Sony Online To Sell Virtual Property 485
OMG! writes "In an open letter to the community John Smedley, the president of Sony Online Entertainment, announced their new service 'the Station Exchange' which will allow players of Everquest II to trade their items for real live money.
Sony Online is the first major player in the MMORPG genre to embrace commercial trading of in-game items." Commentary available from all the usual suspects, including Wired, the Players, Terra Nova, F13, and Grimwell. This would seem to be a total reversal of the policies of certain other MMOGs.
Holy Hell! (Score:5, Interesting)
- This is going to legitimize the activities of companies like IGE [ige.com].
- I hope it's a unprecendented failure, even though I fear it won't be.
- What's next? SOE selling in-game currency?
At least they have the good sense to do this on new, seperate servers. This is going to have far-reaching consequences, they've essentially broken the "fourth wall" of MMORPGs. First-sign-of-the-apocalypse dept, indeed!
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony's gone cash-nuts. Like a Cookie Monster and a bag of Oreos.
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:2)
Now, with no trans fat.
Is this fad happening only in Canada or is the US affected as well?
Oh. and topic.. Sony. selling virtual property. The IRS and SEC will need to monitor our virtual transactions now (US) , the Queen will probably tax them (UK), and Canada will impose a levee on MMORPG monthly access costs.
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:3, Interesting)
We joke, but there are some interesting that could come out of this.
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:4, Funny)
>
>We joke, but there are some interesting that could come out of this.
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:2, Interesting)
People already do stuff like that.
What's probably next is a commodities market or stock market in game.
Imagine buying futures on fictional goods in a world where common sense is overridden by fantasy... oh, right, never mind.
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:2, Insightful)
Why am I suddenly thinking about tulips? And...er...the late '90s.
Maybe this isn't a new thing.
Actually, Sony is the only one who can do it right (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't going to legitimize IGE, this is going to put them out of business, once Sony gets rolling with this.
Re:Actually, Sony is the only one who can do it ri (Score:5, Interesting)
Quite true. Obviously, no 3rd-party seller of in-game resources can survive being undercut by the system administrators, who can accomplish the equivalent of MONTHS of gil-farming with a single command-line.
However, although the short-term effect may seem beneficial, I've always thought that the legitimized (or merely widespread) sale of in-game items would hasten the collapse of any typical MMORPG. This seems to be a desparation move by SOE, whose EQ2 project has been eclipsed by WoW anyhow.
My thesis is that MMORPGs provide a substantial amount of their entertainment in the same way casino gambling does: the players' victories and rewards are quite arbitrarily handed out by the operators, but the cold-blooded arithmetic is hidden behind a screen of glamour and fun. Expose the honest real-dollars cost of an activity to the player, and they'll flee to a more fantastical game.
If a slot machine has a sign on it that each 10 minutes of play loses an average of $2.85, few people will enjoy pulling the lever.
If level 60 epic flame-armor has a "Buy Now" hyperlink which costs $14.31, few people will find it fun to camp a dragon every 3 hours hoping he drops one more of the pieces.
Basic psychological principles [wikipedia.org]: addiction can best be sustained if the game gives out rewards unpredictably. Game items are valued more because it was hard to know when they'd appear. Putting a blatant dollar-sign on the items is the ultimate form of predictabilty. The virtual Skinner box [nickyee.com] falls apart. When the mystique is gone, the players will be too.
PS. The Economist [economist.com] magazine agrees with my prediction, although the article isn't posted for nonsubscriber online reading.
Already here. (Score:3, Informative)
And yeah, whats so bad about it? You can invest either lots of time or money for the same result.
And yeah, some people would rather spend 20$ than 5hours of grinding...
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:3, Informative)
2) People who are serious about the game are already spending the money. People who are casual players pro
Re:Holy Hell! (Score:3, Insightful)
Previously, to do so was in violation of most subscription agreements. There were obstacles: there was a moderate risk of fraud, some players would balk on principle, and most importantly of all, many players would not even think to look for AO credits on ebay.
When the game publisher themselves get into the act, that all changes. The sales become totally legitimized, safe, and well-advertised as part of the in-game GUI. Whatever effects
Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:5, Interesting)
In Second life, the content player create, is owned by the player [lindenlab.com] and not the company
Additionally, they have started tying in real currency [lindenlab.com] to the in game currency. I know this not unique, as Project Entropia [project-entropia.com] does the same thing.
I personally hope this is the way games will go--giving ownership of virtual property to the players and allowing them to use it, sell it, convert for real $$$. I find these environments more enjoyable and rewarding that environments like Everquest [sony.com], where Sony pretty much owns you.
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:3, Informative)
I dislike it when big companies take credit for something that smaller companies have been doing for years. SL allows you to sell the items you build, then trade that game money for real currency. SL and PE allow you to own property that you can resell.
As far as I can tell, all SOE is doi
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:3, Interesting)
If said server error resulted in the loss of, say, the last 12 hours of data ... a lot can change in half a day. How do you know who really lost the +12 Sword of Whoop-Ass, and who's just claiming they did to give their player "Teh Ultimete P0W4R"?
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:4, Insightful)
In SL, though, equipment and items don't play the same role they do in level-based fantasy and science fiction MMORPGs. In most MMORPGs, advancement in level and power is important to enjoy the game, and this advancement requires acquiring items, which are often from rare monsters that are highly contested.
Part of the charm of these games is that in the game world, what I can achieve is determined by my character's behavior in that world, rather than by my real-life situation. This is the very essence of a role-playing game. Bringing real-life money into the game can easily destroy this.
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Seems like it's closer to SecondLife's approach (Score:3, Interesting)
More games should emuluate this philosophy. The new world will be the virtual world, and we don't need to take scarcity with us just because our minds evolved in evironments of sca
Ha! (Score:2)
Re:Ha! (Score:2, Funny)
TOTAL CARP :: For AD&D Buffs (Score:3, Informative)
Race: TOTAL CARP
Class: Ethereal Ninja
S: 12
I: 4
W: 2
D: 11
C: 17
CHR: 2
AC: 10 -1 (wants to be caught)
HP: 340
HD: 18+15
#ATT: 0 (defenseless)
Special: Spreads Influence into Corporate Culture
Re:Ha! (Score:2)
Finally (Score:5, Funny)
For sale (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually if you think about it, this is even better than software fees. Need money for the yearly employee bonus? Just make some pretend stuff out of thin air and sell as needed! Who said magic isn't real?
It's not out of *nothing* (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a very good reason why realistic online games evolve this kind of trading. Never heard of people selling low-number Slashdot IDs? It's the same thing... people place a value on the virtual goods because they represent an investment in time that they cannot afford.
The obvious rules for virtual goods apply if these are to be traded usefully: a realistic supply (i.e. you can't resell the same item more than once), recourse against fraud, and a semi-official currency that allows abstract exchange.
No difference selling game goods than trading Dollars on forex.
Re:It's not out of *nothing* (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony gets a cut. They tax all the transactions. They make money turning virtual items into real items. Some items, yes, players will "work" for, but they are created out of nothing.
When you walk up to an NPC and slay him, he's got some loot on him. Couple coins, a skin, whatever. Where did that NPC come from? His spawn point. But wait, what was there before that...? NOTHING! So from nothing, comes something, comes loot, comes the opportunity to sell the loot for a profit, and be taxed in the process.
So when Sony wants to pump their revenues, they just introduce some no-drop floaty orb thingy that uses a special slot or whatever that *everybody wants* and can be gotten only by combining 8 of some special item that can be had via the station exchange for a dollar. That's $8 to make the whole thing. Some people won't buy all 8, maybe only 4 or 5. Let's say Sony's "nomincal fee" (which they do not specifically disclose; See here: http://stationexchange.station.sony.com/faq.vm ) works out to 25 cents per item. So the buyer spends $1, Sony takes $0.25, the seller gets $0.75. 400,000 people want this floaty orb and don't want to put time into getting the items, so they shell out $8 for them.
$2 on every $8 is 25%. 400,000 people buying 8 individual items for $1.00 each is 3.2 million dollars worth of commerce, of which $800,000 was created from thin air, and goes directly into Sony's pocket.
So you know that yearly bonus thing that your parent post mentioned? Think several hundred thousand dollars might cover it? Yeah, I think so too.
Re:It's not out of *nothing* (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't just taxation though, because Sony controls the supply. The government doesn't control the supply of tobacco or alcohol or land or vehicles. They tax them, but they don't limit or restrict the amount that a given person can buy at once or possess assuming that they are old enough to legally do so.
Sony can make any item they want to make and then they can make it disappear at any time, artificially increasing the item's
Re:It's not out of *nothing* (Score:3, Informative)
Governments control the supply of tobacco and alcohol by requiring licenses for the production and sale of these.
But all of this is beside the point. Governments above all control the supply of money, which is what we trade primarily. Any issuing authority that tries to extract more from a market than it will bear will damage and eventually kill the market.
Governments have tried all the tricks you can imagine to "c
Re:It's not out of *nothing* (Score:3, Insightful)
Governments control the supply of tobacco and alcohol by requiring licenses for the production and sale of these.
Wrong. The government doesn't "control", it "limits" and "influences". The USA government couldn't decide there will be 90 trillion new homes for sale tommorrow.
There is a huge difference between the power wielded in-game by SOE and real-world by a mortal government. The game administrator can spawn or
Re:It's not out of *nothing* (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, once upon a time pearls were lumpy things, v
Did you read TFA? (Score:3, Insightful)
To be clear, all we are doing is facilitating these transactions. We are NOT in the business of selling virtual goods ourselves.
End-quote.
Sony are providing an exchange, exactly like Ebay.
Re:For sale (Score:2)
Printing money (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:+1 Disturbingly Insightful (Score:3, Funny)
Completely ridiculous (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Completely ridiculous (Score:2)
Re:Completely ridiculous (Score:3, Informative)
And I live in Canada for the record.
Makes Cents *groan* (Score:2)
Frankly, I'm surprised more MMO games haven't done something like this already, it seems like a no-brainer to me.
obviously didn't RTFA (Score:3, Interesting)
Could be legal issues (Score:5, Insightful)
- Preventing people from hacking/gaming the system.
- Making sure it's all skill and not chance.
I'll wager that this is a fiasco. Oops, I mean I suspect it will be. No gambling allowed on Slashdot...Re:Could be legal issues (Score:2)
Neocron was a nice step in that direction, and I'm playing it despite some technical shortcomings. But I'm still hoping for a MMORPG-FPS with combat at the quality level of HalfLife 1 or DeusEX.
misunderstanding (Score:2, Informative)
Legal issues aside... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure that they've spent countless hours with their legal team trying to figure out all of the liability issues. For example, what if EQII suddenly goes bust and Sony shuts down the servers? Everything you just paid real dollars for is now non-existent.
Now (Score:2, Interesting)
Live money? (Score:2, Funny)
Is that five pound note moving?
Argh! Get it off me! I can't breathe!
To Be Clear (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically what they are saying is half their time is spent resolving issues from failed transactions so there are support cost savings in putting in an effective forsale/trade system. They won't be selling items themselves, only help facilitate the trade.
Personally I have no trouble with players selling virtual items but I would not support the company doing it. Players should have equal opportunity to get the same items with their monthly fee. But hey, I may be in the minority of people who only want to pay a monthly fee.
Re:To Be Clear (Score:2, Informative)
They have explicitly stated that (for now) new servers will be brought on line where this service will be available. That they will be leaving all of their existing servers - where players have a good deal of items and wealth and are where the 'illegal' t
New Economy (Score:2)
Is it just me, or is this INSANE?
~D
So what happens when they shut down a server (Score:2)
Re:So what happens when they shut down a server (Score:2)
The Death of Everquest II (Score:5, Interesting)
By allowing (condoning, actually) this sort of activity, Sony is ensuring that this game dies a slow and lingering death. Gone are the days when all you needed to excel at Everquest was a good internet connection and a complete lack of a life...now you need the cash, too. People with money will be better equipped than people with no money...those with no money will quit in disgust, and those with money will lose interest after they run up against enough other players with enough money to equip themselves well. Fortunately, those who don't want to participate in this mercenary practice will have the option to play on non-Station Exchange servers...that is, until a majority of the players on that server want the server to be a Station Exchange server...in which case you'll have to find another server...sorry.
It seems that Sony is turning on their major client base...risking alienation and mass defection...so why would Sony embraace such a controversial move?
From The Players:
Re:The Death of Everquest II (Score:2)
This move destroys all game play. And as you say, it will also destroy the game.
Re:The Death of Everquest II (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm... let me rephrase that a bit.
...now you need the time, too. People with free time will be better equipped than people with no time...those with no time will quit in disgust, and those with time will lose interest after they run up against enough other players with enough time to equip themselves well.
So you're prefectly fine with paying for in-game items with time but think paying for them with money is a mortal sin..? Is it by any chance because you have more time than money?
Re:The Death of Everquest II (Score:3, Interesting)
These games are a vacation from real life...an escape. That's pretty much the whole point. Allow Real Life to intrude upon the game in this fashion, and you obviate the appeal.
Re:The Death of Everquest II (Score:4, Insightful)
Everquest isn't just a service like Internet access. If my neighbor is paying more for access, and getting better performance, it doesn't hurt me in any way. But say me and my neighbor enter into a competition against one another (say, three on three basketball). Say we've been competing in this tournament for years, and rather enjoy it.
Then one year, the people running the game make a new rule that says any team can drop $20 and start a game with a five point advantage, with each additional $20 providing an additional 5 point handicap. Given that my neighbor is a multimillionaire and places a high priority on winning, how much fun am I going to have in this year's competition? Why should I even show?
Now imagine that Slashdot started selling special mod points that I could use to mod myself up. In both cases, cash is used as a replacement for talent. But in the latter case, nobody can be sure how my posts keep getting undeservedly high ratings. Hence, it saps trust from the system.
Or imagine that money could buy you more protection under the law, or special legislation that protected your interests... Wait. Nevermind.
The point is, there are some places where you shouldn't be able to pay to tilt the playing field in your favor. I think an RPG like Everquest is probably among them. As a private service, they're entitled to run things that way, but I don't see that offering "various levels of service" would benefit the end users in any way.
You know what's going to happen... (Score:5, Funny)
It makes sense to me to limit or ban this kind of trading/buying. What's the point of earning money and stats, if you can simply buy them?
Stop the press! (Score:5, Funny)
second-hand experience (Score:5, Interesting)
Amazingly, he decided not to bother.
Re:second-hand experience (Score:2, Interesting)
Call me crazy, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Look at Lineage. The Japanese (high incomes, high cost of living, very limited free time) play the game for fun, and buy 'leet gear from loot farmers in China (low incomes, low standard of living, no better way to make money available.) Everybody gets what they want, including SOE, because Lineage outsells all US-based MMORPGs.
Want a game where professional farming doesn't go on
If only I had know about this a week ago (Score:2)
Hrmm (Score:5, Funny)
oh what fun that will be, my character can be a penniless student just like in real life.
Sony Is Smart (Score:5, Insightful)
I didn't RTFA but I'm guessing Sony gets a percentage cut of all items traded on the Station. And even if they don't, it's generating traffic and thus ad revenue.
I mean, WHOA! RIAA! Look at this! Somebody had customers doing illegal things with their property in violation of their license agreement and found a way to make a profit off it instead of sueing their own customers! What a novel friggen concept.
Re:Sony Is Smart (Score:2)
Next (Score:2)
Can 1099 forms and Income Tax be far behind?
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder about the third world. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I wonder about the third world. (Score:3, Interesting)
SOE could completely dress this up as humanitarian aid, set up some "internet cafes" where none exist, siphoning money from the lazy rich countries.
It's already happening in China.
Re:I wonder about the third world. (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, the Internet connection you are currently using could prolly -also- feed a Sudanese family.
Re:Mod parent Flamebait (Score:4, Informative)
Its a good thing
If you're pissed about moderation, there is something called meta-moderation. Perhaps you might do that sometime.
Good, but strange for Sony (Score:5, Insightful)
If people want to give real money to buy imaginary items, they should be able to do so. I wouldn't do it, because I don't see what value I would be getting, but if others feel differently, more power to them.
I am surprised that Sony is doing this, though, because they have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot with propriatery standards and a sometimes control-freakish mentality which makes some of their hardware less desireable than it would otherwise be.
It's almost like someone with a different (non-Sony) mindset approved this decision.
Two issues (Score:5, Insightful)
1) They are accepting responsibility for the value of in-game items. This might not seem like a big deal, but god forbid a server rollback takes a big-ticket item out of your inventory. Or worse, balance adjustments devalue rare/valuable items. How many lawsuits can you imagine will come from people who want to be reimbursed for their "virtual" property's market value? To be sure, the items in question are really just bits on a computer. But really, how different is that from most banking done today? Would you like to be told by your bank that your last direct deposit doesn't exist anymore because they needed to rollback their database?
2) Officially putting a value to in-game items gives new incentive to all those gold and item harvesting shops to work extra hard, not only to eat up as much of those resources as possible, but to hoard and control market fluxuations. If you think spawn camping is bad now, imagine when you're competing with people who are doing it for a living! Yes, it's already happening now, but this will just take it to levels untold of before.
Will there be an SEC to make sure collusion doesn't take place between harvesters and GMs who spawn an extra rare or two for a few bucks?
And how is this different...? (Score:2, Interesting)
Give's a whole new meaning to the phrase Earn Big-Bucks working at home.
Payment method? (Score:2)
I had no idea of just how much work they had to do because of dishonest players.
egalitarian lost (Score:2)
Putting in the time on these games to hack and slash your way to fame and power is no longer the only way to exceed. Now, if you have the real
A Messag From Sincere Busines Partner (Score:5, Funny)
Hello and may all the Gods of Everguest Bless Yuo!
I am writing because I know that yuo are a sincer and honest person who will hep out a preson in need.
My Everquest cahacter MINOLLY WEATHERALL was sadly kilt in a server crash leaving behind an account of $70,000,000 SEVENTY MILLION AMERICN DOLLARS with no claimant accessible.
If you wil assist me with your Everquest cahracter to recover this money I wil give you 15% plus expenses
This is a sincer offer and I know I can trust you with this verry sensitiv informations!
Re:A Messag From Sincere Busines Partner (Score:4, Insightful)
Why don't we have a 'Prophetic' mod?
Desperation (Score:2)
So, if I steal... (Score:2, Funny)
in unrelated news (Score:5, Funny)
golden tee live (a new version of a popular bar-video-golf game) just recently added some new features including paying-for-virtual-property, such as different club-sets or even boxes of golfballs which you DO lose as you hit them into the water.
Makes an odd bit of sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Will it completely put a stop to selling on eBay? Probably not. But for the casual player who can't powergame to get an awesome piece of loot, maybe spending 10 bucks on the Sony Exchange intead of spending 15 bucks worth of online time trying to get it is a good deal.
I also think that if I could pick a single developer out there to try this, especially if it ends up failing miserably at the cost of developer $$$ and reputation (such as it is), I would rather Sony be the ones to give it a go.
This will encourage economic disparity. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not any more. Once again, the old money will reign and trod on the up-and-coming, or the hobbyist player.
Hey, wait a minute. That means eventually the vast majority of people playing will be those who have been economically filtered to the top; those who have, and are willing to pay, lots of money for games. And Sony will have their names, addresses, and the ability to advertise directly to them.
Wow. Sony is fucking brilliant.
---
Students, children, those in countries of economic hardship, don't whine. Your computer COMES with solitaire. For free!
Re:This will encourage economic disparity. (Score:4, Informative)
Wake up call: Players were already doing that, except through eBay and the like. This is just Sony going for the cut on the deal eBay gets.
Re:This will encourage economic disparity. (Score:3, Insightful)
"Real" money isn't real either (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the objections that Sony can create new virtual goods from thin air - isn't this what Microsoft does every time they release a new software package? How is Office "real"?
Regarding the complaint that this system will favour the rich, isn't this already the case in that rich people can afford better PCs - ie: the advantage conferred in FPSs by higher frame rates.
And finally, to those worried about cheating or viruses, or crashes or whatever; since the vast majority of "real" money only exists electronically these days, the exact same issues are faced by banks, and they seem to do OK. It can be done right.
It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. I wonder if they're going to have to make use of the same tools as in the "real" economy, such as controls of the interest rate and so forth.
Another case of RTFA (Score:3)
If nothing else, this might expand the market. Other MMORPG's have been based 100% on real life cash. Sony is offering players the option of playing on servers where items can be bought and sold for cash. I would think that this, in combination with PVP (that Sony is planning to introduce soon), could totally change the market. Think of clan warfare when (potentially) money is on the line?
Personally, I will continue to play on a server that does not allow this because I like to work for my gear. What next, though? Gamblers getting addicted to EQ?
Some thoughts (Score:3, Interesting)
II. I am just waiting for some "virtual nation" to have their GNP exceed that of real nations. "In the news today, the virtual nation of "Eschboxia Livia" has exceeded the GNP of Poland. Much question has arose since their recent purchase of an entire island in the Bahamas as to whether Eschboxia can in deed be called a virtual nation any longer.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You just CANNOT escape the "real world", can yo (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:You just CANNOT escape the "real world", can yo (Score:4, Interesting)
Sony isn't selling items. You buy items from other characters.
Most players play for fun.
With those two in mind, it makes sense that buying/selling would not be too central to the game. You can still use EQ $$ to buy other in game stuff, and most players don't have the real cash to buy themselves to victory. Buying/selling w/ USD (or the Euro, or whatever.) won't necessarily dominate most players lives.
BUT:
There are going to be people who go NUTS over this. You all know the type, it's the player who is convinced that his success in the game is the justification of his otherwise completely unjustifiable high opinion of himself. That guy is going to center his life around getting real money out of EQ, and he stands a pretty good chance of ruining this for everyone.
put more coherently:
Since you have to buy from other players, there shouldn't be an overabundance of high end items for sale. (if you get something cool, you want to use it.) BUT some people are just asses, and this will only give them one more excuse and one more outlet. They will ruin it, not by buying their way to victory, but by (insert unfair way that jerks can acquire high end items) in order to sell them for real $$.
Re:You just CANNOT escape the "real world", can yo (Score:3, Interesting)
If I play a card game with you and you got up to go to the bathroom, you could lay your entire hand down face up on the table and I'd never look. The whole game is an artifical structure with artificial value and balance and it only "works" if you adhere to the rules. Cheating defeats the whole purpose. However,
Re:You just CANNOT escape the "real world", can yo (Score:3, Insightful)
Between 10 and 20 years ago I was into "pen and dice" role playing games big time. As the pre-cursor to MMORPGs, it was great fun escaping from the real life of mortgages & work to go have a few beers with some friends and pretending to be an elf for a while - I even miss RPGs occasionally today.
Your analogy immediately starts out flawed. You had small games with a few friends, not massive worlds full of complete strangers. To be parity, you would've had to allow anybody to play, you would've ha
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Best Items Can't Be Bought (Score:4, Insightful)
This affects Vanguard, too (Score:2)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:4, Interesting)
In the end it's never more complicated than walking up to the baddie and pressing two or three fire-buttons and watching your sword wack away. Why not let people who don't have months to spend on A GAME skip by the boring parts if they want to. i.e. farming for money so you can buy a slightly better weapon.