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Games Entertainment

Perspectives On Thompson's Latest Crusade 85

Posted by Zonk from the wise-words dept.
Game Girl Advance has a much needed perspective piece on Jack Thompson's crusade against the Sims 2. From the article: "Tabling lying to the ESRB and even putting the whole Sims2 points aside (because honestly, I find any of Thompson's arguments against Sims2 to be hollow at best, I just included them to show a trend), isn't it just a lot bit late for anyone to be complaining about the sex issue? I don't mean us complaining, I mean I find it almost laughable at this point that people might think that there's any seventeen year olds who haven't seen worse than Hot Coffee already, and those that are playing GTA:SA need to have their virgin eyes saved. Let's face it: you've already lost that battle. If a kid has the ability or inclination to mod GTA:SA for Hot Coffee, they've probably bit-torrented their fair share of porn by now." My own commentary below.
I just don't get this one. You want to go after GTA? Fine. There's enough ho-slapping and cop-killing in that game to make a politician's career. But the Sims? The raciest bits you find in there are the kind of stuff you see on a reality TV show shown at prime-time on one of the big networks. The Sims has been one of the cornerstones of game sales in recent years. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to play that game today, people that might not have otherwise gotten into video games if not for the easy to understand controls, intriguing gameplay, and the ability to project yourself onto the gamespace.

Blood-sucking remora like Thompson are the biggest dangers to further acceptance of gaming as a healthy passtime. He is taking the specific case of GTA and the ESRB ruling and broadening it out such that a 3rd party mod is affecting perceptions of an excellent game title. I have no doubt in my mind, either, that his righteous fury is entirely motivated by a desire for personal profit and prestige. He is using the prevailing winds of U.S. society to increase his place in the public eye, at the expense of gaming as a hobby and game-making as a profession.

My hope is that the mainstream media, when they pick up this story, will be able to see beyond the smokescreen Thompson has created to the real issues at hand.
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Perspectives On Thompson's Latest Crusade More

Perspectives On Thompson's Latest Crusade

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  • Well, it worked the first time.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Dark Paladin ( 116525 ) * <jhummel.johnhummel@net> on Monday July 25, 2005 @05:32PM (#13160256) Homepage
    I posted this on my wiki site [theapprenticepaladin.com], but figured I'd put my own $0.02 here since it was appropriate. (Besides, I'm not so sure my server could handle the traffic ;) ).

    Whenever I run across people who are against something, I usually ask two important questions:

    What exactly are you looking to protect?

    And

    Do you profit by it?

    For example: people who are against abortion would probably tell you that they're doing it to save human life (in this case, unborn children). Now, whether you agree with that statement or not, that's the point: protecting life.

    People who are against dumping chemicals in our water are usually trying to protect the environment and our health.

    People who are against pornography are usually doing so because they feel, or have studies that show, that pornography can cause other addictive behavior (including increased sexual promiscuity, abuse, etc).

    Again - people can argue one side or the other until they are blue in the face, and since I don't feel like looking like a http://www.smurf.com/homepage.html [smurf.com] Smuff, I'm not going to debate that here. That's what the "discussion" link up at the top is for. (Go ahead - click it if you need to. I'm not going to stop you.)

    But the second question can often be just as important. When Microsoft gives talks about how Free Software Movement is just http://cs.senecac.on.ca/~selmys/quotes.html [senecac.on.ca] communism, you know that if Open Source software usage drops, Microsoft's will rise. When a group promoting nuclear energy comes out against the use of oil and coal, you know they're really saying "Nuclear energy is better - buy it!"

    Some people protest things for good motives - some are less than pure. And if there's anything that protesters soon learn, it's "use what works", over and over again.

    Take the case of Jack Thompson. Not too long ago, there was the "Hot Coffee Scandal". Here's the short version: somebody discovered there was a sex mini-game in "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" (GTA: SA), but no way to play it. In other words, Rockstar shipped a game with unplayable content, feeling that nobody would ever figure out how to turn it on.

    Stupidly, they forgot that unlike the PS2 and Xbox versions, people are more than willing to modify PC versions of the games. In fact, PC modifications of "Grand Theft Auto III" are very popular, including the mod http://www.mtavc.com/ [mtavc.com] "Multi Theft Auto", which modifies the PC version to allow multiplayer use.

    So, when the PC version of "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" hit the shelves, of course people started looking at what they could modify. Next thing you know, the sex game is found, someone releases a mod that turns it on, and to the horror of religious conservatives everywhere, people can watch polygons of a naked woman and a man with no penis having sex.

    Trust me. I've seen the video. It's not that hot.

    Once the news is out, politicians are going nuts. Senator Hillary Clinton wants senate hearings. The ESRB, under major pressure, changes the game's rating from "M" to "AO for Adults Only". Stores pull the game from the shelves. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1441534/p osts [freerepublic.com] Dogs and cats are sleeping together - mass hysteria!

    Chart out the steps you have to get to this content: First you have to buy the game. Since the game is rated "M for Mature", this means that you should have to be at least 17 or older to even purchase the game. Second, you have to willingly install the game on your computer. Third, go online and find the mod. Fourth, install it.

    The number of steps here are very important: it's not like you can just be play

    • Re:Well, it worked the first time.... (Score:4, Informative)

      by macrom ( 537566 ) <macrom75@hotmail.com> on Monday July 25, 2005 @06:04PM (#13160532) Homepage
      Since the game is rated "M for Mature", this means that you should have to be at least 17 or older to even purchase the game

      This is a frequent misconception of the "M" rating, much like there is misunderstanding regarding the "R" rating of movies.

      "M" -- "We don't think you should play this game unless you are at least 17 years of age".
      "AO -- "You can't even purchase this game unless you are at least 18 years of age"

      And its movie parallel :

      "R" -- "We don't think you should see this movie without a parent present unless you are at least 17 years of age."
      "NC-17" -- "You can't even get in the theater unless you are at least 17 years of age."

      Like theaters, some game retailers take their ratings more seriously. There are legal ramifications for selling underage content, so the "AO" and "NC-17" ratings are generally avoided unless you're creating niche content for a niche market. Most companies will completely avoid these ratings since it is too much hassle to police both employees and customers.
      • another, often overlooked, restriction is on the premium theatre. in this, glorious, theatre, everyone must be 21. No babies. No kids. Plus there is a bar. and all the popcorn and soda is part of your ticket. it's the *ONLY* way to go to the movies.
    • Trust me. I've seen the video. It's not that hot.
      So... it would be more accurately titled "Lukewarm Coffee?"
    • And, its parent "The Sims" was the highest selling game ever

      No, it was the highest selling computer game ever.

  • He's obsessed. (Score:2, Funny)

    by grub ( 11606 )

    Thompson is obsessed with sex. I'd love to know what a psychiatrist or psychologist thinks of someone who thinks sex is just So Damn Dirty.
    • The fact is, it's statistically likely that Thompson has dirty fantasies about little children. Not that I'm saying he's ever acted on them, because that would be libel.

  • Thompson can be naked! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Adelbert ( 873575 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @05:44PM (#13160360) Journal
    Rumour has it that, with the right modifications, Jack Thompson can be naked. A penis and exposed ass are both visible when this mod is applied, and the makers of Jack Thompson released him to the world in full knowledge that he can be naked.

    Dear God! Won't somebody please think of the children?

  • archaic view of video games... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by beowulfy ( 897757 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @05:46PM (#13160379) Homepage
    I think that a lot of the chest thumping battle cries by politicians against sexual content in video games comes from the archaic view that video games are something just for kids. It's hard to belive that these people would be so far behind the times as to belive this, but it seems to be true...

  • Another "Blame it on games" cycle (Score:5, Insightful)

    by defkkon ( 712076 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @05:46PM (#13160383)
    I'm a huge gamer, and a big supporter of holding parents accountable for controlling what their kids play. Blame it on the game makers, blame it on the ESRB, blame it on the government - if your little shit-rat beats someone up because of playing GTA, its your fault as a parent.

    Anyway, I digress.

    This will all die out. The Thompson's and Clinton's of the world will soon lose interest, and the gaming industry will be left alone for a while. Then, someone will do something stupid, and blame it on video games. Its all a vicious cycle.

    Sorta like the 90's, when it was all about music. Everyone blamed their kids' bad behaviour on Marilyn Manson, NIN, etc.

    *sigh* I really do get sick of it though...

    • Games were blamed back in the 90's as well.

      Music was fighting that war from the early 90's with things like Prince and 2 Live Crew getting the warning labels before Manson, NIN and co got the wrap in the late 90's.

      The last time anything major happened with games was the Columbine shootings (but every form of media got slapped around by that I think) and before that was the MK/Doom (mostly MK since console games get noticed a lot more than PC games by the pols) controversy and Sen. Lieberman's hearings (wh

    • Re:Another "Blame it on games" cycle (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Psmylie ( 169236 ) * on Monday July 25, 2005 @06:28PM (#13160718) Homepage
      When my nephew was six, he kicked me. I mean, seriously kicked me. He jumped off the couch, and with a karate-movie style scream ("HiiiiYA!") kicked me in the small of the back. Why did he do this? Because he wanted to be one of the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, and they did that kind of crap all the time.
      OK, so now I have a choice... what do I do?

      A: Immediately write an angry letter to the television station and the maker of the show, blaming them for my nephew's actions

      B: Sit my nephew down and explain to him that kicking people hurts them, and that it's not acceptable to hurt other people. And, incidently, if you kick people they may get mad and kick you back.

      I chose option B (after yelling at him more then a little bit, I have to confess... it fricken' hurt, after all), and my nephew never kicked me again. Also, I had a talk with my brother about what happened, and we agreed that, if he can't make the distinction between fantasy violence and real violence, then maybe he shouldn't be watching Power Rangers (which is for the best, really... that show was/is complete crap).

      So, yeah. It's a parent's responsibility to make his/her kid safe for society, not the government's job to make society safe for kids. You'll never be able to clear away all the jagged edges in life, so its better to teach kids to avoid them.

      • How is your nephew now?
      • " and we agreed that, if he can't make the distinction between fantasy violence and real violence, then maybe he shouldn't be watching Power Rangers " Okay, I know your nephew was only little but isn't this the point the anti-violence in games brigade is making? That people playing violent games can't tell the difference between fantasy violence and real violence? Me? I went to see the first MMPR movie with my nephew. I loved that show.
        • I was still in Kindergarten when I imitated Power Rangers, kids stop being that impressionable by the time they start going to elementary school.
        • I know your nephew was only little but isn't this the point the anti-violence in games brigade is making? That people playing violent games can't tell the difference between fantasy violence and real violence?

          While that is, roughly, the point, the problem is the "anti-violence in game brigade" doesn't seem to understand what the above poster is getting at, it's the responsibility of the parents to police what their children are exposed to, not the government. If parents would actually pay attention to w

  • Need a list of Thomson-disapproved games (Score:5, Funny)

    by dbhankins ( 688931 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @05:53PM (#13160444)
    I need a list of game titles that Thompson's gone after, so I can buy them. If Thompson hates it, there must be something right with it. And every little bit helps when it comes to countering Thompson's efforts to destroy mature gaming and shut down the 1st amendment.
  • How come the U.S. is not more like Europe? In any European country, there is not that much emphasis put on sex? Therefore, when something like this or heaven-forbid a woman with her top off happens it doesn't spark controversy, just a smile or smirk from a bloke.
    • I think part of the reason there isn't much controversy in the UK is that GTA:SA was already given an 18 certificate (similar to AO - afaik) and the revelation that there was "sex" in it wouldn't have changed the classification anyway.

      What I think should be considered more telling is that why GTA:SA (and probably a load of other games) didn't get an AO rating in the first place.

      The U.S. isn't like Europe because the society was based upon Puritanical Christian settlers who believed that sex was sinful (ov
    • Too much religion, I think. Every fucking one of these so-called "moral crusaders" is either a jesus freak or some other kind of psychopath. The idea of anybody having a good time drives these people to distraction.

    • Re:We need to be more like our European friends... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kingsmedley ( 796795 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @09:02PM (#13161731)

      In any European country, there is not that much emphasis put on sex

      This is a stereotype, assumed to be true based on incomplete or circumstantial evidence. Truth is, many European nations have laws regarding sexual content in media, ESPECIALLY when it comes to such content being exposed to children. Yes, public nudity may be more socially acceptable in France than, say, Missouri. But what about Poland? Or Ireland? Germany? The UK? To simply say all Europeans accept all sexuality openly, and all Americans repress it, is absurd.

      The difference is a matter of politics and history. Europe was once quite conservative, and many Europeans brought these attitudes to America when they moved here. But during the Great Depression, many ultra conservative governments took power in Europe. After WWII, there was a backlash against the intolerance of the Nazis and the Fascists. But in the USA things went differently. America did not experience the same horrors in the course of the war, just as they did not experience the same repression prior to the war. So Americans did not abandon their social and political intolerance. Over time, this country has learned that some of those values (sexism, racism, etc.) are immoral, and American society has largely discarded them.

      Now back to the issue at hand. Regardless of where you fall on the matter of sexuality and violence in media, essentially the country has accepted the notion that it is up to the parents to decide what their chidren should be exposed to. Because of the vast difference of religious and social values in the USA, the sensitive topics of sex and violence have become the subject of ratings systems - in movies, television, music, and games. So it may seem we are unreasonably upset or sensitive to something like a bare breast. But the truth is, the ratings exist to help the public decide if the content in question falls within their personal levels of tolerance. And it is the same in Europe, and Australia, and Asia, and so on. Any country that prides itself on freedom allows it's people to choose for themselves.

      As others have said before, Jack's yelling and screaming on these issues is merely a reflection of his own desire for prestige, and perhaps even political clout. Sales numbers reflect that in fact, most parents are comfortable that they (and perhaps their children) can handle the content of the games he attacks. So don't use the ranting of loudmouth nutjobs to judge the level of intolerance of a society. Clearly a great number of Americans are comfortable with the content of R rated movies and M rated games - they just aren't making much noise about it.
      • Dear god, this is the most level-headed post I've read in all of these ad-flogging hot coffee draining stories. Where do you get off having an account on /.?

        You've got to get more demagoguery in there - and you should know full well by now that the number one practice of the "tolerant" is intolerance of anyone who disagrees. If you keep making sense and being insightful like this, it might catch on. We can't have that here.
      • To simply say all Europeans accept all sexuality openly, and all Americans repress it, is absurd.

        True, but there is a difference in what is meant by "sexuality" between Europe and the US. In most countries in Europe, sexuality refers to sexual intercourse, not to nudity. In the US, nudity equals sexuality.

        Over time, this country has learned that some of those values (sexism, racism, etc.) are immoral, and American society has largely discarded them.

        You don't say it, but you suggest that this is not


        • Over time, this country has learned that some of those values (sexism, racism, etc.) are immoral, and American society has largely discarded them.
          You don't say it, but you suggest that this is not the case in Europe. And that is false.

          I apologize, that was not my intention. I assumed that my comments about Europe's rejection of the values of the Nazi and Fascist governments of the 1930s and '40s would convey that Europe had turned away from these attitudes sooner than the USA.


          True, but don't under
      • I mostly agree with your post, but having followed the public outcries over this and other nudity incidents, I think Americans are more prude than most Europeans. Look at "Nipplegate" for instance, when Janet Jackson showed a bit of bare breast. When a similar thing happens in Germany (and it has happened), it is not that big news.

        On the other hand, the USA still have strong First Amendmend protection, and most German anti-pornography laws would probably not survive a lawsuit in the USA. So despite the IMH
    • Because, I would gather, of the control schemes of this country. If you program most of the population into thinking this:

      Violence, destruction, killing = OK

      Nudity, creation, sex = BAD! NAUGHTY! EVIL!

      Then it is a thousand times easier into getting your country to enter wars for whatever reasons you might have - and when the ones who are opposed to your war(who are also probably more open to things such as sex or nudity) speak out against you, the majority will say "Barbarians!" or "Heretics!" or "
      • Perhaps it's not "BAD! NAUGHTY! EVIL!" as you have put it, however, I have noticed that using a sawed off shotgun to take out a ton of people, doesn't make that acitivity any more desireable outside the game/movie/book, but that on the sensual side does. Not wanting to emulate either behaivor, it is only reasonable that I would stay away from the one that causes the real world behaivor to be more popular, and not complain about the in game behaivor that does not.
      • Of course the people dont want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
        -- Hermann Goering
    • Because America was founded by puritans.

      Thank you England, thank you very fucking much.
    • well, in England, you might get away with bare breasts in a game, but violence against humans? take a look at the British release of Half Life, the Marines have been turned into "robots". This goes way back too, the original Contra for NES? (up up down down lef- ahem) yeah... robots for both the player character and the enemies.

      would the lesser of the two evils please stand up? hmmm, there seems to be some confusion......
  • This game has a mini game were you have sex with two women (not shown, but heard). There is upper body nudity in numerous places and very extreme violence and yet I have heard not one peep out of Thompson. This just further shows that he is out for his own glory, GTA and sims are both immensely popular while God of War is not nearly as popular.
    • God of War hasn't been out long enough for anyone in the 'mainstream culture' (read: non-gamers) to have heard of it yet. It takes at least 6 to 8 months.
    • Ya, I noticed this too. The game is a ton of fun, but when a friend asked about it, I warned him up front to not let his kid see/play it. Let's face it, you get sequences where you are literally ripping the head off a gorgon, nice and graphic. There's the sex mini-game, and brests galore. In fact, said gorgons have breasts hanging out if my memory is corret, so not only do we get violence, we get to see boobies in the middle of violence. How that game skated under the AO rating, I'm not sure, but I can

  • Somebody explain this to me (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jclast ( 888957 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @06:11PM (#13160582) Homepage
    GTA III: Screw a hooker, kill her, take your money back. Rating: M.

    GTA:SA: Have consentual sex with your girlfriend. Rating: AO.

    What message are we sending here?

    • Re:Somebody explain this to me (Score:4, Funny)

      by LuckyPossum ( 900219 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @06:20PM (#13160645)
      Consensual sex and prostitutes in a game require an extra year of maturing before purchase.
    • GTA III: Screw a hooker, kill her, take your money back. Rating: M.

      Urgh, I'm so sick of hearing this. As games get more and more open and non-linear and allow more self-expression, we should be seeing things like this become possible. Possible - yes the prostitute sex is a "feature" (ie, it was deliberately added), but no one tells the player, or suggests to the player, that they should then go and kill and rob her. That action is made possible by the open nature of the game, and the only way to preven

      • I never said it didn't belong in the game, but I do think it warrants the M or rating. I applaud Rockstar for including it. I thought it was funny, but I won't let my theoretical children play it (until I'm sure they can handle it).

        My point was this: why does committing a crime warrant an M, but acting completely within the law warrant an AO?
        • I never said it didn't belong in the game ... My point was this: why does committing a crime warrant an M, but acting completely within the law warrant an AO?

          I didn't mean to imply you said it didn't belong in the game, I'm just sick of hearing about that solicitation/murder/rob example as some kind of inherent part of the game. As for crimes - there are plenty of them in the game, in the form of missions which must be completed to "win". I'd say those crimes are far better examples for what you're sayi

  • This is reality ,Over there is fantasy.
    They are not the same thing.
    This is Thompson , over there is reality ,
    These things are not the same thing.

    I am Thankful this man does not have access to my imagination , as honestly.. and I'm fairly sure i am not alone here in saying this.. there is a hell of a lot more sexually explicit content in my mind .

    You're protecting no children here , The kids that actively seek this stuff out are clearly already thinking about nudity and sex and are rather curious , its
    • >> Plus added to the fact that this is an honest to
      >> goodness mod , and was not included by the
      >> developers in the original package and had
      >> nothing to do with it , which just serves to
      >> drive this to ludicrous proportions .

      if you are talking about gta:sa - it was not an 'honest to goodness mod' - that's the whole reason for the changed rating by the esrb

      if you are talking about the sim2 - then yes this is indeed a whole seperate mod that must be installed seperately.

      for
    • Violence is natural too, look at how men and animals act without law.
      • yes true ,violence is natural .In fact everything we do is natural .We are after all nothing more than animals with greater intelligence (though not all that we do is particularly intelligent).
        We act just as badly with or without laws , only key difference is the type of justice handed out.

        but sex and violence are different ends of the spectrum , Destructive Vs constructive . Real life i would pick sex on any day of the week , however i much prefer Violence in Game form .

  • Sad thing is.. (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 )
    .. by raising such a ruckus over this, San Andreas will be more popular than ever.

    Sometimes I can't help but think that Rockstar intentionally put that content in there so Kile's Mom would raise a big stink about it and make a bunch of people go "Whoah!" and try out the cheat.
  • Can anyone find the actual text of the press release Thompson sent out? All the articles I find just refer to the gamespot article which just summarizes his press release. If anyone can dig up the actual text, I would like to read it.

  • Reality Check.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Generalisimo Zang ( 805701 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @09:04PM (#13161742)
    I live near San Francisco.

    Within 12 miles of my house, I know of at least 3 bordellos/massage parlors/whorehouses that are pretty much openly run by various Vietnamese criminal gangs, and which have been in continuous operation for over ten years.

    And those are just the ones that I know about. I assume that there have to be hundreds of others that I don't know about.

    Now, if *I* know about these places, just from hearing it on the grapevine, then why is it that the places haven't been discovered and shut down?

    Um... obviously because they pay their protection money to the local authorities on time.

    What these fools who are lambasting the video game industry for its content are *trying* to do, is figure out a way to extort protection money out of legitimate bussinesses.... ..I'm sure the punchline to this whole incident will be when the anti-video-game crusaders set up some sort of "watchdog group" that (for a very hefty fee) will give a seal of approval to games coming out.

    Follow the money. It's probably all about extortion.
    • I'm not sure why anybody feels that these politicians are anti-games. I'm very much a gamer, and I really don't like games like GTA: SA being out on the street.

      As for the Sims, I think the politicians are going for consistancy here. Think about all the posts people wrote about when the Hot Coffee Mod came about. They all said, "Why not the Sims?" So despite the fact that The Sims is not necessarily that bad, they don't want to be hypicritical.

      Again, I want to reiterate that people like me are happy ab
      • It will only temporarily make the game AO as Rockstar is making a Cold Coffee version of GTA:SA already.

        Besides M games aren't supposed to be sold to anyone under 17. Does a year really make all that much of a difference?

        Hot Coffee is a mod that accesses content already in the game, the nudity/sex in mods for the sims are created by the modder. There is no parrelel at all between the two.
        • Sure, it temporarily made GTA rated AO, but with all the publicity, parents will actually hear about all the bad things in it. I feel that some parents are uninformed these days because they are not gamers. Parents are not reading EGM or even Nintendo Power. So sometimes it takes CNN to tell parents that GTA is not a kid's game.

          • So sometimes it takes CNN to tell parents that GTA is not a kid's game.

            I think the game being called Grand Theft Auto speaks volumes more than even the rating could. I mean, we're talking about a game named after a felony here. Can you possibly comprehend how somebody could miss such a correlation? It's grounds for Child Services to take custody of the kids, because someone that clueless is probably past due to accidentally shoot their kid with a nailgun. And then the parents will sue Black&Decker.

  • Off-Topic (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 )
    "My own commentary below."

    Why not post it as a comment, subject to the moderation mechanism, instead of editorializing as part of the article? After all, other than for reviews, you don't seem to allow article submitters to include such commentary.

  • Remora (Score:1)

    by Drey ( 1420 )
    Remoras are not blood-suckers. Perhaps Zonk meant lampreys. Remoras just use their sucker-mouth to latch on a ride to bigger fish, like sharks, and feed on the left-over debris that the big fish didn't eat. In that respect, comparing Mr. Thompson to a remora is accurate, but disrespectful to the remora.

  • Blood-sucking remora like Thompson are the biggest dangers to further acceptance of gaming as a healthy passtime.

    No, he isn't.

    The best trick is to ignore him - the best they can get is 60 minutes of fame before reality kicks in (i.e. the fact that most sales should be done to 17+ - ignoring pecial exceptions such as young developers needing the engine.)

    If necessairy (and only if necessairy), just do minimalistic nudges:
    - Loss to Janet Reno [wikipedia.org], where he makes personal attacks. In particular [tripod.com], he claimed t

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