Microsoft Aims for Hack-Proof 360 134
jondaw writes "The BBC is reporting that "Microsoft plans to make its next generation games console, the Xbox 360, as difficult as possible to hack...There are going to be levels of security in this box that the hacker community has never seen before...I'm sure sooner or later someone will work out how to circumvent security. But the way we have done the design doesn't mean that it will work on somebody else's machine.""
Amount of work in design (Score:5, Interesting)
Claiming something hackproof is like saying a doorlock is tamper-proof. It *can* be opened, it's just how much work are you prepared to do that justifies doing it.
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:5, Informative)
So, they say that a hack may work on one machine, but not another? Article implies that this additional security is added through hardware design. What are they doing, putting a combination lock on the circuitry?
No matter what the new security is, I'm sure it'll me that much more rewarding for the person who first publishes the workaround.
MS has to be careful that the console isn't too easily modifiable, or else they'll get slapped with a lawsuit for enabling people to pirate copyrighted works...
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:2)
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:2)
Working Definition (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe what Microsoft is saying is that when your Xbox 360 becomes a DDOSing zombie, they will replace it for free*.
*postage paid by end user. Please include a stamped, self-addressed return box. 350 dollar processing fee required. Void in New York, California, and anywhere else those linux loving hippies live.
Re:Working Definition (Score:2)
Re:Working Definition (Score:2)
As compared to "bulletproof" where when you die from a bullet penetrating it the manufacturer is obliged to resurrect or reincarnate you at their choice(*).
(*) Some states or other jurisdictions do not allow the substitution of reincarnation for resurrection, so the above vendor option of substitution
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:1)
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:1)
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:3, Insightful)
The numbers don't look too good for Microsoft on this one.
Re:Amount of work in design (Score:2)
Uh, no. It's trivial to set up a decent hash. It can days, if not years, to break it.
The Only Secure System (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Only Secure System (Score:2)
Re:The Only Secure System (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The Only Secure System (Score:2)
This must be... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This must be... (Score:5, Funny)
More like the *triple* dog dare.
In other news... (Score:2)
Just keep it up (Score:5, Funny)
To test this... (Score:2, Interesting)
The saltine group will then comprise of a group of 5 bright individuals, who will be awarded as a whole $200,000 or $40,000 each if they can come up with a hack that would or could end up with a cheap mod-chip solution that could be mass-produced.
They of course have a pre-set deadline, say between now and the actual launch.
Misleading (Score:2, Insightful)
Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
I use it in a 'hacked state' far more often than 'straight'.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
The same hackability is still an attractive feature. Having one GP box that can play DVDs, surf IMD
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Imaginary prick? Everybody knows girls don't play PC games.
Re:Why? (Score:1)
I use it in a 'hacked state' far more often than 'straight'.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Maybe they are. Maybe they think that all these people who spend so much time and energy trying to hack the hardware will go buy an XBox360 for the sheer challenge of it (and probably buy enough games to make it worth it to MS).
Then again, the moon could be a giant Russian Teacake.....
hack-proof != difficult to hack (Score:5, Insightful)
Headline: Microsoft Aims for Hack-Proof 360
I would like to think that slashdot would be a place where people (e.g. editors) would know the difference between these two statements.
Re:hack-proof != difficult to hack (Score:1)
Re:hack-proof != difficult to hack (Score:1)
Re:hack-proof != difficult to hack (Score:2)
Re:hack-proof != difficult to hack (Score:1)
As a wise man once said to me : (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:As a wise man once said to me : (Score:2, Funny)
undo it.
Re:As a wise man once said to me : (Score:2)
Re:As a wise man once said to me : (Score:2, Funny)
Just a though.
That reminds me of a joke from a bad movie (Score:5, Funny)
You can unscrew a lightbulb.
Not everything can be undone.
So I guess the question is, will the XBOX 360 be more like a lightbulb or a pregnant woman?
Re:That reminds me of a joke from a bad movie (Score:2)
Good or bad for sales? (Score:1)
If this does have an effect on sales, it can be looked at in a few ways.
1 - It will result in less sales of hardware. Bad becuase the user base will be less, so less software will be sold.
2 - Modders probably won't buy software anyway... they'll buy the hardware, then pirate games and use the hardware to suit their own needs... And since Microsoft will most likely be losing money for every console sold, they won't make ANY money off
Re:Good or bad for sales? (Score:2)
Re:Good or bad for sales? (Score:2)
Re:Good or bad for sales? (Score:2)
It's so incredibly easy to add a switch to the Gamecube to allow it to play games from other regions that there was no good reason to make a Gamecube mod-chip.
If hardware manufactures didn't use their copy protection hardware to grant them far more rights than copyright law allows, far fewer people would feel the need to modify their hardware. You want to pre
Re:Good or bad for sales? (Score:1)
Well, I think we're probably talking about different things... you're talking about playing imports, which, like you said, was easily done for the GC. But I'm sure the majority of people using mod chips are doing so so they can download and burn games... which never really happened for GC like it did with other systems.
Re:Good or bad for sales? (Score:2)
I'm not convinced of this. There are very few people out there who seriously persue video game piracy on consoles. From what I've seen most people try it out for the geek factor and then don't do much with it. Similarly, you don't really need to mod your Xbox to play pirated games on it. The mod chip was more for using the box as a media center, or other unusual hacks. Everybody I know with a modded PS2 us
a flaw in your logic (Score:1)
Re:a flaw in your logic (Score:1)
Well, that's not exactly a flaw in my logic... that was my #2 point.
2 - Modders probably won't buy software anyway... they'll buy the hardware, then pirate games and use the hardware to suit their own needs... And since Microsoft will most likely be losing money for every console sold, they won't make ANY money off of these users.Embedded in this was the fact that they lose money on the hardware, but make money on the software.
Real security (Score:5, Funny)
The kernel software will, of course, be protected with poor coding that is nigh impossible to navigate.
The box will be made out of the rare metal Adamantium infused with trace particles of kryptonite. Virtully unbreakable, and protected against any Kryptonian hackers.
But the most important security measure of all: Microsoft plans on installing at least half a dozen starving, crazed weasels that will attack anyone who succeeds in opening their boxes.
Re:Real security (Score:2)
Re:Real security (Score:2)
Ok, that's where you lost me.
Re:Real security (Score:2)
Ah, Weird Al Rights Management. However, I think only 360s shipped to Albuquerque will have this "feature".
If I do manage to hack the 360, will I be stuck in a closet with Vanna White, night after night after night after night?
I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think that's the case.
I think many slashdotters are overly confident just because the original Xbox got hacked and we've manage to hack CSS, but you've got to remember a couple of things: Firstly, the original Xbox was the first hardware of that type that Microsoft had created. They put in some protection but it wasn't good enough. I'm sure they have learnt from their mistakes and it will be considerably more difficult to crack this time around. Secondly, with CSS it took quite a long time to get a crack and that was due (IIRC) to a CSS licensor screwing up and leaving the key unprotected in the firmware.
Now, it's possible that Microsoft have screwed up again, but it's by no means a sure thing.
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:1)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Informative)
It wasn't as tempting a target for hackers I guess, but Atari put some checksum encryption in the Atari 7800 that, in effect, stymied 3rd party/homebrew cart makers for YEARS. I think they finally got a handle on it, but still. Smart people are making the security, and while they have tremendous obstacles, they might not always bat
A more recent example...all those people who like homebrews so they have to be petrified of getting their PSP updated to > 1.5
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Insightful)
CSS was broken very quickly by extracting a valid key from a player. Note that this is not a "cheat" - this is a fundamental hole in this sort of DRM. The key is and must be present to play the DVD, and with the key present it can be extracted.
However, DeCSS does not rely on extracting a key - it's an algorithmic attack on CSS itself.
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
And besides, even if a method is found for compromising the 360, if it's sufficiently more difficult to perform than modding a current-generation console (i.e. if you can't just drop a modchip in the box or take it to the corner electronics store and pay $50 labor)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Informative)
DeCSS does not rely on extracting a key - it's an algorithmic attack on CSS itself.
Actually, to be precise, DeCSS is just a reverse-engineered implementation of the decryption algorithm, and must be provided with the correct key. libdvdcss, the open source library widely used to decrypt DVDs, includes not only another (improved) implementation of the decryption algorithm, but also an algorithm that performs a very efficient ciphertext-only attack on a CSS-encrypted DVD title.
DVDJon's original DVD work
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
*runs away as hoards of xbots attack*
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
both ps3 and 360 have their pros and cons. overall they're about equal.
and eventually, the revolution might end up a major player, simply due to the fact it's much cheaper to make, therefore selling more units.
now if they'd stop being bitches and let people have full access to the chips, then more people woul
Maybe they hired Dan Bernstein to write.... (Score:2)
Or maybe they are just blowing hot air.
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:1)
I'm actually very surprised to read that they acknowledge months before the system is even launched that it will probably be hacked. The bit about 'what hacks one system may not hack another' is especially thought provoking.
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Interesting)
True. If Microsoft hadn't released the v1.0 security system bunnie hacked we probably wouldn't have been able to hack v1.1 since we used a lot of knowledge gained from 1.0 in doing so. One of those things was used to get hold of the code for the hash algorithm. Without that we wouldn't have known it was TEA and thus flawed for hashing.
The Gamecube was only hacked since tmbinc found an extreme implemen
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
You still don't count that the manager can be pickpocketed. Someone hacks into MS network, steals the original key used to sign original games, and all you have to do to run your own app is to sign it with the key you've downloaded from the net. There's no way they could allow for new games to show up and work on the console without having some way to sign them - and if you can lay you
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:2)
i wonder how they define the word "commerce".
and since it's not a rental or lease but an outright purchase... they don't have any legal legs to stand on. i mean the kind of legality we had before D.C. became lobbyistville.
find another way to prevent copyright infringement of games. if you deny customers their hardware, then infact the manufacturers are the thieves, in the real sense of the w
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Insightful)
DirecTV had their orginal F cards hacked, then their H cards, then their HU cards. And that's as far as it went. The new P4 and P5 cards are still encrypted and secure. In my mind, it shouldn't be all that hard to intercept calls through the box and figure out how to write to the card -- but then again, more talented hackers than me have tried and failed, so
Re:I think people underestimate the challenge (Score:3, Interesting)
clearly, they've changed the way it works enough that previous avenues for revealing the mechanism will not work.
try something totally new.
DRM is the most flawed cryptology around for the simple reason that it must be viewable by all people who purchase it. and because of that, it must be on the hardware and software in possession of the customer.
hardware is a lot tougher to crack than software simply becau
Microsoft needs a history lesson (Score:1, Informative)
A few months after Oracle 9i was released the hacker community has a dozen or so exploits.
I believe it... (Score:2)
Explain this to me (Score:1)
Doesn't this suggest that the hardware in the systems won't be universal? Isn't it completely mental to have the internal guts of the console differ from unit to unit? Am I misreading this quote?
Re:Explain this to me (Score:2)
Re:Explain this to me (Score:1)
Re:Explain this to me (Score:2)
Hacking never got anyone anywhere, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hacking never got anyone anywhere, right? (Score:2)
They don't want people hacking the Xbox because if people only buy the Xbox, they don't make money. They make money when people buy the games.
Re:Hacking never got anyone anywhere, right? (Score:2)
oh, we don't have laws like that? oh you say we're not required to care how they keep making money?
oh you say we have "consumer protection" laws?
Re:Hacking never got anyone anywhere, right? (Score:1)
Re:Hacking never got anyone anywhere, right? (Score:2)
of course, most of the movies and tv shows they watch are pirate copies, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Was is the green or red wire? (Score:5, Funny)
In a basement in the Midwest...
Hacker1: According to the diagram we are supposed pull the firing pin without shifting it's center of gavity or otherwise the mercury will hit the electrodes on the C4.
Hacker2: Ok. *click* *beep* *beep* *beep* Oh crap! You didn't say anything about a presure plate.
Hacker1: Quick. Cut the wire to the right of the power supply.
Hacker2: Ok. Oh double crap!
Hacker1: What?
Hacker2: There are two wires!
Hacker1: Well just cut one for christ sakes!
Hacker2: Here goes nothing! *clips* *beeping stops* *phew*
Hacker1: Finally... No we put the rom chip here... *xbox starts spewing green smoke*
Hacker2: Oh fark! *coughs* It the posion gas!
Hacker1: *coughs* Does this mean we *coughs* voided the warranty?
Wha? Are they even thinking? (Score:1)
Re:Wha? Are they even thinking? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why on earth doesn't Microsoft want a "piece of the pie"?
Live (Score:2)
what they really mean is... (Score:3, Funny)
can't be done. (Score:3, Funny)
How hack proof does it need to be? (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft is Retarded (tm) (Score:1)
Would beat the living jeepers out of the competition in this market.
MBA mental maroon idjits.
$50 development tool for XPox (Score:2)
They should be selling development tools to anyone with $99.
Microsoft plans to sell a $50 "express edition" of its proprietary Visual C++ compiler [microsoft.com] in conjunction with an effort to raise awareness of Windows gaming [slashdot.org], reversing the burial of Windows gaming under the Xbox marketing blitz.
Hack away ... (Score:1)
Re:Hack away ... (Score:2)
it always makes me laugh to see fanatic adolescent males say things like that.
the cell was engineered from the ground up for DRM and Insidious Computing.
in fact, it might be that the xbox360 is far easier to hack than the ps3.
in either case, both are DRMed up the wazoo.
and don't forget nintendo. they've been DRMing one way or another since the original nes.
This is brilliant! (Score:2)
Since it's hackerproof, I'm sure they can put their money where their mouth is.
Re:Let me be the first to say, (Score:2)
I hope this bastard tanks so hard, and I actually wouldn't mind seeing the PS3 go down with it. These ignorant fucks think they have everything sewn up and that these "next-gen" consoles are so in demand... I can't wait to watch Nintendo and Mario laugh all the way to the bank on this round.
Re:Let me be the first to say, (Score:1)
But no, this is stupid Microsoft we're talking about so let's all laugh (seriously).
Re:Nothing is ever secure (Score:2)
Although, there comes a point where it might be a tad easier to wait in the bushes and jump them when they've just unlocked the house door to get the newspaper.