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Not Just Playing House 83

Posted by Zonk from the kick-ass-chicks dept.
RexDart writes "Tom's Hardware has posted an interview with the founders of PMS Clan, the high-profile, international female gaming group with the mission of 'providing a fun and competitive environment for female gamers in a wide variety of first person shooter' games. They speak out on topics from how to get started and what to play, clan organization, censorship, online harrassment, and the role of female characters in games. Plus, why and how they allow males in their group as well."
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Not Just Playing House More

Not Just Playing House

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  • Interesting article, but... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Cerberus7 ( 66071 ) on Sunday October 09, 2005 @03:45PM (#13752239)
    Somehow, putting a giant picture of blonde twins in that particular pose contributes to taking them seriously? The name is wrong, too. PMS clan? Really. And they want to be taken seriously as gamers and not have men objectify them as women sex objects or point and stare mumbling "wuh-man"? I'm all for women gamers getting into the mix, but for a particular group to jump up and down yelling "I am woman, hear me roar!" makes me take them less seriously.

    A clan of women makes sense. They are a significant minority in online games, and with the way males online tend to act with women, I can see how this kind of supportive group can work. This clan is giving a conflicting image, though. "We're women, we game, don't objectify us" gets a little fuzzy when you're posting Gen13-style art and Charlie's Angels silhouettes as representations of who you are.

    • Re:Interesting article, but... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Meagermanx ( 768421 ) on Sunday October 09, 2005 @04:10PM (#13752391)
      Could it be because they're not actually that great when it comes to gaming? Could it be that, *gasp*, like some other gaming groups and clans of females, they're really just hired models, funded by a corporation, designed to invoke the "oh, HOT!" response in the male crowd?
      Nah. Must be that woman gamers actually DO look like porn stars, that women DO like to cuddle, kiss,and have naked pillow fights with each other, and that, although they discuss how much they hate Lara Croft for being a sex symbol, and want more realistic women in games, they, like all women, love being objectified and wearing tight pink shirts.

      Aaaah. Corporate-sponsored feminism.
      • Nice phrase, I like it! I've suspected such things in the past, as I'm sure many others have. I'm trying to remember the name of the group that first made me say, "WTF is going on, here?!" but it escapes me at the moment. Anyhow, has anybody ever been able to tie them together? Proof of this "corporate-sponsored feminism?"

        • Re:Corporate-sponsored feminism (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Meagermanx ( 768421 ) on Sunday October 09, 2005 @08:06PM (#13753542)
          I think I know who you'e talking about. It was a group of gorgeous, scantily clad, groping each other 'gamer girls'?
          Now, I'm all for the diversification of my chosen sport, but come on, this is just ridiculous.

          I think there are two kinds of female gamers:
          First you have your 'girl gamers'. These are gamers who happen to be women. They like to play games. That's why they're gamers.
          The other kind of female gamer is the 'gamer girl'. These are girls first, gamers second. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the same as macho gamers. They're frat boys, wrestling fans, and football junkees first, gamers second.
          There's nothing wrong with either one, I would just rather play with the women who are more interested in shooting people in the head than discussing how they're objectified and downtrodden by males.

          One last thing: The cliche 'OMG I'm a woman!' article in every gaming magazine and on every gaming site.
          Can you just discuss things like normal people? We get it. You're women. OMG. Stop discussing how dumb women are in games. Stop discussing the 'female point of view'. Just talk about the games like other columnists.
          It's women like this that are alienating themselves from the culture, not the other way around.

          • Personally I refer to myself as a Gamer Grrl - I design and play all sorts of games, have been paid to design games and have edited published games. I don't see why the order of the words are particularly significant.

            • I'm not saying the order of the words is important.
              What I'm saying is that some women are gamers, and some women are girls who enjoy playing games, just like some guys are gamers, and some guys just enjoy playing games.
              I'm saying these are women first, gamers second.
              Some girls, like you, probably, are more hardcore gamers, and are really just interested in the games. Other girls like the "gamer girl" title, but really aren't hardcore.
              Also, these women seem to want to differentiate themselves from the other
              • hehe I cant not game on the 60" tv here, I might die if something happened to that tv... Yea, most females that are all *whatevernickherenad grll at the end* they just ruin it for the good ones no doubt. Im sure alot of them just want to be seen as a girl but are going about it the naive 16 year old way......without thinking before acting when choosing their handles. Well if you really wanted a cheerleader, I would probaly tell you to go find one, Im not her, I would rather rack up some kills than play wit
                • Yes I am evil for my double negatives too.
                • No, I'm not saying I want cheerleaders.
                  All I'm saying is that these women are a little bit sexist. If I started a male-only club, called the Mach Men, and I had ad banners with big freaking hulking dudes, and I had a decidedly blue color scheme on my site, and I told women they could be my cheerleaders, or whatever, I would catch a lot of grief.
                  Equality doesn't mean superiority.
              • I like the people I play with to at least have an inkling that I'm female, because eventually they would find out anyway, and I'd rather get the abuse over and done with. People can put whatever they want in their names, surely?

              • Macgrrl is a nick I've had for over a decade now - and come from the fact that I was the only 'Girl' working in the service department of a Mac Dealer from some years. I was at the Mac workshop, was the only girl - hence, the Mac Girl. The nick stuck.

              • If these women so obsessed with being treated equally, why do they so deliberately differentiate themselves from the pack, and still expect to be treated just like one of the guys?

                Mistake #1 - we don't WANT to be "one of the guys". To suggest that implies that gaming is your territory, and that we need your "permission" to be allowed to play. And that's total bullshit.

                I want to make it clear I'm a girl so that guys can be aware that we do play. Some guys are fine with it, and it quickly becomes just my g
                • So you don't want to be treated 'like one of the guys'?
                  Then you want to be treated, in an online world, like women are treated in our society?
                  Help me clarify here.
                  I'm using 'one of the guys' as it is normally used: To signify equal treatment in a primarily male-dominated activity. Like gaming. No, you don't need anyone's permission to play.
                  Now, you don't want to go into a server and have everybody think "buh-buh-buh-boobies?!? I better A/S/L her.", do you?
                  You want to go into a server and receive the standar
                  • What I want is to join a game and not be immediately singled out for negative treatment. Comments like "Are you really a girl?", "That's gotta be a guy cause girls don't play games", and "Get back in the kitchen, b$#(!" are not unusual, nor is being teamkilled just because of being female. I realize some of these come from guys who normally pull that crap on other guys, so that I am recieving equal treatment from the antisocial fuckhead camp. But I get guys who are fine with other guys that start that cr
                • [i]I want to make it clear I'm a girl so that guys can be aware that we do play.[/i]

                  WE DON'T CARE. Just play the damned game.
                  • If you don't care, then congrats! You're not one of the people we're targetting by being obvious about being female gamers.

                    But then again, I have to wonder - if you really don't care, they why do you care if we're making it a point to let people know we're female?

                    For example, I'm also gay - and I've seen enough of the "I don't care if you're gay, just do it in private" attitude to realize that what's being said doesn't fit the person's actual attitude. If someone didn't care if I was gay, they also wouldn
                    • It's exactly that, but not quite for the reasons you cite.

                      "Look at me! I'm gay! You must respect me! You must accept me!"
                      "Look at me! I'm a gamer girl! Take me seriously! I'm not a girly girl!"

                      It's all pretty much the same thing. People don't go around flaunting their straightness, much like guys in game don't go around flaunting their maleness (not to be confused with macho men/pricks).

                      Some people will care if you're gay. In which case it doesn't help any to be in their face about it. Some won't. In which
                    • People don't go around flaunting their straightness

                      Bull-fucking-shit.

                      People do it ALL THE TIME. Just that unless you're specifically looking for it and thinking about it, you don't even see it, it's so normal and accepted.

                      The couple walking down the street holding hands. The girl showing off her engagement ring. The teenage boy with the "bikini inspector" shirt. The photograph of the wife and kids on some guy's desk at work. And countless other things.

                      Relationships are a BIG part of life. You can't do
                    • The couple walking down the street holding hands. The girl showing off her engagement ring. The teenage boy with the "bikini inspector" shirt. The photograph of the wife and kids on some guy's desk at work. And countless other things.

                      Surely you meant to say the straight couple? Or should the rest of us assume that a "couple" implies 2 straight people?
                      Gay girls can't get engaged? Or even wear rings symbolizing their commitment?
                      Teenage boy? Oh, come on. He might just be gay and in denial.
                      Which way is that pho
      • If you mean every female that games, your wrong. If you mean just a good % I can agree with that. If you can gather up all the females you know that game to game and not game to be 'Ima chick playing the boys games', then I will happiley put up a page on my domain and add myself first. :D Good luck hunting, their are not that many of us (that are good) willing to broadcast it w/o a idiot man assuming we cant back up our skillz.
        • Yo, I don't mean every female that games. See This post. [slashdot.org]
          If you're willing to just game, not because it's trendy, not because it makes you cool, but because you like to game, hell, plug in a controller and hit start.
        • I know a bunch of girls that game just because they like games.

          There's a whole group of us.

          We even have a website [pmsclan.com].

          Imagine that.
          • I know, I can read, I seen the post (unsure if you posted on main page or where unaware of it). I had the 'will make a page on domain' as a joke, sorry you didnt catch that. As for your sarcasm, it was not needed. I think I can manage to > google > girl gamers > find your pms site IMHO, I did look at the site for about 30 minutes, I have no issues with any said member, but personal preference, would not join a clam with PMS in the title, I need not reminded of the crimson, nor need to define myself
      • I love that term. Corporate-sponsored feminism. As for the hired models, well, I can't entirely deny that. GASP. SHOCK HORROR. Because some of our members are Frag Dolls, and we know how the gaming community feels about them... But man, if I were a model, it would have to be for some pretty specialist magazines.
        • Good to see a PMS member contribute to this thread!

          So now I wonder, is there a division in your ranks between the gamers and the "Frag Dolls"? (btw, this is great, I have two new phrases to use thanks to this thread)

          • The Frag Dolls are a small, high-profile, sponsored clan [fragdolls.com]. I wasn't using it as a derogatory remark towards the sort of girls so disparaged in these threads -- for example, the girls who apparently only say they like games to get guys. (Not that I've ever met any girls like that!)

            Some of our members are also Frag Dolls, and they're the scariest, craziest, most hardcore gaming ladies you'll ever meet. Just make sure you're not the wrong end of their SMGs...

            As for any division in our ranks, well; we all
          • No division at all [flickr.com].

            As Mistletoe said, there is overlap between PMS and the Frag Dolls.

            And I've been gaming since I was like 6, I have about a dozen consoles at home, and am playing something just about every single day. And the Dolls and some of the PMS girls make me look like a casual gamer in comparison. It's almost scary how hardcore they are.
      • Could it be because they're not actually that great when it comes to gaming? Could it be that, *gasp*, like some other gaming groups and clans of females, they're really just hired models, funded by a corporation, designed to invoke the "oh, HOT!" response in the male crowd?

        Find yourself a chance to play with some of the top girls in our clan, and say that again. After you've been seriously pwn3d, that is.

        While being great at gaming is not a requirement to get into PMS (though a good attitude and sportsma
        • Here we go with the name-calling.
          Yes, us 'braindead idiots' sure are a pain in the ass to play with. Boy, men sure suck.
          I'm not trying to get any feminists mad or anything, but your clan is sexist.
          Maybe you have some good gamers. I don't know, I've never played anything against you. I do know, however, that this positive media attention is undeserved, as, according to one of the PMS founders in TFA, they usually finish near the middle of most tournaments. That's mediocrity.
          We don't need any of this "Boys VS
          • I never referred to you as a brain-dead idiot... Just that there are a lot of them out there that we have to deal with. So chill out when assuming that everything said is about you personally.

            And considering the amount of people that I've played with after joining PMS, large numbers of people with overall positive attitudes and good personalities, I'd say we're hardly alienating ourselves from gaming culture. Just the opposite - we're a definite part of it, just a part that excludes the "gaming is guys'

        • And BTW, if you're suggesting that the Frag Dolls are just hired models, think again - 3 of them are PMS members (one is the other founder of PMS), and they are far from hired models. I watched them win the GR2 tourney at PAX, for instance.

          Why is it then that you have to submit a picture of yourself as part of an application into the Frag Dolls? I've never seen that requirement for a non-all female clan.

          • The Frag Dolls are also paid representatives of UbiSoft - they are about making appearances and being gaming "personalities". I don't find it surprising that they'd have some level of expectation about appearance, as would many jobs that require regular media exposure/public appearances.

            However, just because Ubi decided to consider appearance, doesn't mean that's ALL they considered. If you dig up old blog entries on the Frag Dolls site, you'll see some descriptions of the process they went through. Demo

            • Fair enough, I guess my initial skepticism of the Frag Dolls was somewhat unfounded. If Ubi were to do an all male clan, I could see them making the same requirement.

              Thanks for the insight!

              • I understand the skepticism. I felt the same way back when I first heard about them - I figured they were just pretty faces to sucker in male gamers. That was before I joined PMS and found out more about the FD in the process.

                And in the meantime, I'm rooting for a friend of mine to be chosen to fill the open spot on the Frag Dolls. :) I figure the fact that she already knows them all and plays with them regularly (and often can beat them) might help her get in, too. :)
      • Funny story related to this: back in the Quake 1 timeframe our clan played vs PMS as a sort of publicity stunt. We had arranged a phone call between the two rooms our teams were playing from to enable some trash talking. At one point we overhear (man's voice): John, what the hell are you doing, defend the base!

        Followed by woman's voice: shut up, the phones!

        I leave it to you what conclusion to draw.
      • Must be that woman gamers actually DO look like porn stars
        *cough* Asia Carrera */cough*
    • It makes me think, though. Are female gamers like female golfers, highly lesbian? Normal women just don't act like this too often.(Compare Sailer's chart in Why Lesbians aren't Gay [Men]. [isteve.com])

      To add more worthless anecdotally supported stereotypes, I have to mention that maybe 1/3rd of the time that I come across a female CS wonk on the web or on Slashdot, that person is actually transgender. (Read through the journal here [slashdot.org] for my latest find.) I read an interesting book by Bailey a while back, in which he
    • "We're women, we game, don't objectify us"

      I read the article, and looked at their webpage. I do not recall anything about them not wanting to be desirable or objectified. Perhaps you came up with that feminist stereotype on your own or I just missed that part. If men can't take women seriously when they (women) look good that is the man's hangup not the woman's.

      Do you take a man more seriously if he is wearing tattered jeans and wrinkled tee-shirt or a business suit?

      I agree that PMS is a corny name for
      • They never explicity said they don't want to be objectified, but part of women's lib, treating women the same as men, being equal and evaluated for ability, is not to be objectified as a sex object.

        I have no problem with a good-looking female gamer. The problem I have is the imagery they use to depict themselves is the same kind of stuff some women rail against as objectifying them. Hence the conflicting message.

        The name is pretty funny, but if their goal is to have women taken seriously in the gaming wor

  • History Tidbit (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shoptroll ( 544006 ) on Sunday October 09, 2005 @05:18PM (#13752783)
    I seem to recall an article in PCGamer well before 2002 about game sites on the net, featuring News Site (Blue's News), MMOs (Ultima Online, Meridian 59), and clan pages. I recall there being a female Quake clan called "Clan PMS" in that article but I don't think these are the same people.

  • A/S/L (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Associate ( 317603 ) on Sunday October 09, 2005 @06:32PM (#13753167) Homepage
    There are a handfull of girl gamers on the server I play on. Some are even hot. But they don't try to exploit the fact that they are female. And I wouldn't have that much respect for them if they did. I have found that they prefer not to be treated different. They want to shoot things up, not answer asl's. Conversely, I've seen male players with seemingly female names greatly disappoint their teammates.

    This is not insightful, it's obvious. Is there a mod for that?
  • Really, how often do you know the gender of the person you're playing with or against?

  • Female players (Score:5, Insightful)

    by spx ( 855431 ) on Sunday October 09, 2005 @10:59PM (#13754203)
    Whoever said: Can you just discuss things like normal people? We get it. You're women. OMG. Stop discussing how dumb women are in games. Stop discussing the 'female point of view'. Just talk about the games like other columnists. It's women like this that are alienating themselves from the culture, not the other way around. I dont think it could have been put much better, and I would never join a clan called PMS anything. Those women also make it *so* much harder for ones like me that just want recognized as a female gamer. No, I dont think most female gamers are lesbians, or transgender, a good % yes, more than 50% I doubt it. I am neither, but when I am online, I hardly use the talk feature, I dont specify Im female b/c thats not the point of the game. And yes, the girlie girls that are all 'ooo look at me' do ruin it for the rest of us. I still am female, I just dont broadcast it (and most never know the differance), I dont go 'O look I killed it' or 'eww thats nasty'. I dont flirt or expect a game area to be a chatroom base. I dont get freaked out if I break a nail when playing, and I dont just say I game to get points with the male gender. I game to game, to kill, & win. Said best: The player with the most frags wins. For the visual learners: http://www.jinx.com/scripts/details.asp?affid=-1&p roductID=201 [jinx.com]
    • i love that shirt

      as a guy i NEVER use the talk feature it breaks the mood of the game for me to hear random background noise as people talk to family members and stuff. UT 2004 TTS is a good tool though, lets you hear what others are typing rather than look down and read.
    • I have that shirt! I imported it specially, because to me it sums up exactly what PMS is all about, and all the comments you make about the people who give female gamers a bad name, well, none of those apply to PMS. I'm entirely serious about this. We don't have the girly-girls who scream whenever they get shot and we don't have women who complain that their hair is being mussed up by the Xbox headset. Well, we might have a couple, but with over 200 members we have representatives of every type of female ga
      • No, you have a clan called PMS. So it doesn't surprise me you struggle to be taken seriously.
        • Wow, that's a delayed reply and a half, and entirely unrelated to what I posted... Care to elucidate?
          • I'm entirely serious about this. We don't have the girly-girls who scream whenever they get shot and we don't have women who complain that their hair is being mussed up by the Xbox headset.

            You're supposed to be a serious clan? That why'd you name yourself over the subject of so much joking? Isn't the quintessential male dismissal of an upset female simply blaming it on PMS?
            • Ah, I see what you mean now. I wasn't quite talking in that context (I meant I was personally serious about what I was writing, rather than meaning to emphasise that we are a serious clan, but hey)... If you can think of a better name then please go ahead. It has to be suitable for a clantag and also mean something useful, it has to reflect the clan's credo and raison d'être, and not be sickly sweet or girly-girlish. Not easy, is it? It stands for Pandora's Maiden Soldiers, by the way, we're not actu
              • Regardless of whatever it officially stands for, you can't seriously tell me that when you thought the clan up, it didn't occur to you that PMS already had a meaning.

                And no, it's not easy to think up something better. For starters, it depends on what's suitable for a clantag.

                Are you limited to 3 or 4 letters? (GRLZ)
                Can the reference be subtle? (Gamers In Real Life)
                Presumptuous? (Goddesses of Game)
                Edgy? (Motherfraggers)
                • I didn't personally think up the clan name, I'm just a lowly division leader ;) I think like so many things it was a good name for a group of friends who came together, and the name has now stuck. I don't think we could actively change it now due to force of habit and reputation, but who knows..

                  As for suitability: Ideally 3 letters long as either an acronym or word, that makes it easy to register consistent gamer tags, gamer names and clan names across games. Subtle is good, though something like "Gamers
              • They decided on "Pandora's Maiden Soldiers"??

                Please, tell me you're kidding!
    • Yep, the true moment of equality between sexes doesn't come when a player gets treated equally despite the fact that she's female - it comes when she can say she's female and nobody really cares. That moment is still far...
  • I agree with most of the comments made that women should stop making a big deal about, "OMG, I'm a girl and I play games, so I should be treated equally. BTW, I'm a girl. Don't treat me like one. I'm a girl." I don't understand how making an all girl clan is supposed to level the playing field. It only calls more attention to the fact that the players are female. I've played many online games, mainly FPS, and I've never encountered any type of harassment for being a girl and I've never been excluded an in
    • Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying.
      I don't see why Clan PMS is turning everything into Boys VS Girls. It doesn't have to be like that. I just wish we could all settle down about this whole thing.

  • ...one of the most popular questions they ask is, "can I join your clan?" One time, after MANY times saying no, I said to one of my friends, "No, but you can be my waterboy!" Imagine my shock when he came back minutes later with a tag that said PMS Waterboy! Next thing I know, every guy was asking to be a "waterboy" and we couldn't keep up.

    Why is this blatant sexism any less disgusting because a female does it. Novelty? Because (some) men *like* the idea of being sexploited?

    Hi, I'm going to have a l33t k

    • Agreed. I'm just trying to figure out why a male organization is accused of ebil gender discrimination, while a female organization is commended for the same thing.

      I don't consider myself a 'guy gamer' and I don't consider my female gaming friends 'girl gamers'. I'm a gamer, and they're gamers. We are people who play games.

      Key word: People.

      As long as you're advertising that you're a female gaming clan, full of 'girl gamers' then you're not interested in any kind of equality. You're just attention
  • I'm starting an all-male clan called Clan TESTICLE. What? You don't like that? All males?! How unbelievably SEXIST!

    </double standards>
  • I can't say i'm suprised at some of the comments on here because i've been around in the gaming world long enough to see this many times before. First of all, there is nothing wrong with having an all-female clan. Get over it. Yes, I thought some of the art on the site was a bit questionable at first too but that is just the style of this specific team and after spending some time on the forums I think it fits the team. And to the person who said this: "Could it be because they're not actually that great w

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