Grumpy Gamer Disappointed By New Zelda Footage 122
Ron "the Grumpy Gamer" Gilbert has up an opinion piece discussing his frustration with the new realistic footage of Zelda shown at this year's Game Developer's Conference. He makes some excellent points counter to most opinions I've seen up so far. From the article: "If you look at the trailer, it's filled with creatures, textures and buildings that could be seamlessly exchanged with any other 3D boy-mass game, which in my opinion, is the real failing of 3D games. This crazy quest to attain realism just serves to water everything down until it is all indistinguishable from anything else. An off-white paint that covers the walls of cube-like apartments in cookie-cutter neighborhoods."
On the eight day (Score:4, Funny)
What is this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What is this? (Score:2)
basically he wants to watch cartoons instead of live action. can't blame him too much for that. but hey, don't buy the fucking game then.
Re:What is this? (Score:3, Interesting)
But I'm still holding out hope that maybe they'll do something innovative with the gameplay in this new zelda
I refute you thusly (Score:2)
Re:What is this? (Score:2)
Why not realism? (Score:5, Insightful)
The last Cell shaded effort, although fun to play was kiddied up too much for me. I prefered the ocarina over the windwalker.
Bring it on I say.
Damn he is a grumpy gamer, get over it Ron.
Kiddied up? (Score:4, Insightful)
Link to the Past is my favourite Zelda game, as I think it represents a good balance. All the GBA and GBC (even the original GB Zelda verison) sport the graphics design of LTTP. Only the N64 ones are bad. Unspurisingly, despite me owning several copies (N64 carts + the GC bonus disc versions), they're the only Zelda games I haven't beaten.
I bet you like FF7 more than FF6, too, just because it was 3D.
Re:Kiddied up? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Kiddied up? (Score:2)
The experience system, too, was anti-Zelda. In Zelda II, your character's power comes as a function of experience points earned, which comes up to, essentially, battles fought. In all the other Zeldas, your character becomes more powerful (gains heart containers & goodies) through e
Re:Kiddied up? (Score:2)
Funny that we're talking about Zelda II (Adventure of Link), because Zelda 2K5 gives me the same vibe. A great game molded into something else because it's cool at the time. Zelda II, it's rumored, was transformed into the decent but decidedly non-Zelda RPG-style outing because RPGs were really hot in Japan at the time.
Re:Kiddied up? (Score:2)
I'm really unsure of that, especially since Zelda II has so many other innovations over the RPG mold, like an action-based game system, a real-time spell interface, and character customization. (You can build up to level 8 Attack first if you want.)
It's worth noting, actually, that the original Disk version of Zelda II had some minor, but interesting, changes
Re:Why not realism? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why not realism? (Score:2)
Rob
Re:Why not realism? (Score:2)
I exaggerate to make the point easier to understand. But I'm not exaggerating much.
Rob
It sounds the same (Score:2)
I don't know why but it was distracting to me in WW. I hope they do some overhaulin' to the voices and such.
boo hoo (Score:2, Interesting)
His complaints are more with the inherent nature of realistic games, but Zelda still isn't at that point. It's pretty clear that despite a more realistic look, almost everything in the game is stylized to a degree.
Some people complain just to get attention, the least he could have done is have a decent arguement.
So who exactly is this guy? (Score:1)
Personally though I like the new look. If I post that on my blog can I get some Slashdot Linkage?
Re:So who exactly is this guy? (Score:5, Informative)
From Wikipedia, "Ron Gilbert is a computer game designer and programmer, best known for his work on several classic LucasArts adventure games, including Maniac Mansion and the first two Monkey Island games."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Gilbert
In Case Of Slashdotting... (Score:1)
What the hell is up with the ultra-realistic graphics that make it look like every other 3D game on the market, completely lacking in any true style or sense of art direction. Zelda always seemed to Zig when everyone else was Zagging, thumbing its nose at the the latest trends, yet continuing to rack up huge sales
Re:In Case Of Slashdotting... (Score:1)
Re:In Case Of Slashdotting... (Score:1)
Re:In Case Of Slashdotting... (Score:2)
I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:5, Insightful)
That was what I had said upon viewing the most recent Zelda trailer. And I said pretty much the same thing after seeing the first one. I have no doubt that it will be an amazing game, and I have no doubt that I will very much enjoy it, and I have even less doubt that it will sell very well.
But I still feel like I've lost a very good friend. Zelda was never about giving the vocal fans what they wanted. It was about taking a journey through the very imaginative mind of Shigeru Miyamoto. To remember what it was like to be that child walking through the forest and finding a lake. To be the child who overcomes all perils and finds buried treasure and saves the princess. For me, Wind Waker captured that perfectly and completely.
The new Zelda just seems to be Nintendo's way of showing that it listens to its fans. But that isn't why they became successful in the first place. Nintendo got where they were by hiring designers with vivid imaginations and a natural sense of what was FUN. If Nintendo listened to its fans, Mario would be stealing cars and killing hookers. And I want no part of that.
The current trend in thinking that every video game should carry an M rating needs to stop. I have way more fun playing an E rated Zelda game than a cut and paste M rated FPS.
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Where was I when the vocal fans didn't like the original Zelda, Link'
An Important Note About Zelda II (Score:3, Informative)
It is important to note that Zelda II wasn't developed by Miyamoto [miyamotoshrine.com] but by another team entirely. He just gave them a general idea and let them run with it. Interestingly, he considers Link to the Past as the real sequal to the first.
As for Wind Waker, it boggles my mind the backlash that games receives. I loved it (not as much as OoT, but still a lot). In fact, you remove the cel shading, OoT and TWW are extrem
Re:An Important Note About Zelda II (Score:2)
Ditto. I think Wind Waker needed more baking time, but there seemed to be pressure to meet a release date. Two dungeons were also rumored missing, and the combat could have been tuned much better.
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Do they? People have been predicting the fading of Nintendo for years now, ever since the 'Cube came out, and it still hasn't happened.
Sure, they're not #1 at the moment, but they're certainly not in serious trouble. I think a lot of video game enthusiasts ( or at least the younger ones ) just subscribe to the idea that if you're not #1, then you're dead.
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Not in Japan it doesn't. And here in the US, it's not in 3rd by a very large number, especially considering how the PS2 is selling more than the Xbox and Cube combined.
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Indeed. If you will note, I mentioned that in my post s
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
Those are all good examples, too, but whole unapplicable. Those are all single products, with a definitive style. Zelda is *not* in the same category. There are 10 installments in the Zelda series now, Ninja, ranging over nearly half a dozen different artistic styles. This game will be the 11th, and it, too, introduces a new style. there *is* no definitive "Zelda style"- that's where the fault in your argument lies. Zelda's art *changes*
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
I'm also still confused as to how you're
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
I never thought of Zelda as dark like Resident Evil. But I never thought of it as light hearted and goofy like Kirby either. If a Kirby game was cell shaded, and it didn't stink (I'm looking at you, Kirby's Air Ride!) I'd be all over it. The style is SUPER apropriate for the franchise.
But the Zelda ser
Wait one damned minute! (Score:2)
I'd be willing to bet that, before you actually played WW you were concerned if not angry about the design change from it's predacessor.
So before you jump the gun and trash this game for looking too much like Ocarina Of Time (the best selling Zelda game ever I believe),
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:1)
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
The DS's 3D hardware is rumored to be quite capable of cel shading. I'm thinking, portable games tend to be much more acceptable to that kind of look than console titles, and with Four Swords and Minish Cap it's obvious that Nintendo has not abandoned that look. Could it be that we haven't seen the last cel-shaded 3D Zelda?
Re:I am in 100% agreement with this guy. (Score:2)
Straight Trippin (Score:1)
correction... (Score:1)
I can only speak for myself, but I *liked* Wind Waker's graphics.
Re:correction... (Score:1)
Re:correction... (Score:1)
They tend to switch up Zelda's graphical scheme every game or couple of games (last time we had Ocarina and Majora's Mask, this time we had Wind Waker and part of Four Swords GC). This is nothing new. It was just a bit harder to notice in the 8-bit and 16-bit days.
Re:Straight Trippin (Score:2)
Right, because your little circle-jerk represents the entirety of humanity.
Sorry to break it to you, but many people are disappointed, including some of us who have played every Zelda game in existence.
OK then (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean seriously the graphics are just like they were with adult link (obviously with 7 years tech improvments).
I think the zelda games are some of the best made , and i dont think this new one will disapoint , the main problem here is people have gotten used to the ultra cutsie windwalker type zelda , Ocarina of time had some rather dark graphics in places.Funny to think that i was hearing a great hoohaa about the windwalkers graphics being too cute just a few years back and now were moaning about this being too adult , It looks great and its sure to be a grand game , so lets not judge till we have seen the final trailer(also i think this new trailer looks a bit like the tech demo for the gamecube which i belive was the origional windwalker graphics)
indeed (Score:2)
Silly, cutsie, cell-shaded, etc. graphics are not the only way to give a game unique visual appeal.
Re:indeed (Score:2)
The storys are for the news , these comments are for the opinion , and i am a stickler for unbiased news ( unless in some rare situations)
You can't please everyone all the time (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, guys. Nintendo is held in such high regard in the industry that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. This guy just happens to have a loud mouth and plenty of people around to listen, just like all the people who bitched about Wind Waker looking _not cookie-cutter enough_.
So yeah, this person is unimpressed. Marvelous, really - the most notable event of my young life. I gave a damn about what the naysayers were yapping about while I was enjoying Zelda II, I gave a damn about what the snobs said while I was enjoying Wind Waker, and I'll give a damn about this guy's opinion when I get the chance to evaluate Zelda 2K5 for myself.
And just a note to anybody with a long-term memory worth a damn....I seem to recall sprites from the 16-bit era being interchangeable across pretty much every game with the same perspective angle, too. As in, take any character sprite from any top-down grid-based RPG and stick it in another one, and almost nobody would be able to spot anything anomalous. How many ways does this guy want to see a forest rendered, anyway, to the degree that he WOULD be impressed? These are not artifacts of Zelda being dumbed down to mass appeal, or of 3D technology's introduction of blandness. This new Zelda, like all games worth talking about, is _ART_. Not all groundbreaking art is beautiful, and not all beautiful art breaks new ground.
I look forward to playing this game, because as much as I may have seen trees rendered in similar fashion before, or as much as I may have seen enemies move in almost the same way, damn it, this is a Zelda game from EAD. All signs point to good things, including (IMO) the two trailers released so far.
In other news.. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Oh, you dont know who he is? Well, nevermind, it's news!
Obvious -5 (Score:3, Funny)
And? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And? (Score:1)
Re:And? (Score:2)
That, or they abandon the concept of distinguishing between games entirely. Have you see what's come out of Hollywood lately?
Ultimatley, I'd say that's what the blogger is most afraid of.
I don't mind realism, but... (Score:1)
My gripe however is the lack of consistancy. I don't think they follow up properly on the designs they establish. This new game just doesn't look 'Zelda' too me. The only way I could tell was because of Link's outfit.
What happened to Link's nose btw? It used to be TWO PIXELS LONG. Now he's just a regular manga 'pretty boy'.
Samus used to have brown hair (no varia), but they just had to make her into a blond bimbo to suit th
The soul of fantasy (Score:3, Insightful)
Just 20 years ago there were folks who spent hours engorging fantasy from the source(hint, not a CRT). After playing WoW for 3 weeks I decided to fire up another rogue-like ASCII game...because writing is such a fine art. It's almost as if the greatest part of the old starwars films had nothing to do with visuals at all, or even acting...it had to do with music and writing. The dialogue and screenplay and music were just so masterful and rythmic.
It's strange how things become cheapened with accessability. Maybe it's struggeling that adds to the realism of the experience...being spoonfed fantasy makes it feel so plastic and unreal. Don't get me wrong, I love the new graphics and eye-candy....but the effect of that stuff wears off very quickly. I suppose it's like the love the Linux zealots have for their operating system, it takes a kind of genius to really dig-in and 'know' it. It's not something that can be sold.
"realism" doesn't matter... (Score:4, Interesting)
For reference, I thought A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time were awesome. And I loved Wind Waker's graphical style but hated hated hated the gameplay.
It's about time Nintendo comes up with some interesting new gameplay elements. Fludd (in Super Mario Sunshine) was brilliant, the stupid boat and the boring sea in Wind Waker were not.
Re:"realism" doesn't matter... (Score:2)
A. Wind Waker's Great Sea
B. Ocarina of Time's damnably large, mostly empty Hyrule Field?
Re:"realism" doesn't matter... (Score:2)
You have a point though; the vast and boring Hyrule Field is one of Ocarina of Time's (minor) flaws.
Re:"realism" doesn't matter... (Score:2)
But the Great Sea *does* have things going on in that space, like storms, more monsters than peahats and nighttime stalchildren, umpteen dozen platforms, submarines, ghost ship appearances, sunken treasure, boat battles, etc. And you tend to not spend that much extra time in each of Ocarina's other areas, none of which are as
Monkey Island too (Score:3, Insightful)
They screwed up Monkey Island, and other adventure games similarly. How about sonic the hedgehog? The only 2d-3d success story I can think of is Duke Nukem, which itself has stalled for different reasons.
Re:Monkey Island too (Score:2)
Ron Gilbert is a computer game designer and programmer, best known for his work on several classic LucasArts adventure games, including Maniac Mansion and the first two Monkey Island games.
Wiki [wikipedia.org]
There are good 3d games. Just like there are lousy cookie-cutter 2d games, and horrible books.
Re:Monkey Island too (Score:2)
Nintendo respond immediately (Score:2, Funny)
Let's wait for the game, eh?
Re:Nintendo respond immediately (Score:1)
You can't please everyone. (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, when Nintendo shows a realistic zelda, idiots complain that "it's too realistic!".
Windwaker was great, by the way. It had three problems:
-It was too easy.
-It was too short.
-It had too many maps search in the main quest.
Other than that, it was a great and beautiful game.
Re:You can't please everyone. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:You can't please everyone. (Score:2)
Re:You can't please everyone. (Score:2)
Yeah, it was beautiful.
Anyway, I'm actually kind of getting tired of Zelda dungeons. In Wind Waker I saw them mostly as unwelcome interruptions from the important task of finding all the fun stuff there was to do in the world. I hear that Nintendo's thinking the s
Realistic? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Realistic? (Score:2)
Re:Realistic? (Score:2)
Re:Realistic? (Score:2)
Then again the game's not out, so it's hard to say either way
if he doesn't like it... (Score:3, Insightful)
bah (Score:2)
This could also read: "it's filled with sprites of creatures and buildings that could be seamlessly exchanged with any other 2D boy-mass game", and you can apply the same complaint to 2D games in general.
Why does this guy get a lot of posts on Slashdot when all he does is whine about stupid things?
Re:bah (Score:2)
Oh, I don't know...maybe this [wikipedia.org]?
Maniac Mansion, Monkey Island 1 & 2, Total Annihilation...yeah, all he does is whine, whine, whine. The games industry would have been better off without him.
Wee! (Score:1)
Re:Wee! (Score:1)
Trailer (Score:1)
Play this instead (Score:2)
Nintento just can't win... (Score:3, Insightful)
Though I agree with him for the most part- I really am not interested in attempts at photorealistic games, not until they start to look really nice. So far, I've not seen anything anywhere near this level. Something that looks like the Final Fantasty movie, but maybe a smidge better.
Am I the only one who sees this as the succesor to Ocarina? The graphic style is very similar, although much improved. Many of the same characters, etc. If anything, this seems to be the same Link as lived in the Ocarina time, though that's yet to be seen for sure. But what was so disturbing about the "photorealistic" Ocarina of Time?
No matter what, whatever new Zelda game Nintendo puts out won't be just like the original NES game. Nor will it be like just like Ocarina of Time or a Link to the Past. A lot of folks seem to have a hard time coming to grips with that.
Re: (Score:2)
Not Cel-Shaded = Zelda: Source? (Score:1, Interesting)
You just can't win, can you? (Score:1)
What if Nintendo wants this game to look as realistic as possible? Is that so wrong? They felt like trying out cel-shading (to great success), and now theyr'e going for a different graphical style, namely realism. What's wrong with that? I'm just worried that gameplay is going to be the same except you can fight on a horse this time.
Oh yeah, and by the way, Grumpy Gamer, does the t
This guy is me a couple years ago... (Score:1)
To each his own, I guess.
Realism vs. the Abstract (Score:2)
Not all realistic games have to look the same (Score:2)
Even if Nintendo doesn't manage to give this new Zelda a distinctive art style, though (which I seriously doubt), it'll still look much better than that cel-shaded crap that they foisted on us last time.
Rob
Nintendo's Fate (Score:1)
But here's a thought. What if Nintendo went the way of Atari and Sega and decided to just stick to making high-quality games, and gave up the console business?
Their Game Cube ain't doin' so hot. I don't think the DS will do very well with the PSP hot on its tails. And with the next-gen PS and XB coming out very soon, I don't see Big-N's future getting any brighter.
BUT... what Nintendo has always done VERY well is make excelle
Re:Nintendo's Fate (Score:1)
We shouldn't be worrying about bad graphics... (Score:1)
Young VS Teen (Score:1)
Well... (Score:1)
What I kinda wanted to see (Score:1)
I pictured it like a Link to the Past, but with the new engine (which kinda reminded me of a 2.5D LTTP anyway with the land setup and stuff). My friends thought it would be a good game. The engine had the basics for a decent Zelda game; a good inventory system, character interaction with NPCs. The only thing needed wou
Gameplay and Storyline (Score:1)