prices of th
  • This year we'll also see a second edition of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game [greenronin.com] by Green Ronin and Black Industries.
    • WHFRP, now that's a proper game. Classic table top and by far the best thing ever to have come out of GW. I was very sad to see Hogshead Publishing (who had the rights to WHFRP) cease business a while back. They published some of the most imaginative and well crafted roleplaying games the Industry has ever seen.

      I await with some curiosity what Green Ronin Press do with it.

      Completely different kettle of fish to 40K etc - which is why GW never seemed to know what to do with it...

      As far as GW the company i

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